Author Topic: Election Results  (Read 148907 times)

alai

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1800 on: January 10, 2022, 02:06:07 PM »
And the Russia thing, I guess I'll respond to that. Not one person of any substance suggested that Russia turned the election. Just that they attempted to influence it, which they most certainly did.
It's a very hard thing to measure.  The main effect was via online misinformation, and it's not like there was any shortage of that, home-grown.  (Whether of the industrial botfarm sort, or by enthusiast amateurs.)  You'd need to somehow measure the total effect of all that, then some-further-how, disentangle that by source.  Given the narrowness of the result in swing-state margin terms, it's also hard to say it's unlikely to have made a difference.

Of course, interference and collusion aren't at all the same thing.  The (I guess we should say "alleged" and "reported", given The Former Regime's success in somehow managing to keep or spring themselves out of prison concerning it) amount of the latter doesn't seem at all likely to have affected anything.

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I will also say, after looking up some old articles, there was a certain subgroup that was hopeful that electors would be faithless and cast their ballot for Clinton even though their state tallied for Trump. That is in a similar ballpark, and it did include some Democrat members of Congress. They succeeded in flipping seven electors, so they even had more success than their violent right wing counterparts. Some of these electors did face threats of violence, including death threats. I would be comfortable labeling the people involved in that effort as attempting a coup.
The electoral college is just...  weird.  At best, it looks like another powdered-wig and knee-breeches relic.  Increasingly, it looks like another piece of the jigsaw deliberately being instrumentalised to nudge the US from Flawed Democracy towards Post-.  Or as the social-media memes like to put it, "THE US IS NOT A DEMOCRACY!", before scolding anyone disagreeing on their lack of knowledge of "Civics 101", and shrieking at the very idea of Californians thinking their vote might be equal to anyone else's.

But I essentially agree that the fix clearly isn't the faithless elector one.  It's a little different to quantify how "bad" such behaviour is, as clearly the role has evolved historically, and at present the legal situation varies hugely from state to state:  the faithless vote can be illegal, void, both, or neither.  The logical solution is that there should be federal law meaningfully governing federal elections, but that's clearly the last thing that'll happen.

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1801 on: January 12, 2022, 03:49:06 PM »
Ok so Trump supporters in certain states sent in forged info about the results of the elections in their states.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/swing-state-trumpers-forged-letters-145502210.html

A guess fraud is OK as long as it helps your guy.

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1802 on: January 12, 2022, 04:18:01 PM »
But you know, it's not like anybody wanted an insurrection or a coup.

They must be secret Antifa trying to make Trump supporters look bad.

alai

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1803 on: January 12, 2022, 04:30:12 PM »
Totally fine thing to do, or in the alternative, somebody else did the same thing in the past, might do the same thing in the future, or else actually did this, so blame them.

wmLambert

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1804 on: January 12, 2022, 07:43:19 PM »
Ok so Trump supporters in certain states sent in forged info about the results of the elections in their states.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/swing-state-trumpers-forged-letters-145502210.html

A guess fraud is OK as long as it helps your guy.

Are the posters here so vote-scam oriented that they can't understand the law? Of course Maddow made this an issue, but in general - electors are who are voted for in elections. The electors who believed they were elected were not scamming, but presenting their documents the same way opposing elector groups have done for decades. Of course electoral groups who side with the vote-scamming will claim the documents are forgeries. However; if the courts had accepted the standing of the hundreds of legal affidavits from eyewitnesses alleging vote-scamming, then the courts might have some relevance. As it is, not ruling is not the same as validating a free election.

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1805 on: January 12, 2022, 07:48:11 PM »
From what I understand, the electors do not send these documents to the the Federal Gov. The State does. And they are not the State. And the ones in AZ used the State Seal, which is against the law.

I love how the Law and Order WmLambert thinks the law does not apply when his guy looses.  Trump lost AZ. Every audit and recount shows this, even the Cyber Ninja one.

Why won't CyberNinjas turn over the documents? They have spent more money fighting the legal order than they would have spent if they just turned over the documents. What are they trying to hide?

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1806 on: January 12, 2022, 08:30:23 PM »
Ok so Trump supporters in certain states sent in forged info about the results of the elections in their states.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/swing-state-trumpers-forged-letters-145502210.html

A guess fraud is OK as long as it helps your guy.

Are the posters here so vote-scam oriented that they can't understand the law? Of course Maddow made this an issue, but in general - electors are who are voted for in elections. The electors who believed they were elected were not scamming, but presenting their documents the same way opposing elector groups have done for decades. Of course electoral groups who side with the vote-scamming will claim the documents are forgeries. However; if the courts had accepted the standing of the hundreds of legal affidavits from eyewitnesses alleging vote-scamming, then the courts might have some relevance. As it is, not ruling is not the same as validating a free election.

You can't put out a document with the state seal on it when you aren't part of the state government, but I'm sure you have some weird sovereign state argument justifying that or really any action taken to ignore duly elected victors.

alai

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1807 on: January 13, 2022, 12:41:36 PM »
Are the posters here so vote-scam oriented that they can't understand the law?
Some, to be sure.  Just not the ones you evidently have in mind.

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1808 on: January 17, 2022, 09:39:17 AM »
Another audit in a county that Trump won in MI shows no fraud.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/no-evidence-fraud-found-gop-132352318.html

How many more audits do there need to be to show that Trump is lying about fraud?

alai

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1809 on: January 17, 2022, 10:01:49 AM »
It's mathematically impossible for Trump to lie.  If he says something that roughly corresponds with the facts, or with the facts as his supporters would like them to be, he's a genius.  If they don't, he was speaking metaphorically.

rightleft22

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1810 on: January 17, 2022, 11:52:05 AM »
Trump always says what he says, says it like it is... unless he didn't say it.
Don't worry your pretty little head "I am you voice"....

TheDrake

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1811 on: January 17, 2022, 12:54:02 PM »
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? There is not now, and was never any evidence supporting this fantasy about massive secret undetectable voter fraud. The fact that 40% of the country is chanting "Let's go Brandon" and thinks that there were millions of illegal votes spells the end of the Republic. I never thought I'd ever feel nostalgic about the era of George Bush or wish that Romney won.

alai

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1812 on: January 17, 2022, 01:36:55 PM »
The fact that 40% of the country is chanting "Let's go Brandon" and thinks that there were millions of illegal votes spells the end of the Republic.
Oh, it'll still be a Republic. I mean, Iran and China are undeniably factually republics, as well as saying so right in the name.  But like the zookbook meme likes to say, "America is not a democracy."  The "democratic" part is looking more and more tarnished, and might be in the ICU before too long.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1813 on: January 17, 2022, 11:54:55 PM »
I found this article interesting. It's talking about corporate fraud and whether or not auditors should be expected to find it. How much overlap is there to voter fraud? No idea.

https://www.allbusiness.com/why-didnt-the-auditors-find-the-fraud-4967920-1.html

"There’s just one problem: Audits are not designed to detect fraud. The procedures aren’t likely to find fraud. The rules don’t require the auditors to detect fraud. So why on earth are companies and shareholders trying to hold auditors responsible for the bad behavior of employees?

... The company must set up policies and procedures to prevent fraud. The company must properly monitor employees to make sure that transactions are properly authorized and recorded. The company must make sure that fraud isn’t occurring. Management is responsible for oversight of its own employees and processes.

There are times during traditional audits when the auditors have the opportunity to detect fraud. But there are two questions that must be asked:

Could the auditors have detected the fraud?

Should the auditors have detected the fraud?

The first question is fairly straightforward. If you examine the audit procedures objectively, do you see that fraud could have been detected during the audit? Many times, the answer is “no.” That is, the people within the company engaging in fraud did such a good job of covering their misdeeds that the audit procedures had almost no chance of finding the fraud.

Employees become familiar with the audit process and the type and magnitude of transactions that the auditors will typically examine. They go out of their way to cover a fraud by ensuring that the books are doctored in such a way that the auditors won’t ever look at the transactions related to the fraud."

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I'm not going to get all up in arms about the possibility of massive voter fraud, but I'm also not going to berate the people who remain unconvinced. Even more so than in corporations, our voting system isn't well designed for voter fraud prevention or detection after the fact. Just like in corporations if not more so, if there are people engaging in massive voter fraud they have access to the systems, perfect knowledge of them, and know how to cover their tracks, and it doesn't help that the Democrats don't even want voter I.D. and the other reasonable precautions to limit the opportunity for fraud.

I'm not seeing any evidence of massive voter fraud so I'm almost willing to let it go. Now all we need to seal the deal is Democrats going along with some normal voting integrity procedures and I'd be willing to have a little more faith, but instead Pelosi insists that every attempt to make elections more secure actually does the opposite and undermines our entire democratic foundation. That's just suspect.

alai

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1814 on: January 18, 2022, 04:37:40 AM »
I'm not seeing any evidence of massive voter fraud so I'm almost willing to let it go. Now all we need to seal the deal is Democrats going along with some normal voting integrity procedures and I'd be willing to have a little more faith, but instead Pelosi insists that every attempt to make elections more secure actually does the opposite and undermines our entire democratic foundation. That's just suspect.
So, there's no actual fraud, but Democrats should meet you half way on "normal" levels of voter suppression, otherwise it's "suspect".  Depends on the Overton Window of your suspicions, evidently.

Wayward Son

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1815 on: January 18, 2022, 03:53:03 PM »
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Now all we need to seal the deal is Democrats going along with some normal voting integrity procedures and I'd be willing to have a little more faith, but instead Pelosi insists that every attempt to make elections more secure actually does the opposite and undermines our entire democratic foundation. That's just suspect.

OK, cherry, which of these points do you consider "normal voting integrity procedures," and which "undermines our entire democratic foundation?"

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(I)n case the bill actually becomes law, here's what's in it:

o A ban on partisan gerrymanders
o Limits on states' ability to remove voting officials
o Limits on what poll watchers can and cannot do
o Voting systems must leave a paper trail
o Mandatory online and same-day voter registration
o Automatic registration of people upon interactions with state governments (e.g., the DMV)
o Minimum of 15 days of early voting
o Universal absentee balloting
o Widely available drop boxes
o Ballots postmarked by Election Day, and received within 7 days, would be valid
o Debit cards, utility bills, bank statements, and sworn/witnessed statements would count as voter ID
o Felons regain voting rights upon release from prison
o No prohibitions on giving food/water to people waiting to vote
o Greater (though somewhat unspecific) rights to sue for voter discrimination
o Greater disclosure of "dark money" sources
o Special protections for Native American voters
o Election Day made into a federal holiday in presidential and midterm years
o Fixing the Voting Rights Act of 1965, per Chief Justice John Roberts' instructions, to once again require that states and localities with a history of discrimination get pre-clearance for changes to voting rules

alai

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1816 on: January 18, 2022, 04:46:51 PM »
o No prohibitions on giving food/water to people waiting to vote
I mean, that one's just outrageous.  Obviously when James Madison talked about protecting the opulent minority, that constitutes a binding precedent, wherein the Founding Fathers[sic] precluded the possibility of people in urban districts with completely coincidentally longer queues to vote having their basic bodily needs in any way subvented, over and above their personal private means to take care of themselves.  Poor people?  At the polls?  There's your steal right there!

msquared

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1817 on: January 18, 2022, 04:56:06 PM »
Remember Trump even said that if everyone could vote, then the Republicans would never win again. I think Rand Paul said the same thing.  It is not about winning the war of ideas, it is about only letting your people vote.

NobleHunter

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1818 on: January 18, 2022, 07:47:27 PM »
The problem is that the conservatives don't have any ideas besides cutting taxes and spending money on the military. It's hard to get elected on the platform of driving up the national debt with nothing productive to show for it.

alai

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Re: Election Results
« Reply #1819 on: January 18, 2022, 08:48:09 PM »
Conservatives have lots of ideas!  Admittedly they're all terrible, and for each of them you can even find other flavours of self-described conservative that think so, too.