Author Topic: Trump looses again  (Read 19569 times)

Tom

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #100 on: July 26, 2022, 12:57:14 AM »
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Don't accept my interpretations.
For once, I agree with William. Don't accept his interpretations.

jc44

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #101 on: July 26, 2022, 06:40:28 AM »
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.
Could you give me sources and dates on that?

Wikipedias article on Copernicus states:
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In March 1616, in connection with the Galileo affair, the Roman Catholic Church's Congregation of the Index issued a decree suspending De revolutionibus until it could be "corrected," on the grounds of ensuring that Copernicanism, which it described as a "false Pythagorean doctrine, altogether contrary to the Holy Scripture," would not "creep any further to the prejudice of Catholic truth."
with a note that this prohibition was finally removed in 1835.

yossarian22c

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #102 on: July 26, 2022, 09:29:09 AM »
...
I'm sure some people still get confused about the Church's denial of Heliocentrism and a flat Earth. But I don't know of any professional historians who would confuse the two.

Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.

I'm saying what the person who quit learning history in elementary school might confuse in their memories of Columbus, flat earth, and the church's stance on Heliocentrism. No one educated in history, particularly scientific history, confuses any of those concepts. So I was trying to understand/explain how you thought people were ascribing a flat earth attitude to the church at the time of Columbus. And there probably are a few people who believe something like that, but they are people who quit learning in the 5th grade.

The church almost executed Galileo for advocating for the Heliocentric model of the solar system. Hard to give them credit for that advance in science.

Galileo and Descartes are the originators of the modern scientific method. Both came from a Christian society. Descartes claimed to be divinely inspired. But neither was an agent of the church.

Fenring

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #103 on: July 26, 2022, 12:44:47 PM »
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.

I believe he was saying that most laymen are ignorant enough about the history of science that they would confuse the Church's slow move away from heliocentrism with it advocating for a flat Earth. As you may know, many people in the last 50 years have been taught in school that in Columbus' time everyone thought the Earth was flat (which is flatly incorrect).

Fenring

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #104 on: July 26, 2022, 01:05:57 PM »
The church almost executed Galileo for advocating for the Heliocentric model of the solar system. Hard to give them credit for that advance in science.

This isn't really an accurate way of describing it. The Galileo situation is typically misunderstood when people trot it out. There are two things he was in trouble for, one of which (arguably the main thing) was insulting the Pope in his book on two new sciences. He asked for permission to write it, they gave him constraints, and he twisted their constraints on purpose in a way that was basically giving them the finger. I can give you more detail if you like, but the long and short of it was they said it was ok for him to present his new theory so long as he didn't present it as uncontested fact, and showed the current theory alongside it. Instead of doing that he presented the 'alternate viewpoint' as an idiot named Simplicio, who was a stand-in for the Pope, and only said ridiculous things. That's kind of funny, but you have to keep in mind what kind of 'publisher' the Church was at the time (a very cautious one). The other problem was he wanted to trumpet his theory too quickly as fact rather than waiting for others to eventually vet his conclusions. This bears some similarity to the situation for Giordano Bruno, and in terms of the reasons they were in trouble largely having to do with things other than their science (e.g. their behavior, their disobedience, etc).

The main thing to keep in mind is there's a difference between resistance to change and refusal to change. The Church's tendency is and was to be very slow to accept modifications to its received worldview, and did not want any old crackpot teaching people all kinds of stuff as fact which hadn't yet had a chance to (slowly) make its rounds about the community in a satisfactory manner. This process could potentially take decades or centuries, and this slow-moving change is a bug and a feature depending on how you look at it, but overall is probably more of a feature. It becomes more of a bug when it's slow to change terrible, destructive goings-on in the present tense. It's a very modern conceit to think that a guy has a new scientific model, and they're oppressing him when they don't immediately allow him to begin teaching it as fact. But think of a comparison to, say, a medical guild or association, which doesn't allow new medications or techniques being used until they've gone through testing and been vetted. This is done to protect people, and to protect the reputation of all doctors in the association. Contrast with the proliferation of 'quack doctors' in the early 20th century, where you could not innately trust a doctor to use accredited techniques. So on its face this is reasonable, but what a contemporary person isn't primed to understand is that in the past this vetting process was much slower than such processes are today. But they did have half-way houses for such theory, and it was typically not banned outright. For instance, the Copernican theory was not exactly banned as such, but it was required that it be portrayed as a mathematical model rather than as a physical reality. And good thing too, since it was an inaccurate representation of the solar system.

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Galileo and Descartes are the originators of the modern scientific method.

This is the first time I've heard this claim, actually. I've heard it ascribed to Francis Bacon, to various enlightenment people. What did Galileo do that was so revolutionary? I mean, he did invent a tool enabling telescope-based astronomy, improving the field of naked eye astronomy greatly, but there was already astronomy as such. I'm more versed in Descartes' philosophical work than any field work he may have done in science, so I can't be as sure with him, but I don't have any recollection in reading history and philosophy of science books that he's given some special status.

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Both came from a Christian society. Descartes claimed to be divinely inspired. But neither was an agent of the church.

I think you're correct in disputing a blithe that anything any scientist said in the past was "the Church" saying it. However it's a complex subject, since you'd have to understand how the vetting process worked for not only doctrine but also issues related to doctrine but subject to potential changes. It's not really accurate either, though, to say that people who lived under the Church weren't agents of it; that would be to incorrectly separate out their faith life from their work life, which is a fairly recent concept. This is especially so since "the Church" can mean the administrative and ecclesiastical authority in the Church, but also just refers to all the people in it. It's not a monolithic voice, even though the authorities did reserve the right to limit what could be taught as facts.

yossarian22c

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #105 on: July 26, 2022, 01:36:16 PM »

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Galileo and Descartes are the originators of the modern scientific method.

This is the first time I've heard this claim, actually. I've heard it ascribed to Francis Bacon, to various enlightenment people. What did Galileo do that was so revolutionary? I mean, he did invent a tool enabling telescope-based astronomy, improving the field of naked eye astronomy greatly, but there was already astronomy as such. I'm more versed in Descartes' philosophical work than any field work he may have done in science, so I can't be as sure with him, but I don't have any recollection in reading history and philosophy of science books that he's given some special status.

Galileo studied pendulum's leading to the development of the pendulum clock and did research with inclined planes that showed that the distance an object fell was proportional to time squared and didn't depend on the mass of the object. These are some of the first important experiments of the scientific revolution. He did other interesting things too in engineering and pre-Newtonian physics that weren't just Astronomy.

Apparently we've read different sources about the origin of the scientific method. But someone has read both. A brief description and comparison of the ideas around science of Descartes and Bacon.

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The differences between the methods of Descartes and Bacon are many and deep, but there are also many things they have in common. Each of these pioneers advocated the complete overthrow of all the methods and most of the results of the authorities that came before them. Both of these men demanded a new standard of precision, since there were so many examples of sloppy reasoning and observation that littered the path of the science of the past. There was also a common commitment to doubt in general and a concern about the "deceptions of the senses" (3, p. 474). In addition, they believed in the reduction of problems to their smallest constituent parts as a general principle. Descartes and Bacon each saw himself primarily in the role of an advocate for science and therefore they contributed very little to any particular field of empirical science (5). Finally, both of these men were uniquely gifted to promote the particular aspects of science that were eventually crucial to its advance.

http://www.thingsrevealed.net/dscrtbacn.htm

So it would seem they both contributed to the movement. Descartes did little practical work in Science but his work in mathematics combining Algebra and Geometry probably led to the creation of Calculus. I see Newton as an heir to both Galileo's experiments and Descartes reasoning. But with most things in human history too strongly crediting any one person will miss the society and others who were advocating along similar lines. I'll remember to include Bacon in the future when thinking of the origins of the scientific method.

Fenring

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #106 on: July 26, 2022, 01:41:06 PM »
Galileo studied pendulum's leading to the development of the pendulum clock and did research with inclined planes that showed that the distance an object fell was proportional to time squared and didn't depend on the mass of the object. These are some of the first important experiments of the scientific revolution. He did other interesting things too in engineering and pre-Newtonian physics that weren't just Astronomy.

I know Galileo did other stuff, but he wasn't the only one doing mechanics and astronomy. I guess my point was that he uniquely invented the technology to revolutionize astronomy, so I count that as a big win in practical science. But I never saw him particularly as an originator of experimental methods. I'll keep in mind to check up on this next time I'm spelunking through the history.

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #107 on: July 26, 2022, 04:32:50 PM »
[quote author=yossarian22c link=topic=1143.msg62791#msg62791 date=1658856...I know Galileo did other stuff, but he wasn't the only one doing mechanics and astronomy. I guess my point was that he uniquely invented the technology to revolutionize astronomy, so I count that as a big win in practical science. But I never saw him particularly as an originator of experimental methods. I'll keep in mind to check up on this next time I'm spelunking through the history.

Getting back to the thread about the many Trump successes compared to the Biden failures - This week we can focus on the many actions against Huawei Technologies under Trump, and how the Biden decisions to earn his graft from China to allow their espionage is another on-going Biden in-your-face failure. Since Biden was paid for his China actions, this may well be treason:

https://republicbrief.com/shocking-fbi-probe-finds-us-nukes-compromised-by-china-trump-warned-about-this/

Mike Pompeo said: "FBI investigations confirm what we knew in Trump Admin: the CCP uses Huawei equipment to conduct espionage, even disrupt essential national security operations."

Let's all go look at the MSM's revelation of all the national securit threats created from this. It should be everywhere, neh?

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #108 on: July 26, 2022, 05:01:27 PM »
...The main thing to keep in mind is there's a difference between resistance to change and refusal to change. The Church's tendency is and was to be very slow to accept modifications to its received worldview, and did not want any old crackpot teaching people all kinds of stuff as fact which hadn't yet had a chance to (slowly) make its rounds about the community in a satisfactory manner.

That is directly contrary to fact. It was the Church with a Capital "C" which sponsored science, and ushered new thinking and technology to come into being. Christianity actually inspired science. It was only at the birth of Christianity, that a wise God appeared who fostered the idea that science could be done and should be done. The Church understood there was a duty to understand God's handiwork, the better to marvel at it.

Any slowness of acceptance to new science was bureaucratic and political inertia. And what disinformation against the Church we read about today usually stems from the Atheist efforts in the  early 1800's. As a real world example, look at the Crusades. Think about "The Hammer", Charles Martel. At the time of the Umayyad invasion of Aquitaine at the Battle of Tours, he was outnumbered and facing what was considered the greatest army of horse soldiers in the world. However; Martel had the scientific inventions of the Church behind him, and the new innovations of stirrups and reins allowed his forces to demolish the Umayyad Caliphate.

Acceptance of change is immediate. There are many who try to push the idea that new thinking takes forever and a day to sink in. Actually, we learn and use what we learn at once.

When Trump regains the Presidency - anticipate the corrections after Biden's failure to be far quicker than the media allows will happen. Just think about what Biden's firing of the Immigration Judges that Trump appointed means to the Never-Trumpers who do not deserve their platforms to delimit Trump for a second time. Biden and his handlers have unwisely given any future regimes plenty of precedents to unpoliticize bureaucracy.

Wayward Son

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #109 on: July 26, 2022, 05:57:27 PM »
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This week we can focus on the many actions against Huawei Technologies under Trump, and how the Biden decisions to earn his graft from China to allow their espionage is another on-going Biden in-your-face failure. Since Biden was paid for his China actions, this may well be treason:

https://republicbrief.com/shocking-fbi-probe-finds-us-nukes-compromised-by-china-trump-warned-about-this/

Mike Pompeo said: "FBI investigations confirm what we knew in Trump Admin: the CCP uses Huawei equipment to conduct espionage, even disrupt essential national security operations."

Let's all go look at the MSM's revelation of all the national security threats created from this. It should be everywhere, neh?

Blah, blah, blah.  You do realize that Pompeo was quoting a CNN report on Huawei equipment, right?  If it weren't for CNN, you wouldn't even know about this! :D

Which also means that the security threat is mainly Pompeo's opinion, at this time.

Which doesn't mean it may not be a concern, but you're expecting responsible news sources to jump to conclusions like you're fly-by-night sources (such as the opinion article you linked to).

And so far I haven't found any direct link between Biden and Huawei, except for a Chinese investment firm that has some stock in Huawei that Hunter Biden has some money in.  So where is the "graft" coming from?

You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.  Find more dirt first. :D

Wayward Son

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #110 on: July 26, 2022, 06:34:58 PM »
And speaking of opinion pieces, the editors of The New York Post, one of the most conservative papers in the U.S. today, had this to say in an editorial last week:

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There has been much debate over whether Trump’s rally speech on Jan. 6, 2021, constituted “incitement.” That’s somewhat of a red herring. What matters more — and has become crystal clear in recent days — is that Trump didn’t lift a finger to stop the violence that followed.

And he was the only person who could stop what was happening. He was the only one the crowd was listening to. It was incitement by silence.

Trump only wanted one thing during that infamous afternoon: to pressure Vice President Mike Pence to decertify the election of Joe Biden.

He thought the violence of his loyal followers would make Pence crack, or delay the vote altogether.

To his eternal shame, as appalled aides implored him to publicly call on his followers to go home, he instead further fanned the flames by tweeting: “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution.”

His only focus was to find any means — damn the consequences — to block the peaceful transfer of power.

There is no other explanation, just as there is no defense, for his refusal to stop the violence.

It’s up to the Justice Department to decide if this is a crime. But as a matter of principle, as a matter of character, Trump has proven himself unworthy to be this country’s chief executive again.

This is the editorial board of The New York Post.

This week it was the Wall Street Journal's turn.

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No matter your views of the Jan. 6 special committee, the facts it is laying out in hearings are sobering. The most horrifying to date came Thursday in a hearing on President Trump's conduct as the riot raged and he sat watching TV, posting inflammatory tweets and refusing to send help... Mr. Trump took an oath to defend the Constitution, and he had a duty as Commander in Chief to protect the Capitol from a mob attacking it in his name. He refused. He didn't call the military to send help. He didn't call [Mike] ]Pence to check on the safety of his loyal VP. Instead he fed the mob's anger and let the riot play out.
(Per Electoral-Vote.com, since I don't have a subscription, either. :) )

When two of the most influential conservative newspapers in the country--both of whom endorsed Trump in the last election, IIRC--now say (or imply) he is unfit for office, that definitely counts as a loss.

I guess the Jan. 6 Commission has had some effect.

msquared

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #111 on: July 26, 2022, 06:42:41 PM »
It is those deep state Murdoch's who are out to get Trump.  They are not real newspapers. Trump hardly knows them.  All part of the Gates/Soros deep state plot.

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #112 on: July 26, 2022, 07:21:03 PM »
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This week we can focus on the many actions against Huawei Technologies under Trump, and how the Biden decisions to earn his graft from China to allow their espionage is another on-going Biden in-your-face failure. Since Biden was paid for his China actions, this may well be treason:

https://republicbrief.com/shocking-fbi-probe-finds-us-nukes-compromised-by-china-trump-warned-about-this/...You do realize that Pompeo was quoting a CNN report on Huawei equipment, right?  If it weren't for CNN, you wouldn't even know about this!

What have you been looking at? According to Peter Schweitzer at the NY Post: "The Bidens received some $31 million from Chinese Businessmen linked to the highest level of Chinese intelligence."

$20 million from Che Feng. $5 million from Ye Jianming, $188,617 from Li Ming. $5 million from Henry Zhao., $1 million from Patrick Ho.

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #113 on: July 26, 2022, 07:26:45 PM »
BTW, do YOU realize the link you poste exxonerates Trump and calls the FBI dirty? Here's a pullquote:
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...As the FBI concluded its Russia investigation, specifically into former president Donald Trump, you can find an electronic document that spells out just how wide a net it gave its agents to find evidence relevant to a crime committed by a president.

As a result, this leeway was largely attributed to Igor Danchenko, the Russian-born US resident, who played a key role in the development of Christopher Steele’s dossier in the 2016 election season. Steele’s London-based research project, now widely viewed as a hoax, was funded by Democrats. It was used for months by the anti-Trump forces under the direction of Rep. Adam Schiff of California, in order to sabotage, harass, and disorient the presidential administration.

Wayward Son

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #114 on: July 26, 2022, 07:42:45 PM »
BTW, do YOU realize the link you poste exxonerates Trump and calls the FBI dirty? Here's a pullquote:
Quote
...As the FBI concluded its Russia investigation, specifically into former president Donald Trump, you can find an electronic document that spells out just how wide a net it gave its agents to find evidence relevant to a crime committed by a president.

As a result, this leeway was largely attributed to Igor Danchenko, the Russian-born US resident, who played a key role in the development of Christopher Steele’s dossier in the 2016 election season. Steele’s London-based research project, now widely viewed as a hoax, was funded by Democrats. It was used for months by the anti-Trump forces under the direction of Rep. Adam Schiff of California, in order to sabotage, harass, and disorient the presidential administration.

Uh, who's post?  ???

TheDrake

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #115 on: July 27, 2022, 01:54:48 PM »
BTW, do YOU realize the link you poste exxonerates Trump and calls the FBI dirty? Here's a pullquote:
Quote
...As the FBI concluded its Russia investigation, specifically into former president Donald Trump, you can find an electronic document that spells out just how wide a net it gave its agents to find evidence relevant to a crime committed by a president.

As a result, this leeway was largely attributed to Igor Danchenko, the Russian-born US resident, who played a key role in the development of Christopher Steele’s dossier in the 2016 election season. Steele’s London-based research project, now widely viewed as a hoax, was funded by Democrats. It was used for months by the anti-Trump forces under the direction of Rep. Adam Schiff of California, in order to sabotage, harass, and disorient the presidential administration.

Nobody but you quotes republic brief, and the article that you're quoting from is a different one than the one you referenced about Huawei.

Btw, Pelosi also urged us allies to avoid Huawei. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/14/pelosi-warns-us-allies-dont-go-near-huawei.html

Chuck Schumer criticised Trump not for cutting them off, but for backing down. https://twitter.com/senschumer/status/1144941425047592960

On March 3, 2020: these were the bipartisan authors of a letter asking the UK to reconsider Huawei.

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Senators Schumer and Sasse were joined by Senators Richard Burr (R-NC), John Thune (R-SD), Mark Warner (D-VA), Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY), Chris Coons (D-DE), Jerry Moran (R-KS), Marco Rubio (R-FL), Richard Blumenthal (D-CT), Ted Cruz (R-TX),  Ed Markey (D-MA), Thom Tillis (R-NC), Chris Van Hollen (D-MD), Todd Young (R-IN), Marsha Blackburn (R-TN), Mitt Romney (R-UT), Josh Hawley (R-MO), Tom Cotton (R-AR), and Rick Scott (R-FL).

The problem, if there was one, was Trump threatening security alliances over it when this would massively have inflated the cost of 5G rollout in Europe.

I doubt you can find a single politician during Trump's four years that said Huawei was NOT a national security problem. Fabricating a partisan issue out of this when it is so easy to disprove makes it pretty clear that your much touted "research" consists of blindly regurgitating questionable sources.

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #116 on: July 27, 2022, 03:11:20 PM »
The FBI’s reported conclusion was that Chinese telecommunications company Huawei placed equipment on American soil capable of disrupting military communications overseeing U.S. nuclear weapons. Biden is into China for over $31 million in graft.

Stop rationalizing for him and play it straight.

yossarian22c

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #117 on: July 27, 2022, 03:54:08 PM »
The FBI’s reported conclusion was that Chinese telecommunications company Huawei placed equipment on American soil capable of disrupting military communications overseeing U.S. nuclear weapons. Biden is into China for over $31 million in graft.

Stop rationalizing for him and play it straight.

No one is defending Huawei. We just don't see anything Biden did to help them.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59262329

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US President Joe Biden has signed legislation that stops companies judged to be a security threat from receiving new telecoms equipment licences.

The Secure Equipment Act says the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) should no longer review applications from companies ruled a threat.

It means equipment from Huawei, ZTE and three other Chinese companies cannot be used in US telecoms networks.

Democrat and Republican senators all approved the bill.

Tom

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #118 on: July 27, 2022, 04:15:20 PM »
One should also view that $31 million claim with a reasonably sizable grain of salt. :)

msquared

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #119 on: July 28, 2022, 12:27:57 PM »

TheDrake

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #120 on: July 28, 2022, 03:55:25 PM »
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“This whole case has been about trying to shine a light on government," Bailey-Rihn said. What it revealed, she said, was that in the early days of Gableman's probe, he was being paid $11,000 a month by taxpayers "to sit in the New Berlin library to learn about election law because he knows nothing about election law.”

I thought the Republicans like to say they're the fiscally responsible party.

yossarian22c

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #121 on: August 01, 2022, 03:40:03 PM »
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But there are signs that Trump's once-ironclad grip is beginning to loosen. Having lost reelection by millions of votes, and under pressure from multiple investigations, including the Justice Department's probe of his role in the Jan. 6 insurrection, focus groups and surveys (more on the data below) are starting to show that rank-and-file Republican voters are starting to see Trump as a liability.

Even editorial boards once friendly to Trump, like the Rupert Murdoch-owned New York Post and Wall Street Journal have in the last week called him "unworthy" to be president again, citing his "character" and conduct on Jan. 6.

Trump is losing his appeal to some Republicans. About time.

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More Republicans saying they don't want Trump to be the nominee: 55% of Republicans in a recent CNN poll said they don't want Trump to be their standard-bearer in 2024, up from 49% in February. Similarly, Reuters/Ipsos found a third of Republicans said Trump should not run again, up from a quarter before the Jan. 6 hearings.

Only question is if that 55% can agree on someone to beat him in the primary.

msquared

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #122 on: August 01, 2022, 08:34:39 PM »
In MO Trump has endorsed Eric for Senator.  He did not say which Eric since both Republicans in the primary are named Eric. What  a way to endorse everyone so that when one wins he can claim it was his endorsement that put them over the top.

When it comes to the hard choices, Trump does not make a decision.   He waffles.  Must be tired of backing losers, since the winner of this primary is likely to be elected in the general. At least Trump can point to one Senate race where he backed a winner. Of course it was a foregone conclusion which Party would win.  Unlike Walker in GA and Oz in PA.

msquared

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #123 on: August 02, 2022, 07:41:41 PM »
Who knew that trying to have your followers overthrow the Government is not with in the bounds of Presidential Duty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-dismisses-trumps-immunity-claim-181511430.html

He keeps trotting out the same defenses and he keeps losing.  He has the be the losingest President of all time.

TheDrake

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #124 on: August 02, 2022, 10:22:16 PM »
Who knew that trying to have your followers overthrow the Government is not with in the bounds of Presidential Duty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-dismisses-trumps-immunity-claim-181511430.html

He keeps trotting out the same defenses and he keeps losing.  He has the be the losingest President of all time.

Well, Jefferson Davis who tried the same thing?

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #125 on: August 03, 2022, 09:22:01 PM »
Who knew that trying to have your followers overthrow the Government is not with in the bounds of Presidential Duty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-dismisses-trumps-immunity-claim-181511430.html

He keeps trotting out the same defenses and he keeps losing.  He has the be the losingest President of all time.

Exactly the opposite. The news reports from the States running Primaries all proclaimed Trump support as winning the day for his choices. Here in Michigan, you should have seen all the Democrat sponsored hit-pieces aimed at Tudor Dixon after Trump endorsed her. They were completely unhinged in their attacks. But she won in a landslide. It seems no one believed any of the attack ads - which portends for the future. The Never-Trumpers are reeling - as well as the Dems

In a news story today, the Dems were trying to perfect new vote-scamming procedures in Michigan. They tried, but the Trump-endorsed candidates won in landslides. People's eyes are open. I doubt the Dems can cheat as well as they did in 2020.  The slanted news reports that say GOP are rallying against him are bogus.

msquared

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #126 on: August 04, 2022, 07:36:49 AM »
So which Eric did he endorse in MO? The one that won or the one that lost?  Let's see how the real elections turn out, not just the primaries.

msquared

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #127 on: August 05, 2022, 08:43:03 AM »
Dick Cheney says Trump is a threat to Democracy.  Waiting to hear the Trumpist call him a RINO.

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #128 on: August 05, 2022, 12:25:11 PM »
Dick Cheney says Trump is a threat to Democracy.  Waiting to hear the Trumpist call him a RINO.

He was shown on Fox News and Newsmax, in full. No edits or paraphrasing, and he said a whole lot of nothing. He and his daughter are Never-Trumpers. Both are tainted by personal ingratitude. Cheney is a Republican Neo-con. That is not in dispute. He and she made the decision to visibly denigrate Trump at every opportunity. More and more, they have been on the wrong side of issues. Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

Dick Cheney is often castigated for proclaiming WMD in Iraq, Yes, there were WMDs which were documented there, and a massive Russian operation to hide them before the US buildup. He should have stated the case clearly, but instead, bent the knee to the WMD deniers to try to keep on the good side of a Leftists media that wanted to smear Bush 43. His legacy was shaken and calling attention to it made him a leper. Liz was good on most issues until she got the anti-Trump religion.

Wayward Son

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #129 on: August 05, 2022, 01:07:20 PM »
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Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

I don't know how you can say that the impeachments have be "proved to be in error."

There is sworn testimony that the Ukrainian officials were told that they had to start an investigation on Biden to get a White House visit and their much-needed weapons.

And after all the Republican testimony to the Jan. 6th Commission, how can anyone state at this time that he absolutely did not try to incite an insurrection?  A march he planned and wanted to attend; that he knew had armed individuals; and did nothing to stop it once it turned into a riot that threatened the life of his own Vice-President?  This is what you consider to be proven to be in error??  ???

You live in your own little world, William.

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #130 on: August 05, 2022, 07:17:58 PM »
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Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

I don't know how you can say that the impeachments have be "proved to be in error."

There is sworn testimony that the Ukrainian officials were told that they had to start an investigation on Biden to get a White House visit and their much-needed weapons.

And after all the Republican testimony to the Jan. 6th Commission, how can anyone state at this time that he absolutely did not try to incite an insurrection?  A march he planned and wanted to attend; that he knew had armed individuals; and did nothing to stop it once it turned into a riot that threatened the life of his own Vice-President?  This is what you consider to be proven to be in error??  ???

You live in your own little world, William.

You really should watch other networks than CNN or MSNBC. Those testimonies were shown to be wrong. Trump talked about Hunter and Joe blackmailing the Ukraine, which was proved to be accurate. We all saw Joe bragging about doing it. We recently saw Joe bend over backwards to avoid offending those that gave his crime family so much illegal graft.

Everything you just quoted about what Trump knew and did alá J6 is moot. The J6 commission put on an embedded agent in the Proud Boys who said nobody was armed. It is Pelosi who is avoiding being investigated. She is responsible for her people murdering an unarmed woman, and for denying the offered military to support the half-strength Capital security. Trump was home watching the protest on a station that did not show the supposed break-ins nor any violence. That was confirmed - but the J6 presentation missed it.

Tom

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #131 on: August 05, 2022, 10:06:24 PM »
It is honestly sad to see what right-wing propaganda has done to you.

Wayward Son

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #132 on: August 06, 2022, 12:18:41 PM »
Quote
Monumentally, Liz sided with Dems and other Never-Trumpers to impeach him for issues that have since been proved to be in error. Downright lies, when what Trump had said was proved correct.

I don't know how you can say that the impeachments have be "proved to be in error."

There is sworn testimony that the Ukrainian officials were told that they had to start an investigation on Biden to get a White House visit and their much-needed weapons.

And after all the Republican testimony to the Jan. 6th Commission, how can anyone state at this time that he absolutely did not try to incite an insurrection?  A march he planned and wanted to attend; that he knew had armed individuals; and did nothing to stop it once it turned into a riot that threatened the life of his own Vice-President?  This is what you consider to be proven to be in error??  ???

You live in your own little world, William.

You really should watch other networks than CNN or MSNBC. Those testimonies were shown to be wrong.

Excuse me?  How can a testimony that said, "I told them this," can be shown to be wrong?  ???  How can you say the special ambassador appointed by Trump to represent him in Ukraine was lying?  Do you even know what you're talking about?

Quote
Trump talked about Hunter and Joe blackmailing the Ukraine, which was proved to be accurate. We all saw Joe bragging about doing it. We recently saw Joe bend over backwards to avoid offending those that gave his crime family so much illegal graft.[/quote[

So this justifies him withholding weapons needed to prevent Russia from invading?   ???

[quote[Everything you just quoted about what Trump knew and did alá J6 is moot. The J6 commission put on an embedded agent in the Proud Boys who said nobody was armed. It is Pelosi who is avoiding being investigated. She is responsible for her people murdering an unarmed woman, and for denying the offered military to support the half-strength Capital security. Trump was home watching the protest on a station that did not show the supposed break-ins nor any violence. That was confirmed - but the J6 presentation missed it.

Confirmed by whom?  When?  What about the testimony of those Republicans who were in the White House with him begging him to take action?  Was Trump also deaf at the time?  Or couldn't he even hear the Senators and Representatives he called during that time who might have mentioned they were evacuating?  Or Hannity telling him to call the mob off?

How much of the actual testimony have you heard yourself?  Or are you getting it filtered by others? ;)

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #133 on: August 06, 2022, 02:31:11 PM »
...Confirmed by whom?  When?  What about the testimony of those Republicans who were in the White House with him begging him to take action?  Was Trump also deaf at the time?  Or couldn't he even hear the Senators and Representatives he called during that time who might have mentioned they were evacuating?  Or Hannity telling him to call the mob off?

How much of the actual testimony have you heard yourself?  Or are you getting it filtered by others? ;)

You miss much by only viewing the complicit media. I've seen the complicit media as well as legitimate news sources. What testimony which contradicts the Constitutional requirements embedded in the body of it, not just in the Amendments, do you think is worthy to believe? The J6 UnSelect Committee is a travesty and is embarrassing. Not for Trump - but for the people hanging on every inconsistency and lie put forward. Deflection is the name of the game. The vote-scamming is still what was important - not the scammers trying to deflect their scamming by calling everyone who sees through them deniers.

BYW, the time period where the J6 Committee stresses over is when Trump was in his room watching the protest as I noted. The other stuff came later - after he was apprised of possible violations (remember security did wave protesters into the Capital.) He told them to be legal and peaceful from the beginning. Did Pelosi tell her minions not to shoot unarmed women? The contrast is stark.

Tom

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #134 on: August 06, 2022, 09:57:56 PM »
Just to be clear, here: you're saying that the Capitol Police are "Pelosi's minions?"

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #135 on: August 07, 2022, 11:23:52 PM »
Just to be clear, here: you're saying that the Capitol Police are "Pelosi's minions?"

You are kidding, aren't you? You do know the chain of command at the Capital Building, don't you? You do know the Sargeant of Arms wanted to accept the offer of Trump to provide National Guard support, but Pelosi nixed it, even though the building security forces were at half-strength? Pelosi is the number one suspect for the incursion on Jan 6, but she rigged the J6 Committee so she will never need to testify and explain her decisions.

Tom

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #136 on: August 07, 2022, 11:46:15 PM »
Do you think the Capitol Police would agree that they are in fact Pelosi's minions?

And I know I said that fact-checking you is exhausting, but I need to point out: 1) Pelosi is not in charge of Capitol security in any sense, or even anywhere in that particular chain of command, as the Speaker of the House hasn't served in that capacity for longer than we've been alive; 2)  there is no evidence that Trump ever made an offer of National Guard support, and the House Sergeant-at-Arms has specifically rebutted his claim to have done so; 3) the committee was "rigged" only in the sense that two specific individuals of interest in the investigation were not permitted to be on it.

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #137 on: August 08, 2022, 04:01:02 PM »
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.
Could you give me sources and dates on that?

Rodney Stark wrote:
Quote
Every educated person of Columbus's time knew the earth was round. This includes Roman Catholic theologians. The Venerable Bede (ca. 673-735) taught that the Earth was round, as did Bishop Virgilius of Salzburg (ca. 720-784). Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), and Thomas Aquinas (1224-1274), and all four became Saints. It was part of an ages-old conspiracy of atheists to portray Religion as being anti-Science. Columbus was not argued out of sailing off the edge of the world. The scientist of his day knew the world was round - but much larger than Columbus estimated. He put Japan at being only 2,080 miles from the Canary Islands, but the "sundry wise men of Spain" knew it was over 14,000 miles. Had Columbus not run across an unsuspected continent - his crew would have all died at Sea.

yossarian22c

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #138 on: August 08, 2022, 04:45:16 PM »
Actually you confuse me, too. Heliocentrism is usually compared against geocentrism - not a flat earth. All in all, it was the Church that sought out the science. It was the church that decreed the earth revolves around the sun, not placing the Earth at the center.
Could you give me sources and dates on that?

The sources and dates request was about your claim of the church decreeing the Earth revolves around the sun. They were a couple hundred years at behind the scientific community on that one.

wmLambert

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #139 on: August 08, 2022, 04:52:24 PM »
As for Heliocentrism vs. Geocentrism, the Church erred trying to marry tested science with once-believed Biblical interpretations, which were later proved to be different. The whole issue meant well, to support science vs. non-science.

Guesswork without empiricism is not science. It was only at the birth of Christianity, that a wise God appeared who fostered the idea that science could be done and should be done. The Church understood there was a duty to understand God's handiwork, the better to marvel at it.

It was the Church that fostered science. Quintus Tertullian instructed in the second century, "Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason — nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason." The success of the West, including the rise of science, rested entirely on religious foundations, and the people who brought it about were devout Christians.

In the early seventeenth century, Heliocentrism and geocentrism were open-ended untested science which confused some people who should have known better - to flex their bureaucratic muscles to proclaim what science was and was not. It wasn't until 1916 that Pope Pius V said geocentrism was not De Fide. Non-scientists had held opinions that were wrong and tried to win their arguments by what I have stated as "Laughter by Intimidation", just like some do in this forum. They said the church proclaims it so it must be so. Science continued to accelerate, and truth and reason won out, as it always should. I am not all that religious, myself, except to understand the role the Church had to nurture science. When things fell between the cracks, they festered for a while, but were corrected. Those who poke at the church or religion as holding back science are just mirroring the Andrew Dickson White's of the world.

Tom

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #140 on: August 08, 2022, 04:58:33 PM »
For my part, I like to draw a distinction -- thar I find useful -- between religions as institutions and religious epistemologies. Many religions have historically encouraged some degree of scholarly epistemology alongside religious ones, and the two only occasionally come into conflict. When they do, it is not uncommon to see, as we saw the Mormons do in the '80s, the release of statements clarifying that the purpose of scholarship is to know and glorify God, and thus any scholarship which would repudiate dogma is invalid. This sort of reactionary tendency usually only lasts a generation until the new truths are incorporated (or at the very least retroactively justified.)

Tom

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #141 on: August 08, 2022, 05:00:32 PM »
Note, by the way, that I called out your errors above, and you summarily ignored them. This is SOP, and I expect you to again claim that Pelosi was in charge of the Capitol Police within three weeks.

TheDrake

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #142 on: August 08, 2022, 07:03:15 PM »
More on the Pelosi thing. Note that it was the GOP leadership that tried to paint Pelosi with this brush, and their sycophants lap it up.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-235651652542

Meanwhile, did Mitch also refuse the National Guard, because he has Senate oversight of security. Neither of the two politicians has been involved in operational security decisions.

msquared

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #143 on: August 08, 2022, 07:49:42 PM »
Well Toddler Trump says the FBI has raided Mar-a-Lago.  I guess if Trump does not want his home searched maybe he should not keep secret records there.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-fbi-raid-mar-a-lago-investigation-232732108.html
« Last Edit: August 08, 2022, 07:52:36 PM by msquared »

Crunch

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #144 on: August 09, 2022, 08:20:54 AM »
The Biden FBI raiding the homes of political opponents that he may run against is not the win you think it is. Well, except in third world countries. 

This better be rock solid or you just turned Trump into a martyr with the perfect rallying cry.

msquared

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #145 on: August 09, 2022, 08:22:50 AM »
Trump will do that no matter what.  Are ex Presidents allowed to do anything they want since any investigation into any of their activities will be called political persecution? 

Crunch

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #146 on: August 09, 2022, 08:26:01 AM »
Trump will do that no matter what.  Are ex Presidents allowed to do anything they want since any investigation into any of their activities will be called political persecution?

Remember this when Trump or DeSantis take control and they use the fbi and irs in a similar manner. I mean, you’re really cool with that, right? I know I am. 

msquared

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #147 on: August 09, 2022, 08:28:58 AM »
I mean the FBI Director was appointed by Trump, right? And there have been many findings that Trump might have committed a crime (like taking Gov documents that he is not allowed to have with him to Mar-a-Largo, right?  And Trump never had anyone investigate any family member of Biden's, like Hunter.

Trump loves to play the victim.

Tom

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #148 on: August 09, 2022, 08:29:22 AM »
Crunch, would it still be improper to investigate a former president if he had no intention to run again, or had already served the maximum number of terms?

msquared

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Re: Trump looses again
« Reply #149 on: August 09, 2022, 09:06:45 AM »
This could be like getting Al Capone on tax fraud instead of murder.