Author Topic: The Great Replacement?  (Read 1791 times)

msquared

  • Members
    • View Profile
The Great Replacement?
« on: May 16, 2022, 09:11:43 AM »
Well  I bet Tucker Carlson is pleased.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/great-replacement-theory-try-language-090107600.html

Almost nothing from Fox News on this tragedy. Maybe because it was just 10+ black people gunned down by a young white Christian male.  Or maybe their employees support of the Great Replacement theory is coming back to haunt them.

Lets listen for the usual suspects skittering around trying to say why this was not all that bad and it was just a single deranged person and not a larger movement that the Right has been pushing for a few years now.  Or how this guy is actually a deep plant left wing false flag operative funded by Bill Gates and George Soros.

NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2022, 09:45:10 AM »
The Great Replacement also seems to be one of the "conservative" ideas that people want to be able to promulgate on social media without censure.

msquared

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2022, 09:53:03 AM »
I mean white people are not being replaced.  No one has replaced me any more than my forefathers from Ireland replaced any one. One complaint is that their vote is getting diluted. Well, sure. If the population goes up your vote gets "diluted".

This is the one thing I do not understand about the Republican Party and their weird stand on immigration from the south.  Many polls and studies have shown that migrants from Mexico and Central and South America would easily go Republican. Many of the immigrants are Catholic and support much of the right side agenda. They are hard workers and do the jobs many, if not most, white Americans do not want to do, at any price.  If they legalized those immigrants my guess is more of them would vote Republican than Democrat. But the Republicans would rather play the invader card than welcome a demographic that would normally support them.

NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2022, 10:01:25 AM »
I think the problem is partially the Republican's donor base, which has a large proportion of committed racists and business interests who like being able to exploit illegal immigrants. Their other difficulty would be managing the transition away from overt and covert racism to something more Hispanic people would be comfortable voting for. There would be a period when their current coalition would see outreach to Hispanic voters as abandonment and Hispanic voters still wouldn't trust them. That means handing one or two complete electoral cycles to the Democrats, which would be very bad for the Republican leadership.

Ouija Nightmare

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2022, 12:26:06 PM »
Well  I bet Tucker Carlson is pleased.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/great-replacement-theory-try-language-090107600.html

Almost nothing from Fox News on this tragedy. Maybe because it was just 10+ black people gunned down by a young white Christian male.  Or maybe their employees support of the Great Replacement theory is coming back to haunt them.

Lets listen for the usual suspects skittering around trying to say why this was not all that bad and it was just a single deranged person and not a larger movement that the Right has been pushing for a few years now.  Or how this guy is actually a deep plant left wing false flag operative funded by Bill Gates and George Soros.


Or that he drove over there to defend law and order and he clearly shoot them all in self defense.

Lloyd Perna

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2022, 12:31:17 PM »
Well  I bet Tucker Carlson is pleased.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/great-replacement-theory-try-language-090107600.html

Almost nothing from Fox News on this tragedy. Maybe because it was just 10+ black people gunned down by a young white Christian male.  Or maybe their employees support of the Great Replacement theory is coming back to haunt them.

Lets listen for the usual suspects skittering around trying to say why this was not all that bad and it was just a single deranged person and not a larger movement that the Right has been pushing for a few years now.  Or how this guy is actually a deep plant left wing false flag operative funded by Bill Gates and George Soros.

I guess you think almost nothing is a above the fold 1/4 page placement on the frontpage.

msquared

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2022, 12:37:51 PM »
What the hell does that mean?

also, maybe we should ban body armor. That is not protected under the 2nd Amendment. The armed guard at the shop who shot the gunman but was then gunned down because the gunman had body armor.

Ban body armor for anyone who is not in law enforcement.

Ouija Nightmare

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2022, 12:53:51 PM »
What the hell does that mean?

also, maybe we should ban body armor. That is not protected under the 2nd Amendment. The armed guard at the shop who shot the gunman but was then gunned down because the gunman had body armor.

Ban body armor for anyone who is not in law enforcement.

We are almost at 200 mass shootings this year and we aren’t even halfway through the year.

Last year there were over 600.

The same for the year before.

I want extra tax on guns and ammo sales to outfit every single one of us with full body armor.

Their toys are making it hard to buy groceries.

Lloyd Perna

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2022, 01:00:01 PM »
Meanwhile, 33 people shot in Chicago this weekend 5 fatally.

https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-shooting-weekend-violence-crime-police/11855997/

Nothing on the national news about that.

msquared

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2022, 01:02:09 PM »
Because unfortunately that is not news. But a white Christian spouting the same rhetoric as Tucker Carlson and the other far right whackos is.

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2022, 01:33:34 PM »
Well  I bet Tucker Carlson is pleased.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/great-replacement-theory-try-language-090107600.html

Almost nothing from Fox News on this tragedy. Maybe because it was just 10+ black people gunned down by a young white Christian male.  Or maybe their employees support of the Great Replacement theory is coming back to haunt them.

Lets listen for the usual suspects skittering around trying to say why this was not all that bad and it was just a single deranged person and not a larger movement that the Right has been pushing for a few years now.  Or how this guy is actually a deep plant left wing false flag operative funded by Bill Gates and George Soros.

I guess you think almost nothing is a above the fold 1/4 page placement on the frontpage.

Right now there are plenty of pieces about the shooting.  But the oldest one I could find was from 24 hours ago (as of 10:30 AM, PST, Monday 5-15-22), which is about 17 hours after the shooting.  So it looks like it took Fox News (the network, not any of the local affiliates) more than half a day to notice the attack.

Can you find a story on the Fox News network site that is earlier?

Lloyd Perna

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2022, 01:47:32 PM »
Have you tried doing that analysis on CNN?

Ouija Nightmare

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2022, 01:52:38 PM »
Meanwhile, 33 people shot in Chicago this weekend 5 fatally.

https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-shooting-weekend-violence-crime-police/11855997/

Nothing on the national news about that.

Sounds like another vote for “tax arms sales and body armor for everyone!”

Lloyd Perna

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2022, 01:57:28 PM »
Meanwhile, 33 people shot in Chicago this weekend 5 fatally.

https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-shooting-weekend-violence-crime-police/11855997/

Nothing on the national news about that.

Sounds like another vote for “tax arms sales and body armor for everyone!”

More like a vote for "start enforcing the gun laws that are on the books".

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2022, 01:59:34 PM »
Why not mail a gun to every American? If you believe the pro gun crowd, we'd all be safer.

yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2022, 01:59:44 PM »
Meanwhile, 33 people shot in Chicago this weekend 5 fatally.

https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-shooting-weekend-violence-crime-police/11855997/

Nothing on the national news about that.

Sounds like another vote for “tax arms sales and body armor for everyone!”

More like a vote for "start enforcing the gun laws that are on the books".

So you support enabling the ATF to more efficiently track guns and gun sales so they can more easily identify straw purchasers and the gun dealers they buy from?

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2022, 02:00:25 PM »
Have you tried doing that analysis on CNN?

Here is CMM's list of articles, the first one dated 5-14 at 4:40 PM, and the next at 4:57 PM.

Here is Fox News list of articles, the first one dated 5-15, 4:55 AM.  Twelve hours later.

Any other questions?

Lloyd Perna

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2022, 02:01:22 PM »
Well  I bet Tucker Carlson is pleased.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/great-replacement-theory-try-language-090107600.html

Almost nothing from Fox News on this tragedy. Maybe because it was just 10+ black people gunned down by a young white Christian male.  Or maybe their employees support of the Great Replacement theory is coming back to haunt them.

Lets listen for the usual suspects skittering around trying to say why this was not all that bad and it was just a single deranged person and not a larger movement that the Right has been pushing for a few years now.  Or how this guy is actually a deep plant left wing false flag operative funded by Bill Gates and George Soros.

I guess you think almost nothing is a above the fold 1/4 page placement on the frontpage.

Right now there are plenty of pieces about the shooting.  But the oldest one I could find was from 24 hours ago (as of 10:30 AM, PST, Monday 5-15-22), which is about 17 hours after the shooting.  So it looks like it took Fox News (the network, not any of the local affiliates) more than half a day to notice the attack.

Can you find a story on the Fox News network site that is earlier?

Oh, here's one from 3:43 PM May 14th. About an hour after it happened.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220514213350/https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-police-mass-shooting-buffalo-grocery-store

You libtards have to stop with the disinformation.

Lloyd Perna

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2022, 02:05:04 PM »
Meanwhile, 33 people shot in Chicago this weekend 5 fatally.

https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-shooting-weekend-violence-crime-police/11855997/

Nothing on the national news about that.

Sounds like another vote for “tax arms sales and body armor for everyone!”

More like a vote for "start enforcing the gun laws that are on the books".

So you support enabling the ATF to more efficiently track guns and gun sales so they can more easily identify straw purchasers and the gun dealers they buy from?

No, I don't support that.  I support charging criminals found with illegal guns with felonies and prosecuting them to the full extent of the law.  Rather than pleading them out to misdemeanors and releasing them back into the street.

yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2022, 02:17:22 PM »
...
Quote
So you support enabling the ATF to more efficiently track guns and gun sales so they can more easily identify straw purchasers and the gun dealers they buy from?

No, I don't support that.  I support charging criminals found with illegal guns with felonies and prosecuting them to the full extent of the law.  Rather than pleading them out to misdemeanors and releasing them back into the street.

Let me understand this. Your plan is to wait for criminals to commit crimes with fire arms before doing anything about it and then don't try to track down the networks that get guns in the hands of criminals in the first place?

msquared

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2022, 02:19:38 PM »
Lloyd,
No comment on the shooters reasons for the shooting?

Ouija Nightmare

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2022, 02:25:07 PM »
Meanwhile, 33 people shot in Chicago this weekend 5 fatally.

https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-shooting-weekend-violence-crime-police/11855997/

Nothing on the national news about that.

Sounds like another vote for “tax arms sales and body armor for everyone!”

More like a vote for "start enforcing the gun laws that are on the books".

So you support enabling the ATF to more efficiently track guns and gun sales so they can more easily identify straw purchasers and the gun dealers they buy from?

No, I don't support that.  I support charging criminals found with illegal guns with felonies and prosecuting them to the full extent of the law.  Rather than pleading them out to misdemeanors and releasing them back into the street.


So your position is that all the guys engaging in this shootings are doing so with illegally owned firearms?

Also that we have no right to safety merely hoping that the perps will be found and prosecuted after we are laying in the cold hard ground?

Since you’re a big advocate of enforcing the laws we have on the books you’re also willing to step up and pay more taxes to help out our IRS? The country needs money badly. Oddly enough our tax collectors keep getting their budgets cut by the folks who have the most money to the point where they are barely even a functional unit of the government anymore. I’m sure it must be a coincidence I mean it’s not like it’s good business to not pay taxes right?






Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2022, 02:32:32 PM »
Well  I bet Tucker Carlson is pleased.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/great-replacement-theory-try-language-090107600.html

Almost nothing from Fox News on this tragedy. Maybe because it was just 10+ black people gunned down by a young white Christian male.  Or maybe their employees support of the Great Replacement theory is coming back to haunt them.

Lets listen for the usual suspects skittering around trying to say why this was not all that bad and it was just a single deranged person and not a larger movement that the Right has been pushing for a few years now.  Or how this guy is actually a deep plant left wing false flag operative funded by Bill Gates and George Soros.

I guess you think almost nothing is a above the fold 1/4 page placement on the frontpage.

Right now there are plenty of pieces about the shooting.  But the oldest one I could find was from 24 hours ago (as of 10:30 AM, PST, Monday 5-15-22), which is about 17 hours after the shooting.  So it looks like it took Fox News (the network, not any of the local affiliates) more than half a day to notice the attack.

Can you find a story on the Fox News network site that is earlier?

Oh, here's one from 3:43 PM May 14th. About an hour after it happened.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220514213350/https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-police-mass-shooting-buffalo-grocery-store

You libtards have to stop with the disinformation.

Don't blame me for Fox archiving a hot story less than 48 hours after it occurred.  How should I have known that they would already consider it old news? :)

Good catch finding it.

And don't call me libtard.  Any Trump supporter should first cast out the orange beam in his own eye.  ;D

Lloyd Perna

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2022, 02:41:19 PM »
Lloyd,
No comment on the shooters reasons for the shooting?

I have no idea what his reasons were.  I assume the guy is a racist *censored*. I also assume he is crazy. I would like to read what he posted online before the shooting but apparently, the ministry of truth doesn't think I should be able to.  I would also like to know what happened the last time he made threats but for some reason the feds wont release that information.

yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2022, 02:56:53 PM »
Lloyd,
No comment on the shooters reasons for the shooting?

I have no idea what his reasons were.  I assume the guy is a racist *censored*. I also assume he is crazy. I would like to read what he posted online before the shooting but apparently, the ministry of truth doesn't think I should be able to.  I would also like to know what happened the last time he made threats but for some reason the feds wont release that information.

Not being available has nothing to do with the "Ministry of Truth" and everything to do with the media realizing that widely publishing the screeds of mass shooters encourages more mass shooting because some mass shooters just want their message heard far and wide. But he probably isn't crazy in any medical sense. Racist and filled with hate, yes.

Ouija Nightmare

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2022, 03:06:53 PM »
Lloyd,
No comment on the shooters reasons for the shooting?

I have no idea what his reasons were.  I assume the guy is a racist *censored*. I also assume he is crazy. I would like to read what he posted online before the shooting but apparently, the ministry of truth doesn't think I should be able to.  I would also like to know what happened the last time he made threats but for some reason the feds wont release that information.

“Crazy” is something the gun nuts like to position as a reason for people doing this.

Law enforcement experience doesn’t bear it out. Most of them are as sane as you are.

They’re male and somehow feel disappointed with their lot in life and that there is some conspiracy that is oppressing them. (The gays,the left, Jews, black people, immigrants and so on)

That’s the common link.

The last time he made those threats about a year ago he got pulled out of school, had to get psychologically profiled and they locked down all the schools in the community for the day . Then they decided he was just another dumb white kid with a promising future and he went on to go to attend his local community college.

The weapons he used were in fact illegal in the state under the SAFE act. Legal as he purchased them then illegally modified. Had he been pulled over for a traffic violation on his drive out and searched he would have been in jail for a felony assuming he didn’t shoot the officer pulling him over.






Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2022, 04:32:59 PM »
They’re male and somehow feel disappointed with their lot in life and that there is some conspiracy that is oppressing them. (The gays,the left, Jews, black people, immigrants and so on)

That’s the common link.

There's a huge correlation/causation problem in this argument. I also find it peculiar to argue that a person can be perfectly sane while doing something insane. At the risk of making tautological statements, it sounds like one is just defining insanity in such a way as to make the right-wing sound worse on this, no? It would be more rational, if we were to avoid the sane/insane spectrum as a means of blaming a political spectrum, to instead ask why a person would do this. Not the stated political beliefs of the person, because that implies people know why they do things. You'd have to actually figure out what in that person's life was going wrong, for how long, and how it shaped their perception of reality. Once a person is way out of synch with reality it's sort of useless to ask what was on their mind at that point in time. Until people get real about asking actual questions about mass shooters and what happened to them, these events will just be tossed around like a political football to try to score brownie points. That's not great.

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2022, 05:20:50 PM »
Out of sync with reality like thinking that Mexicans are gonna take over and enslave the whites? Because that particular dumpster is very crowded. Not nearly enough room to institutionalize them all.

Being consumed with hate isn't a psychological problem outlined in the DSM as far as I know. People who commit hate crimes don't get off with insanity defenses, typically. Saying "it's crazy to shoot a bunch of random people based on their skin" may be correct on some level, but not what we usually use to declare someone incompetent.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2022, 05:26:06 PM »
Out of sync with reality like thinking that Mexicans are gonna take over and enslave the whites?

No you're still stuck in the political turf war box.

Quote
Being consumed with hate isn't a psychological problem outlined in the DSM as far as I know. People who commit hate crimes don't get off with insanity defenses, typically. Saying "it's crazy to shoot a bunch of random people based on their skin" may be correct on some level, but not what we usually use to declare someone incompetent.

Who said anything about getting off due to mental illness? I'm talking about causes. People can be messed up in ways that aren't in the DSM. For example, having the bitter feeling that there is no meaning in the world and that Good offers no reward is a worldview, not a mental illness, and such a worldview, if cemented, can lead to other things. This is the risk of eliminating all religious and philosophical language and being equipped only with the DSM and political labels. Those do not encompass even a small part of life.

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2022, 05:59:50 PM »
You want to know how sane people believe in crazy things?  It's the same way that people get drawn into cults.

It's the power of supporting your group.  Why Cubs fans are (were) loyal to their team, even if they were losing.  Why cops will protect their own, even if they are crooked.  It is a virtue in evolutionary terms, since groups are stronger than individuals.  So those who support their group are stronger..

But then, as P.Z. Myers explains it when talking about how the "America First" group started acting like a cult, it can be used to manipulate people into believing crazy things...

Quote
Quote
“[Members act so] racist and ridiculous in public that it ruins people’s lives,” said co-host Kelly Weill on the podcast. “You can’t go and get a normal job after that, so they turn further and further into this movement, which really does function almost like a cult.”

"The fact that Gosar and Greene, who have a modicum of power and influence, are entangled with Nick Fuentes, is revealing about the sad state of American politics. How can anyone in the halls of power take this guy seriously?"

That last paragraph, though, explains a lot. America First is openly and loudly racist, and its members have openly slapped that stigma on their records. This is how cults start: throw out one absurdity for your followers to accept, watch as the majority walk away, but the ones who stay…give ’em another absurdity. Then another. And another. You’ve got the few so deeply hooked that you can get them to do whatever you want. ... Fuentes is such a patently hateful fool that his followers have to be committed to stick by him, not by virtue of the quality of his arguments, but because they’re so stupid that admitting that leads to an exposure of their gullibility.

You convince them of extreme views in order for them to belong to the group, which isolates them from others, so that they have no other group they can belong to.  Which ties them closer to the group.  Then they have to accept even more extreme views, tying them closer.  A vicious feedback loop that can make (some) people, especially those who are already isolated and need a group, believe ridiculous things. They have to believe because they have no place else to go.

When the group becomes your life, it doesn't matter what the group believes.  You have to believe it, or you lose everything. :(

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2022, 06:07:56 PM »
You convince them of extreme views in order for them to belong to the group, which isolates them from others, so that they have no other group they can belong to.  Which ties them closer to the group.  Then they have to accept even more extreme views, tying them closer.  A vicious feedback loop that can make (some) people, especially those who are already isolated and need a group, believe ridiculous things. They have to believe because they have no place else to go.

When the group becomes your life, it doesn't matter what the group believes.  You have to believe it, or you lose everything. :(

I doubt these types of people feel like they belong to anything. I'm sure there are exceptions. What these types of shooters typically exhibit when they write stuff isn't political radicalization but personal demons. They are really troubled people. The fact that your theory ascribes mass shooters to being the fault of your political rivals should automatically make it clear that your theory isn't objective.

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2022, 06:50:15 PM »
What makes you think this theory only applies to my political rivals?  ;D

It applies to everyone--you and me, included.

It's just a matter of degree, and how much we depend on our groups... :(

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2022, 07:02:01 PM »
What makes you think this theory only applies to my political rivals?  ;D

How many shootings do you blame on Democrats brainwashing people?

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2022, 07:31:49 PM »
Doesn't have to be shootings.  Could be riots; could be sit-ins; could be that church you attend every week. :)

What matters is how extreme the beliefs are and how isolating they are.  And I suppose how much the ideology blames others, so that attacking The Other seems like a possible solution.  I doubt there are many Buddhist mass-murderers who are trying to accept whatever the fates give them. ;)

But tying irrational beliefs to the sense of community seems an excellent way of sustaining such beliefs.  Facts don't matter; proof doesn't matter; bad results don't matter.  If the alternative is being metaphorically sent out into the wilderness and becoming completely isolated, then almost nothing can shake the beliefs, especially for a person who fear such isolation--as we all do.  The greater the fear, the more the denial.

The process doesn't necessarily end with mass shootings.  It doesn't have to.  But it is the (a?) path that leads people to embrace extreme views that most people would consider stupid.  Because it isn't really about the views, but the solace of company they provide.  Just add hate and prejudice and blaming others for problems to the mixture and you're well on your way to shootings.  Just like the Weather Underground.  Or the SLA.  Or that idiot that thought that shooting Republican Senators would solve our problems a few years back.

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2022, 07:59:10 PM »
Can you find a story on the Fox News network site that is earlier?

Oh, here's one from 3:43 PM May 14th. About an hour after it happened.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220514213350/https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-police-mass-shooting-buffalo-grocery-store

You libtards have to stop with the disinformation.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-police-mass-shooting-buffalo-grocery-store

It still exists, but time stamp moved to 6:05PM, probably because they updated it with more information.

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2022, 08:09:24 PM »
But then, as P.Z. Myers explains it when talking about how the "America First" group started acting like a cult, it can be used to manipulate people into believing crazy things...

Quote
Quote
“[Members act so] racist and ridiculous in public that it ruins people’s lives,” said co-host Kelly Weill on the podcast. “You can’t go and get a normal job after that, so they turn further and further into this movement, which really does function almost like a cult.”

"The fact that Gosar and Greene, who have a modicum of power and influence, are entangled with Nick Fuentes, is revealing about the sad state of American politics. How can anyone in the halls of power take this guy seriously?"

That last paragraph, though, explains a lot. America First is openly and loudly racist, and its members have openly slapped that stigma on their records. This is how cults start: throw out one absurdity for your followers to accept, watch as the majority walk away, but the ones who stay…give ’em another absurdity. Then another. And another. You’ve got the few so deeply hooked that you can get them to do whatever you want. ... Fuentes is such a patently hateful fool that his followers have to be committed to stick by him, not by virtue of the quality of his arguments, but because they’re so stupid that admitting that leads to an exposure of their gullibility.

You convince them of extreme views in order for them to belong to the group, which isolates them from others, so that they have no other group they can belong to.  Which ties them closer to the group.  Then they have to accept even more extreme views, tying them closer.  A vicious feedback loop that can make (some) people, especially those who are already isolated and need a group, believe ridiculous things. They have to believe because they have no place else to go.

When the group becomes your life, it doesn't matter what the group believes.  You have to believe it, or you lose everything. :(

And this is why the Ministry of Truth, "remove all speech we disagree with from media platforms" approach was doomed to make things worse from the onset. The more people you force into the fringe for "wrong think" the more powerful you make that fringe. While simultaneously making it virtually impossible for anyone to try to walk those people back from the edge.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2022, 08:41:15 PM »
What matters is how extreme the beliefs are and how isolating they are.  And I suppose how much the ideology blames others, so that attacking The Other seems like a possible solution.  I doubt there are many Buddhist mass-murderers who are trying to accept whatever the fates give them. ;)

I think your notion that it's some kind of incorrect set of opinions that leads to mass shootings as is about as wrong as a theory can get. And like I said before, it's awfully convenient that these incorrect opinions just happen to be Republican opinions.

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2022, 11:19:04 AM »
What matters is how extreme the beliefs are and how isolating they are.  And I suppose how much the ideology blames others, so that attacking The Other seems like a possible solution.  I doubt there are many Buddhist mass-murderers who are trying to accept whatever the fates give them. ;)

I think your notion that it's some kind of incorrect set of opinions that leads to mass shootings as is about as wrong as a theory can get. And like I said before, it's awfully convenient that these incorrect opinions just happen to be Republican opinions.

Are you suggesting that mass shooting occur by people who happen to have correct opinions?  ;D  Unless you're an extremist, too, I think we can all agree that there has to be some "incorrect opinions" held by these shooters!  ;)

What I think you are finding inconvenient is that apparently about 75 percent of murders by political extremists over the past decade has been by right-wing extremists, with over half by white supremacists, according to the count by the Anti-Defamation League.

And I will say it again:  it is not the ideology per se that is the problem, it is the extremism of those who hold the ideology.  And at this time, the main groups that hold extremist ideologies (which includes blaming and hating others) are primarily those on the right.  Or at least it is more acceptable by more right-wing ideologies to use murder as a means to advance their ideology.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2022, 12:11:11 PM »
Are you suggesting that mass shooting occur by people who happen to have correct opinions?  ;D  Unless you're an extremist, too, I think we can all agree that there has to be some "incorrect opinions" held by these shooters!  ;)

You just need to re-read what I wrote above. Maybe a few times. You are risking sounding willfully blind on this issue.

NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2022, 12:15:39 PM »
Incorrect opinions, though beliefs is a better word than opinions, would be a necessary precondition for a mass shooting. Though it's clear that they aren't sufficient as many people appear to share the general beliefs of mass shooters without engaging in the same actions.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2022, 12:37:32 PM »
Incorrect opinions, though beliefs is a better word than opinions, would be a necessary precondition for a mass shooting. Though it's clear that they aren't sufficient as many people appear to share the general beliefs of mass shooters without engaging in the same actions.

Yeah, what I'm arguing is that it's not the particulars of the belief that matter, but the particularities of the individual's life. Someone who is miserable may well find their way to some bad beliefs, but those beliefs are not the cause but rather a symptom.

yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2022, 12:52:48 PM »
Slightly different topic but I'll state my gun control position here again. High power semi automatic rifles with magazines that can be easily modified to allow for high capacity magazines should be banned. For everyone who says a couple hand guns with magazine changes are as deadly look at the death toll from the NY City subway shooter vs the people who use AR-15s. The AR-15 is the weapon of choice for mass shooters for a reason. It maximizes body count.

NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2022, 12:54:37 PM »
Yeah, what I'm arguing is that it's not the particulars of the belief that matter, but the particularities of the individual's life. Someone who is miserable may well find their way to some bad beliefs, but those beliefs are not the cause but rather a symptom.

The particulars of the belief do matter. If someone copes with their life by devoting themselves to radical pacifism isn't going to decide that shooting up a supermarket full of black people is the correct thing to do. And there's only one political party at best tolerating the idea of the Great Replacement.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2022, 01:22:35 PM »
The particulars of the belief do matter. If someone copes with their life by devoting themselves to radical pacifism isn't going to decide that shooting up a supermarket full of black people is the correct thing to do. And there's only one political party at best tolerating the idea of the Great Replacement.

Ok, think of it like a seller's market. Someone is in the market for toxic ideas, there are always sellers around peddling something or other. It barely matters what the content is, someone who needs to latch onto something negative will find it. Or think of it like predatory payday loans: if you need it the terms don't matter, you're taking it. Or think of it in physical terms: if someone becomes a bad idea magnet because they're messed up, all sorts of metallic (i.e. negative) concepts will attract them. You can accuse the peddlers all you want, and I don't exactly begrudge a person having a bad opinion of payday loan sharks. But the question of why people need payday loans in the first place is at least as relevant as how payday loans fleece people. Likewise, even *if* Republicans were the ones peddling the toxic ideas, it still doesn't explain how these individuals are becoming magnetic/desperate. You'd have to argue that not only are Republicans selling the ideas, but that they are also directly making these people miserable such that they need the ideas.

I think it was clear enough from Trump's ascension that he did not create the conditions where people were upset, but merely monopolized on that present fact. And I suspect the same is true of Republicans (and this is granting fully your position that they are responsible for these ideas). Personally I think the source of the problem lies elsewhere, and that almost no one wants to talk about it. I think Joe Rogan's comment is worth considering: "This country has a mental health problem disguised as a gun problem and a tyranny problem disguised as a security problem." The statement may not be absolutely correct, but it's a correct way of looking at this sort of thing. A more data-driven approach is obviously needed if one was going to take the matter seriously, but the sorts of things feeding into overt problems are probably rarely to be found in the obvious.

NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2022, 01:38:11 PM »
We can also accuse the people who encourage payday loans to set up shop.

Rogan's quote is only true if by mental health you mean something other than conditions described
by the DSM. I don't believe mass shooters are likely to have a diagnosed mental illness. They are colloquially crazy rather than medically so. Unless he was referring to the number of people who use guns to commit suicide.

I have no problems arguing that Republicans are the ones making people miserable. If nothing else, there's the old line about liberals making mistakes and conservatives keeping mistakes from being fixed.

msquared

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2022, 01:39:57 PM »
So no comments from the Conservatives on the idea of the Great Replacement?  Tucker and those who are spouting it are just full of crap?

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2022, 01:43:48 PM »
Just to be clear, I'm far less interested in defending Republicans than I am about looking at the societal problem of mass shooters. This isn't just a problem relegated to the U.S., so the U.S. right-wing clearly cannot be responsible for the underlying phenomenon (if there is a common cause).

TheDrake

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2022, 01:53:45 PM »
It is largely a problem relegated to the US, at least in stable nations.

Quote
Typical (Median) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015):
United States — 0.058
Albania — 0
Austria — 0
Belgium — 0
Czech Republic — 0
Finland — 0
France — 0
Germany — 0
Italy — 0
Macedonia — 0
Netherlands — 0
Norway — 0
Russia — 0
Serbia — 0
Slovakia — 0
Switzerland — 0
United Kingdom — 0

Hm, how about that.

Quote
Australia banned all semi-automatic rifles and all semi-automatic and pump-action shotguns and thousands of unlicensed firearms were surrendered under a gun amnesty.

"We took hundreds of thousands of guns out of the community and the evidence since ... is that there have been no mass shootings since then, and the country is a much safer place," Howard told the Australian Broadcasting Corp on Wednesday.

It doesn't matter how crazy someone is or what kind of crazy they are, they do a lot less damage if they don't have rifles with high rates of fire. But you know, any day now Australia will become a tyrannical police state as a result. Some say it already is because they prevent sick people from running around infecting others. So I'll be less likely to be shot, and I'll be less likely to get a disease? Sounds like a win-win to me.

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2022, 02:18:19 PM »
Just to be clear, I'm far less interested in defending Republicans than I am about looking at the societal problem of mass shooters. This isn't just a problem relegated to the U.S., so the U.S. right-wing clearly cannot be responsible for the underlying phenomenon (if there is a common cause).

But that doesn't explain why about 75 percent of murders by political extremists over the past decade has been by right-wing extremists, does it?  If they were just psychos looking for an excuse, why do they primarily find it with right-wing groups?  Or even need a political excuse at all?

The particular ideology may not be at fault, but there must be something to those ideologies that attracts these shooters and gives them justification (if only to themselves).

There is also the question of what tips them over the edge into shooting?

NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Great Replacement?
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2022, 02:25:44 PM »
I think it might be similar to how mass violence worked out in the Reformation. Protestant riots usually would go and smash up Catholic churches and statues due to their iconoclasm. Catholics didn't have similar material targets so they tended to slaughter Protestants when their blood was up.

The racist and nationalistic ideologies associated with the "Right" seem to lend themselves well to murder as there are few material targets for their outrage. The anti-capitalist nature of left wing ideologies means they can satisfy themselves with going after property. Rich people who might be the targets of left wing mobs are also much harder targets (both in terms of protection and identification) than ordinary people of colour.