Author Topic: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...  (Read 4789 times)

jc44

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Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« on: May 25, 2022, 06:29:33 AM »
Title says it all really

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2022, 08:48:49 AM »
Dear conservative gun-nut parents. Stop teaching your children to use guns, don't give them access to guns, and don't teach them to worship guns like the individuals that have them are the Chosen People. These shootings are motivated by ego and power, which is fed by every post of you grinning with your long gun cocked at your hip. Please stop. I am not targeting any individual here, it is an open plea to the universe.

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2022, 09:36:36 AM »
Cost of "freedom:'( 
Nothing is going to change... at least not in a positive direction. I'm surprised, not really, that we still pretend, same stories, same spin, same outrage, same sadness, same prayers, same, same, same. what is it they say about insanity?

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These shootings are motivated by ego and power,
I might argue hopelessness and or fear

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2022, 10:23:40 AM »
Well, yes those are linked. Trying to erase hopeless or powerless feelings by deciding who lives or dies. But it starts with, "look how badass I am with my firearm". And then after getting positive responses, making sure you set up a livestream of your murders for your new fans.

Meanwhile, all the conservatives are mad at Joe Biden for making political points after "the tragedy". I forget how long conservatives wait to make political points about immigration after somebody gets killed by an immigrant? How long do they wait to make political points after somebody gets shot during a robbery about how police need more support? If a bridge collapses on a bunch of people, isn't it kind of natural to start talking about bridge safety, and having more inspections, and more investment in infrastructure? We don't usually wait quietly during mourning period to demand answers on how such a thing could have happened.

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2022, 10:38:37 AM »
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Meanwhile, all the conservatives are mad at Joe Biden for making political points after "the tragedy"
same old play book and enough hypocrisy to go around for everyone.

If those who say they really want to see changes to gun, abortion laws.... they say they actually care about, voted that way things might change. But they don't and wont. Just watch what happens in the mid terms.

If fingers have to be pointed I point it at the progressives who seem to have ADD - concerned about everything (mostly saying the 'right' things) while doing nothing. Look squirrel... lets get upset about that next thing.   

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2022, 10:59:00 AM »
Maybe we should just follow the Texas workaround to Constitutionality. Make it possible for private citizens to sue anyone who helps a mass shooter commit that crime. The Uber driver that dropped them off, the guy who sold them the gun, the ammo, anyone who instructed them how to use the gun, anyone giving advice on how to aim it...

msquared

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2022, 11:01:40 AM »
the victims for not being armed themselves.  I mean how irresponsible can they be?

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2022, 01:40:17 PM »
Maybe we should just follow the Texas workaround to Constitutionality. Make it possible for private citizens to sue anyone who helps a mass shooter commit that crime. The Uber driver that dropped them off, the guy who sold them the gun, the ammo, anyone who instructed them how to use the gun, anyone giving advice on how to aim it...

Maybe some state needs to pass a horrendous law like that to get the Supreme Court off their ass in striking down end runs around the constitution.

My position is again. No AR-15's (or similar semi-automatic high capacity, high power rifles). The death totals are way higher using that type of rifle than someone using handguns. Doubt the current supreme court would allow such restrictions. Maybe just let everyone mount 50 cals to their cars and trucks. Right to keep and bear arms. Who cares if our streets start seeing gun fights like we're in a war zone, gun rights shall not be infringed. Ignore that militia part.

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2022, 01:45:23 PM »
OH yeah, I was right. Breitbart is having their take on it. Blaming the shooter's assumed status as an "anchor baby".

Voted up 80 times:

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The overwhelming majority of mass shootings are done by brown people in this country.

And the browner it gets, the more mass shootings we will experience

The very first comment on that site, upvoted 662 times:

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They will quickly bury this story because the perp is not a white dude.

God only knows what's happening on newsmax and oan, BB is my limit on how much I can tolerate without puking.

Ouija Nightmare

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2022, 02:25:00 PM »
Maybe we should just follow the Texas workaround to Constitutionality. Make it possible for private citizens to sue anyone who helps a mass shooter commit that crime. The Uber driver that dropped them off, the guy who sold them the gun, the ammo, anyone who instructed them how to use the gun, anyone giving advice on how to aim it...

Maybe some state needs to pass a horrendous law like that to get the Supreme Court off their ass in striking down end runs around the constitution.

My position is again. No AR-15's (or similar semi-automatic high capacity, high power rifles). The death totals are way higher using that type of rifle than someone using handguns. Doubt the current supreme court would allow such restrictions. Maybe just let everyone mount 50 cals to their cars and trucks. Right to keep and bear arms. Who cares if our streets start seeing gun fights like we're in a war zone, gun rights shall not be infringed. Ignore that militia part.


Just have a few peaceful protests outside Supreme Court homes say ten thousand well armed people holding a torchlit vigil. Laws will change.

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2022, 02:27:59 PM »
Maybe we should just follow the Texas workaround to Constitutionality. Make it possible for private citizens to sue anyone who helps a mass shooter commit that crime. The Uber driver that dropped them off, the guy who sold them the gun, the ammo, anyone who instructed them how to use the gun, anyone giving advice on how to aim it...

Maybe some state needs to pass a horrendous law like that to get the Supreme Court off their ass in striking down end runs around the constitution.

My position is again. No AR-15's (or similar semi-automatic high capacity, high power rifles). The death totals are way higher using that type of rifle than someone using handguns. Doubt the current supreme court would allow such restrictions. Maybe just let everyone mount 50 cals to their cars and trucks. Right to keep and bear arms. Who cares if our streets start seeing gun fights like we're in a war zone, gun rights shall not be infringed. Ignore that militia part.


Just have a few peaceful protests outside Supreme Court homes say ten thousand well armed people holding a torchlit vigil. Laws will change.

The laws will change but probably not in the way you want. Laws to ban the speech or bearing arms around the justices but nothing for the rest of us.

Ouija Nightmare

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2022, 02:29:37 PM »
Maybe we should just follow the Texas workaround to Constitutionality. Make it possible for private citizens to sue anyone who helps a mass shooter commit that crime. The Uber driver that dropped them off, the guy who sold them the gun, the ammo, anyone who instructed them how to use the gun, anyone giving advice on how to aim it...

Maybe some state needs to pass a horrendous law like that to get the Supreme Court off their ass in striking down end runs around the constitution.

My position is again. No AR-15's (or similar semi-automatic high capacity, high power rifles). The death totals are way higher using that type of rifle than someone using handguns. Doubt the current supreme court would allow such restrictions. Maybe just let everyone mount 50 cals to their cars and trucks. Right to keep and bear arms. Who cares if our streets start seeing gun fights like we're in a war zone, gun rights shall not be infringed. Ignore that militia part.


Just have a few peaceful protests outside Supreme Court homes say ten thousand well armed people holding a torchlit vigil. Laws will change.

The laws will change but probably not in the way you want. Laws to ban the speech or bearing arms around the justices but nothing for the rest of us.

Indeed. Some pigs are more equal than others.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2022, 06:06:51 PM »
Hypothetically, what if this were happening two or three times a week? Or every day? Or two or three times a day? Mass shootings including in elementary schools?

And what if most of the shootings were being committed by people with no criminal records who bought their guns legally?

Just wondering where the tipping point is at which point the right to bear arms is overwhelmed by the inability to stop these types of mass shootings.

And what is the law Democrats propose to change this, the law that will stop it?

Wayward Son

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2022, 06:31:31 PM »
We're not going to stop it.

But we can make it more difficult.  We can make it less convenient.  We can slow them down, maybe give police a chance to notice that something is wrong with the situation and maybe, sometimes, take their guns away before they can use them or buy them.

Which means we can stop some of them.

What laws do Republicans support that will make it more difficult for these killers to get their hands on these deadly guns?

Because for the last decade, they have opposed every attempt to limit killers' ability to get guns legally.

I look forward to hearing your ideas.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2022, 07:36:12 PM »
Like with most of the Democrats' new laws, my suggestion wouldn't help a case like this where a person with no criminal record goes berserk and intends to die, but if we're talking about people getting shot and shot to death in general, I'd suggest laws, and they'd have to be state laws, (or a Constitutional Amendment that may have to clarify the 8th) that anyone convicted of using a firearm in the commission of a crime is sentenced to life in prison without parole, yes even for the first offense. That would mean someone like George Floyd wouldn't have gotten out of prison after only five years when convicted of being in a home invasion crew who pointed a gun at a pregnant woman's womb. Maybe he'd still be alive. But at least that would show that Democrats are serious about preventing the crimes that gun rights people feel the government won't stop from happening to them so they need to defend themselves. Before Republicans can take Democrats seriously regarding gun control, we need much more effective criminal control.

Of course, that would just be a starting point. Self defense against criminals is only one purpose for the 2nd Amendment, and not the primary one. But it would be a start. And again, it wouldn't have prevented this attack, but it would save a lot of other people from getting shot to death by repeat offenders who are caught and released over and over again in the revolving door of our so called criminal justice system. But anyway, that's my suggestion.

Tougher justice. If we're looking for some deterrents, I'm also up for Singapore style caning for the ones who don't die in their shootout with the police, like the punk in Buffalo. Life in prison with no parole and at certain intervals a humiliating public caning. If that's too harsh, then maybe just a firm whiffle paddling from the prison warden no harsher than little kids used to get in elementary school for sticking gum under the desk if the left is too squeamish for the Singapore cane. The point is, whatever deterrent effect our prison system is supposed to be having, it's obviously not enough. Hard labor should be back on the table too.

The main point is the left always wants to punish the innocent by making them helpless against criminals instead of protecting the innocent by keeping those proven violent criminals off the streets and seriously deterring the wannabes. And nothing against rehabilitation. Go ahead and rehabilitate them. Then after they are deemed no longer a threat to the public and it's safe to release them, keep them in prison for the rest of their lives anyway. And have them work hard so it's not just a total drain on the taxpayers.

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2022, 09:18:01 PM »
Not sure how locking people up for life for carrying while driving under the influence makes us safer. All that law does is exacerbate our leading in prison population per capita. It would cause more people to be willing to kill everyone, armed robbery and murder have the same punishment in your world. No reason to leave any witnesses behind. People usually aren’t thinking about the consequences when they commit a crime, 10 years or life in prison doesn’t change the calculus that much because they are expecting to get away with it. It would make carrying a weapon much more legally risky. Accidentally shop lift while legally carrying a weapon. Instead of probation, life in prison. This does almost nothing to reduce crime while coming with a huge price tag monetarily and societally.

I’ve posted my idea for reducing the deaths in these situations. No assault rifles. Compare the outcome of the NY subway shooter to mass shootings involving AR-15s. You can have, pistols, shotguns, and hunting rifles. Just get rid of the mass murder weapons.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2022, 09:43:13 PM »
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm talking about locking people up for life for violent gun crimes.

So that wouldn't include the dummy who forgets to take his gun out of his luggage at the airport. Or who had a child get ahold of a gun they didn't properly secure. Those crimes could have the same punishment they have now.

I'm talking about people who use a gun, whether or not it's fired, in the commission of a violent crime.

If you want to throw violent knife crimes in there too then I wouldn't mind, but not throwing it in wouldn't be a deal breaker if guns are the main thing concerning people. It wouldn't affect a crime like this one, but it would at least show we're serious about gun crimes and you could count on Republicans to get on board for that.

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2022, 09:21:10 AM »
I think poisoners, epically those locked up forever, should be allowed to exercise their right to own guns.

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2022, 09:50:12 AM »
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm talking about locking people up for life for violent gun crimes.

So that wouldn't include the dummy who forgets to take his gun out of his luggage at the airport. Or who had a child get ahold of a gun they didn't properly secure. Those crimes could have the same punishment they have now.

I'm talking about people who use a gun, whether or not it's fired, in the commission of a violent crime.
...

So much more limited. How about the Republican candidate for Senate from Georgia? Lock him up forever? He pointed a gun at his ex-wife's head.

NobleHunter

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2022, 10:15:25 AM »
Though making certain types of guns less available may not have helped in this case since the cops let the shooter barricade himself in a room with his victims and then sat on their hands for most of an hour.

So much for the "good guy with a gun" solution.

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2022, 10:39:08 AM »
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101434831/public-camping-felony-tennessee-homeless-seek-refuge

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Tennessee is about to become the first U.S. state to make it a felony to camp on local public property such as parks.
...
Tennessee already made it a felony in 2020 to camp on most state-owned property.

How about camping on public lands with a gun? Felony. Is that violent trespass in your book? Lock people up for life being homeless and armed?

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2022, 10:43:38 AM »
Though making certain types of guns less available may not have helped in this case since the cops let the shooter barricade himself in a room with his victims and then sat on their hands for most of an hour.

So much for the "good guy with a gun" solution.

Maybe banning AR's doesn't help in this one case but from looking at death tolls of mass shootings over the last several years it seems like it would help in most cases. Or maybe the cops wouldn't have been as reluctant to engage in a shootout with someone who didn't outgun them. There is no feasible law or action that 100% prevents all of these. Only laws that make them slightly more rare with fewer deaths.

msquared

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2022, 10:55:41 AM »
Remember most conservatives are now black and white view point people. If you are not able to get rid of school shooting totally, then do nothing. You have to end all abortion.  You have to eliminate all fraud from elections. There is no grey area or working towards a goal. Their way 100% or you are un American.

ScottF

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2022, 10:57:38 AM »
#banAR15 is as generically useless as #thoughtsandprayers

The AR happens to be one of the most popular semi-auto rifles, but "banning ARs" wouldn't do anything. Banning semi-automatic rifles would first need a clear definition of what semi-automatic means, and I've never seen anyone knowledgeable actually attempt to do this.

Anyone proposing laws or regulations that clearly wouldn't prevent these kinds of shooting incidents - or worse, spouting "stricter gun laws" (as if that means anything) isn't part of an adult conversation.

The US has a unique multi-variate problem. Lots of guns, tons of mind-altering meds being prescribed to children early and often, and dysfunctional social media acting like a magnifier. Those three elements have created thousands of bombs waiting to blow.

ScottF

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2022, 11:02:54 AM »
Remember most conservatives are now black and white view point people. If you are not able to get rid of school shooting totally, then do nothing. You have to end all abortion.  You have to eliminate all fraud from elections. There is no grey area or working towards a goal. Their way 100% or you are un American.

The irony of you accusing "most" conservatives of holding non-absolute points of view is kind of funny.

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2022, 11:04:07 AM »
Semi-automatic is a well defined gun property. You can also regulate magazine capacity. 

NobleHunter

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2022, 11:25:06 AM »
The AR happens to be one of the most popular semi-auto rifles, but "banning ARs" wouldn't do anything. Banning semi-automatic rifles would first need a clear definition of what semi-automatic means, and I've never seen anyone knowledgeable actually attempt to do this.

I'm curious about how semi-automatic can be unclear. I mean, the old "assault weapon" definition seemed to be more concerned with appearance than lethality and one could argue about what exactly counts as an "assault rifle" but semi-automatic is pretty straightforward.

Wayward Son

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2022, 11:36:21 AM »
What you are probably thinking of, Scott, is assault rifles, which is a somewhat nebulous category.

But they are also the rifles of choice for those who fantasize that they are "killing machines." :( Just look at how many AR-15 and similar guns are used in these mass-slaughter attacks.

I would propose banning any gun that reasonably resembles a military-style assault gun.  I don't think it would be that difficult to define (handles on the top for carrying, large magazines, barrel-coolers, etc.--we had such a definition in the old legislation).  If a few border-line cases slip through, it is no big deal.  We're just trying to take the military/macho aura out of civilian guns.

I might even allow military-style guns if they were painted pink with daisies and cute little cartoon animals.  Just imagine someone pretending he is Rambo with one of those. :)

The good thing about this is that it would not infringe on any right to bear arms.  As we have been told repeatedly, assault rifles are not different than any other semi-automatic rifle.  So, anyone who wants such a rifle can buy any of those other rifles, just not assault rifles.

How it would help is to take away one part of the sick fantasy of being killing machine that can slaughter at will.  Perhaps eliminating that small part could prevent a few mass shootings.  A small price to pay for saving innocent lives.

JoshuaD

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2022, 03:49:38 PM »
It's crazy that we let this go on. Something must be done.

As I've been saying for a while, we need to close public schools. They are a vehicle for the spread of many horrible ideas to our children, public school teachers sexually abuse students under their care, in many states parents are forced to send their kids there, and now they are becoming shooting galleries for the deranged.

Close public schools; problems solved.

Fenring

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2022, 03:51:49 PM »
As I've been saying for a while, we need to close public schools.

Do you mean to only have private (i.e. privately funded) schools? Or do you mean smaller school groups in local communities? It strikes me that in theory if someone wanted to shoot up a group of people they would just seek out the largest group available, no? If that wasn't a public school wouldn't it be a private school, or the next best thing?

msquared

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2022, 04:01:16 PM »
We should close grocery stores and McDonalds as well. I mean there have been mass shootings at those locations as well.

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2022, 04:37:35 PM »
And nightclubs. Concerts. Churches.

JoshuaD

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2022, 05:50:34 PM »
People aren't taxed and then forced to send their kids to get food at McDonalds, or taxed and then forced to go to a nightclub. I cook for my family and I have my budget that can afford it. Sure, a guy can break into my house and do something horrible, but at least it won't be a cafeteria where 500 families are forced to eat every day.

Close the schools and you solve the biggest problem against our most vulnerable. And you do other good for our society as well.

We have to do something. This would help a lot. If someone opposes this, doesn't that mean that they're hateful or selfish or callous or something? This would help save lives. I thought in times like this we're not allowed to think about anything but the tragedy at hand.

Or is that only true when the person in question is opposed to gun control?

rightleft22

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2022, 05:55:25 PM »
Quote
Close public schools; problems solved.
This argument is actually gaining popularity for the overall movement where conservatism = going back in time to when Men were Men and Woman were Woman and Government was managed by the Few who know what's good for everyone. Only those making such arguments - close public schools - wont say that and or don't realize that that is what they are calling for when the make such arguments.

Close all public schools = screw the poor.  Back to the good old days of feudalism.
Equality, as in everyone has a equal chance to the pursuit of happiness, starts with equal access to good nutrition and education.  But yeah lets go back in time when things were so much better for everyone.

Fenring

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2022, 06:00:16 PM »
Close all public schools = screw the poor.  Back to the good old days of feudalism.

Not sure what I think about closing public schools, but it's funny you should say this now when the middle class has been under attack for quite a while. Nutrition/science is obviously better, as are supply chains, but honestly this is a tech development rather than a social one. I think there's an argument to be made that we're more feudal now than we were 50 years ago.

Wayward Son

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2022, 06:33:34 PM »
So now it's guns don't kill people; schools kill people?  ;D

Schools do a lot of good for individuals and society.  An educated populace is a productive populace.  An educated electorate makes better decisions than an uneducated electorate.  Do you think we reached this level of technology and prosperity without an educated workforce and advancing the best and the brightest from all our population?

An interesting solution--stop all school shootings by eliminating all schools--but that is like stopping all headaches by cutting off all heads.  It's a solution that's worse than the problem, and doesn't really address the root cause of the problem.

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2022, 07:24:29 PM »
Was the school thing a serious proposition? Satire of the right is hard to spot in the age of trump.

Fenring

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2022, 09:28:07 PM »
Schools do a lot of good for individuals and society.  An educated populace is a productive populace.  An educated electorate makes better decisions than an uneducated electorate.  Do you think we reached this level of technology and prosperity without an educated workforce and advancing the best and the brightest from all our population?

I don't personally think much education happens in schools in the technical sense. I think if I had to assign rankings to the most important functions of elementary and high school it would be:

1) Day care - keep the kids away from the parents
2) Socialization
3) Obedience training (#2 and #3 are arguably in the wrong order here)
4) Learning basic intellectual skills, e.g. math etc.

#4 is the lesser of these by far IMO, as most high school knowledge could be learned in a very short time compared with the sheer hours spent in classes over 12 years. Not that they learn nothing, but aside from preliminary math which is useful even as a teen, I don't think that much knowledge or technical skill is imparted in high school for instance. That being said I would not want to underestimate how important the socialization element is, so getting rid of that would have an effect. Home school groups are an option but probably lose out on #1, the most important reason of them all in a household with two working parents (or a single parent who works).

cherrypoptart

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2022, 07:32:36 AM »
yossarian22c

"So much more limited. How about the Republican candidate for Senate from Georgia? Lock him up forever? He pointed a gun at his ex-wife's head."

It would depend on the details but assuming it wasn't self defense then yes. Why not? We are way too soft on crime. Nobody can take Democrats seriously on gun control while they are simultaneously, constantly, letting very dangerous criminals out of prison.

If Democrats were serious about amending the Constitution to get the gun laws they really want, part of the discussion and in the end the great compromise would be keeping people who have proven themselves dangerous locked up for good. Of course that doesn't do anything to address the main point of the 2nd Amendment which is to facilitate a successful revolution against a tyrannical government, but if you showed people that our society was safe, then a lot more of them would be willing to consider giving up their ability to defend themselves. I'm not promising I would, not yet, but I can promise most people won't even consider it with the crime rate we have today.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2022, 09:02:51 AM »
I see the catch 22 there too. Can't give up guns for self defense with this high crime rate and can't get the crime rate down with all of these guns. So if there is no way to get the crime rate down while still having all those guns out there then we're stuck because the political support for making people helpless against violent criminals, whether the criminal has a gun or a knife or bare hands, will never happen.

I don't know if it's really true or not, but supposedly some of the countries that did end up with gun bans like Australia ended up with more violent crime afterwards as thugs had nothing to be afraid of from their potential victims.

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2022, 09:33:18 AM »
I see the catch 22 there too. Can't give up guns for self defense with this high crime rate and can't get the crime rate down with all of these guns. So if there is no way to get the crime rate down while still having all those guns out there then we're stuck because the political support for making people helpless against violent criminals, whether the criminal has a gun or a knife or bare hands, will never happen.

I don't know if it's really true or not, but supposedly some of the countries that did end up with gun bans like Australia ended up with more violent crime afterwards as thugs had nothing to be afraid of from their potential victims.

Not really true.

https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/crime-and-justice/recorded-crime-victims/2020

Sexual assaults are up, but there are lots of sociological factors that may have increased willingness to report over the years. Robberies, thefts, physical assaults are all down over the last decade.

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2022, 09:35:34 AM »
Are you helpless against criminals if you can't get your hands on a semi-automatic long gun? Yes, it is possible to find anecdotes where a homeowner happened to defend themselves against multiple intruders using an AR-15. It is unclear if the people in question would have been less successful defending themselves with a semi-automatic pistol, or a shotgun.

AR-15s are good at killing a lot of people all at once. Perfect for mass killers, drug dealers, gang members. Rarely a needed capability for home defense, and utterly useless defending oneself against a criminal in open ground.

There are so many problems with the lock them up forever rule - which we sort of tried with 3 strikes rules. This is a 1 strike rule, and I doubt it would be more effective in creating the civil utopia with all the bad people put in prison forever. Among other things, every case would go to trial because there would be no more plea bargains. I don't know where you're going to get your lawyers from for that, or did you just want to get an amendment to due process?

yossarian22c

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2022, 09:37:54 AM »
yossarian22c

"So much more limited. How about the Republican candidate for Senate from Georgia? Lock him up forever? He pointed a gun at his ex-wife's head."

It would depend on the details but assuming it wasn't self defense then yes. Why not? ...

Well apparently close to half the state of Georgia, including all the tough on crime Republicans, seem to think he should be spending his time in the Senate instead of prison.

But those types of mandatory minimums wouldn't make us safer. Let me ask you a question, you go to your local bank with your family, man walks in with a gun to rob it, would you rather he get the same prison sentence for leaving everyone dead as everyone alive?

Wayward Son

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2022, 12:10:14 PM »
One other minor problem with cherry's idea is that it deals with the problem after the fact rather than before the fact.  It punishes crime, rather than prevents it.

Punishment will prevent many crimes, but as we've seen over the years, it does not prevent most of it.  And it certainly does nothing to mitigate the effects of the crime once it has happened.

Making it more difficult for criminals and crazies to get their hands on guns prevents some crime from happening.  Which means it prevents the effects of those crimes, especially the ones where the criminal either thinks he will get away with it or doesn't care what happens to him.  A double-win.

Now, there is no reason why we can't have some gun reform--enhanced background checks, gun licensing, gun safety training, required insurance for gun ownership--in addition to enhance penalties for using a gun in a crime.  Attacking crime from both sides--prevention and punishment--would do much more in reducing crime than just punishment.  Especially since punishment has not been terribly effective in the past.

TheDrake

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2022, 12:23:47 PM »
I don't think he made the argument that punishment would prevent all crimes, rather that if we prevented repeat crimes, then people would be willing to give up their assault rifles?

Making fewer nonviolent transactions crimes could make more room in the prisons for actually dangerous people, that would be a start. It would also make fewer people dangerous - not many people driving trucks full of tobacco are as heavily armed as people transporting narcotics.

Some people return to crime because of the mark of stigma that keeps ex-felons from getting jobs to pay the bills. We could fix that too.

We could give our population universal access to counseling and mood stabilizing medications at no cost to the individual as well.

But those solutions wouldn't be "hard on crime", so no support from the righteous right who must smite with might! They'd rather spend $10 on incarceration than $1 on prevention.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2022, 05:14:02 PM »
We still haven't come to the law that needs to be passed that would have prevented this school shooting.

Until now.

"A Supreme Court justice’s solution to gun violence: Repeal Second Amendment"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-supreme-court-justice-e2-80-99s-solution-to-gun-violence-repeal-second-amendment/ar-AAXPhQV

"Stevens’s op-ed came just a few years after he issued a proposal to amend the Second Amendment, in his book “Six Amendments: How and Why We Should Change the Constitution,” which was excerpted in a 2014 Washington Post opinion piece. Stevens suggested adding five words (in italics below) to the amendment: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms when serving in the Militia shall not be infringed.”

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I do have one question about that. So let's say that passed. Who then would be eligible to own a gun? Carry it around in public like to the supermarket? Who is the Militia?

But at least that's something that might have prevented this shooting. I haven't seen any other proposals. Sure take away the assault weapons which could make a difference in many shootings but that wouldn't have stopped this shooting since it could have been done with just about any gun.


Fenring

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2022, 12:22:05 AM »
Wouldn't outlawing militias be a simple way to ban guns if guns were relegated only to militias? Especially because the clause "being necessary to the security of a free State" appears to be moot at this point anyhow. Technically that clause seems to merely imply that one expects militias to always be around, hence they need to be armed. I suppose its phrasing didn't consider the possibility that they might become irrelevant.

NobleHunter

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2022, 10:30:12 AM »
The federal government can't abolish the militias. Though they may be able to screw around with standards enough to make them untenable. I'm sure someone with more interest in constitutional minutia could clear it up. They were probably aware that militias could become irrelevant but I think there was disagreement on how much effort should be expended on trying to prevent it.

Fenring

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2022, 12:17:54 PM »
The federal government can't abolish the militias.

It also depends on how one defines militia. For instance if a group of concerned citizens (i.e. a militia) takes up arms to fight off a landed invasion in their state from overseas, I guess in a manner of speaking you don't want to make it illegal to do that. Practically speaking you can't make it illegal because in the very circumstance where such a defense is needed I imagine it already means the military is at its limit in terms of how much it's doing already. But if by militia one means "private military force" in the sense of taking positive action against enemies of the U.S., then I'm pretty sure it would be pretty easy to ban a militia group from, for example, going to war with a foreign country on their soil 'in defense of America'. It has become commonly accepted political doctrine at this point that 'defense of America' absolutely includes invading foreign countries, but a militia would certainly not enjoy the privilege of being able to defend America in this fashion on their own accord.

msquared

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Re: Thoughts and Prayers - Again...
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2022, 12:21:37 PM »
Cherry

Are you a Christian?  If so how do you square those ideas with the teachings of Jesus about forgiveness and redemption?