Author Topic: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation  (Read 17891 times)

ScottF

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Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« on: January 13, 2022, 12:57:45 PM »
Biden just said: "I make a special appeal to social media companies and media outlets — please deal with the misinformation and disinformation that's on your shows. It has to stop."

Just one aspect of this disturbing comment is that he conflates two types of "bad" information. Misinformation is a subjective term that is the result of presumably authentic information that either misrepresents facts or one party simply feels is not accurate. Disinformation, IMO requires purposeful intent to propagate knowingly false information.

I wonder if supporters of this believe that ideas, context and majorities are static? Will they endorse this when the misinformation de jour becomes theirs?

TheDrake

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2022, 01:24:08 PM »
Let's step out of the gray political area and talk about something that hopefully we can all agree on. Flat-Earth. Right now, nobody cares about those guys because their beliefs don't really matter to intelligent people. Nobody is running on a flat-earth platform, nobody is proposing to cut NASA's budget because space isn't real.

What if it did get to that point? What would be the responsibility of social media companies? Would they paint a banner over the top of the content but still let it ride? Ignore it? Banish it? Would it be out of line for a politician to demand that they stop users from sharing flat-earth nonsense?

In this case, it would be misrepresenting a fact. "The Earth Is Not Round."

What if people were just posting articles expressing doubt? "Is the Earth Round?" Saying that all the data wasn't in yet, do your own research by walking around and looking at how flat everything seems?

TheDrake

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2022, 01:56:42 PM »
To make it clear, I am drawing no equivalence between Flat-Earth views and whatever Biden was referring to.

Fenring

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2022, 02:03:30 PM »
What Biden is trying to do is an end run around the constitution, it seems to me. Since government cannot compel people to stop saying certain things, the next best thing is to strongarm "private" companies into doing so. The government/private distinction is virtually meaningless at this point anyhow, since government contracts and deals with companies effectively amount to an unofficial partnership in many cases (such as with Google, Amazon, and of course military companies). These partnerships can obviously result in the government 'requiring' their partners to do various things in exchange for continued income streams.

Now I'm sort of all for a new system of news media, which could involve a gold standard of unbiased or objective fact-based reporting, in a guild or who knows what, where bad actors have their status stripped. This is how it used to be before the 24 news cycle anyhow. Back then it was mandated by government, which it could be again, or it could be a private organization running its own set of standards like a dental or medical association. I mean, this won't actually happen, because it's probably more profitable to get the populace to tear each other apart rather than to work together to re-establish journalistic integrity. Why would they want to sabotage their own clickbait cycle to clean things up? So I don't think they'd be up for it, but in any case I would. So bear that in mind when I suggest that Biden seems, just like his recent predecessors, to think that the Federal government is everyone's overlord. If anything it should be the Congress adjudicating on such matters anyhow, not the President telling companies to censor points of view.

alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2022, 02:34:58 PM »
"Presumably authentic information" is a weirdly specific and overly narrow dicdeffing take on what "misinformation" might be.  Though one that might be illuminating as to your own protestations as to what is and isn't "misinformation" -- in the admittedly edge case you yourself use it remotely consistently.

But on the face of the statement, he's not conflating the two at all.  It's literally a list of two distinct things.  Given that -- according to my own dicdeffy and general understanding -- the key distinction between the two is intent, it makes sense to try to address to two together.  Rather than the "windows into souls" angle being a prerequisite to dealing with either.

TheDrake

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2022, 02:41:01 PM »
It's not an end run around anything to ask media outlets to be truthful. It's not an infringement on free speech to ask one of many conduits to take down posts recommending that people drink their own urine, is it? Now, if Biden asked AT&T or Comcast to start filtering content, I might agree with you.

It isn't a point of view to claim that chugging urine is good for you.

This isn't a point of view either, its just plain wrong:

Quote
“It’s not a vaccine. It’s gene therapy!” wrote one Facebook user on Aug. 9, noting that gene therapy “manipulates genetic code” (here and here).

Is it really the realm of a terrifying police state if google demonitizes or delists a user spreading that video around on YouTube based on Biden's exhortation?

alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2022, 02:42:44 PM »
What Biden is trying to do is an end run around the constitution, it seems to me.
He's attempting to suppress free speech by the overweening presidential power of...  using his own political speech.  Making an entirely innocuous, if not to say pretty ineffectual, "appeal".  As opposed to the assorted thunderings from other quarters:  even more right-wing misinformation, or we'll use the power of government to crush you!

It's quite the Rorschach test.

alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2022, 02:45:32 PM »
This isn't a point of view either, its just plain wrong:

Quote
“It’s not a vaccine. It’s gene therapy!” wrote one Facebook user on Aug. 9, noting that gene therapy “manipulates genetic code” (here and here).
We'd a mutation of that one here, of course, without the particularisation to the "gene therapy" thing.

ScottF

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2022, 04:27:19 PM »
Now I'm sort of all for a new system of news media, which could involve a gold standard of unbiased or objective fact-based reporting,
I think this is impossible because...humans.
Quote
This is how it used to be before the 24 news cycle anyhow.
Do you think Walter Kronkite and the organization behind him typically played it right down the line? Which line?

I would agree that it's MUCH worse now. Beyond just the invention of 24/7 news, the seamless integration of opinion/entertainment segments like Hannity, Maddow, etc has been particularly pernicous.

msquared

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2022, 04:37:32 PM »
Yes when the non reporter talking heads "ask questions" on their shows, and then the reports report that there are questions, with out saying that it is their own employees asking the "questions" and then not really doing any reporting on the answer to the questions and then the talking heads saying it has been reported somewhere, when it is their own reporter reporting on them.

rightleft22

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2022, 05:24:09 PM »
Quote
I think this is impossible because...humans.

I think its possible but that it requires those taking in the information to learn some skills
- Know the difference between a journalist that reports news and those that comment on the news.
- Know the difference between News and opinion and speculation.

A 24 hour news channel less then 20% is news the rest is commentary, speculation and opinion.
As msquared point out it gets worse when speculation is reported as news and self referenced as fact. 

We make the medio out to be this big bogyman but the Media reflects the listeners.
We get the media we deserve and apparently we want News as entertainment more then we want facts. 

TheDrake

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2022, 05:36:21 PM »
Meanwhile, the American Virus seems to be spreading.

Quote
Arguing that as a regulated public broadcaster, the BBC “helps bind the country together” he said that in the US “it’s the opinion hosts who can mould and shape minds”, leading to a “trust deficit” that “has serious consequences for the fabric of US society, and the future of American democracy”.

Myrie’s intervention comes at a time of flux in UK media, with two new players – Andrew Neil’s GB News and Rupert Murdoch’s News UK TV – set to enter the broadcast news market later this year. While some have expressed fears that the newcomers intend a Fox News-style approach, a claim they deny, Myrie said Neil was “too good a journalist with a reputation to protect to want to be associated with a news channel that peddles conspiracy theories and propaganda.”

Grant

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2022, 05:47:54 PM »

Now I'm sort of all for a new system of news media, which could involve a gold standard of unbiased or objective fact-based reporting,

I feel that most info coming from actual news desks at the networks or cable channels ARE fact based.  But these channels make more money off their opinion people, and opinions are just opinions. They cannot be fact based because they have to do with values and beliefs that are not objective.  I mean, most everyone is an objectivist when it comes to their values.  They believe they are right and the other guy is wrong.  But we can still identify an opinion because it deals with values or prescriptions rather than facts. 

What are you going to do with all the opinion people?  Tell them they can't be on television?  Relegate them to newspapers or magazines or the internet?  You can't get rid of opinions.  They're protected by the 1st Amendment.  And sharing them is protected as well. 


rightleft22

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2022, 05:53:58 PM »
I would like to see standards applied to content presented on a 'news' channel - clearly indicating which segments and or programs are editorial, opinion and speculation.
I suspect It needs to be spelled out for people and not taken for granted that they can figure it out.

alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2022, 06:28:41 PM »
I would agree that it's MUCH worse now. Beyond just the invention of 24/7 news, the seamless integration of opinion/entertainment segments like Hannity, Maddow, etc has been particularly pernicous.
Very much agree on that.  There's a basic truth-in-advertising issue here;  if it's labelled as "news", if it's framed as news, then it should be ideally in the first instance by way of basics ethical consideration run as news, and as appropriate regulated as news.  Tricky as that latter area is, and depending on local law and tradition in that area.

Meanwhile, the American Virus seems to be spreading.

Quote
Arguing that as a regulated public broadcaster, the BBC “helps bind the country together” he said that in the US “it’s the opinion hosts who can mould and shape minds”, leading to a “trust deficit” that “has serious consequences for the fabric of US society, and the future of American democracy”.

Myrie’s intervention comes at a time of flux in UK media, with two new players – Andrew Neil’s GB News and Rupert Murdoch’s News UK TV – set to enter the broadcast news market later this year. While some have expressed fears that the newcomers intend a Fox News-style approach, a claim they deny, Myrie said Neil was “too good a journalist with a reputation to protect to want to be associated with a news channel that peddles conspiracy theories and propaganda.”
You'll note (if you read this article on the Guardian website, which I take it is what's being quoted directly here) this is several months old now.  GB News has itself been quite the unfolding story, largely of a "laughing stock" sort, but with alarming undertones nonetheless.  One of its executives and main presenters, an old BBC TV and Murdoch newspaper hack himself, protested loud and long that it wasn't going to be "Fox News UK".  Then fairly recently left saying he'd had furious arguments with everyone else involved who yup, insisted that it should be exactly that.  Everybody saw it by you, Andy!  (This is the Andrew Neil of "Ben Shapiro car-crash interview" fame, if that made it back over there.)

You can't get rid of opinions.  They're protected by the 1st Amendment.  And sharing them is protected as well. 
But the question is, is monetising them beyond all regulation if there's out-and-out deception going on.  And I pose that as a genuine question -- I know that the US has very broad freedom-of-speech provisions compared to other common law countries, but  I make no pretense to be all over where the bright lines are -- if anywhere.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2022, 06:55:28 PM »
Quote
I think this is impossible because...humans.

I think its possible but that it requires those taking in the information to learn some skills
- Know the difference between a journalist that reports news and those that comment on the news.
- Know the difference between News and opinion and speculation.

A 24 hour news channel less then 20% is news the rest is commentary, speculation and opinion.
As msquared point out it gets worse when speculation is reported as news and self referenced as fact. 

We make the medio out to be this big bogyman but the Media reflects the listeners.
We get the media we deserve and apparently we want News as entertainment more then we want facts.

I think it should be a law that Opinion show hosts should have to wear big clown hats so it's obvious to everyone.

alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2022, 07:07:35 PM »
I think it should be a law that Opinion show hosts should have to wear big clown hats so it's obvious to everyone.
Just hats?  Centrist!  Head-to-foot clown costume and makeup.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2022, 09:49:30 PM »
So I must have missed Biden's public mea culpa and owning up to his own dangerous covid misinformation that was responsible for tens of thousands of deaths, maybe eventually hundreds of thousands. I was looking up examples of covid misinformation and they have it there, sure enough, and good for them.

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2021/myths-vs-facts-covid-19-vaccine/


"MYTH: I’m vaccinated. So I can drop all my COVID precautions, right?


FACT: Studies have shown that a person infected with the Delta variant of COVID has roughly 1,000 times more copies of the virus in their respiratory tracts than a person infected with the original strain.—CDC, Delta Variant: What We Know About the Science
Hamer: The challenge is that Delta is so transmissible that I am starting to advise people to wear masks again in supermarkets and stores and public places."

---------------------------------------------

Yeah, Biden didn't know Delta would do that so maybe instead of putting out deadly covid misinformation before he knew for sure, he should have waited to find out. Biden is the Covid Misinformationer in Chief. So what should he do? He should first admit his mistake and apologize for making the pandemic worse, prolonging it, and killing thousands by colluding with the Delta virus to help spread it by lying to people about it being safe to take off their masks if they are vaccinated and laying the groundwork for spreading Omicron by people who still think it's safe to be maskless. Won't be holding my breath on that.

Even the Republicans didn't say it was safe for the vaccinated to take off their masks because they couldn't spread Covid. They didn't lie. They just said they don't care if people spread Covid so everyone, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike, can just take their masks off and spread it around because "freedom" and if and when people get sick by the millions and die by the hundreds of thousands they just don't care because to hell with all those losers. And that was all true.

alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2022, 10:01:39 PM »
So I must have missed Biden's public mea culpa [...]
The rolling cherry tangentfest.  It's truly beyond parody.

Looking forward to your "responsibility for deaths" audit that doesn't begin, end, and endlessly repeat with "ahyesbutwhataboutbiden".

TheDeamon

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2022, 10:25:27 PM »
In this case, it would be misrepresenting a fact. "The Earth Is Not Round."

I think the proper term is "oblate spheroid" but flat certainly isn't one of the valid options.

TheDeamon

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2022, 11:19:34 PM »
I feel that most info coming from actual news desks at the networks or cable channels ARE fact based.  But these channels make more money off their opinion people, and opinions are just opinions. They cannot be fact based because they have to do with values and beliefs that are not objective.  I mean, most everyone is an objectivist when it comes to their values.  They believe they are right and the other guy is wrong.  But we can still identify an opinion because it deals with values or prescriptions rather than facts. 

What are you going to do with all the opinion people?  Tell them they can't be on television?  Relegate them to newspapers or magazines or the internet?  You can't get rid of opinions.  They're protected by the 1st Amendment.  And sharing them is protected as well.

Thing is, the news commentators are cheaper to employ than a newsroom to fill the same volume of airtime. They're also more reliable in generating and maintaining ratings--which means predictable revenue.

For news gathering, you need reporters either already on the scene, or able to get there quickly. Both of which require a considerable investment in resources. For the national networks, you also have the compounding issue of finding things to reports that rise to the level of "national interest" for said reporting. Less of a problem if you're England and geographically smaller than most states in the USA.

Much more of a problem if you're the United Sates.

Throw in the fragmentation of the markets that started with the national rollout of cableTV on a mass scale starting in the 1970's and the Satellite TV services rolling into the mass market in the 1990's, just in time for the Internet to start pulling down cable networks and print media at the same time... And the loss of eyeballs and revenue to those news organizations means the desire to reduce costs(more commentary, less reporter overhead), and new paradigms(Fox news doing exactly what was previously described from the onset). And you get the modern paradigm of news being mostly commentary and analysis rather than news gathering and reporting.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2022, 11:43:55 PM »
The biggest problem though is when the news and opinion programs don't push the right agenda. If we're honest, that's what Biden really wants to stop.

We see an example of what they are looking for in NPR. You can hardly turn it on anymore, at any time, without having their so called news almost without exception framing every single story with a woke racial justice type slant.

That's necessary though of course because without it, it would be dangerous misinformation that could lead to racism or some type of discrimination or a failure to acknowledge privilege of various flavors and we all know that those types of hate are the greatest threat to America and the survival of the species, bar none; even global warming comes in at a distant second. Oh, excuse me, I mean climate change. Of course we also must stop climate change because as we all know that discriminates and is racist too.

The point is, every station must be as "unbiased" as the one the government officially approves of, supports, and literally pays for, NPR. The final destination.


Crunch

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2022, 11:31:59 AM »

Now I'm sort of all for a new system of news media, which could involve a gold standard of unbiased or objective fact-based reporting,

I feel that most info coming from actual news desks at the networks or cable channels ARE fact based. 

They are fact based in the same sense that movies are "based on actual events". 

Crunch

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2022, 11:35:14 AM »
Here's the thing, as long as I'm the one that gets to determine what is or is not misinformation & disinformation, then cool. Happy to make that call for you people.  But you guys or some dementia addled apparatchik who can't handle a teleprompter or even answer basic questions anymore, fuggedaboutit.

Grant

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2022, 12:33:37 PM »
They are fact based in the same sense that movies are "based on actual events".

Like the above statement is based in any way on actual argument or debate?

TheDrake

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2022, 12:45:28 PM »
Is this misinformation?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study

On the face of it? No. The Guardian is passing on information. It makes it clear this hasn't yet been peer reviewed, the research was conducted by accredited scientists who are specialists.

The subheading: US researchers say teenagers are more likely to get vaccine-related myocarditis than end up in hospital with Covid

Now when an OANN talking head gets a hold of this and starts using it to justify adults not getting the vaccine, that's misuse of information. That is opinion, but it is also misinformation. It's like when Pravda reported that the US came in second to last in a race where Russia came in second place. Which was factual, but left out the crucial distinction that the only entrants were Russia and the US.

I doubt Biden was referring to articles in the Guardian, but only he would know for sure. Misinformation slips in if someone changes the heading to:

US researchers say some are more likely to get vaccine-related myocarditis than end up in hospital with Covid.

This leads people to believe that it might apply to them, when they aren't in the 12-15 age group. One would also have to acknowledge that the study data predated Omicron and that could alter the amount of hospitalization in young people.

Grant

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2022, 12:54:04 PM »

It's like when Pravda reported that the US came in second to last in a race where Russia came in second place. Which was factual, but left out the crucial distinction that the only entrants were Russia and the US.

LOL.  Did that really happen?  That's beautiful, man.  I hope it did. 

TheDrake

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2022, 01:08:21 PM »

It's like when Pravda reported that the US came in second to last in a race where Russia came in second place. Which was factual, but left out the crucial distinction that the only entrants were Russia and the US.

LOL.  Did that really happen?  That's beautiful, man.  I hope it did.

I tried to search around for it. It's stuck with me for decades, but there's no way to prove it was real. It may have been apocryphal.

alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2022, 01:27:13 PM »
It's like when Pravda reported that the US came in second to last in a race where Russia came in second place. Which was factual, but left out the crucial distinction that the only entrants were Russia and the US.
That a beautifully crafted one, whether actually by Pravda, or by someone making it up after the fact.

Here's the thing, as long as I'm the one that gets to determine what is or is not misinformation & disinformation, then cool.
Sure, let's go by your take.  You seem a pretty reliable anti-weathervane.

Is this misinformation?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study
What about (the non-peer-reviewed study, not the reporting of its existence) being "deeply flawed"?  https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2251?

We see an example of what they are looking for in NPR. You can hardly turn it on anymore, at any time, without having their so called news almost without exception framing every single story with a woke racial justice type slant.
Or neglecting to frame it to the liking of the series of terrible takes we daily see on display here, which may not objectively be quite the same thing.

Quote
The point is, every station must be as "unbiased" as the one the government officially approves of, supports, and literally pays for, NPR.
Bit of a breezy summary, there.  No direct federal funding;  some competitively awarded grants (2% of their revenue, says the internet).

In this case, it would be misrepresenting a fact. "The Earth Is Not Round."

I think the proper term is "oblate spheroid" but flat certainly isn't one of the valid options.
"Round" is accurately imprecise;  "oblate spheroid" is a higher-precision approximation than "sphere", but still quite a bit out.  (Down to tens of metres of inaccuracy, rather than tens of kilometres, though.)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 01:29:18 PM by alai »

TheDrake

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2022, 03:51:44 PM »
"Round" is accurately imprecise;  "oblate spheroid" is a higher-precision approximation than "sphere", but still quite a bit out.  (Down to tens of metres of inaccuracy, rather than tens of kilometres, though.)

Uncle! Uncle! You guys win on the round comment. Technically, a discworld is round also. I'm not sure exactly which geometrical shape the flat earth loonies have settled on, but I thought it was a disk with a pole mapping to the outer rim or something stupid like that. I'd like to settle on lumpy ball shaped, or if you prefer, testicular.

alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2022, 04:16:56 PM »
Yes, that's a fair point, circular is certainly "round" in the general meaning of the word.  Number of dimensions also needs to be specified!

The diagrams I've seen have been exactly as you describe, but according to SciAm, they split into "disc", "infinite plane", and "just arguing to be griefers and trolls" subgroups.  [url]https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/flat-earthers-what-they-believe-and-why/[/quote]  Is there nothing to be said for a square?!

LetterRip

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2022, 04:24:19 PM »
Is this misinformation?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study

It isn't 'misinformation' in the sense that there is an (unreviewed) paper that exists claiming that.  It is misinformation in that you can't (can't as in 'statistically meaningless' and incapable of being a means for which to draw meaningful conclusions) use VAERS in the way the researchers were doing so since there is no verification of reports.

Because VAERS is unvetted and anyone can submit a report without verification, or the same report can be submitted by multiple people, it is only a means for documenting what people have reported, not necessarily actual adverse outcomes or a numerical representation of adverse outcomes.

For instance vaccines can't really turn you into the incredible hulk,

Quote
In 2004, anesthesiologist James Laidler submitted an alarming report to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). Laidler wrote that after he got his annual influenza vaccine, his muscles began to grow in size, his skin became green, and he turned into the Incredible Hulk.

Laidler’s intent was not to notify government officials of a dangerous side effect, but to show the need for caution when interpreting the data found in VAERS, the national vaccine safety surveillance program run by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).


https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjpmp7/anti-vaxxers-misuse-federal-data-to-falsely-claim-covid-vaccines-are-dangerous

Anyone can enter anything into VAERS.

Also even if all reports in it were legitimate reports, there is no reason to think that they are causative.

Quote
Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.

https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html

To get accurate information on vaccine versus COVID-19 induced heart inflammation, you can do based on medical records,

Quote
Conclusions Myocarditis (or pericarditis or myopericarditis) from primary COVID19 infection occurred at a rate as high as 450 per million in young males. Young males infected with the virus are up 6 times more likely to develop myocarditis as those who have received the vaccine.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.23.21260998v1.full

« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 04:26:29 PM by LetterRip »

TheDrake

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2022, 05:56:45 PM »
I didn't realize the research was based on VAERS. In and of itself, that isn't bad, you can learn something useful from it. You can't draw clinical conclusions from it directly, however. LR makes that case quite thoroughly.

ScottF

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2022, 09:47:38 AM »
This is fine.

“Nearly half (48%) of Democratic voters think federal and state governments should be able to fine or imprison individuals who publicly question the efficacy of the existing COVID-19 vaccines on social media, television, radio, or in online or digital publications.”

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/partner_surveys/jan_2022/covid_19_democratic_voters_support_harsh_measures_against_unvaccinated


alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2022, 01:54:13 PM »
Rasmussen Reports and the Heartland Institute gonna Rasmussen Reports and gonna Heartland Institute.

While people wanting to criminalise others for "questioning" things is on the face of it concerningly illiberal -- or would be, if that came from a good-faith source, rather than those sweating desperately to put that spin on it -- it rather speaks to the quality of the "questioning" that they've been exposed to.  The vaccines don't work at all, the vaccines aren't even vaccines, etc.  That's not "questioning", that's JAQing off.  Or worse.  Or compliantly echoing such from others.

Shame "better science education" and "dopeslapping" weren't on the menu of options.

TheDrake

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2022, 01:57:51 PM »
This is fine.

“Nearly half (48%) of Democratic voters think federal and state governments should be able to fine or imprison individuals who publicly question the efficacy of the existing COVID-19 vaccines on social media, television, radio, or in online or digital publications.”

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/partner_surveys/jan_2022/covid_19_democratic_voters_support_harsh_measures_against_unvaccinated

There are a lot of "ORs" in that question that make me wonder which exactly people agree with. Fining someone on television for publicly questioning efficacy of vaccines is probably the weakest version, and that's still pretty bad. The strongest would be to imprison people for questioning efficacy on social media, which is beyond the pale.

There's also a question about how they are questioning the efficacy. I also wonder if people caught on to efficacy in the question, rather than danger. I immediately think about the overblown claims that the vaccine will turn you magnetic and think, "how much do I want to fight for the right of people to spout complete nonsense". But, the constitution is largely clear on the subject.

Meanwhile, don't ignore that 14% of Republicans also agreed with the question.

alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2022, 06:54:13 PM »
Meanwhile, don't ignore that 14% of Republicans also agreed with the question.
Which I'd have a decent-sized wager is a better measure of politicised vaccines have become, than of the general "why, there should be a law against it!" tendency across the parties.

I'm reminded of a "libertarians, what's the one authoritarian policy you favour?" thread I happened across someplace.  There were no lack of takers, but I'm more skeptical about the "one" part...

ScottF

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2022, 10:10:03 AM »
Whether or not you think he's a complete idiot (I don't), it's amazing how CNN and other TV media still live in a world where they think his show is the one outside the mainstream. They can't process the fact they're the ones who are literally fringe when it comes to viewership.

Average viewers per show:
CNN Primetime:   810,000
Joe Rogan:          11,000,000

TheDrake

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2022, 11:23:19 AM »
Ha ha ha. If quality were judged by ratings, Jersey shore was fine art and Shakespeare sucks! Sometimes being in the fringe means you're just BETTER. But not in CNNs case. Who made that point, and why the F are you comparing podcast to broadcast numbers? How many people watch rogan Live? How many people watch CNN on demand? Your premise is as flawed as most of your arguments, Scott. But the Commander in Nothing loved yammering on about who had the most ratings, so I'm not surprised you're using that metric.

Grant

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2022, 12:12:48 PM »
Whether or not you think he's a complete idiot (I don't), it's amazing how CNN and other TV media still live in a world where they think his show is the one outside the mainstream. They can't process the fact they're the ones who are literally fringe when it comes to viewership.

Average viewers per show:
CNN Primetime:   810,000
Joe Rogan:          11,000,000

Are we pretending that television viewers and podcast subscriptions or listens are the same? Cute.  I havn't played make-believe in a long time.  I'll be Cobra Commander...

"You incompetent moronsssss!  How dare you compare the might and power of the great Joe Rogan to the weak sniveling foolssss at ssssseeeNNN?!  According to the intelligence gathered by my agentsss at Ssssspotify, the only real threat to Joe Rogan is Violating Community Sssstandardssss with Brittany Brosssski and Ssssarah Ssschauer, and the Always Ssssunny Podcast!  They must be eliminated!  Long live Cobra!" 

I've changed my mind, I want to be Bane...

"No one cared who Joe Rogan was until he put on the podcast.  Do you feel that Joe Rogan is News?  Your comparisons have defeated you.  You think subscriptions and downloads are your ally?   You merely adopted the ratings.   I was born in it.  Molded by it.  I didn't hear podcast content until I was a man, by then it was nothing to me.  The ratings betray you because they belong to ME!"

TheDrake

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2022, 12:46:28 PM »
Whether or not you think he's a complete idiot (I don't), it's amazing how CNN and other TV media still live in a world where they think his show is the one outside the mainstream. They can't process the fact they're the ones who are literally fringe when it comes to viewership.

Average viewers per show:
CNN Primetime:   810,000
Joe Rogan:          11,000,000

Are we pretending that television viewers and podcast subscriptions or listens are the same? Cute.  I havn't played make-believe in a long time.  I'll be Cobra Commander...

"You incompetent moronsssss!  How dare you compare the might and power of the great Joe Rogan to the weak sniveling foolssss at ssssseeeNNN?!  According to the intelligence gathered by my agentsss at Ssssspotify, the only real threat to Joe Rogan is Violating Community Sssstandardssss with Brittany Brosssski and Ssssarah Ssschauer, and the Always Ssssunny Podcast!  They must be eliminated!  Long live Cobra!" 

I've changed my mind, I want to be Bane...

"No one cared who Joe Rogan was until he put on the podcast.  Do you feel that Joe Rogan is News?  Your comparisons have defeated you.  You think subscriptions and downloads are your ally?   You merely adopted the ratings.   I was born in it.  Molded by it.  I didn't hear podcast content until I was a man, by then it was nothing to me.  The ratings betray you because they belong to ME!"

More skeletor than cobra commander I think. By the Power of Greyskull!

Grant

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2022, 01:08:38 PM »
By the Power of Greyskull!

"Where on earth did you get these?"
"Ferrndem"
"He found them"
"And what..is this?"
"Sea mine"
"Seemeyn"
"Well Mr. Webley, this is an extremely dangerous collection.  It's a wonder nobody's been hurt before"
"Nahhhhhh... izjustalottajonk"

alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2022, 01:33:10 PM »
Whether or not you think he's a complete idiot (I don't) [...]
I believe his preferred self-identification is "f**king moron".

[...] it's amazing how CNN and other TV media still live in a world where they think his show is the one outside the mainstream.
It's amazing you'd say this was amazing, when it's very much the narrative of people eager to attack TV and newspapers as "the mainstream".  Or "the lamestream", to use the famous Palinism.  (Not as in Michael, the Palin you can support, as Friday Night Tight End Mike Carlson might have put it.)  Large chunk of people give an innumerate answer to a poll question?  Axiomatically the fault of the boob toob!

ScottF

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2022, 11:43:23 AM »
Ha ha ha. If quality were judged by ratings, Jersey shore was fine art and Shakespeare sucks! Sometimes being in the fringe means you're just BETTER.

Dang, clearly you knew what I was really commenting on was how viewership numbers implicitly convey superior quality between competing content sources. You got me!

Fenring

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2022, 11:55:32 AM »
ScottF's point was pretty clear. If one media source has vastly more viewership then ipso facto it is the mainstream, regardless of any other attributes it may or may not have. At a certain point it might end up being a chickenhawk scenario.

ScottF

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2022, 11:59:33 AM »
ScottF's point was pretty clear. If one media source has vastly more viewership then ipso facto it is the mainstream, regardless of any other attributes it may or may not have. At a certain point it might end up being a chickenhawk scenario.

Please knock off the good-faith interpretation of what I was saying, it weakens one's ability to mock.  :)

alai

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2022, 01:33:05 PM »
And one's ability in that area really can't take the hit!

Fenring

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2022, 01:56:08 PM »
I feel that most info coming from actual news desks at the networks or cable channels ARE fact based.  But these channels make more money off their opinion people, and opinions are just opinions. They cannot be fact based because they have to do with values and beliefs that are not objective.  I mean, most everyone is an objectivist when it comes to their values.  They believe they are right and the other guy is wrong.  But we can still identify an opinion because it deals with values or prescriptions rather than facts. 

Now that I have a chance to reply, there are a couple of different issues related to 'news' channels. First of which is that they capitalize on the mushy distinction between news and opinion. It's not just that they happen to carry both types of content, but that they are relying on people to accept all of it in one breath, to take in the narrative their company is selling and not sift. The other thing is that when you say the news room's reporting is fact based, you're also making a foggy statement about what is really going on. It's not like they always have investigators on scene to establish facts on the ground, not most of the time. Nowadays the gravy train often just means reprinting material handed out to many outlets, or else taking statements and repeating them. Their news is 'accurate' insofar as they are accurately reporting what someone else said, which is very different from telling accurate facts about the world. So calling it "fact based" sometimes means little more than absolving themselves of responsibility. And that's putting aside a third issue, which as everyone knows is that if you selectively report on facts you can construct pretty much any narrative you want. Putin and the Russian news like RP typically report true things from what I've seen. They are propaganda networks because of what they choose to say, not because what they say is lies. Maybe some lies are peppered in, but I don't think that's their bread and butter. They know they saying the right thing at the right time has an effect. So from this perspective the standard of "honesty" requires much more than the facts being reported being technically true.

We know, for instance, that CNN's policy for some time had been to report on Trump every chance they got, and even in the face of a new large story to get it over with quickly and get back to Trump. That's what people working there have said, flat out. Is that "dishonest"? It is to me, because at that point the "news" is really just an entertainment or clickbait system designed to increase traffic by any means necessary. They are not in the business of helping people, if you prefer to think of it that way; they are not giving people the information they need in order to be informed. It's just an algorithm - call it a proto version of Facebook - designed to punch up the numbers. At that point I don't care if the content is technically accurate, it's actually worse than an outright opinion piece. And it's not like the CNN (just as an example) talking heads have different politics than the news room does. The same board of directors oversees both.

rightleft22

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Re: Biden's appeal on misinformation & disinformation
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2022, 02:04:15 PM »
You aren't wrong about CNN. That said the majority of their programing is opinion and speculation panels talking about the news
The actual stuff from the new desk is quite different and easy to discern for those that wish to.

I think its time we stop pointing fingers and start taking responsibility for how we engage with news.