Author Topic: Alex Jones, scumbag  (Read 8471 times)

yossarian22c

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2022, 12:20:46 PM »
I admit to just checking out the headlines and what's been written here.

The celebration though seems to be because of the assumption that it's illegal, and rightfully so, to say something that might hurt someone's feelings.

Now if he purposefully sent people out there to harass them that would be something else but his lawyer says he didn't do that. Also, if he doesn't believe that it's a false flag operation but just had people on his show who believed that, that gets back to the same issue of the First Amendment. Not only can you not say something offensive but you can't even have a public conversation with anyone else who might say it.

The case looks ripe for appeal though so we'll see what happens but the public delight at the First Amendment's evisceration is concerning.

Jones lost on the merits of his case by refusing to follow the instructions of the judges for over 2 years. The only thing the civil jury's decided was the amount of the damages. And the instructions from the judge are he slandered parents whose children had been killed in a mass shooting. Jones is an unlikeable bully to the vast majority of people. And the jury was told he's guilty, how much do you want to punish him financially. Their answer was to bankrupt him.

Ye will probably get the lawsuit from the Jones family dismissed without a trial. Slander/libel lawsuits are hard.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2022, 12:25:34 PM »
On the principle, you shouldn't need to defend your disbelief in court.

That's the big issue here.

You see Trump doing it too, suing Hillary and dozens of people around her for her lies about Russian collusion. I don't see how that's any different. The only difference is that a Bill Clinton appointed judge threw out that lawsuit and awarded tens of thousands in damages against Trump for his frivolity.


msquared

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2022, 12:33:03 PM »
Because Trump was frivolous in his suit.  Sandy Hook happened. Jones called the parents crisis actors and said their grade school kids did not exist or were not killed. And he did it to make money.
Again in the US defamation is hard to prove. And Jones might won if he had gone along with the discovery. But he didn't. Why not?  He dug this hole for himself because he did not want to release his financial records.

A jury did not find him liable.  A judge did when Jones did not comply with standard court procedure of discovery. He lost because he did not want to follow the rules.

Fenring

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2022, 01:43:30 PM »
In cherry's defense I think the issue here should be more than just about whether Alex Jones it in fact the titular scumbag. But legally speaking, is it possible that the real reason he's being successfully sued for slander/liber is in fact because many people think he's a scumbag? It is because of his raucous tone, intense accusations, and generally histrionic temperament? What if someone else on some other kind of show, with a somber tone, reflective personality, and friendly disposition, had, as WS put it, said the same thing "day after day, even after he knew it wasn't true." How you can prove someone "knew" something I'm not sure, as it's quite possible for smart people to disagree with evidence presented. But putting that detail aside, I wonder how much this is happening just because of who Alex Jones is rather than what he said. But that puts a wrinkle on things: he's essentially an actor (the fact that he may in fact be similar in personality to his show personality is irrelevant) doing a show to get views and sell products. Andrew Dice Clay used to play a character in his stand-up that we'd basically now call a rapist, but that doesn't mean you can literally accuse him of rape because of what his character says. Now the real question is, in regard to 'performance media', how different is stand-up really from "news" anymore? You can watch the "news" and see canned performances, and you can go see Dave Chapelle and wonder whether it's even supposed to be a comedy show. I'm not sure where the line is, artistically.

Where things get muddy is in the relation between media and viewers. Trump is often accused of "ralling a mob" because he speaks in extreme terms and gets people revved up. But if getting people revved up is his 'character' (again, putting aside whether he is in fact personally like his character) then isn't he just performing? But then again, doesn't he have any responsibility if his words cause bad effects? But then again again, all of us use words that can have bad effects, sometimes horrible effects I imagine, even for things we think are no big deal. Should we be held to account for all of those too? I say a harsh word to someone, they go home angry, push their spouse too far, and the spouse murders them. Am I up for inciting a murder? I did in fact materially contribute to it, if you follow the simple logic, and it could have been averted if I have been more circumspect. But if we go this route, to quote Hamlet, use every man according to his desert, and who should 'scape whipping?

I dunno. I think people don't understand yet the mutual relationship we all have with each other. Everyone wants to find out "who" is "responsible" for a bad thing happening. In Jones' case maybe it's kind of obvious that his screaming fans were pursuing these families and making them miserable directly because of what Jones said. But...why were they such miserable sods that a guy like Jones could get them to do that? I've watched Jones in the past, never went out attacking anyone. There are other issues in play too, such as MSM contributions to the mythos of shootings, whether copycats get their ideas from media lionization, and even the actual possibility that a false flag could occur (whether or not it did in this case). When your government lies to you enough you start to get the idea that maybe people are lying to you all the time. Who's "responsible" for that?

Wayward Son

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2022, 03:01:34 PM »
There is certainly a gray area between free speech and harmful speech; between saying it's too hot in a crowded theater and yelling "FIRE!" :)  Comics can get away with hyperbolic jokes because there is a basic understanding that they don't literally mean what they are saying--they're "joking."  There are a number of beliefs the people hold that come under the heading of "opinion"--ideas that cannot be proven or disproven, but depend on unknowable factors like the belief in the integrity of the person, belief in what they were thinking, and the outcome of complex processes that are not fully understood.  And I understand the desire to protect these kinds of speech.

This is not one of them.

Alex Jones was not joking.  He fully expected his audience to believe what he was saying.
Alex Jones did not believe what he was saying.  He admitted privately as much.
Alex Jones knew the harm he was causing by lying.  He did not stop or modify what he was saying when he heard about people confronting and harassing these grieving parents.  He continued his screeds even after he heard.
Alex Jones continued to do this to make money, and did not give a damn about what it was doing to the parents of these dead children.  In a sense, he was dancing on the graves of these children and spitting in the faces of their parents.

I understand your concern of a slippery slope, cherry.  But what you ever considered the other slope?  The one where people can tell any lies they want to about others, destroy other people's characters, other people's lives, and not have any legal responsibility for it.  Where someone could say you **** your children, tell everyone you know, put it on billboards with your picture, say he'd swear it in court, and you'd have no legal recourse.  Where you'd get fired from your job, divorced, and beaten up or worse, simply because people believed him more than they believed you.  And he knew he was lying.  Where it is perfectly legal for him to do so, because he has money and an audience, and you don't.

That's the world Alex Jones wants.  That's the one he thought he was living in.  Why the hell do you want to live in that world with him?  ???

NobleHunter

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2022, 03:07:19 PM »
In Jones' case, he was successfully sued because he told the courts to go *censored* themselves. The size of the damages are possibly because he's a scumbag but they could also reflect the intensely personal nature of the harm he did and that he has a lot of money (or at least appears to have a lot of money). If I wanted to punish someone for telling parents of a dead six-year-old that they're just crises actors and they don't have a dead kid and made millions doing it, I'd impose a penalty he couldn't pay out of pocket change.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2022, 03:26:36 PM »
Is he being punished for what he said though or for the actions of crazy people who heard what he said and presumably violated the law by harassing family members of the Sandy Hook shooting?

Hypothetically, let's say he said everything he said and then nobody did anything. People listened and either nodded or shook their heads and that was it.

Is there a lawsuit? Does the lawsuit get dismissed out of hand or does the same thing happen as what did happen?

Is he being punished for what he said or for the way people reacted to it?

That's going to the Kanye lawsuit which happening right on the heels of the Jones verdict doesn't seem to be a coincidence. Kanye said something the family, along with many others, disagreed with. Nobody harassed the family about it.

As far as I know, there is no way to conclusively, scientifically prove exactly what killed George Floyd. He had Covid, meth, fentanyl, and a cop all there interacting. In stories the media trots out the fact that the "expert" said that it was the cop and not the drugs that killed Floyd (and nobody even mentions Covid) as if that proves something. That doesn't prove anything. Trial experts are often on both sides diametrically contradicting each other. And a jury verdict doesn't really prove anything either because the left points out that innocent people get convicted all the time. So should it essentially be illegal (if you can win a 250 million dollar lawsuit for it) to say that you think the fentanyl and meth probably killed Floyd?

How much different is what Alex Jones said from some of the things the Westboro Baptist Church said and then actually did, shouting and carrying signs at veterans' funerals saying they deserved it because of the don't ask don't tell policy (or whatever their deal was; I didn't get that much into it). They were intentionally and maliciously inflicting emotional distress. Was what they were saying true? Did God smite those veterans because gay tolerance? Do they have to prove they believe what they say and if a judge and jury decide that they don't do they get sued and lose a billion dollar judgement?

Just looked up their case and it looks like it went 8-1 in favor of free speech at the Supreme Court.

https://www.uscourts.gov/educational-resources/educational-activities/facts-and-case-summary-snyder-v-phelps

I'm not seeing how that's fundamentally different from the Alex Jones case and in the ways that it's different it seems like it favors Jones because for one thing he wasn't personally harassing the victims.

Like y'all said, if Jones had defended himself in court maybe he would have won. But the main point is people are glad that he didn't and it seems like they'd prefer he still lose even if he did defend himself with the best arguments and evidence in court.

I'd be curious if any effort was made to go after the people actually personally harassing the victims if what they did was against the law. Of course none of them probably had deep pockets, but still it'd be strange not to charge them with crimes and sue them if what they did was illegal.

yossarian22c

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2022, 03:41:22 PM »
...
I'm not seeing how that's fundamentally different from the Alex Jones case and in the ways that it's different it seems like it favors Jones because for one thing he wasn't personally harassing the victims.

Like y'all said, if Jones had defended himself in court maybe he would have won. But the main point is people are glad that he didn't and it seems like they'd prefer he still lose even if he did defend himself with the best arguments and evidence in court.
....

Yes people are glad when a man who chose to lie and profit adding to the pain and suffering of people who's 5 and 6 year old children were killed loses a defamation suit. He's the lowest of the f-ing low. He profits off lies and sowing division in society. And as you acknowledge he lost because he told the court to go to hell. Sorry you don't get to tell the court to screw off that they have no jurisdiction over you. Ke likely gets his suit tossed pretty easily. If I'm remembering correctly Floyd had drugs in his system at the time. Ke isn't a medical expert. Saying you think the drugs killed him instead of the video showing someone slowing suffocating him by kneeling on his neck, then your an idiot, but being an idiot who isn't making up and profiting off of complete lies won't find you liable for defamation in the USA. Remember you can sue people for almost any stupid reason you want. Winning a lawsuit is a different matter. The odds of Ke losing this lawsuit or it even reaching a trial is almost zero if he finds a competent attorney and listens to them.

msquared

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2022, 03:45:55 PM »
This is basically your defense for Trump for Jan 6 right?  We can not hold Trump responsible for enflaming the crowd to riot at the Capital. Trump did not go into the building so he has no responsibility for what happened.

A combination of factors probably lead to his death, the major one being the cop kneeling on his neck for 10 minutes.  He was not dying just a few minutes before. So what changed? A cop kneeling on his neck for 10 minutes.  No, we do not know that Floyd might not have had a heart attack 20 minutes later and died from that. But he never lived that long.  The cop kneeling on his neck for 10 minutes did happen.

I am not glad Jones did not defend himself. I wish he had so we could have seen even more what a scumbag he is.  And yes I would have been glad to see him lose if he defended himself.  I think he defamed those parents. He knowing lied about them to make money, showing callous disregard for their well being.

For calling himself a Christian, Jones sure behaves in an unChristian like manner.


Why are you really so invested with this defense of Jones? For all of the research you do into other areas, maybe take a look at what he did and what he encouraged other to do to these families. Listen to the testimony of the parents and what they went through. And then realize Jones did not put on any type of defense. Why not?  Maybe because he knew he had no defense. He knew he had defamed those parents.
 

Tom

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2022, 03:54:00 PM »
"Is he being punished for what he said though or for the actions of crazy people who heard what he said..."
Mainly the first, but a little of the second. Defamation is bad in and of itself, but it's worse when it's incitement.

Seriously, though, get the heck off the Kanye kick. That's a completely separate and unrelated suit and won't help you understand the Jones decision.

--------------

That said, the Westboro Baptist case is an interesting one, because you can absolutely -- and, IMO, compellingly -- argue that carrying signs like "God hates you and wants you to die" is indeed incitement, although it's hard to claim defamation. But the truth is that we have as a country always bent over backwards to fellate Christians and give them every possible bit of leeway. (I say "Christians" specifically because I guarantee you that if a Muslim group were to carry signs saying "Sharia demands that you lose one of your eyes," they would not get away so easily.)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2022, 03:57:32 PM by Tom »

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2022, 05:44:05 PM »
"Why are you really so invested with this defense of Jones?"

I just like to know where the line is between what is legal and what is illegal. I guess I don't like the grey areas where we don't know if what we're doing is illegal or not.

In the Jones case we still don't really know but it's also interesting to know what people think should be illegal. Where they think the line is.

And for Jones it's looking like it should be illegal to say you think a mass shooting is a false flag hoax perpetrated by the government using crisis actors.

I just wouldn't have thought most people would say that you shouldn't have a right to say that but especially people on the left.

Now I agree it's a ridiculous thing to say. Saying the same thing about 9-11 would be even more ridiculous. Calling the families of all the 9-11 victims liars who are also thieves because they took millions in government compensation money is even more defamatory. There's even more evidence that 9-11 happened too, obviously. But should it be illegal for someone to believe it didn't and say so? Should it even be illegal for someone to believe it did happen but say it didn't anyway? What if a bunch of lunatics listened to that person and started calling up the family members of 9-11 victims saying they are paid crisis actors? I mean it'd all just be crazy but I'm not seeing how you can go back to the guy who said 9-11 is a hoax with the government using crisis actors and colluding with the media to frame a narrative for the war machine to make a ton of money invading several countries in the Middle-East and then you blame that guy and he deserves to lose hundreds of millions of dollars in a lawsuit.

And there probably are people out there claiming 9-11 never happened. What is their liability? Are lawsuits against them protected from being called frivolous because of the Jones case?

Should the Jones case be the end of it all or should it just be the beginning?

For the record I believe the 9-11 attack and the Sandy Hook shooting both actually happened. I just don't know that it should be illegal to say that they didn't.

Wayward Son

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2022, 05:44:54 PM »
Quote
Is he being punished for what he said though or for the actions of crazy people who heard what he said and presumably violated the law by harassing family members of the Sandy Hook shooting?

Hypothetically, let's say he said everything he said and then nobody did anything. People listened and either nodded or shook their heads and that was it.

Is there a lawsuit? Does the lawsuit get dismissed out of hand or does the same thing happen as what did happen?

Is he being punished for what he said or for the way people reacted to it?

Sounds like you were a staunch defender of Charles Manson, cherry.

After all, he never killed anyone.  Just because some crazy people took what he said seriously wasn't his fault...  ;)

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2022, 06:04:30 PM »
I wouldn't go so far as to defend Manson. Just looked up his case on wikipedia and there seem to be numerous differences between him and Jones.

For one thing, as everyone is saying Jones is a civil case while the Manson case was criminal.

For sure I think there are limits on the First Amendment and I agree that Manson stepped way over those limits and deserved the death penalty he originally received.

It's interesting though that if people agree that what Jones said was illegal, should he be criminally charged by the government and if convicted by a jury get a prison sentence?

If what he did wasn't illegal enough to get a prison sentence then how is it illegal enough to get  1.4 billion dollars in damages awarded? And if it's legal to say it then how are there any damages at all?

I understand the case was never really tried per se but it's just nice to know which side of the law you stand on. Obviously Jones thought he was safe on one side of it whereas it's looking more and more like he was sadly mistaken. I'd just like a real court case so we know for sure.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2022, 06:12:23 PM »
We could easily get down to the bottom line here with one simple question.

Should it be illegal to say that the Sandy Hook shooting was a hoax?


cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2022, 06:19:35 PM »
If it's illegal for Jones to say it because of who he is compared to some nut shouting on a street corner, that's almost looking like a writ of attainder.

"Under English law the act of attainder declared a person or a group of persons guilty of a serious crime and punished them without the benefit of a judicial trial. Also the person could no longer own property or pass property to his family by will or testament."


Tom

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2022, 06:43:29 PM »
Quote
Should it be illegal to say that the Sandy Hook shooting was a hoax?
It should be illegal to knowingly falsely say that the purported parents of children murdered at Sandy Hook were just faking it, yes. That's textbook defamation.

Wayward Son

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2022, 06:48:30 PM »
And defamation, while a not criminal offense, is a serious civil offense, as those who have been found guilty can attest.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2022, 07:21:23 PM »
"Defamation is the act of communicating to a third party false statements about a person, place or thing that results in damage to its reputation. It can be spoken or written. It constitutes a tort or a crime."

By that definition saying the moon landing is a hoax is illegal.

This definition differs from yours Tom because it doesn't even require knowing or believing that the statements are false.

If a jury is convinced that the moon landing happened and you say that it didn't then you have no first amendment right to say that.

Jones is saying that now he knows what he said was false and irresponsible but I didn't see him admit that he knew it at the time he made the claims and said them anyway.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/defamation

"To prove prima facie defamation, a plaintiff must show four things: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact; 2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person; 3) fault amounting to at least negligence; and 4) damages, or some harm caused to the reputation of the person or entity who is the subject of the statement."

We may need to go into the weeds here.

So it looks like most of what I'm talking about would be fine because it wouldn't meet the first criterion. All you need to do is not purport it to be fact. You just purport it to be your opinion.

I actually don't listen to Jones so I don't know exactly what he said, but I wonder if he would have been okay if he'd just said that, "Hey man, I don't believe it happened." Instead, perhaps what he said was more along the lines of, "Yeah that did NOT happen and it's a fact. Total hoax. Paid crisis actors. No doubt about it and it's provably a false flag operation."

And then if he doesn't have all his ducks in a row to prove what he said that's a big problem for him.

If that's how it went down then I can agree with him losing a defamation lawsuit even in a court case.

---------------------------------------------------

I'm not a lawyer though so I don't know for sure.

I'm guessing that would be the difference between saying something like, "Yeah based on what I've seen in the news both Bill Clinton and Joe Biden are rapists because I believe the victims like Kathleen Willey and Tara Reid but there's probably no way to ever know for sure what really happened" which would be protected speech versus saying that they are both rapists and that's a fact, Jack, in which case you might be successfully sued. Or saying something like I saw on the wifi networks around town like WillSlappedMeToo which may not be protected unless it is protected as a joke.


cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2022, 07:29:18 PM »
Apparently, criminal defamation laws are still on the books in some states.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/map-states-criminal-laws-against-defamation

I guess Alex Jones really crossed the line if even the ACLU isn't saying anything in his defense.

I saw some stuff with them squealing a little about his media bans but nothing on the defamation case.

NobleHunter

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2022, 07:29:29 PM »
Damages is not an inconsequential bar either. I think you usually need to show direct monetary damages or potential loss.

For the Buzz Aldrin example, it'd be pretty difficult for him to show that he lost money or his reputation was damaged by any statements about the moon landing.

Weasel words have long been a defence against defamation. "Alledged" is a popular one. Insults are also a way out as they are considered opinions rather than statements of fact. "This guy is a *censored*ing loser" is not actionable while "this guy is a cheater and a fraud" could be.

Tom

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2022, 07:46:00 PM »
Fox News is infamous for their use of "people are saying."

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2022, 07:49:18 PM »
Well somebody asked for a Jones defense and though it may have failed in the end it was probably about the best that could have been achieved under the circumstances. I think I'm about ready to wash my hands of him now.

msquared

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2022, 10:15:38 PM »
Cherry

One more comment. You seem to keep confusing criminal guilt with civil liability.  He has not been found guilty of any crime. The State brings criminal charges.

He has been found liable in a civil trial. The main difference is that in a civil trial there is no chance of jail time, only monetary damages. And it is not the Government doing the suing, but, in this case, a private individual.  It could also be a company on either side (for example the Dominion vs Fox defamation suit).

Now as you said there may be criminal defamation laws on the books somewhere, but they are almost never used. All of these cases have been civil cases.

And in these cases the level of proof is by a preponderance of the evidence instead of beyond a reasonable doubt. A much easier bar to reach, especially if the guy getting sued does not defend himself.


Fenring

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2022, 11:33:55 PM »
I actually agree with cherry that in a scenario like this (facing successful lawsuits for stating one's opinion about a fact pattern) it makes little or no difference that it's a civil vs criminal proceeding. If your life can effectively be destroyed by motions brought through the court system, it is effectively banned by the state in every important sense. And in fact, we've seen some evidence that even in the private sector there are certain types of threat (physical harm, ostracization, firing, etc) which will cow most people into submission even without the participation of government. In both cases the question is whether you really have the 'right' to say these things, if the actual reality is that you'll be blown out of the water if you do so. It's not much of a protection to tell something they technically can do a thing but they'll face steep consequences. That is illegal in all but name. I will note when saying this that "law" does not only reside in the hands of judges but in any applicable of punishment according to a dictate, so long as that application is allowed to stand. For instance if a gang punished you for going near their turf, and the state offered no objection to this, it is in every important sense 'illegal' for you to go on their turf. The local law, created and applied by the gang, is allowed to stand. And so it goes for any application of soft or hard force to coerce certain behaviors. I realize that there's a grey line between socialization and coercion, where any social pressure (for example to be polite) is a use of force with implied consequences for deviating, but when the repercussion becomes so severe (and so public) that one deviation will result in the end of your life as you know it, that isn't a faux pas but rather a 'crime'. I suppose if there was a society that would utterly ostracize someone for a single instance of rudeness then any deviation from any prescribed behaviors there would be illegal.

I'm sort of joining cherry's devil's advocate position, as I have no special interest in defending Jones on any basis. But I find his question interesting in the abstract, about exactly what material damage his words caused such that the plaintiffs need redress from him personally. Offending them doesn't sound like it should count, no matter how offended they are. Even hurting their feelings shouldn't count, unless it could be proved that his directed malicious and personal animus toward specific individuals (you can't assault 'a group' in the abstract). If the idea is he's committed libel by defaming the character of the plaintiffs, wouldn't damages of the required sort have to be shown, i.e. they lost employment or public respect in their community because of it? I guess I'd have to read all the legal issues to see what exactly the case was based on. As far as I can tell the reporting makes it sound like "Alex Jones sued for saying untruths repeatedly."

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2022, 10:16:31 AM »
Yup. You get it totally. Made my points even better than I did.


cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2022, 10:41:19 AM »
From "The process is the punishment" department.

We hear it said that you can get sued for anything.

But is that literally true?

Go to the extreme. Let's say you're walking down the street and you just glance at somebody on the other side of the street, just for a moment, and keep walking. Can they sue you for that?

So they file a lawsuit and I'm not sure about the procedure but in their complaint they honestly state their case that you looked at them and they didn't like it. It caused them to feel uncomfortable and then they became emotionally distressed. They experienced psychological pain.

So what would happen?

Do they get the proverbial "laughing out of court"?

Or does the person who just glanced at a stranger from across the street have to waste days of their time and thousands of dollars going to court and hiring a lawyer to defend themselves from something that is clearly not illegal?

What if we escalate? What if you waved and said, "Hi!" and then you had a lawsuit filed against you? Would you have to go through the process or would the court aka the government tell the person to get lost and you never even hear anything about it or never have to do anything about it?

Maybe we need the precedent set first. Then when courts get cases after that they just dismiss them out of hand as I just assume they do now with parodies after the Weird Al Supreme Court decision. Somebody sues you for making a parody song and video and what happens? Do you have to defend yourself or has Weird Al already defended you so you are fully protected, even from the punishment of the process?

In the Alex Jones case, if he isn't protected from the punishment of the process then even if it might eventually be determined that it's "technically legal" for him to say what he said, for all practical purposes it's illegal.

Why is that? Because if you say well it's legal all you have to do is spend tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers and months or years of your time in court defending yourself from a frivolous lawsuit that in the end you'll win because you didn't commit a crime, then that's illegal in all but name. That's the gang saying yeah it's legal for you to cross this street but I'll take all of the money out of your wallet, your watch, and your phone and there's nothing you'll be able to do about it.

Having these gray areas of the law is not a good look for a smoothly running society.

LetterRip

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2022, 10:57:51 AM »
It wasn't "technically legal" - defamation is illegal but it is both a civil and criminal crime, where the criminal variant is rarely pursued (and most states have repealed their criminal statutes in favor of just civil).

These weren't opinions they were factual claims with reckless disregard for the truth.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2022, 11:25:41 AM »
If the case eventually goes to court, maybe the Supreme Court, and the decision ends up in favor of Jones then it is technically legal. We still don't know because no court has made a decision on the merits of the case.

But even if the Supreme Court does decide it's legal if you can still get sued into oblivion then for all practical purposes it would still be illegal for most people if they aren't willing to pony up the time and money to defend themselves from a litany of lawsuits.

NobleHunter

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #78 on: November 12, 2022, 11:33:40 AM »
In the case of someone suing over glance, it would be laughed out of court. Various states have further measures in place to protect people from frivolous lawsuits.  If there's the possibility of legitimate tort but there's no actually basis for a suit (the harmful statement is obviously true for example), then there's often a quick and cheap way for the suit to be dismissed. If a person keeps filing frivolous lawsuits, I think most states have rules in place to sanction them.

msquared

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2022, 11:34:44 AM »
Not sure if a civil action can go to the SC. Also,  I don't think he has no grounds for appealing the verdict. He lost by default. He can not claim an issue at trial since there was no real trial.

Again, remember, he might have won this case if he had actually gone to trial. But that would have required him to follow  the rules of discovery, and he did not want to do that. He might be able to appeal the amounts of the verdict.  IANAL, but I think he has no appeal for the liable verdict at all.

Again I wonder why he didn't do the discovery phase? Why didn't he supply the plaintiffs with the info he was required to supply? What was he hiding?

He is like a murderer who kills his parents and them pleads for mercy since he is an orphan.

Tom

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2022, 11:38:45 AM »
The broader question of "can frivolous lawsuits still harm the accused party" can of course be answered "yes." Trump, for example, has acquired a reputation for instantly countersuing anyone who tried to sue him to collect on debts, and then demand incredibly onerous documentation during the discovery phase to essentially force anyone without a law firm on retainer to bankrupt themselves with legal fees before even making it to court. He'd then just try to run out the clock, delaying the actual trial while still forcing his victim to bill hours against their lawyer(s). The trick is to make it the original suit just this side of viable, so that it isn't thrown out immediately.

Fenring

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2022, 01:22:44 PM »
It wasn't "technically legal" - defamation is illegal but it is both a civil and criminal crime, where the criminal variant is rarely pursued (and most states have repealed their criminal statutes in favor of just civil).

These weren't opinions they were factual claims with reckless disregard for the truth.

That is my question, though: did he defame them individually? Like, if he says "the Sandy Hook parents" is that defamation against a particular individual who tries to sue him? Did he name that person by name? And likewise, doesn't defamation require damages to be shown, like proof the person was in fact defamed? For instance let's say I start a podcast with zero followers and say that so and so is a liar. Can they sue me for defamation if literally nobody had their opinion of that person lowered?

msquared

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2022, 01:31:24 PM »
Testimony from the parents at the liability portion of the trial covered all of this.

Maybe you guys should do a bit more research into what Jones actually did. The years of false claims. And I would think that in a case where there are only so many victims/families, a general "The Sandy Hook parents are fake and crisis actors" when the names of the victims were well known, would be enough to say he targeted specific people, with out naming particular names.

Fenring

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2022, 01:37:19 PM »
To be fair I'm actually less interested in the details of this case and more interested generally in the ability for something to be de facto banned regardless of what the law says. It's more of a broad concern for me.

msquared

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2022, 01:43:44 PM »
Except in the law, details matter. This has been through the court system.  There have been no findings other than Jones is liable.  In both cases so far (and probably in the third).Basically he is not defending himself because he has no defense. He defamed these people for monetary gain. He did not submit the discovery evidence probably because it would actually show  how much money he made off of these actions and show he new, even then, that Sandy Hook was real and that he was just using it as a cover to grift his listeners/followers.

Fenring

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2022, 01:57:05 PM »
Except in the law, details matter. This has been through the court system.  There have been no findings other than Jones is liable.  In both cases so far (and probably in the third).Basically he is not defending himself because he has no defense. He defamed these people for monetary gain. He did not submit the discovery evidence probably because it would actually show  how much money he made off of these actions and show he new, even then, that Sandy Hook was real and that he was just using it as a cover to grift his listeners/followers.

I would probably need to be a lawyer to sift the minutiae even if I studied all transcripts intently. For instance what's the legal separation between being wrong repeatedly and lying repeatedly? Does the court proceeding have to prove knowledge in someone's mind to make that distinction? I'm not sure studying the case in greater detail would clarify this point to me. Since we're talking about "what someone knows", you are now dealing with the intricacies of the mind. You can take a schizophrenic who "knows" something abstractly but "believes" something else contradictory to it with conviction. Is that person "lying"? It's tough to even say what the word means, exactly. I would have thought for a tort case the grounds are simply damages plus proof the person said the damaging and incorrect thing (since truth is a defense). Whether that person knew it to be false or thought it was true but nonetheless caused the damages - does that really matter? Maybe in the amount of penalties, but surely not about whether the person is guilty of it or not.

I find there to be a potential slippery slope here, which could amount to be being illegal to believe in conspiracy theories generally. For instance if you say you think the moon landing was faked, you would by inference (according to your logic) obviously be implying that Buzz Aldrin & co were in on the lie. Could they individually sue you for defamation for saying you think the landing was faked, even though you didn't name them or even say you think the astronauts are liars? But your statement of belief necessarily implies that, does it not? Can Dick Cheney sue you for defamation for being a 9/11 truther? Can the head of the CIA sue you for saying you think the CIA knocks over foreign governments?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #86 on: November 12, 2022, 02:48:24 PM »
"I find there to be a potential slippery slope here, which could amount to be being illegal to believe in conspiracy theories generally."

This was exactly the direction my train of thought was heading.

This won't apply anymore to Alex Jones since he recanted but what about his followers?

If he is guilty then aren't they even more guilty especially if they say the government got to him and turned him but they are still out there making the same claims that got Jones in so much trouble?

So let's say Jones stuck to his guns, hypothetically. Or we can say it concretely as it applies to people who still say the same things Jones allegedly illegally said.

But for me so I don't get into the same trouble Jones did, hypothetically and abstractly (not about any particular shooting), let's say there is a mass shooting in the news.

Now someone says it's all fake. The government in order to gin up support to abolish or severely restrict the 2nd Amendment and institute gun confiscation got a bunch of agents, hired crisis actors or people on the government payroll, to fake this whole thing. They also controlled the media. Nobody actually died except for maybe some of the people who tried to reveal the hoax and were "jumped off of buildings" Putin style or suicided in various ways by drug overdoses, car accidents, Covid, or the like.

Basically, someone is a nut and took a dive off the deep end.

Now are we able to lawsuit them into bankruptcy and in some states put them in prison for libel and slander, defamation and intentional infliction of emotional distress?

And the other thing is if you go for discovery, ask them to prove their claims, well obviously they will say that's impossible because the government has covered up all of the evidence and even if they could expose the conspiracy, for instance if they were on the inside, they would be promptly assassinated and it would be made to look like an accident.

So there is no way for them to prove it's true but conversely, as it often is with proving a negative, it's also impossible to prove, to them at least, that it's false or a lie.

So where do we draw the line as far as what crazy ideas you're allowed to talk about?

By the way, I'm not sure what the money has to do with anything. Sure there are laws about if you murder someone you can't profit off of it by writing a book and doing interviews later, but this is nowhere near that. If Jones committed no crime in saying the things he did then it doesn't matter under the law how much money he did or didn't make off of it. Of course if he did break the law saying those things the money is important so you can seize the assets and such, but until after he is convicted that shouldn't matter at all as to whether or not what he actually said was illegal.

The moon landing is also a great example. How do you prove that someone believes it actually happened short of taking them there so they can see for themselves? But even then that would only prove it's possible now, not that it happened back then. It's tough to prove a negative and even tougher to prove that someone is lying when they say they believe something even if it seems crazy to most people. And it gets even tougher when the fact is every now and then those crazy people turn out to be actually be right as numerous conspiracy theories have eventually proven to be fact.

Tom

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #87 on: November 12, 2022, 02:52:51 PM »
Quote
So where to do draw the line as far as what crazy ideas you're allowed to talk about?
If you accuse people of crimes, they are within their rights to demand that you present proof or shut up. If you do neither, you may be liable for damages.

I was once falsely accused of rape by a girl I dated briefly in college (but never actually had sex with). Her claims cost me a position as an RA and membership in two clubs. I sued her for slander and she eventually withdrew her accusations, but I did not pursue it any further because it would have been enormously difficult to a) prove financial damages; and b) prove, months after the fact, that we never had sex.

What keeps most public figures from suing people for slander or libel all the time is that it's actually fairly time-consuming and rather financially unrewarding. Other countries with harsher libel penalties see libel suits much more frequently.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #88 on: November 12, 2022, 03:43:13 PM »
That is a quandary because I actually do believe that people who we can prove knowingly accused someone of rape should get the same prison sentence the rapist would have gotten, at least. The popular example, popular since they made a movie out of it, is the Brian Banks case.

That is a bit different though because for the most part we would think that somebody would know whether or not they've been raped. I suppose even as I type that I realize that even then we would think no such thing. Short of a confession like in the Banks case it's hard to prove what someone actually believes. We saw that with the Kavanaugh accusation.

There was even a conspiracy theory that she might have been hypnotized.

https://www.salon.com/2018/09/25/pirro-suggests-kavanaugh-accuser-underwent-hypnosis-ive-never-seen-so-many-repressed-memory-cases/

Going to do a lot of wading in the deep end here. You have yourself hypnotized and have the false memory of a rape implanted by a co-conspirator so you can pass a lie detector and you actually do believe everything you say including all of the details as they were implanted so you sound convincing because you yourself are convinced it's all true. Obviously, the hypnotizer would erase any memory of you agreeing to any of this and any memory of the hypnoses, assuming you even agreed to it at all and it wasn't done pharmaceutically and non-consensually. I even saw some talk that Ford was an expert on false memories which you would expect as a professor at the Stanford University School of Medicine Collaborative Clinical Psychology Program.

That idea can even swing back around to Jones and the crisis actors with some whacko conspiracy theory that the children were stolen by the government and the parents hypnotized into believing their children were dead, or maybe not even hypnotized but the government used special effects to make it look like the children were dead just for the identification and funeral, or just go dive all the way off the deep end into the Mariana Trench, going full Total Recall, and say the government hypnotized the people to believe everything they are saying even if they never had any children at all. Of course all the records were falsified and images and videos deep faked.

In that case, you wouldn't be defaming them at all or calling them liars. They would all be victims of the government deception the same as, or even more than, anyone else.

But that all gets back to whether or not conspiracy theories are protected speech. If Jones is guilty, then they are not. We're criminalizing crazy.

And that leads to another conspiracy theory that "they" are coming down so hard on Jones with this case that obviously actually happened so everyone is in favor of him getting ban-hammered but the real purpose is to silence conspiracy theorists going forward so when the government really does pull a Reichstag nobody will be able to talk about it.

msquared

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #89 on: November 12, 2022, 03:57:20 PM »
In this case the crazies are not out for money. Jones was. The crazies go to jail for doing crazy things (like showing up and harrasing people, just like they think Jones told them to do).

Fenring

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #90 on: November 13, 2022, 12:52:01 AM »
In this case the crazies are not out for money. Jones was. The crazies go to jail for doing crazy things (like showing up and harrasing people, just like they think Jones told them to do).

That doesn't answer the issue of standing and whether Dick Cheney can sue a 9/11 truther for defamation, since obviously it implies he's a liar. Where is the line about suing for defamation when someone calls out a narrative as false?

Mynnion

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #91 on: November 13, 2022, 07:33:58 AM »
Quote
Quote from: msquared on November 12, 2022, 03:57:20 PM
In this case the crazies are not out for money. Jones was. The crazies go to jail for doing crazy things (like showing up and harrasing people, just like they think Jones told them to do).

That doesn't answer the issue of standing and whether Dick Cheney can sue a 9/11 truther for defamation, since obviously it implies he's a liar. Where is the line about suing for defamation when someone calls out a narrative as false?

I would say Dick Cheney I a bad choice of victims since he would have a devil of a time proving he was damaged by these comments.  Jones not only knowingly lied about SH but continued to do so as his crazies began the harassment of the parents.  He didn't bother to defend himself in court because he knew there was no defense.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2022, 07:48:46 AM »
So is the charge defamation or is it incitement?

As far as I know Alex Jones wasn't charged with incitement and yet that is what he's being punished for while being charged for defamation.

If he said the exact same things he said but nobody harassed the families of the victims, is he guilty of a crime?

So is our freedom of speech limited by what some crazy person might do after they hear what we say?

If mobs of raving lunatics start harassing Dick Cheney and the family members of 9-11 victims, is that the point at which it becomes illegal to be a 9-11 Truther and then we go back and charge everyone who said it was a hoax with defamation and put billion dollar civil judgements against them while the public cheers because that's what the 9-11 Truthers deserve?

msquared

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2022, 07:57:20 AM »
He is not being charged for incitement and he was not found guilty. He was found liable. I know you like equating the two but they are different. He faces no jail time for this. Why do you keep trying to make this a criminal action?  It was a civil action with a much lower bar of proof. I know it does not play into your victim stance for Jones, but he is not the victim here.

Fenring

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2022, 10:28:53 AM »
I would say Dick Cheney I a bad choice of victims since he would have a devil of a time proving he was damaged by these comments.  Jones not only knowingly lied about SH but continued to do so as his crazies began the harassment of the parents.  He didn't bother to defend himself in court because he knew there was no defense.

Actually I would say that Cheney's reputation was probably hurt by various theories and accusations following 9/11. The most obvious example of which (in a parallel conspiracy theory) is the accusation that they lied about WMD's to invade Iraq. Bush and Cheney definitely had reputational damage based on these types of theories. But that's not really my question. My question is can someone involved in a scenario sue anyone who says they believe a conspiracy theory about the event? If so, that would mean anyone involved has standing to sue anyone who ever says anything negative about the event, or implies there was a conspiracy or bad behavior. It basically means you risk being shut down by lawsuits for using speech to say what you think of an event. I know the Jones case is pernicious, but I am talking about similar cases but where the defendant isn't a scumbag. That's why I wondered above how much of his 'legal liability' really just rests in the fact of people not liking him.

NobleHunter

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2022, 10:54:18 AM »
Traditional conspiracy theories don't name specific people. They're about the CIA, the Jews, the Mafia, or whoever. You can't defame the CIA. The typical conspiracy theorist also isn't knowingly making false statements (yes, that's hard to prove, it's why if you lose a defamation suit in the US, you've probably done something egregious).

Cheney can't prove damages. How has he lost money? What has 9/11 theories cost him? There's also a higher burden for defaming public figures but I don't remember how exactly that it works.

LetterRip

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2022, 11:15:48 AM »
Fenring,

the provided known false stateements to the UN that Iraq had mobile WMD labs, and known false claims that the aluminum tubes were for centrifuges, that is otherwise known as lying about WMDs.  So they absolutely did lie beyond any reasonable doubt.

They also knew that the claims about uranium purchases was not credible.

They deliberately set up a group to contravene the normal intelligence vetting so that the lies they wanted as justification wouldn't be filtered out.

Truth is an absolute defense against defamation in the US.

Fenring

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #97 on: November 13, 2022, 11:36:32 AM »
Yes, LR, but more broadly with conspiracy theories usually there is no proof either way, so you are essentially 'defaming' the people involved if you call BS on something. Like back in the 60's, if you said JFK was an inside job, and called attention to the goings on with the body right after and on the plane, etc etc. Long story short there is plenty of room for the theory, little proof, and several people who, if you bought into the conspiracy theory, you'd be calling liars and worse. Now back then people didn't freak out over Twitter and other social media when someone was upset over something, so the kind of people Alex Jones unleashed likely wouldn't have existed if he'd said the same stuff about something similar 60 years ago. But if you fast forwarded JFK to today, could you be subject to civil suits for calling BS on how JFK was handled after he was shot? If so it sounds like a serious de facto curtailment of the 1st. I know each particular conspiracy theory is apples to oranges, so I'm trying to extract out a general principle, which is that if you claim something is being covered up you are automatically calling everyone involved a liar. And if people hear you say so and get upset at those people (or even if they don't, really), now the offended party can sue you? The question of damages is relevant, obviously.

NH, when you say you've probably done something egregious to lose a defamation suit, in Jones' case do you think that egregious behavior lies in the followers who harassed the plaintiffs, or in your opinion does the culpability lie directly in the fact that Jones said they were crisis actors? Would that liability still exist if no followers had heard him say so and harassed the plaintiffs?

NobleHunter

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #98 on: November 13, 2022, 11:59:54 AM »
In Jones' case it was failing to comply with discovery. I also find publicly calling parents of dead six-year-olds crisis actors is pretty egregious. Especially when you keep doing it after you know they've been harassed. It's not as if Jones' made a podcast or a youtube video and got hit with a suit the next day. He had plenty of opportunities to shut up and stop being a scumbag.

His followers are culpable for whatever acts they committed but that doesn't absolve Jones' of responsibility for his own words. Defamation requires communication of the falsehoods. The person doing the defaming doesn't get to skate by saying "while I didn't decide to fire you."


cherrypoptart

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Re: Alex Jones, scumbag
« Reply #99 on: November 13, 2022, 03:01:10 PM »
For the purposes of whether something said is legal or illegal I see no distinction between civil and criminal law. Either way, it's still legal or it's still illegal. Whether you go to prison or have to pay a billion dollars, you still would rather know in advance before saying something that those could be the consequences and also know in advance that if you are free to say something and there's no chance that'll happen, no chance you'll go to jail and no chance you'll have to pay a billion dollars. I'm not sure how people are so comfortable in this situation where the only way to find out if it's legal or illegal to say something is to say it and then see what happens.

The Jones case is just the jumping off point for the discussion. It's also largely irrelevant though that the billion dollars he has to pay is because of failure to follow court orders.

The relevant point is whether or not the lawsuit is allowed in the first place. If the lawsuit is allowed at all and he has to hire a lawyer then the result is that free speech is curtailed.

So that's the bottom line. Should the lawsuit even be allowed at all?

That this lawsuit even went to the discovery phase is more important than any of the other points. It means it's not definitively free speech protected by the First Amendment. And that means that you'd better not say it unless you want to end up in the same position as Jones because even before he refused to comply with discovery he already lost, not the case necessarily but more time and money than it's worth just to indulge in some talk about a conspiracy theory, at least in the cost - benefit analysis of most people.