Author Topic: Afghanistan  (Read 29752 times)

yossarian22c

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Afghanistan
« on: August 13, 2021, 10:12:30 AM »
Afghanistan is quickly falling back to the Taliban. 20 years of fighting seems wasted at this point. Instead of a national military maybe we should have been training and arming village and city level militias. Give people the tools to defend their own homes. Seems like they don't have enough national unity for the people in the military to think its worth putting up a fight in whatever town/city they are assigned to. Maybe we should have been training and arming the women that will be locked in their homes when the Taliban returns to power. Whatever we did hasn't seemed to have worked. Maybe the Taliban is over extending and the Afghan government forces will be able to mount a counter strike but the early signs don't look promising.

Overall this looks bad. The country is falling so much faster than anyone expected. Biden is sending troops back in to help evacuate the embassy. Its Vietnam all over again.

Fenring

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2021, 12:52:29 PM »
Overall this looks bad. The country is falling so much faster than anyone expected. Biden is sending troops back in to help evacuate the embassy. Its Vietnam all over again.

And the story of Vietnam is that America should have stayed there longer and fought harder, arming the locals more than they did?

yossarian22c

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2021, 01:09:42 PM »
Overall this looks bad. The country is falling so much faster than anyone expected. Biden is sending troops back in to help evacuate the embassy. Its Vietnam all over again.

And the story of Vietnam is that America should have stayed there longer and fought harder, arming the locals more than they did?

I'm not sure there is a good solution to these issues. I think the lesson is if there is an armed group with support from neighboring/foreign countries that has decent support within the country they are going to be extremely difficult to defeat. If more Afghans are willing to fight for the Taliban than against them then there isn't that much you can do as an outside power unless you are willing to occupy the country forever.

I'm not sure there was ever a good solution or a good time to leave. Hindsight is 20-20 but what we did the last 20 years didn't work. Maybe the local villages and cities want the Taliban in control, then it wouldn't have mattered if we had armed them. But if the locals don't want the Taliban but don't have the capacity to fight them then maybe there were other options. Maybe focusing on local/regional militias with some federal coordination would have been more productive than trying to form a national army. Maybe there was no good external solution to Afghanistan.

yossarian22c

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2021, 01:28:00 PM »
Arming regional/local militias could have led to a civil war upon leaving with all the weapons we provided. I definitely don't know the right policy and it seems like the last 4 presidential administrations haven't known the right policy either.


Fenring

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2021, 01:43:26 PM »
Why did Afghanistan even require a solution in the first place? We know they had nothing to do with Osama bin Laden, or 9/11, posed no threat to the U.S., and other than poppy fields had no strategic gain by being there. It was previously well-known that going into Afghanistan was a no-win proposition in the long-term; Russia knew that all too well. The only thing I can't understand is why you're looking for reasons why America should have done more there. How about less?

TheDrake

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2021, 02:14:54 PM »
Can't really let a nation state openly harbor bin laden, could we under the circumstances? Afghanistan should have played the Pakistan game and pretended they weren't harboring him.

We've had twenty years to debate the nature and scope of intervention there, I'm not sure what another discussion is going to explore.

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2021, 09:27:34 AM »
This is the biggest failure of American policy I’ve ever personally witnessed.

“Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to fvck things up.” - Barak Obama. Barak nailed that one.

Taiwan must be sh1tting.

Mynnion

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2021, 10:32:15 AM »
I may be wrong but I am guessing Trump would have also pushed for removal of troops since that would align with his goals to reduce overseas wars.  What we are seeing is a mess. 

It is the result of ignoring the history of foreign powers failures in Afghanistan.  Once committed we were in a no win scenario with almost nothing changing long term from the initial invasion.  We need to do a better job deciding how to engage in these situations.  The best bet is to get rid of our dependence on fossil fuels and opioids and undercutting the money flow into the Middle East.  The area would be much better without the manipulation by outside powers.

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2021, 11:38:44 AM »
The attempt to hang this partially or fully on Trump is underway, as if Trump is currently in charge.

It literally took only 6 months for Joe Biden to establish himself as the worst president in US history.

Mynnion

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2021, 12:36:17 PM »
I was not blaming Trump.  I was just stating that he would likely also pull troops from Afghanistan.  Any blame falls clearly on the backs of Bush and each president since 2001 who failed to prepare for an eventual pullout.  If we are going in there needs to be a plan for pulling out.

rightleft22

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2021, 12:45:12 PM »
The window of changing things for the better in Afghanistan was lost when the War in Iraq (part 2) was started and Afghanistan was put on the back burner and allowed to boil.

Time and time again the advice given for how to deal with Afghanistan was wrong. Obama wanted out, Trump wanted out and Biden wants out.  Only one had the balls to do it.

In 2001 only one congress person thought going into Afghanistan was a bad idea. To make this a 'right' or 'left' thing now... Blame Bush, blame Obama, blame Trump, blame Biden.... The people right and left wanted war in 2001 and that is what the people got. Now the people don't, 20 years for little to show. Time to cut the loses. There was never going to be a good way to leave which is why its taken so long.


rightleft22

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2021, 12:52:18 PM »
I was not blaming Trump.  I was just stating that he would likely also pull troops from Afghanistan.  Any blame falls clearly on the backs of Bush and each president since 2001 who failed to prepare for an eventual pullout.  If we are going in there needs to be a plan for pulling out.

I believe that Trump would have left as well, and right to do so,  but Crunch has a point. The end in Afghanistan was going to be the same and the Media coverage of it would have been all about Trumps incompetence's who likely would have fed the flames with his poor ability to communicate.

Probably best this is being done under Biden

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2021, 01:03:15 PM »
Quote
Vice President Kamala Harris confirmed Sunday that she was the last person in the room before President Joe Biden made the decision to pull all U.S. troops out of Afghanistan.

In an interview with CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union,” Harris was asked about being the last person in the room regarding major decisions, something that Biden has said is important to him in his working relationship with the vice president.


Failure at every level.

rightleft22

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2021, 01:06:33 PM »
How would you or the GOP done the withdraw Crunch?
The end is inevitable?

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2021, 01:11:25 PM »
I would have randomly selected 5 people from across the US to conduct it and gotten better results.

rightleft22

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2021, 01:32:02 PM »
Nice deflection but not a answer, and the end with what ever 5 people chosen would be the same - Afghanistan going to to the lost column 

Trump was right about getting out of Syria though at the time I thought how he pulled out was wrong.  I had to admit that their was probably no good way to go about pulling out of a situation your never going to win.  Your just never going to win

Over the next few weeks we are going to be treated to hundreds of arm chair quarterbacks questioning every play. Most of them never having gotten off their butts to play the game. Can't wait

There was a window when the outcome in Afghanistan might have succeeded but that window closed in 2003 

TheDrake

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2021, 03:12:51 PM »
I was not blaming Trump.  I was just stating that he would likely also pull troops from Afghanistan.  Any blame falls clearly on the backs of Bush and each president since 2001 who failed to prepare for an eventual pullout.  If we are going in there needs to be a plan for pulling out.

I believe that Trump would have left as well, and right to do so,  but Crunch has a point. The end in Afghanistan was going to be the same and the Media coverage of it would have been all about Trumps incompetence's who likely would have fed the flames with his poor ability to communicate.

Probably best this is being done under Biden

Plenty of criticism flying around. Biden doesn't throw petrol on the fire with belligerent tweets about media coverage, shifting blame to others.

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2021, 05:18:22 PM »
You cannot be serious. I’m gonna assume sarcasm.

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2021, 05:29:53 PM »
Nice deflection but not a answer, and the end with what ever 5 people chosen would be the same - Afghanistan going to to the lost column 

It’s an accurate depiction of the level of this debacle. And no, it would not have been the same.

There are plenty of reasons to leave Afghanistan. There are also reasons to stay. Either way could be argued.

But the way it’s being done right now is an unmitigated disaster. It’s the biggest failure of American policy and leadership in at least the last 45 years and the case could be made for the last 200 years. The speed and scope of this failure is something that will resonate for decades.

The taliban has taken the country, held press conferences, been recognized as the ruler. Biden remains on vacation, hiding from the media and the world. We’ll be damn lucky to avoid a hostage situation with the Americans that are at a very real risk of not making it out.

Leave or stay may be a question but the execution of the leave is 100% Biden and will forever remain a stain upon America.

rightleft22

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2021, 05:48:28 PM »
Nice deflection but not a answer, and the end with what ever 5 people chosen would be the same - Afghanistan going to to the lost column 

It’s an accurate depiction of the level of this debacle. And no, it would not have been the same.


It isn't a depiction of anything??? 5 random people could do better??? really that saying something, making a point....

Leaving ground forces in Afghanistan was always going to end in disaster. History is clear, a military solution was never going to work. But this time for sure

Lots of reasons to leave, lost of reasons to stay and you provide none for either. 

I agree that the how of leaving is on Biden, another miscalculation among all the others since 2001... but the stain was always in the beginning as was the inevitability of the end.

Still I doubt it will be remember, no more so and probably less then the other American losses.

I suspect its China turn in Afghanistan. I expect the inevitable end will be the same for them as well.

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2021, 06:29:22 PM »
Quote
President Biden is expected to address the nation in the next few days about the crisis in Afghanistan, an administration official says

Guess he really is enjoying that vacation.

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2021, 10:17:05 PM »
Quote
Jen Psaki reportedly taking the next week off.

There is nobody left running the country. The Biden administration has completely folded.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2021, 04:59:31 AM »
Just like when Carter put his feet up on his desk and lit a nice celebratory cigar because Obama  took the mantle of worst President in history and donned it for him, now Obama just had a big superspreader celebration that coincided with his 60th birthday but was really about his joy at passing that mantle onto Joe "BFD" Biden who now wears it with a big smile along with a quickly escalating case of dementia.

"The likelihood there's going to be the Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely," Biden said in July during a news conference, adding that Afghan troops were "as well-equipped as any army in the world."

https://news.yahoo.com/biden-followed-promise-swiftly-end-204823405.html

And now the Taliban has all of that so Biden just made them "as well-equipped as any army in the world" too. If it had to fall did we really have to arm our enemies so well at the same time, betray the people who helped us so they can get dragged out of their houses and executed in the streets, and as girls 12 and up are forced to marry cutthroats and murderers have Joe Biden become the world's most prominent facilitator of sex slavery?

Although first and foremost this is a massive failure of Joe Biden, special credit also has to go to the U.N. for doing absolutely nothing. Why is it the job of the U.S. to defend human rights for everyone? Of course Joe Biden was supposed to be the guy who gets cooperation from the international community and increases the standing of America around the world but we see how much that's worth. Nada. With our borders overrun and our murder rate skyrocketing, we can't defend ourselves so it's small wonder that we can't defend others either. We're a laughingstock.

Maybe one way to turn this around is for Biden to use it as a cautionary tale. You don't want to get invaded by America. If you oppose us when we invade we'll kill you. If you help us when we invade we'll get you killed when we leave. We did that to the Kurds in Iraq too so Afghanistan is not a one off. It's a promise we have a history of keeping. You'll get the old Kabayashi Maru. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. No way out. So don't piss us off.

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2021, 09:40:17 AM »
Quote
Kamala refused a request to do a presser today. Said she was focused on Haiti not Afghanistan. Now staffers for the rival teams have been openly fighting all day, per WH official

Oh my God. Literally, nobody in the white house is running this show. Biden remains ... wherever he is ... and is potentially planning an address for Wednesday. Wednesday.

This is a completely "hands off the wheel" moment in America. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it, a complete leadership vacuum. It begs the question, who actually is running this?

NobleHunter

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2021, 09:59:33 AM »
I commend you, Crunch, for self isolating by hiding under a rock for over a year and a half.

TheDrake

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2021, 11:06:18 AM »
Carter was the worst president in history? Not Harding who watched the economy burn and ushered in the great depression? Not to mention massive corruption and scandal?

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2021, 11:26:21 AM »
I commend you, Crunch, for self isolating by hiding under a rock for over a year and a half.

And I commend you for your mental gymnastics, truly a gold medal performance.

Speaking of performance:
Quote
President Joe Biden will return to the White House on Monday afternoon to give a speech about Afghanistan after the Taliban took charge over the weekend, prompting growing criticism from his allies in Washington.

The speech is scheduled for 3:45 p.m. ET.

Biden was expected to stay at Camp David on Monday, where he spent the weekend isolated from many of his top advisers and out of public view; the only public image of him Sunday was a photo released from the White House showing the president at an empty conference room table holding a teleconference with his national security team. Instead, he will return to the White House on Monday.

This should be entertaining.

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2021, 11:29:51 AM »
Carter was the worst president in history? Not Harding who watched the economy burn and ushered in the great depression? Not to mention massive corruption and scandal?

Well, it's only been 7 months. We have the fastest-growing inflation in decades (approaching double digit), the president begging Russia to not do cyber attacks, also begging OPEC to pump more oil. and the complete collapse of American foreign policy. Let's give Biden another 7 months, let him prove Obama right about never underestimating Joe's ability to fvck things up.

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2021, 01:13:24 PM »
From Jake Tapper:
Quote
Washington Post publisher emails Biden national security adviser Jake Sullivan: “Urgent request on behalf of the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Washington Post” to help get “204 journalists, support staff and families” to safety.

There's a very real possibility of the Taliban dragging the US journalists, staff, and their families through the streets for their beheading. Jesus. What a catastrophe.

rightleft22

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2021, 01:18:52 PM »
The Catastrophizing and fear mongering isn't helping matters.

LetterRip

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2021, 01:44:28 PM »
Most of the inflation is due to used car prices increasing - which is due to US automakers canceling chip orders during the pandemic and chip foundry capacity being maxed out, so they can't order more chips - reducing availibility of new vehicles resulting in increased prices for used vehicles.

Quote
Used car and truck prices, which are seen as a key inflation indicator, surged 21%, including a 10% increase in April alone. Shelter, another key CPI component, was up 2.1% year over year and 0.4% for the month.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/consumer-price-index-april-2021.html

The 'Shelter' part is due to lumber mills cutting production - again due to pandemic, and then a sudden surge is housing starts and rennovations - causing a lumber shortage.

Quote
A pandemic surge in home buying and renovation sent lumber prices soaring. They may never return to normal, experts say.

As home building and renovation soared amid pandemic lockdowns, the price of lumber rocketed from around $400 per thousand board feet in February 2020 to an all-time high of over $1,600 in early May.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/how-lumber-industry-misread-covid-ended-global-shortage-sky-high-n1272542

It has nothing to do with Biden.  I do wish you were a bit brighter and would bother at least thinking 2-3 seconds before posting.


Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2021, 02:47:39 PM »
The Catastrophizing and fear mongering isn't helping matters.

Let's have a reality check. The headline, "Eight dead in Kabul airport chaos: Evacuation flights halted after US soldiers shoot dead two armed Afghans while three are run over by taxiing jets and more plunge to their deaths from fuselage - as UN say Taliban have started 'targeted killings'.

The highlights:
  • US troops are defending Kabul airport in Afghanistan from Taliban fighters who are fast encroaching
  • American troops killed two armed Afghan nationals on the airfield who had stormed to try to get on planes
  • Three fell to their deaths after climbing onto the fuselage of a C-17 jet in the desperate hope of holding on as the plane took off
  • The bloodied bodies of another three Afghan nationals were left on the runway after the plane took off
  • Evacuation flights were temporarily halted on Monday as the US troops tried to regain control
  • They are believed to have resumed but the Pentagon has not confirmed how many flights will take off
  • The State Department also won't confirm how many American citizens remain in Kabul
  • 30,000 Afghan refugees are expected to be flown to air bases in Wisconsin and Texas but it's unclear when that will happen
  • President Joe Biden - whose silence has been deafening for days - will address the nation at 3.45pm
  • The UN says the Taliban have started 'targeted killings' after promising not to breach human rights
  • They are going door to door looking for people on their list of enemies, according to UN officials 

This is the reality. People being run over and falling from airborne aircraft, targeted killings, American citizens stranded. But it's just "Catastrophizing and fear mongering". Are you even watching the news?

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2021, 02:49:21 PM »
It has nothing to do with Biden.  I do wish you were a bit brighter and would bother at least thinking 2-3 seconds before posting.

And I wish you'd finish that cure for cancer and varicose veins, etc. But, I guess you're too busy with that brain work on defending Biden.

Crunch

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2021, 02:53:30 PM »
As we prepare for an incredible press conference, let's recall Joe's words from June 4, 2020:
Quote
It's hard to believe this has to be said, but unlike this president, I’ll do my job and take responsibility. I won’t blame others. And I’ll never forget that the job isn’t about me — it’s about you.


TheDrake

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2021, 03:43:49 PM »
Carter was the worst president in history? Not Harding who watched the economy burn and ushered in the great depression? Not to mention massive corruption and scandal?

Well, it's only been 7 months. We have the fastest-growing inflation in decades (approaching double digit), the president begging Russia to not do cyber attacks, also begging OPEC to pump more oil. and the complete collapse of American foreign policy. Let's give Biden another 7 months, let him prove Obama right about never underestimating Joe's ability to fvck things up.

Why am I not surprised that you side stepped or misunderstood the question. Focus please. My post didn't say anything about biden, I asked if Carter was worse than Harding?

Maybe cherry will be able to defend his premise better than you did.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2021, 02:46:14 AM »
Well who is worse than whom is of course subjective.

Honestly I don't know enough about Harding to objectively say Carter was worse but since it's a subjective opinion anyway I'll stand by Carter. As for Obama well I just priced my Obamacare options and the cheapest for a family of four was over $13,000 a year and that's with a deductible of thousands of dollars so since the "Affordable" Care Act was Obama's masterpiece and in no universe is paying over $18,000 with the premiums and deductible before you start getting any serious coverage paid for considered "affordable", Obama's masterpiece is a piece of junk.

Now for Biden there is no world in which what is happening right now in Afghanistan can be considered anything other than an unmitigated disaster. Carter lost Iran to the hardline Islamists and now Biden is doing the same in Afghanistan. Generations of misery for those people are coming. When you look at all the evil Iran is doing then if Carter gets the blame for helping cause that it racks up a whole lot of negative numbers in his tally column.

Now what could Biden have done differently? Well there are international forces in Afghanistan. If he was so great at making America great again on the international stage he would have negotiated between the government of Afghanistan and the U.N. to get an international military presence there of peacekeepers to... you know... keep the peace. Maybe it couldn't be done but you never know until you try and Biden didn't even try. He just shrugged his shoulders and walked away muttering about how it's all Trump's fault.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2021, 05:42:26 AM »
And if Biden tried very publicly to get the international community with the U.N. onboard with a peacekeeping force in Afghanistan and failed then at least he could spread the blame around. As it is he said the Afghan government and military has it covered and he looks like he's almost solely responsible for one of the biggest failures in modern history, even worse than Carter when Iran was lost because we had twenty years to get Afghanistan in shape, Biden had plenty of time to look the situation over and make a reasoned assessment, he took that time and came to the conclusion that Afghanistan was ready, willing, and able to hold the line, and he has been proven wrong in every conceivable way.

TheDrake

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2021, 06:15:03 AM »
If you want to blame a president for the rise of Iran, you might want to choose Eisenhower who directed the Cia to overthrow their government and install the shah whose leadership eventually led to the Muslim uprising that led to the hostage situation.

rightleft22

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2021, 09:19:56 AM »
And if Biden tried very publicly to get the international community with the U.N. onboard with a peacekeeping force in Afghanistan and failed then at least he could spread the blame around. As it is he said the Afghan government and military has it covered and he looks like he's almost solely responsible for one of the biggest failures in modern history, even worse than Carter when Iran was lost because we had twenty years to get Afghanistan in shape, Biden had plenty of time to look the situation over and make a reasoned assessment, he took that time and came to the conclusion that Afghanistan was ready, willing, and able to hold the line, and he has been proven wrong in every conceivable way.

I made the same argument when Trump left Syria. I thought it was the right thing to do but that the way he did it was wrong.  I don't think you agreed with me at the time.
One thing I have to say for Biden is that he isn't spreading the blame around and is taking responsibly.  I think he was justified in thinking that a 300,000 man army might have done better against a force of 75,000. With that failure their is nothing for NATO to do.  Either the Afghan people stand up or they don't and they had 20 years to work it out.

Afghanistan has this weird paradox where they well do everything to push back from a occupying force but very little when it comes to inner authoritarian force.

yossarian22c

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2021, 09:26:39 AM »
And if Biden tried very publicly to get the international community with the U.N. onboard with a peacekeeping force in Afghanistan and failed then at least he could spread the blame around. As it is he said the Afghan government and military has it covered and he looks like he's almost solely responsible for one of the biggest failures in modern history, even worse than Carter when Iran was lost because we had twenty years to get Afghanistan in shape, Biden had plenty of time to look the situation over and make a reasoned assessment, he took that time and came to the conclusion that Afghanistan was ready, willing, and able to hold the line, and he has been proven wrong in every conceivable way.

I made the same argument when Trump left Syria. I thought it was the right thing to do but that the way he did it was wrong.  I don't think you agreed with me at the time.
One thing I have to say for Biden is that he isn't spreading the blame around and is taking responsibly.  I think he was justified in thinking that a 300,000 man army might have done better against a force of 75,000. With that failure their is nothing for NATO to do.  Either the Afghan people stand up or they don't and they had 20 years to work it out.

Afghanistan has this weird paradox where they well do everything to push back from a occupying force but very little when it comes to inner authoritarian force.

I agree. Maybe we should have formed an all woman army. Maybe they would have had the motivation to stand and fight against the Taliban. The fact that the entire army basically surrendered without firing a single shot is sad. The afghans gave their country back to the Taliban.

Could Biden have done a better job planning the withdrawal? Sure, but it seems like it was always going to end this way if no one in the country was willing to fight the Taliban without US forces standing beside them.

NobleHunter

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2021, 09:33:51 AM »
I think I got this from Twitter, but a problem is that the US built the Afghan army to operate like the US armed forces. That means it needs an enormous amount of logistical support which was still mostly supplied by Americans. Without that support they apparently aren't that effective in the field. If this is true, it's another reason why this situation has been headed towards failure for a long time.

I wonder if we could have gotten out sooner (and left the Afghan government in a better position) if we realized that one way to make leaving more politically viable is to have the withdrawal agreed to by one President late in their term but happen early enough in the next President's term for it to blow over before midterm elections.

oldbrian

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2021, 09:48:47 AM »
The problem is, we keep doing things half-assed.  We rebuilt their army, but left the society which needs to support it alone.  So of course the army reverted to what it was before, because that is what that form of society will support.
Banana Republic 2.0.

We had to completely change Japanese culture to get the success we had there, and a similar effort was needed in Afghanistan.  Except we didn't want to put in the effort and spend the political capital it would need.  Like yossarian said, external vs. internal.  We needed to change their internal way of doing things for it to stick.

I don't think China will reach far enough to get embroiled there, but if they do, you can bet they will be willing to go all the way.

LetterRip

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2021, 09:54:31 AM »
The reality is that the majority of Afghani's find the Taliban preferable to the US.  Their military aren't fighting because they don't view the Taliban as their enemy.  People in the US are confused 'how did the Taliban take over so quickly' - because there was no interest in opposing them by the vast majority of Afghani's.

We have this narrative that we are the beloved liberators, but from their perspective we are an invader who has setup and supported an extremely corrupt government.

yossarian22c

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2021, 09:59:44 AM »
The reality is that the majority of Afghani's find the Taliban preferable to the US.  Their military aren't fighting because they don't view the Taliban as their enemy.  People in the US are confused 'how did the Taliban take over so quickly' - because there was no interest in opposing them by the vast majority of Afghani's.

We have this narrative that we are the beloved liberators, but from their perspective we are an invader who has setup and supported an extremely corrupt government.

I would fall short of saying a majority prefer the Taliban. I doubt many of the women of the country find them preferable. But more people are willing to fight and die for the Taliban than are willing to fight and die opposing them.

rightleft22

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2021, 10:24:05 AM »
The reality is that the majority of Afghani's find the Taliban preferable to the US.  Their military aren't fighting because they don't view the Taliban as their enemy.  People in the US are confused 'how did the Taliban take over so quickly' - because there was no interest in opposing them by the vast majority of Afghani's.

We have this narrative that we are the beloved liberators, but from their perspective we are an invader who has setup and supported an extremely corrupt government.

I would fall short of saying a majority prefer the Taliban. I doubt many of the women of the country find them preferable. But more people are willing to fight and die for the Taliban than are willing to fight and die opposing them.

I might agree  but if the majority don't take a stand to do anything about the Taliban aren't they by their non action if not perfecting the Taliban accepting them? With regards to outcome isn't the pretty much the same thing?

NobleHunter

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2021, 10:32:44 AM »
The Taliban have just survived nearly twenty years in direct conflict with the US. What do you think a bunch of civilians are going to do? For most of them, their choice isn't resisting the Taliban or accepting them, it's accepting them or getting killed.

Until you come up with hard evidence about who the Afghani want in charge, I suggest you stop making grand statements about what they really want.

LetterRip

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2021, 10:55:43 AM »
I would fall short of saying a majority prefer the Taliban. I doubt many of the women of the country find them preferable.

Why would you think that?  If you go with 'well If I were a woman and lived under that situation'.  It is like feminists freaking out when women choose to be a homemaker - they wouldn't make that choice therefore it is an irrational choice and noone could ever choose it voluntarily.  Afghanistan is 3/4 rural and thus is going to be heavily weight to the 'traditional conservative values' of the region - basically in full alignment with the Taliban.

yossarian22c

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2021, 11:00:51 AM »
I would fall short of saying a majority prefer the Taliban. I doubt many of the women of the country find them preferable.

Why would you think that?  If you go with 'well If I were a woman and lived under that situation'.  It is like feminists freaking out when women choose to be a homemaker - they wouldn't make that choice therefore it is an irrational choice and noone could ever choose it voluntarily.  Afghanistan is 3/4 rural and thus is going to be heavily weight to the 'traditional conservative values' of the region - basically in full alignment with the Taliban.

I doubt that even people with "traditional conservative values" enjoy being treated as the property of their male relatives.

rightleft22

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2021, 11:05:19 AM »
The Taliban have just survived nearly twenty years in direct conflict with the US. What do you think a bunch of civilians are going to do? For most of them, their choice isn't resisting the Taliban or accepting them, it's accepting them or getting killed.

Until you come up with hard evidence about who the Afghani want in charge, I suggest you stop making grand statements about what they really want.

I would have like to think that a 20 year window would have given the civilians the opportunity to setup a structure that would have protected them. Voter turnout hasn't been great during that time.  That said I can't say I would have done anything different myself in such conditions.

Maybe this is the 'trying to help the butterfly out of the cocoon ' issue  where help makes survival more difficult.


LetterRip

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2021, 11:07:53 AM »
I doubt that even people with "traditional conservative values" enjoy being treated as the property of their male relatives.

You are again, interpreting it through your cultural expectations.  They probably view it is the right and proper role of men as God intended it - not "I'm being treated as property" but "I'm being protected by my family from wicked men who would assault my virtue".

For something comparable think of circumcision in the US.  Chomping off part of a male child's penis is from an outsiders perspective horrifically barbaric genital mutilation and yet we really don't give it much thought and most US parents will have their male child circumcised.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 11:13:46 AM by LetterRip »