New trans laws

[Wayward Son]

No, it wasn't. 

But it's par for the course these days. 

Every controversial stance that gets wide circulation on the internet results in threats, either physical, death threats, or both.  Name one person who is famous and controversial who hasn't gotten them.  P.Z. Myers has gotten them, and do you even know or care who he is?   It's like a knee-jerk reaction these days--say something that a bunch of people strongly disagree with, and get threaten. 

And it doesn't matter which side you're on, or if you're not even on a side.  The anonymous nature of the internet empowers some jerk or other to feel that he can threaten someone without consequences.  And he is almost always right. 

I feel bad for her.  I like her books.  She seems like a nice person.  And even if I disagree with what she says, she shouldn't be threatened for it.

I wish there was something we could do about it.  (Perhaps remove the anonymous nature of the web?  )

[TheDrake]

I tend to agree. Death threats are serious and I don't know what level of consequence there should be, but it seems like at best people get deplatformed only to prop up a replacement account within minutes. I would like to see it prosecuted as a crime, but I think the distinguishing factor is when someone says "I will kill you" versus "I want you dead, or I hope you die."

If just wishing someone would get a pipe bomb in the mail got someone in legal trouble constituted a death threat, courts could never handle the strain.

[TheDeamon]

So not sure where that 'dinosaur' theory came from but it is nonsensical.

The dinosaurs comments was to give a time frame, not a causation. Although mammals of the era are widely understood to have been small, even by current standards, and mostly nocturnal all the same.

[DJQuag]

Fun fact - most dinosaurs were smaller sized. The big ones get coverage because their bones look good in museums, but it was an entire ecosystem and even the little ones were still dinosaurs. Including the birds!

[Ephrem Moseley]

I wish there was something we could do about it.

There is.

Point out to your transgender friends that a human being is allowed to define the word "woman" in whatever way (like say, same as "AFAB") that that human being wants to define it.

You'll do that now won't you?

[Wayward Son]

I do like to point out that "male" and "female" are culturally defined, and therefore subject to change, to those who think that biology alone defines gender.  So I am doing that.

However, I was talking about people being threatened on the internet for taking controversial stands, regardless of the stand.   So I don't quite see how defining the word "woman" would help. 

[Ephrem Moseley]

well JKR tried to define "same-sex attraction" and look what it got her

and now Dawkins is on her side there

you've lost, TRA

[TheDrake]

Darryl Dawkins, the basketball player?

Point out to your transgender friends that a human being is allowed to define the word "woman" in whatever way (like say, same as "AFAB") that that human being wants to define it.

The problem is when there are legal and social implications. Should Joe's definition of a woman according to the equipment issued at birth trump how Jane's definition of a woman and how they define themselves?

What happens when the operator of a female-only gym wants to bar a transgender individual from joining?

What about a scholarship offered by the Society of Women Engineers earmarked for a woman?

If two individuals are in opposition of the usage of a term, that creates a tension that ultimately has to be resolved with a winner and a loser. Because there are real ramifications that extend beyond everybody getting to decide for themselves.

Nobody ought to physically threaten Rowling for her backward and insulting views, but her publishers certainly might threaten to drop her and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Ephrem Moseley]

the real question is why I can't choose to fear the transgender

I wish to fear all TRAs, too.

Do I have your permission to fear the transgender and TRAs?

[Wayward Son]

Out of curiosity (and to help clarity in this conversation), what does TRA stand for? 

[TheDrake]

You're free to fear any group that you want, including clowns and carnies. If you act on that fear, then there's a potential problem depending on your impact on the freedom of those individuals.

TRA is a term meaning "Trans Rights Activist", the only place I see it is a twitter hashtag, I haven't encountered it before. It seems to be employed by people who resist any part of trans recognition, but sometimes used by those who are in favor. The crowd that use it tend to frame parental support for trans children as abuse, any recognition of an individual's choice as a moral failure of society, and in many cases a psychological mental health aberration.

[Ephrem Moseley]

I was constructively fired from Safeway because I fear the transgender.

The transgender make me physically ill.

I was about to vomit.

I require an Accommodation. I cannot work when I see a transgender co-worker. I'm perfectly willing to work around that thing (meaning, transgender human being)'s schedule. I just need to know when NOT to come in to work.

Seem fair?

Pete at Home would understand

"transgender butch lesbian". Chew on that, and tell me how a Google image search would distinguish between a "transgender butch lesbian" and a "heterosexual male".

[TheDeamon]

"transgender butch lesbian". Chew on that, and tell me how a Google image search would distinguish between a "transgender butch lesbian" and a "heterosexual male".

Have you seen many butch lesbians? Most men wouldn't meet that criteria.

It's part of why my joke has always been "Lesbian trapped in a man's body" without the butch modifier, although I guess if one had to be attached it would be "non-fem" for whatever that's worth.

[yossarian22c]

Pete at Home would understand

Always fun when “new” members name drop people who haven’t been around in years.

[Fenring]

Pete at Home would understand

Always fun when “new” members name drop people who haven’t been around in years.

Lol, yeah, I was wondering who it was. Hey Ephrem, maybe you can go check out my Last Chance Ender thread, as maybe you'd have some insight into the Mormon beliefs and how they translate into Card's metaphysics in the Ender series. I was kind of sad you weren't around when I started the thread.

[Ephrem Moseley]

I like South Park's views on the LDS religion

[Ephrem Moseley]

The Eastern Orthodox Christian Church has "won".

Fr. Matthew Tate's Church of the Annunciation has "won".

Fr. Tom Hopko's https://www.oca.org has "won".

And I, John Mark Moseley, am a prophet.

test me

[TheDrake]

You make me want to vomit, EM, you narrow minded prejudiced troglodyte. Go back to the cave you clambered out from.

[Aris Katsaris]

I require an Accommodation. I cannot work when I see a transgender co-worker. I'm perfectly willing to work around that thing (meaning, transgender human being)'s schedule. I just need to know when NOT to come in to work.

Seem fair?

Is this some sort of joke I'm not getting?

But in case it's serious -- no, it doesn't seem "fair". What if people wanted "accommodations" because they couldn't work when they saw female co-workers, or male co-workers, or black co-workers, or white co-workers?

That doesn't seem like a workable system of "accomodations".

It seems more like a personal issue you need to work on with a therapist.

[Wayward Son]

If it actually makes you physically ill, Ephrem, you definitely need an accommodation.  No reason to have your teeth rot out of you mouth.

Best would be to put you in the back room, either doing paperwork or moving items in the store room.  If that isn't good enough, we'll have to find you another job that doesn't require you to interact with the public.  No one can expect you do to a job you are physically unable to perform.

One thing no one can do is require another person to change who they are to accommodate you.

If we could do that, let me tell you how I feel every time Donald Trump opens his fat mouth. 

[Ephrem Moseley]

I'll get a lawyer then.

I'll take this to SCOTUS then, if necessary, I'll get help from Jerry Falwell Jr.

I already filed the ethics complaint with Safeway Corporate.

[Ephrem Moseley]

(this is a very stupid way to test me but whatever)

(I'm not Pete at Home I just have a very good memory I was a lurker way back when)

[rightleft22]

Ephrem Moseley
not sure I follow: Are you saying that a company should accommodate you (or anyone) because you have a 'physical' revulsion to working with someone who is trans?

[yossarian22c]

Ephrem Moseley
not sure I follow: Are you saying that a company should accommodate you (or anyone) because you have a 'physical' revulsion to working with someone who is trans?

Which would be weird unless your job involved sexual relations with your coworkers.

But I think he was just trying to post a reductio ad absurdum argument with some humor and just failed all around.

[Wayward Son]

I'll get a lawyer then.

I'll take this to SCOTUS then, if necessary, I'll get help from Jerry Falwell Jr.

I already filed the ethics complaint with Safeway Corporate.

You do that.  Try to get the courts to rule that being physically incapable of performing a job is grounds to make trans people change their lifestyle.  With this court, you might stand a chance.

Then paraplegics can become warehouse stockers.  Blind men can be traffic cops.  And deaf people can be music critics for major newspapers.    After all, if unreasonable accommodations are mandated, there are no reasonable limits for anything.

Trumpists make me physically nauseous, so I'll be able to follow suit right after your suit.

So go ahead.  You and Falwell Jr. should definitely file suit.  And don't forget Falwell's pool boy.  (Falwell always includes his pool boy, you know. )

[Ephrem Moseley]

Ephrem Moseley
not sure I follow: Are you saying that a company should accommodate you (or anyone) because you have a 'physical' revulsion to working with someone who is trans?

Yeah, just schedule me around that thing's schedule, that's all I ask

I prefer not to vomit at Safeway

[Ephrem Moseley]

You do that.  Try to get the courts to rule that being physically incapable of performing a job is grounds to make trans people change their lifestyle.  With this court, you might stand a chance.

Slam-dunk.

[Ephrem Moseley]

One thing no one can do is require another person to change who they are to accommodate you.

strawman that thing can dress however it wants to that doesn't mean I must be forced to look at it

[Ephrem Moseley]

I mean, it's like everyone is assuming that everyone will follow my lead.

Which I guess makes sense.

People are asking me for my autograph now.

[Ephrem Moseley]

You make me want to vomit, EM, you narrow minded prejudiced troglodyte. Go back to the cave you clambered out from.

smile

[Wayward Son]

One thing no one can do is require another person to change who they are to accommodate you.

strawman that thing can dress however it wants to that doesn't mean I must be forced to look at it

Hey, I have to look at you, and you make me want to puke.  What can I do about that?

[Ephrem Moseley]

Hey, I have to look at you, and you make me want to puke.  What can I do about that?

well, all I want to do is to be permitted to leave whenever I see a transgender co-worker

so: you have my permission to leave!

[Fenring]

I'm just trying to piece together what the ironic running joke is meant to point out.

[Ephrem Moseley]

it's no joke

Heaven and Hell are forming, right before our eyes

High-value women decide who gets to go to Heaven: polygamy will make a return

Those high-value women will do that based on who they think will be the best fathers for children

The best fathers for children value anything that benefits children over their own sexual pleasure

High-value women never choose a man who values his own sexual pleasure above all else

those who don't get the high-value women suffer eternally: they could have had that, and they lost, eternally

[TheDrake]

Another illucid response from EM.

[Fenring]

If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

[Ephrem Moseley]

well fine but I just wonder why women are so giddy around me lately and why I'm being asked for my autograph that never happened before

if, as an ugly male, you want to attract a stunningly beautiful female, then Christianity is the way to do it

that is my life experience

[TheDrake]

well fine but I just wonder why women are so giddy around me lately and why I'm being asked for my autograph that never happened before

if, as an ugly male, you want to attract a stunningly beautiful female, then Christianity is the way to do it

that is my life experience

Doesn't seem to be working for the incels.

[Ephrem Moseley]

Christian males don't have sex before marriage

[DJQuag]

Ya'll probably know my posts, and how I tend to respond and speak.

Take it from someone who knows, this "Ephrem Moseley," fellow is on something lol. That or it's a really crappy troll gambit.

[Ephrem Moseley]

Ya'll probably know my posts, and how I tend to respond and speak.

Take it from someone who knows, this "Ephrem Moseley," fellow is on something lol. That or it's a really crappy troll gambit.

ad hominem

attack the argument please

[alai]

well JKR tried to define "same-sex attraction" and look what it got her

and now Dawkins is on her side there

you've lost, TRA

I realize that the right is endlessly enthusiastic about restricting the democratic franchise, but unless it's literally down to three people -- at least two of them Brits, oddly enough -- this seems like poor evidence for the claim made.

[Wayward Son]

Hey, I have to look at you, and you make me want to puke.  What can I do about that?

well, all I want to do is to be permitted to leave whenever I see a transgender co-worker

so: you have my permission to leave!

Well, if you can demonstrate that you consistently cannot control your stomach when you see this coworker, and are not malingering, I see no reason that they should not accommodate you.

OTOH, if you mean it figuratively, then you don't need a court decree to take care of the situation.  Just leave, as you suggest.  Quit.  Find another job with coworkers you can stand.

Of course, if a transgender person joins that job, too, then you can quit that one also.  Just keep leaving jobs until you find one you can tolerate.

It seems pretty silly, but if that's the life you want to live, it's a free country.

Heck, feel free to move to Russia or Iran if you'd like.  I'm sure they don't have such problems.  You have all sorts of options.

The only option you don't have is to force your petty morality/religion on another person.  Not in this country.

[alai]

Well, if you can demonstrate that you consistently cannot control your stomach when you see this coworker, and are not malingering, I see no reason that they should not accommodate you.

Perhaps Epsom Mosley's personal commitment to transphobia is such that they consider the use of emetics in the cause to be a legit tactic?

[Wayward Son]

Thinking about it, there are a few other strategies you should consider.

Have you talked to your doctor about it?  He may be able to prescribe Pepsid or Prilosec to control the acid in your stomach.

Have you also considered talking to a psychiatrist?  There are medications to help control anxiety which may help.  And I'll bet there are therapies that might help you discover the root cause of your problem.  Perhaps some past trauma or some silly story you heard in childhood that makes you fear trans people and find them disgusting.  Mental health problems can be helped.

You should seriously consider doing these things before bringing it up in court.  I think they would be far more effective.

[alai]

Or write to JK Rowling, see if she's lending out any of her spare castles to fellow transphobes on a charitable basis.

[Ephrem Moseley]

Let's see.

JK Rowling, Mark Hamill, John Cleese, Richard Dawkins, Patton Oswalt, and me.

Well it's a start. I know, it's only six people.

(I am writing to you all now from the friendly incarceration in CATC in Portland, Oregon)

(CATC is a longer-term psych ward that is for people like me after a hospital ER)

[cherrypoptart]

If your political opponents are attacking each other, don't get in the way.

The left will devour themselves over this.

To a transphobic person, it might be a little sad to see the sports teams that were built up for women and girls get taken over by... well... great people who are also women and girls but happened to be born as men and boys.

Of course it's nice that the trans people will have a place, more often than not in the winner's circle, in high school and college sports and I suppose if you lament that the girls who were born girls and the women who were born women will be getting the shaft, as it were, that just makes you a hateful person. Better to just  accept it and be pleased with political progress. The more political progress the woke left makes, the more liberals they leave scratching their heads wondering which side they should be on.

[alai]

If your political opponents are attacking each other, don't get in the way.

The right wing will have to do a lot better camo job than they're doing right now for this strategy to work.  Oh, and somehow have us forget everything they've had to say on the topic.

Of course it's nice that the trans people will have a place, more often than not in the winner's circle, in high school and college sports and I suppose if you lament that the girls who were born girls and the women who were born women will be getting the shaft, as it were, that just makes you a hateful person.

Things resembling this particular straw man, for example.

Can't really advise "get out the way" while indulging yourself in "see how much I'm enjoying getting in the way???" in the very next breath.

[Ephrem Moseley]

No sane person cares about transwomen in sports.

That's a distraction.

The real issue is AFAB women getting raped in prison by transwomen.