Author Topic: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка  (Read 80639 times)

Fenring

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #750 on: December 21, 2022, 01:01:22 PM »
I don't actually disagree that just throwing 1.7 trillion out there with various riders is not ideal. In principle I would prefer to see major steps taken to reduce fiscal spending, for various reasons that pertain to the world economy. They really don't want lower demand for treasuries to affect their ability to use debt financing to the moon. It would be awesome to actually lower government spending, despite what certain types of 'economist' claim re: the more debt the better. However that doesn't need to come along with anti-Ukraine rhetoric, which indeed does sound bizarre to me.

DJQuag

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #751 on: December 21, 2022, 02:30:43 PM »
Or it's just people putting in nothing votes against the ruling party, so they can go to their constituents and tell them how they bravely voted against the Democratic scourge.

Support for Ukraine is a bipartisan thing, not only in Congress but across the country. It may be lowering, slowly, but not to this extent. They're doing this so they have valid video clips about how they fought the Leftist Agenda. Nothing else.

msquared

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #752 on: December 21, 2022, 02:41:34 PM »
I mean if you look at it, the support for Ukraine has actually worked. Ukraine bent under the pressure and is now pushing back. With almost no loss of American service people. The same group that wanted us to stay in Afghanistan (and lose more American lives) is bothered by us supplying equipment to a country who is doing its own fighting? DJ has it right. The Trumpist (since Trump wants to do away with the Constitution I am not going to call him and his supporters Republicans or GOP) only position is to be opposite of what Biden's position is.

Fenring

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #753 on: December 21, 2022, 04:03:37 PM »
It is unfortunate that the GOP feel the need to mire themselves in partisan insanity in order to combat inflated budget bills. In principle they could actually take the reigns as the fiscal responsibility party. In practice both parties just print $$, throwing gold pieces at the plebs for votes. The messaging from the GOP could be so simple to support Ukraine: it will save you actual dollars if we support the Ukraine, because it hastens the re-establishment of proper borders and international trade. If Russia were to, say, capture Ukraine outright, that would just mean a larger sphere of influence wherein they can threaten the world with an energy crisis. And that's ignoring the human rights issues, war crimes, etc. So even a hawkish pro-military pro-economy Republican should be behind Ukraine, or even pushing for more than Biden is doing. It's beyond strange that this isn't happening. Instead Trump tweets about how Ukraine is asking for welfare handouts. Lol?!

Ouija Nightmare

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #754 on: December 21, 2022, 08:21:05 PM »
It is unfortunate that the GOP feel the need to mire themselves in partisan insanity in order to combat inflated budget bills. In principle they could actually take the reigns as the fiscal responsibility party. In practice both parties just print $$, throwing gold pieces at the plebs for votes. The messaging from the GOP could be so simple to support Ukraine: it will save you actual dollars if we support the Ukraine, because it hastens the re-establishment of proper borders and international trade. If Russia were to, say, capture Ukraine outright, that would just mean a larger sphere of influence wherein they can threaten the world with an energy crisis. And that's ignoring the human rights issues, war crimes, etc. So even a hawkish pro-military pro-economy Republican should be behind Ukraine, or even pushing for more than Biden is doing. It's beyond strange that this isn't happening. Instead Trump tweets about how Ukraine is asking for welfare handouts. Lol?!

I had the thought today that the cheapest way to end the war would be to arm the Ukraine to the teeth and let them stomp Russia into oblivion.

Then it suddenly dawned on me the real reason that the US and the world has been reluctant to do that.


Wayward Son

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #755 on: December 22, 2022, 10:21:29 AM »
Tucker Carlson makes Trump, Jr. looked restrained.

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As far as we know, no one’s ever addressed the United States Congress in a sweatshirt before, but they love him much more than they love you...
[T]he president of Ukraine arrived at the White House dressed like the manager of a strip club and started to demand money. Amazingly, no one threw him out. Instead, they did whatever he wanted. American taxpayers, Joe Biden declared, will continue to give Zelensky whatever he demands for “as long as it takes.”

The point was to fawn over the Ukrainian strip club manager and hand him billions more dollars from our own crumbling economy. ... It is hard, in fact, it may be impossible to imagine a more humiliating scenario for the greatest country on Earth.

Other Right-wing commentators were not far behind.

Tom

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #756 on: December 22, 2022, 10:22:31 AM »
Quote
It is unfortunate that the GOP feel the need to mire themselves in partisan insanity in order to combat inflated budget bills.
I'm almost sure that you have that backwards, and in fact the GOP feels the need to combat inflated budget bills to better mire themselves in partisan insanity.

TheDrake

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #757 on: December 22, 2022, 04:41:02 PM »
Gop: I can't believe Biden abandoned Afghanistan!

Also Gop: Let's abandon Ukraine.

Fenring

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #758 on: December 22, 2022, 04:58:09 PM »
Quote
It is unfortunate that the GOP feel the need to mire themselves in partisan insanity in order to combat inflated budget bills.
I'm almost sure that you have that backwards, and in fact the GOP feels the need to combat inflated budget bills to better mire themselves in partisan insanity.

At this point in time the causality is probably circular anyhow.

Wayward Son

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #759 on: December 22, 2022, 05:01:54 PM »
Gop: I can't believe Biden abandoned Afghanistan!

Also Gop: Let's abandon Ukraine.

Apparently, the GOP thinks they are the only ones who have the right to abandon our allies.  ;)

msquared

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #760 on: December 26, 2022, 09:34:53 AM »
well between Tucker Carlson and Lauren Boebert, Russian State Media barely needs to make their own copy.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/russian-state-tv-hails-rep-045246192.html?.tsrc=daily_mail&uh_test=1_11

Comrade Carlson has been hewing the line on Russian propaganda since day 1 of course. But the Far Right America First crowd has not been far behind. I guess American first means abandoning countries that have been allies for decades and letting Russia take over Europe. 

Tom

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #761 on: December 26, 2022, 11:19:54 AM »
There are few things that demonstrate the hollow, venal hypocrisy at the heart of the Republican Party as well as their 180-degree pivot on the suppression of Russian power once Russia went from being run by a committee of isolationist apparatchiks willing to leave money on the table if it meant hurting the West to a committee of expansionist oligarchs willing to throw money at the West if it might produce a return on investment.

msquared

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #762 on: January 27, 2023, 10:40:20 AM »
Well Trump thinks giving Ukraine tanks is a bad idea and that the end of the war is easy, with out saying what he would do that would make it easy.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-suggests-providing-tanks-ukraine-234832953.html

Most likely Trumps easy solution would be for Ukraine to surrender. I am sure that is what Trump's buddy Putin wants to happen.

yossarian22c

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #763 on: March 16, 2023, 02:00:28 PM »
https://www.npr.org/2023/03/16/1163895110/poland-will-send-fighter-jets-to-ukraine-the-first-nato-country-to-do-so

Poland is going to start sending their MiG-29s to Ukraine. They've started getting American and German tanks. Just hope we get them the weapons they need while they still have well trained soldiers to use them to fight back the Russian waves. Hope the planes and heavy weapons counter the Russian waves of conscripts and convicts.

On the other hand DeSantis says supporting Ukraine isn't in the American national interest. Guess we can forget the Republican party being strong against Russian aggression.

msquared

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #764 on: March 16, 2023, 02:04:58 PM »
Hell Tucker Carlson does not believe that a Russian plane did anything to one of our drones. Even after video from the drone shows the Russian pilot both dropping fuel on the drone and then running into it.  Tucker has BDS so bad.

yossarian22c

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #765 on: March 16, 2023, 02:23:01 PM »
Hell Tucker Carlson does not believe that a Russian plane did anything to one of our drones. Even after video from the drone shows the Russian pilot both dropping fuel on the drone and then running into it.  Tucker has BDS so bad.

I wonder what Putin has on Tucker. He's so pro-Russia all the time. Doesn't do anything for his personal agenda. He's been hard selling the right on why Russia isn't so bad the whole war. Maybe its just sacks of cash, maybe its some kind of blackmail. But I don't see his pro-Russia stance being authentic.

msquared

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #766 on: March 16, 2023, 02:41:42 PM »
Of course Donald says he could end the war in 1 day.  By basically having Ukraine surrender.

NobleHunter

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #767 on: March 16, 2023, 02:44:17 PM »
It could just be Tucker's just reflexively opposing Biden. Discovery in the Dominion lawsuit seems to suggest he's not authentic about anything he says. He's not a traitor or a dupe just a liar.

rightleft22

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #768 on: March 16, 2023, 06:14:53 PM »
It could just be Tucker's just reflexively opposing Biden. Discovery in the Dominion lawsuit seems to suggest he's not authentic about anything he says. He's not a traitor or a dupe just a liar.

This reflexively opposing Biden isn't just a Tucker thing it seems to be the Trump GOP Base as they slowly swing towards Putin and away from the Ukraine.
I don't' understand the swing and I'm not sure those moving that way do either other then that it bugs the Dem's   

Tucker IMO is worse then a liar or dupe... in his way is a traitor to what the USA in its best moments stands for. 

TheDrake

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #769 on: March 16, 2023, 07:00:16 PM »
No it's because our money shouldn't benefit furriners. NATO is useless waste of money. We should have charged Kuwait for the gulf war, we should have taken Afghanistan oil, we shouldn't have a base in Japan or Korea.

yossarian22c

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #770 on: March 17, 2023, 12:17:02 PM »
Slovakia is sending all their old Mig-29s to Ukraine. They have retired them and some aren't operational but a some are and the rest they are sending for parts. Seems like Poland started a trend. Not sure how many highly skilled pilots Ukraine still has but looks like they will all have planes again soon. Controlling the airspace over a largely artillery battlefield is important. Not sure what kind of air to ground capabilities the Migs have but if the air power equation changes where the Russian artillery pieces start getting taken out from the air it will be a big boost to the Ukrainians fighting on the ground.

TheDeamon

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #771 on: March 18, 2023, 09:36:11 PM »
It could just be Tucker's just reflexively opposing Biden. Discovery in the Dominion lawsuit seems to suggest he's not authentic about anything he says. He's not a traitor or a dupe just a liar.

This reflexively opposing Biden isn't just a Tucker thing it seems to be the Trump GOP Base as they slowly swing towards Putin and away from the Ukraine.
I don't' understand the swing and I'm not sure those moving that way do either other then that it bugs the Dem's

Some of the Republican/Conservative opposition is genuine, and internally consistent, and had nothing to do with being "pro-Russia" on the matter. But to find that, you have to go toward the Libertarian wing within the Republican Party. Or just look at a lot of Libertarians who don't hop into the Republican voting pool.

Most of them are staunch isolationists/non-interventionists on US Foreign and Military Policy. If it doesn't directly threaten our borders, we shouldn't be messing with it. Basically they're going back to Washington's "Avoid European entanglements" guidance. So no NATO. no multi-lateral alliances. No alliances in general to speak of.

For most of those people, you should be able to look back into their history and find them also being against operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and anywhere else as well.

But for most of the people in the spotlight talking up the anti-war stuff on the Republican side.. Yeah, it's probably reflexive anti-Biden junk, it isn't their side doing it, so they're going to fight it.

Fenring

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #772 on: March 19, 2023, 01:14:14 AM »
For most of those people, you should be able to look back into their history and find them also being against operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and anywhere else as well.

I would very much enjoy you investigating and letting me know which GOP Congress members opposed the operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, and for that matter which right-wing pundits. I'm not even being funny, I would genuinely like to know, because my kneejerk assumption would be that zero of them opposed it. And if someone supported those, but opposed helping the Ukraine...well let's put it another way: if your statements are identical to what they would be if you were a paid shill, then even if you don't happen to be one maybe you should rethink your life anyhow.

DJQuag

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #773 on: March 19, 2023, 07:51:09 AM »
The most fascinating thing with the Dominion lawsuit disclosures is finding out what Carlson actually believes, and what he's just pandering to the audience for. I've been surprised on both ends.

TheDrake

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #774 on: March 19, 2023, 12:00:13 PM »
The Afghanistan response was to a direct attack on the United States, so it is no surprise that even the Libertarian leaning Republicans approved of it - at least at first. The original Iraq resolution had 6 Republicans who voted against it, notably Ron Paul who has always been the most visible face of the Libertarian caucus.

Mynnion

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #775 on: March 19, 2023, 01:01:57 PM »
Not quite.  Afghanistan itself was guilty of allow Al Qaida to operate within it's borders.  It is kind of ironic that the funding for these activities mostly came from Saudi sources.  It was not Afghanistan that carried out 911.  No need to research far.  Just look back at the Ornery archives from 20 years ago or ask the Dixie Chicks how they were treated for questioning the righteousness of the war.

TheDrake

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #776 on: March 19, 2023, 02:58:23 PM »
How many of the critics of the Dixie chicks were libertarians? The thread of the discussion is about how many libertarian leaning Republicans are universally against all wars, and not just Ukraine.

There are of course the sunset of party loyalists who
Loved hw's iraq, hated Clinton's Somalia and Bosnia, loved bush's iraq, hated Obama's Iraq, loved Trump's Iraq, and hate Biden's Ukraine.

That bunch mainly objects when we kill white people.

TheDeamon

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #777 on: March 20, 2023, 12:38:03 AM »
The Afghanistan response was to a direct attack on the United States, so it is no surprise that even the Libertarian leaning Republicans approved of it - at least at first. The original Iraq resolution had 6 Republicans who voted against it, notably Ron Paul who has always been the most visible face of the Libertarian caucus.

Ron Paul was the one that immediately came to mind for the Libertarian prototype in the mind of many conservatives.

His son, Rand Paul, is more of a mixed bag. But Ron Paul can still be pointed at to demonstrate that at least where Libertarians are concerned, non-interventionism does tend to reign supreme on their agenda. Russia hasn't attacked the US, while there are NATO implications in what they're doing in Ukraine, the Libertarians also want to dismantle NATO, or at least, pull the US out. So from their perspective, the US shouldn't be involving itself in Ukraine. Because the US has no direct national interests in that fight.

It isn't that they're pro-Putin, they're anti-intervention, no matter who the intervention involves.

I don't view that position as particularly tenable, as that's how you allow small problems to grow into even bigger ones in due time. As happened in WW2 because the US voters wanted to be completely "hands off" on foreign affairs during the 1930's up through 1939 for most, and December 7th, 1941 for a great many.

TheDeamon

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #778 on: March 20, 2023, 12:47:05 AM »
How many of the critics of the Dixie chicks were libertarians? The thread of the discussion is about how many libertarian leaning Republicans are universally against all wars, and not just Ukraine.

Not many, could probably count them on one hand and still have fingers left over in any given session of Congress over the past 30 years. Ron Paul is probably the only one who was fully consistent on that front, but he also was the only one prior to 2010 who was also unapologetically Libertarian on most issues, rather than Republican.

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There are of course the sunset of party loyalists who
Loved hw's iraq, hated Clinton's Somalia and Bosnia, loved bush's iraq, hated Obama's Iraq, loved Trump's Iraq, and hate Biden's Ukraine.

Plenty of Democrats who do the reverse as well, the Republicans don't have a monopoly on that.

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That bunch mainly objects when we kill white people.

The sample size on that is quite small, given the only "white people" who have been attacked by the US, directly, or indirectly, consists of Serbia under Bill Clinton, and Russia during the Ukraine conflict under Biden. Sorry, but the Libyans weren't "white" so far as anyone who is likely to care about such things are concerned. Ditto for Syria.

Assad and Khadhafi might look white to you, but that's not relevant to those guys... And could be a matter of lighting/makeup as much as anything else.

TheDrake

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #779 on: March 20, 2023, 09:04:46 AM »
Doing a statistical analysis on wars is always going to fail. I'm talking about the degree of otherness, which includes race as well as religion. I personally think that's why we waited as long as we did to start fighting the Germans. Too many people identified with them. And many of them loved the idea of Aryan supremacy. It's easier to demonize an enemy for which we cannot develop empathy.

It is interesting how hawkish Americans were generally gung ho about helping Afghan freedom fighters against their white Russian oppressors.

Personally I think it is our obligation as a powerful nation to protect the civilians of all nations from invasion, requiring only adherence to certain guidelines for the treatment of their own people. I wish there was a mechanism to kick Turkey out of NATO.

But we'd rather be the bully with our gang than stand up for the weak kid on the playground.

DJQuag

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #780 on: March 25, 2023, 04:33:53 PM »
Grant, do us all a favour and give us an update, will you?

I depend on Julia Davis for Russian political propaganda analysis, and you for how the war is actually going.

Ouija Nightmare

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Re: Ще́дрик, щедри́к, ще́дрівочка
« Reply #781 on: April 03, 2023, 08:25:50 PM »
Grant, do us all a favour and give us an update, will you?

I depend on Julia Davis for Russian political propaganda analysis, and you for how the war is actually going.

Your best indicator would be to find current satellite views of Crimea.

Look at the earthworks the Russians have going and the artillery placements. That’ll show you what they really think.