The Jan 6 Commission

[msquared]

So the Republicans, some of who were partly responsible for the Jan 6 insurrection, wanted to negotiate a down the middle split for the commission. The Dems gave in, gave the Republicans all they asked for, and now the Republicans in the Senate are going to vote against the group they said they wanted.

What a bunch of spineless cowards.   Of course they know that if the commission were to really do its job, they would look like the traitors they are.

This is not the Party I grew up with. This group is a bunch of Trump cowards.

[TheDrake]

Please tell me there's a place where you can by a qanon shaman hat and mail it to those Senators. We need to investigate Benghazi 8 times, but no need for an attack on the capitol.

[TheDeamon]

 

[msquared]

Elequent as always TheDemon. 

[msquared]

Well the Party of Trump has blocked the forming of the Jan 6 Commission, even though the Dems give in to all of the Republicans demands.

Of course they do not want an investigation.  They were either actually involved or complicit (many of them).  And they still are with the spreading of the big lie.

Bunch of gutless spineless cowards.

[Crunch]

Being the senate, I’m surprised Heels Up Harris didn’t “work it” for a few political favors and get this deal done. Historically, she’s been pretty adept at that sort of thing.

[Crunch]

Please tell me there's a place where you can by a qanon shaman hat and mail it to those Senators.

This will be my halloween costume this year.

[msquared]

Crunch that is disgusting.  I mean the comment about Harris.

[DJQuag]

The Republican attacks a woman for having sex, how utterly surprising.

[DJQuag]

Oh yeah, and now this.

Benghazi needed a dozen or so congressional investigations but the Dems want to look into just what exactly happened on Jan 6th and who supported it and now it's all eye rolling and comments about political attacks. F outta here with that nonsense.

[TheDeamon]

Benghazi needed a dozen or so congressional investigations but the Dems want to look into just what exactly happened on Jan 6th and who supported it and now it's all eye rolling and comments about political attacks. F outta here with that nonsense.

Benghazi had an obvious coverup attempt from the start. Remember the attempt to blame the Embassy attacks on an obscure youtube video?

What coverup exactly happened in regard to January 6th?

Besides the one where Trump's speech is being twisted, taken out of context, and oh, evidence indicates that your Capital Hill attackers were already at work even before Trump spoke.

Also, there was no hours long firefight happening at Capital Hill while top Administration officials elsewhere in Washington twiddled their thumbs. We also never did find out where Obama was or what he was doing as I recall. And in any case, final authority for security on Capital Hill rests on Capital Hill, not the White House.

So not sure what you think a congressional investigation into this is going to achieve that other processes currently underway won't be able to address. Besides, nothing says they cannot conduct a congressional inquiry depending on what the other investigations, reviews, and even prosecutions uncover. There are only several hundred people waiting to spend their time in front of a judge for January 6th.

Compared to how many legal processes happening for Benghazi?

They're apples and oranges. Nothing brought forward to date supports doing what the Democrats want to do, at least as an immediate action item.

This is something we're likely to see get hashed out in the courts hundreds of times over the coming years. You're going to be sick of it before that process completes as it is, you really need more?

Also, as I recall, I was rather lukewarm on the additional Benghazi investigations at best. So when I'm seeing another investigation being ramped up that just looks like it's going to be another round of political theater that goes nowhere and spends tens of millions of taxpayer dollars in the process.. I'm supposed to jump and down and cheer for more of the same?

[NobleHunter]

I'm sure the courts will spend a lot of figuring out exactly what the failures were that lead to the Capitol being breached. Along with guilty verdicts I'm sure they'll provide recommendations about how to stop it from happening again.

[TheDeamon]

I'm sure the courts will spend a lot of figuring out exactly what the failures were that lead to the Capitol being breached. Along with guilty verdicts I'm sure they'll provide recommendations about how to stop it from happening again.

It's almost like the Capital Hill Police are incapable of doing an internal review, or asking other federal agencies to provide assistance in such a review into what their failings were.

What exactly is a Congressional Review going to accomplish that the CHP, DOJ, DOD, and other parts of the alphabet soup couldn't do already?

I guess they might unearth some vast conspiracy that the CHP is hiding to protect pro-Trump Republican lawmakers? Information hidden so well that the FBI and other federal agencies are unable to find this evidence as they assist? Or maybe all of the Federal Agencies are in on the pro-Trump coverup of what happened on January 6th and only a Congressional Review is going to be able to get to the bottom of things?

A year ago, deep state conspiracy theories were the domain of Right-wingers. Now they're evidently the bread and butter of the Democratic Party.

[NobleHunter]

You could say the same thing about Benghazi or any other government failure. Every part of the government is equipped with the capability for self-evaluation. That doesn't mean there isn't room for Congress to investigate further.

[Seriati]

So the Republicans, some of who were partly responsible for the Jan 6 insurrection,

What Insurrection?  Don't tell you believe in that myth.  What happened at the capital in no way qualifies as an insurrection, now what happened in Seattle?  That did qualify.

...wanted to negotiate a down the middle split for the commission. The Dems gave in, gave the Republicans all they asked for, and now the Republicans in the Senate are going to vote against the group they said they wanted.

Wow, what a concession by the Dems.  They agreed to pay lip service to bipartisanship so their commission to investigate the non-insurrection would not be immediately dismissed.

What a bunch of spineless cowards.   Of course they know that if the commission were to really do its job, they would look like the traitors they are.

If the commission really "did it's job" it would have to decisively conclude that charges of insurrection and treachery are nothing by hyperbole spread for partisan political advantage.

This is not the Party I grew up with. This group is a bunch of Trump cowards.

The only party that isn't what you grew up with is the Democrats.  They've completely abandoned reason, science and civil rights in pursuit of neo-facism and totalitarianism.

[Seriati]

Please tell me there's a place where you can by a qanon shaman hat and mail it to those Senators. We need to investigate Benghazi 8 times, but no need for an attack on the capitol.

So you missed the multiple ongoing investigations and hundreds of charges?  Or it's not politically convenient to acknowledge that the "attack" on the capital has already been overinvestigated, overcharged and overpoliticized?  What exactly are the ever so fair Congress people going to add?  Zip, Zilch and Nothing.

[Seriati]

I'm sure the courts will spend a lot of figuring out exactly what the failures were that lead to the Capitol being breached. Along with guilty verdicts I'm sure they'll provide recommendations about how to stop it from happening again.

Guilty of  what?  My prediction, they get no actual verdicts only guilty pleas (in exchange for massive deals).

[TheDeamon]

I'm sure the courts will spend a lot of figuring out exactly what the failures were that lead to the Capitol being breached. Along with guilty verdicts I'm sure they'll provide recommendations about how to stop it from happening again.

Guilty of  what?  My prediction, they get no actual verdicts only guilty pleas (in exchange for massive deals).

And also on that note, it should be mentioned that the idea that members of Congress were active conspirators in the January 6th Capital riot really needs a reality check.

I imagine there are plenty of investigators and federal prosecutors salivating at the possibility of finding someone, anyone, who is willing to testify to exactly that. And would be more than willing to work out immunity deals/reduced charges for anyone who did so.

That they seem to only be able to provide evidence that some rioters were given tours of Capital Hill shortly beforehand, and that's all they have? It says there is a giant nothing-burger there.

Unless of course you want to go for "deep state conspiracy" theories and proclaim the deep state is now covering for the pro-Trump crowd in a massive way.

[msquared]

The gaslighting is strong here. Go back and watch video from the day and say that was not an insurrection. The armed crowd was trying to stop the Congress from confirming Biden as the winner of the election.

The Republican Party has changed and for the worse. I made no comment on the Dems. This Whataboutulism needs to stop.

What were the root causes of Jan 6 and the Seattle riots?  In Seattle people were protesting the murder of an unarmed black man by a cop.  Mainly peaceful protests until dark when unknown masked people started rioting and allowed the Police to crack down.  I think there were hundreds of arrests made so during the night.  Most of them were later released, since the arrest were mainly blanket actions. There is much evidence of outside agitators starting the violence.

Jan 6 was a group, acting on a false narrative promoted by Trump and his allies, that the election was stolen. In broad daylight they stormed the Capitol trying to stop the democratic process. This was not done by masked Antifa agitators, but by sign carrying, flag waving Trump supporters. No sign of outside agitators starting the violence.  Just Trump supporters.

Of course the Republican's are scared of the commission.  It would show that  many of them were complicit, either in true belief (Hawley, Bobbert, MTG, Ghomert etc) or cynically using the crowd (Cruz, etc).

[NobleHunter]

Guilty of  what?  My prediction, they get no actual verdicts only guilty pleas (in exchange for massive deals).

People were caught on camera breaking into the Capitol and you're asking what they're guilty of? But I'm sure they're just pleading out because they're afraid of the massive left-wing machine out to persecute god fearing patriots. No real laws were broken, it's all just a conspiracy to keep Trump out of power.

[TheDrake]

The four new defendants are charged with conspiring to obstruct Congress’s confirmation of the 2020 presidential election in joint session on Jan. 6. They are accused of forcing entry through the Capitol’s East Rotunda doors after marching single-file up the steps wearing camouflaged combat uniforms, tactical vests with plates, helmets, eye protection and Oath Keepers insignia.

Trespass? Battery? Vandalism? Seems pretty cut and dried to me. Most of the codefendants from Oath Keepers are pleading not guilty, so it does seem we will find out if they can be convicted without "massive" plea deals for testimony.

[DJQuag]

For two straight months leading up to Jan 6th you had numerous Congressmen running right along with Trump in his Big Lie. The election was rigged, it was stolen, Dominion, etc. Ted "I guess my wife IS ugly" Cruz was right there up front.

Were Congressmen making secret plans to lynch Pence with people on the scene that day? Probably not. Is it a generally accepted legal precedent that you don't get to yell fire in a crowded theatre and try to duck out on responsibility for the trampling deaths? Yep.

[DJQuag]

It's funny because I remember comparing the two transitions with my work colleagues, UK residents. In 2017 I was super proud, was like, "Look at this a massive pile of *censored* is now president but the leader of the opposition is giving him a ride in his limo, treating him with respect. Peaceful transition of power, the best example the US can hope to give the world."

Then 2021 happened and I was like..."Look, even the Republicans aren't going to cover for this. They love this country too."

And now here we are!

[wmLambert]

The four new defendants are charged with conspiring to obstruct Congress’s confirmation of the 2020 presidential election in joint session on Jan. 6. They are accused of forcing entry through the Capitol’s East Rotunda doors after marching single-file up the steps wearing camouflaged combat uniforms, tactical vests with plates, helmets, eye protection and Oath Keepers insignia.

Trespass? Battery? Vandalism? Seems pretty cut and dried to me. Most of the codefendants from Oath Keepers are pleading not guilty, so it does seem we will find out if they can be convicted without "massive" plea deals for testimony.

Interesting that the House leader denied accepting security help when offered, then we saw videos of police opening up barricades and ushering people into the "People's House." We also now have confirmation that many of the recorded "invaders" were not Trump people at all, rather AntiFa false-flag activists dressed in MAGA hats.

[msquared]

Wm

Give links to examples of non Trump supporters (or antifa as you say). How about the hundreds of Trump supporters who were there?    How about the videos of Trump supporters breaking in to the Capitol? Breaking down doors and windows? 

And police letting them through the barriers does not change the fact of what they did to get inside the building and what they were trying to do while inside, which was to stop the election of Biden.

[Wayward Son]

As someone pointed out, if Republicans are so utterly sure that much of the destruction at the 1/6 insurrection was done by Antifa, why did they block a bipartisan Congressional investigation where they could prove it to the entire nation?

Answer: because they know it is just another lie that they could never prove in a setting where you have to lay out your proof and have it scrutinized by everyone.  Just like they were never able to prove that the election results were false in any court of law.

[TheDeamon]

How about the videos of Trump supporters breaking in to the Capitol? Breaking down doors and windows?

Have all of those people been positively identified? Because I also seem to recall video clips of Trump supporters also trying to stop many of those people from breaking windows and destroying parts of the building.

You're the one asserting they're Trump supporters here. Prove it. And don't just cop out by saying they were present at a Trump Rally, or that "because the media says so." Show me the reported arrests and supporting information that has been made public.

And police letting them through the barriers does not change the fact of what they did to get inside the building and what they were trying to do while inside, which was to stop the election of Biden.

You seem to believe the Capitol Building grounds are smaller than they actually are. You seem to assume the property destruction and violence was happened at all entrances into the capitol building. That wasn't the case.

[TheDeamon]

As someone pointed out, if Republicans are so utterly sure that much of the destruction at the 1/6 insurrection was done by Antifa, why did they block a bipartisan Congressional investigation where they could prove it to the entire nation?

Answer: because they know it is just another lie that they could never prove in a setting where you have to lay out your proof and have it scrutinized by everyone.  Just like they were never able to prove that the election results were false in any court of law.

Answer: Because they don't need a congressional investigation for that. They need only await the criminal prosecutions of the persons who committed the act and look into the backgrounds of those people. Those offenders will be a matter of public record after all, so it won't be hard for Journalists and others to follow up on that.

[msquared]

I am not the one claiming. It is the FBI.  It is their own posts, while it happened, on Facebook and other social media platforms? What do you want me to go list every arrest that has been made and show they are a Trump supporter?

[Wayward Son]

Well, so far the people who have been identified and are being prosecuted are all Trump supporters, from what I've heard.  It will be interesting to see how many of the most violent attackers are not eventually caught and charged.  So I don't think we need to wait until everyone is caught before we can conclude that Trump supporters were actively involved in the violence.

And while arrests and prosecutions can identify and punish the guilty, such investigations cannot go into exactly why those who tried to stop the working of Congress did so.  How much were they influenced by others, especially government officials?  Who may have helped them before the incident?  Who may have incited them?  These and other issues, necessary to understand to help prevent any future incidents, are beyond the purview of the justice system, but not of a Congressional investigation.

[TheDeamon]

And while arrests and prosecutions can identify and punish the guilty, such investigations cannot go into exactly why those who tried to stop the working of Congress did so.  How much were they influenced by others, especially government officials?

I'm pretty sure there are laws which could be applied to this, which means Justice can investigate.

Who may have helped them before the incident?

Relevant to possible Conspiracy charges, and possibly others. So again, inside the remit of Justice investigating the event.

Who may have incited them?

Basically a repeat of your first point, but with this phrasing, definitely in the remit of Justice to investigate.

These and other issues, necessary to understand to help prevent any future incidents, are beyond the purview of the justice system, but not of a Congressional investigation.

No, they are in the purview of the Justice Department to investigate as it relates to potential charges being filed. They're also in the Purview of the Capital Hill Police(and DoD) as part of their security posture reviews in regard to how they're going to approach security on Capital Hill in the future. They don't need new authority, they already have authority to do this.

[msquared]

Besides the Q-Anon Shaman, who we have all heard about how about this lady.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/florida-opera-singer-criminally-charged-203355874.html

[msquared]

Another Q-Anon person, and therefore Trump supporter,  who was convicted of staturoy rape 10 years ago is now charged in the Jan 6 insurrection.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/accused-capitol-rioter-yelled-police-145625551.html

[TheDeamon]

And did I ever deny that Trump supporters were involved in the riot on Capital Hill?

I'm pretty sure I've been saying from day one that there were going to be Trump Supporters involved.

What I'm challenging is the claim that all of the property damage that happened while it was going on was done at the hands of Trump supporters.

[msquared]

You sure set a high level. All?  Ok how about 99.99%?   Or 99.9999% was done by Trump supporters?

Why not give me an example of someone who was not a Trump supporter who caused damage?

Also I do not remember saying all damage was done by Trump supporters. I personally think it was all done by Trump supporters but I am willing to enterain evidence that that might not be true.

Let's see some.

[Wayward Son]

I would be most interested in seeing those who were not just not Trump supporters, but who were actual Trump opponents, who were arrested and charged in the Jan. 6 insurrection.  After all, that's what a false flag person really is, as I've heard there were participating.

Let's see their names and the proof that they were opponents.

[yossarian22c]

...
Why not give me an example of someone who was not a Trump supporter who caused damage?
...

This.

Every single person I've seen information about has been proud boys, oath keepers, and/or Trump supporter. If you want to make a claim that a significant portion of the riot was a false flag operation then could you should be able to find at least a couple people at this point. Are there types of people who are drawn to crowds to cause chaos and violence? Yes. Were people like that the significant drivers of the violence at the capital that day? Evidence doesn't support that assertion.

[msquared]

Just like the elections they do not need proof. In fact the lack of people who fit this description is just proof of how far this conspiracy goes. Soros has deep pockets.

[yossarian22c]

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965472049/the-capitol-siege-the-arrested-and-their-stories#database

NPR has a database of people arrested so far for anyone who wants to try to find false flaggers in the Trump crowd.

[TheDrake]

According to court documents, Mellis later wrote on Facebook, "Don't you dare try to tell that people are blaming this on antifa and BLM. We proudly take responsibility for storming the Castle."

Jonathan Gennaro Mellis

Forcibly Assault, Resist, Oppose, Impede, Intimidate, or Interfere with Officers and Aiding and Abetting; Civil Disorder; Restricted Building or Grounds; Violent Entry or Disorderly Conduct, Obstruct or Impede Passage and engage in Physical Violence on Capitol Grounds; Obstruction of Justice/Congress

[msquared]

I have no proof but it is obvious that he is a deep plant, paid off by Soros decades ago. The left plays the long game.

[TheDeamon]

Sometimes crazies are going to be crazy, and do crazy stupid stuff. The Right-wing echo chamber is every bit as bad as the left wing one.

Trump did unwittingly provide the right-wing whackies enough of a pretext to think they might be pulling off a 21st century version of Bastille Day. But a bunch of people with dubious connections to reality c/o their chosen echo chamber acting out in a given way does not make a grand conspiracy on the part of Trump, or most Trump officials to actually see, or facilitate, anything violent happening on January 6th.

"But they should have seen such an outcome was possible" is still an argument made from hindsight. So far as Trump and his immediate circle were concerned, the likelihood of such a thing was likely viewed as either being very remote, or false flagged.

They underestimated their own crazies. But it seems Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnel made the same mistake with the security of Capitol Hill for that day.

For the worst of the bad actors that day, I'd still expect to find that Trump's presence at the rally on the 6th had nothing to do with what they were getting up to. They were going to do it regardless of what Trump said. Obviously so with the pipe bomber, given he deployed them the night before if I'm remembering the reporting right.

[msquared]

TheDeamon

You say Trump unwittingly provide right with whackies pretext. What make you think it was unwitting?  Listening to his speach, and that of others at the rally it seems to me then knew exactly what they were doing The KNOWINGLY prvoided the whackies pretext.

IF you tell your nut job neighbor who has a gun that the guy down the street is eyeing his wife and that he had better do something about it and then he goes and shoots the guy down the street, you incited him.  You did not unwittingly provide him a pretext. You knowingly gave him a pretext.

[TheDeamon]

They were going to do it regardless of what Trump said. Obviously so with the pipe bomber, given he deployed them the night before if I'm remembering the reporting right.

[NobleHunter]

Because Trump said nothing about the election until Jan 6th.

[yossarian22c]

Because Trump said nothing about the election until Jan 6th.

This. Trump and his lawyers lied for months about election fraud. Trump pressured election officials to invalidate election results in his favor. Trump repeatedly told his supporters the election and their country was being stolen from them. Trump then lied about Pence's ability to appoint Trump to a second term. Trump then called for a rally at the capital on the day that congress was meeting to finalize the electoral college results. Trump then told that rally that they should march to the capital and fight like hell because they were losing their country.

And then people did just that and it was a shock to everyone in the Trump camp . In the words of Mitch McConnel Trump is practically and morally responsible for the violence at the capital on Jan 6.

[TheDeamon]

 

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/10/966396848/read-trumps-jan-6-speech-a-key-part-of-impeachment-trial

And Rudy, you did a great job. He's got guts. You know what? He's got guts, unlike a lot of people in the Republican Party. He's got guts. He fights, he fights.

Nope, that's not it.

For years, Democrats have gotten away with election fraud and weak Republicans. And that's what they are. There's so many weak Republicans. And we have great ones. Jim Jordan and some of these guys, they're out there fighting. The House guys are fighting. But it's, it's incredible.

Nope, that's not it.

And you have to get your people to fight. And if they don't fight, we have to primary the hell out of the ones that don't fight. You primary them. We're going to. We're going to let you know who they are. I can already tell you, frankly.

That's definitely not the quote you're looking for.

Republicans are, Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer with his hands tied behind his back. It's like a boxer. And we want to be so nice. We want to be so respectful of everybody, including bad people. And we're going to have to fight much harder.

That's not it.

But we've done it quickly and we were going to sit home and watch a big victory and everybody had us down for a victory. It was going to be great and now we're out here fighting. I said to somebody, I was going to take a few days and relax after our big electoral victory. 10 o'clock it was over. But I was going to take a few days.

That's not it.

The American people do not believe the corrupt, fake news anymore. They have ruined their reputation. But you know, it used to be that they'd argue with me. I'd fight. So I'd fight, they'd fight, I'd fight, they'd fight. Pop pop. You'd believe me, you'd believe them. Somebody comes out. You know, they had their point of view, I had my point of view, but you'd have an argument.

Now what they do is they go silent. It's called suppression and that's what happens in a communist country. That's what they do, they suppress. You don't fight with them anymore. Unless it's a bad story. They have a little bad story about me, they make it 10 times worse and it's a major headline.

That's not it.

But our fight against the big donors, big media, big tech, and others is just getting started. This is the greatest in history. There's never been a movement like that.

That's not it.

And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.

Our exciting adventures and boldest endeavors have not yet begun. My fellow Americans, for our movement, for our children, and for our beloved country.

And I say this despite all that's happened. The best is yet to come.

So we're going to, we're going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue. I love Pennsylvania Avenue. And we're going to the Capitol, and we're going to try and give.

The Democrats are hopeless — they never vote for anything. Not even one vote. But we're going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones because the strong ones don't need any of our help. We're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.

So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.

Ah there it is. But it doesn't seem to mean what you're wanting it to mean. given the context of every other time he used the word "fight" in that same speech. It's clear as day he's being figurative in his use of the term. And the conclusion of his speech where he states what the objective of marching down Pennsylvania Avenue to Capital Hill? That kind of actively rules out violence. Beside he'd already spelled out what the recourse was for the Republicans that "didn't fight for him in Congress" should they fail to do so back near the start of the speech:

And you have to get your people to fight. And if they don't fight, we have to primary the hell out of the ones that don't fight. You primary them. We're going to. We're going to let you know who they are. I can already tell you, frankly.

[oldbrian]

But what specifically was up for a vote, on Jan 6th, in the capital building, that the right-minded but weak-willed republicans needed to be encouraged to fight against?  He was telling people to march on the capital and encourage their republican leaders to 'do the right thing'.  Which right thing would that be?

I will even stipulate that he meant non-violently.  That they were simply to provide silent proof that the republican members did not stand alone.

But again - stand against what?  What did the senators have to do on that day that the crowd need to provide gentle encouragement for?

[TheDrake]

Can anyone say with a straight face that Trump could not have prevented Jan 6 violence if he had chosen not to be pugilistic, petulant, and petty? Did he CAUSE it? Don't know. But it never happens if he were a better man.

[rightleft22]

Did he CAUSE it? Don't know. But it never happens if he were a better man.

That statement feels like a contradiction.

Cause: a person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition
Cause: a principle, aim, or movement that, because of a deep commitment, one is prepared to defend or advocate.

So you/we sort of do know the CAUSE. The argument is when a person that participates in CAUSE is accountable or not accountable for the effect? Morally, legally?