Author Topic: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit  (Read 2911 times)

Seriati

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Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« on: July 07, 2021, 10:37:23 AM »
I note the disturbing trend of breathlessly reporting on anything that can be seen to be anti-Trump continues without pause.

Is it Ignorant or Complicit that every such post reduces complex issues to their simplest and most misleadingly one-sided interpretation possible?  Is it a reflection that posters can not longer recognize nuance or con-jobs or propaganda?  Or is it a reflection that they've given in to spreading manipulative content because they erroneously believe its helping their own cause?

Truth is it was a difficult fight to build an American culture that believed in the rights of the individual, in truth, in honesty, and in justice, and that's all being undermined and destroyed for a momentary gain.  Once you destroy the ability to think it doesn't just "come back" because the crisis of the moment is over.

Fenring

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2021, 11:21:53 AM »
To be fair, Seriati, I think the history of America can be viewed (among other ways) through the lens of attacks the structure of the society and government, where certain parties make repeated and constant efforts to chip away and erode its foundations for their personal gain. I've read more on the economics front than in other categories in this regard, but it seems to me that one can observe a relentless succession of attempts to co-opt the system, increase and then make use of the gravy train, to use the media for private (and often corrupt) ends, and to establish partnerships that have no business existing. And of course the use of lawmaking to facilitate all of this. There are other, less cynical ways to inspect American history, I'm sure, but my point is that I don't think that suddenly one group (in your view, the Democrats) has decided to break the system for a temporary gain. I think this type of behavior is the norm, not the exception. However I suppose what we might suggest is that the advent of online mass media and social media has opened up the playing field so that uncoordinated groups of regular citizens can now partake of the activity that previously was mostly the domain of low-visibility powerful players, i.e. that of using public perceptions and narrative-building to push certain ends.

Mynnion

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2021, 11:29:16 AM »
I seem to remember the same thing happening with Hillary for a couple of years after the election.  Some of the news is probably valid and the rest is the usual attempt to draw attention on a slow news week.  Is it healthy?  Probably not.  While I despise Trump I despise the junk posted even more.  Yes I am interested in the investigation of the Trump Foundation.  I am not however interested in whether he praised Hitler during a military tour or not (saw that this morning).

cherrypoptart

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2021, 11:41:23 AM »
The media attacks Trump non-stop for every little thing, whether it's real or just in their imaginations. And unlike the mafia, for whom the wives are off limits, the media attacks Melania for no good reason too like a story I saw about "Doctor" Jill Biden on the cover of Vogue with the headline ridiculing Melania because apparently she didn't get on there as first lady despite desperately wanting to. It's just ratcheted up several notches for everything Trump and the reason is easy enough to discern. Trump is still a threat. He is only down and they want to make sure he's not just down but out. At least I hope it's just that. The hate is very strong with these people and it wouldn't surprise me if they kept on him even after he is down and out unlike Bush and McCain who suddenly became loved after they were no longer threats and after they came out against Trump.

The thing that's different though and the change is how off the rails the attacks against Trump are by the mainstream media and how that tarnishes their already lackluster credibility. And that's the take away. Credibility is hard enough to earn in a business and it's almost impossible to get back once you've lost it especially when you lost it the way our media has thrown theirs away. Like a veteran (John Kerry for instance) throwing their medals and ribbons away as a big to hell with you to everyone. That's what our media did with their credibility. They may try desperately to flip and to flop later to explain themselves but nobody is going to be buying what they're selling.

Mynnion

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2021, 12:02:11 PM »
I seem to remember the right wing media fussing about every little thing Obama did and Michele was not exempt.  I am curious how you define mainstream media.  There are certainly more left leaning sites than right leaning ones however the number of followers is roughly equal with Fox News having by far the largest.  Fox News, Briebart, and the other larger right leaning news have been no less guilty of promoting their version of the news than the left leaning side.  While there have certainly been irresponsible and incorrect stories on CNN etc. I don't remember them having to use the argument that no reasonable person would believe this argument in court.

TheDrake

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2021, 01:37:49 PM »
I seem to recall right wing media falling all over themselves when the Obamas got a Netflix deal. Tucker Carlson barely let's a week go by without having something to say about nearly everything Obama says and does. Everything from promoting vaccine to social justice.

TheDeamon

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2021, 01:57:58 PM »
To be fair, Seriati, I think the history of America can be viewed (among other ways) through the lens of attacks the structure of the society and government, where certain parties make repeated and constant efforts to chip away and erode its foundations for their personal gain. I've read more on the economics front than in other categories in this regard, but it seems to me that one can observe a relentless succession of attempts to co-opt the system, increase and then make use of the gravy train, to use the media for private (and often corrupt) ends, and to establish partnerships that have no business existing. And of course the use of lawmaking to facilitate all of this. There are other, less cynical ways to inspect American history, I'm sure, but my point is that I don't think that suddenly one group (in your view, the Democrats) has decided to break the system for a temporary gain. I think this type of behavior is the norm, not the exception. However I suppose what we might suggest is that the advent of online mass media and social media has opened up the playing field so that uncoordinated groups of regular citizens can now partake of the activity that previously was mostly the domain of low-visibility powerful players, i.e. that of using public perceptions and narrative-building to push certain ends.

In a number of ways, it actually pushes us back to the early 1800's in a lot of respects. In the early days of the United States, having a printing press was unusually common compared to other periods in time. The more recent modern analogue would likely be a business like Kinko's Copiers before computers and the internet really put the screws down on them in the past 20 years. Only more common than even Kinko's.

For those looking at historical newspapers in the US, you can see that where in many smaller towns(often county seats as well) as late as the early 1900's where even with a population of less than 2,000 people, they had a "Democrat Paper" in town, and a "Republican Paper" in town, and possible another news periodical that published at various intervals at the same time as well.

Only with the internet, we no longer have an aggregator/editor-in-chief making sure the stuff being pushed out the door is particularly coherent. Although Facebook, Google(/Youtube), Twitter, and Amazon(/Twitch) certainly loved to put the screws down on "Republican voices" over the past few years. And they undeniably are aggregators of information in the modern day.

TheDeamon

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2021, 02:16:36 PM »
Fox News, Briebart, and the other larger right leaning news have been no less guilty of promoting their version of the news than the left leaning side.  While there have certainly been irresponsible and incorrect stories on CNN etc. I don't remember them having to use the argument that no reasonable person would believe this argument in court.

MSNBC and the New York Times have used that legal defense in cases brought against them by Conservative plaintiffs.

Mynnion

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2021, 02:52:36 PM »
I can't find anything on the Times but if you are referring to Rachael Maddow at MSNBC context plays a role.  Did you watch the clip?  Her statement was clearly made in a joking manner.  The presiding judge agreed.  Tucker Carlson and his ilk present their information as truth.  The fact that the vast majority of his watchers believe what he says is proof.  It will be interesting to see what Fox ultimately does with the Dominion case.

Wayward Son

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2021, 04:22:16 PM »
Unless, of course, Conservatives want to argue that they should not be considered reasonable people, and can't recognize a joke when they hear it.  ;) ;D

Wayward Son

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2021, 05:22:58 PM »
I note the disturbing trend of breathlessly reporting on anything that can be seen to be anti-Trump continues without pause.

Is it Ignorant or Complicit that every such post reduces complex issues to their simplest and most misleadingly one-sided interpretation possible?  Is it a reflection that posters can not longer recognize nuance or con-jobs or propaganda?  Or is it a reflection that they've given in to spreading manipulative content because they erroneously believe its helping their own cause?

Truth is it was a difficult fight to build an American culture that believed in the rights of the individual, in truth, in honesty, and in justice, and that's all being undermined and destroyed for a momentary gain.  Once you destroy the ability to think it doesn't just "come back" because the crisis of the moment is over.

You have to remember, Seriati, that these are the questions Democrats and the Left have been asking since before Trump's term in office.

From Trump's first day as President, when he declared that he had the biggest inaugural crowd ever, to past his last day, when he declared that he had gotten more votes than Biden and had the election stolen from him,  he has lied, lied, lied.  And Republicans and his enablers have backed him up, from Sean Spicer to Mo Brooks.  They have traded away whatever belief in truth, honesty and justice they and their party had for momentary gain.  And the base has lapped it up.

So don't be surprised that we are still harping on the crimes the Donald has committed, and, hopefully, one day will be punished for.  He has severely damaged our countries faith in our election process for no good reason.  He has inspired states to try to make voting more difficult for Democrats.  He has damaged the dignity of the office of the President.  He has weakened our international standing.  He has been, without a doubt, the worst President this country has had in generations.  Until the damage he has done fades away, we will keep pointing it out, in the hopes that Republicans and Conservatives will finally see how they have been duped by an obvious con-man, and perhaps why they fell for him.  And then perhaps we can go forward as a nation, when we can all finally agree on what is true and what is not, and not be confused by the autocrats who pander to our prejudices and obscure reality.

wmLambert

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2021, 10:18:46 PM »
To be fair, Seriati, I think the history of America can be viewed (among other ways) through the lens of attacks the structure of the society and government, where certain parties make repeated and constant efforts to chip away and erode its foundations for their personal gain. I've read more on the economics front than in other categories in this regard, but it seems to me that one can observe a relentless succession of attempts to co-opt the system, increase and then make use of the gravy train, to use the media for private (and often corrupt) ends, and to establish partnerships that have no business existing. And of course the use of lawmaking to facilitate all of this. There are other, less cynical ways to inspect American history, I'm sure, but my point is that I don't think that suddenly one group (in your view, the Democrats) has decided to break the system for a temporary gain. I think this type of behavior is the norm, not the exception. However I suppose what we might suggest is that the advent of online mass media and social media has opened up the playing field so that uncoordinated groups of regular citizens can now partake of the activity that previously was mostly the domain of low-visibility powerful players, i.e. that of using public perceptions and narrative-building to push certain ends.

If you don't think the Democrats decided to break the system, then you ignored history. I've already urged you to download John Dewey's own books dsetailing his mission to do exactly that by changing our education system to accommodate the Engels/Marx idea of good little Communist students who will kowtow to the government. His words - not mine - that tells us he wanteed kids to not know how to use logic to decide n things.

Fenring

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2021, 09:28:55 AM »
If you don't think the Democrats decided to break the system, then you ignored history. I've already urged you to download John Dewey's own books dsetailing his mission to do exactly that by changing our education system to accommodate the Engels/Marx idea of good little Communist students who will kowtow to the government. His words - not mine - that tells us he wanteed kids to not know how to use logic to decide n things.

This doesn't seem inconsistent with what I wrote. I think many people have been trying to break things, right from the inception of the country.

wmLambert

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2021, 01:36:40 PM »
"... I don't think that suddenly one group (in your view, the Democrats) has decided to break the system for a temporary gain. I think this type of behavior is the norm, not the exception."

What i meant was that John Dewey was the instigator of breaking the system in 1917 for the long term - nor just the short term. And yes, that was entirely the Democrat party. Without the teaching of rigor, the masses fell into the socialist trap. It is the reason why teachers accept the non-historic view that Christianity caused the Dark Ages, and government is better than entrepreneurs to do what is right.

It may be the norm now,  but only because we can't suppress the century-long deceit that has allowed so much wiggle-room for modern-day Progressives.

Fenring

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2021, 04:16:36 PM »
It may be the norm now,  but only because we can't suppress the century-long deceit that has allowed so much wiggle-room for modern-day Progressives.

No, man, it goes back way further than that. Even at a similar time you have the inception of the Fed under dubious circumstances, with (I think) Woodrow Wilson making stark comments about the implications there. But there is really no timeframe when co-opting the system 'began'. You can look at Andrew Jackson vs the banks to see what sort of mayhem was going on pre-civil war, and that's just on the monetary front. You need to rethink your life if you think the Democrats (who by the way were not progressives, but actually the conservatives back then) invented corruption in America.

wmLambert

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Re: Anti-Trump Posts: Ignorant or Complicit
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2021, 05:19:26 PM »
It may be the norm now,  but only because we can't suppress the century-long deceit that has allowed so much wiggle-room for modern-day Progressives.

No, man, it goes back way further than that. Even at a similar time you have the inception of the Fed under dubious circumstances, with (I think) Woodrow Wilson making stark comments about the implications there. But there is really no timeframe when co-opting the system 'began'. You can look at Andrew Jackson vs the banks to see what sort of mayhem was going on pre-civil war, and that's just on the monetary front. You need to rethink your life if you think the Democrats (who by the way were not progressives, but actually the conservatives back then) invented corruption in America.

On the contrary. Today's Democrats have embraced the "Big Lie," and use it to shift focus. If you go to the Dems' own headquarters where their history is displayed as if in a museum, You will notice they don't accept that Jackson was their creator and inspiration. Mayhem vs. the banks is small change, Better you should look at Jackson stealing Indian lands and acquiring it for himself. Dinesh D'Souza did show you the actual artifacts and documentation of that. Look at "Hillary's America: The Secret History of the Democratic Party." It's free on YouTube.

What else have the Dems lied about? Nixon's "Southern Strategy?" KKK as their own military wing, Bigots leaving their party and joining the GOP? How can they blame the GOP for being on the wrong side of freedom, when it was Dems who hung GOP freedom activists from trees all over the South? It wasn't just Blacks who were lynched.

Now we have Hunter Biden's own words that his whole family accepted millions and billions of dollars of graft from enemy states and gave a portion of all of it to Joe. We have eyewitness testimony that Joe knew his family was dirty and demanded a cut. We have prosecutors admitting they shielded Biden from any bad publicity, even though it was verified and important for intelligent voting.

Yes, Woodrow Wilson was a disgrace. He single-handedly revived the KKK and did what he could to sow dissension. He is the Progressive who declared the Constitution was a living document and could be changed to meet his goals. Yes. It goes back many years, but it is entirely owned by the Democrat Party. Please, don't do what Clinton did and try to besmirch all the good people who came before him by claiming it was okay for him to be serial abuser and rapist because all of our founders were just as bad.