Author Topic: The Trump Papers  (Read 3326 times)

TheDrake

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The Trump Papers
« on: August 26, 2022, 09:05:33 AM »
So we have big news about the redacted affadavit. What will be the number one conservative talking point? I'm placing odds.

4:1 This proves their witnesses were biased!
3:1 This proves they had no probable cause to search!
2:1 This proves they are lying liars, that can't be true!
19:1 This proves that the affadavit was printed in China!
10e6:1 This proves that the FBI had a legitimate warrant!

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2022, 09:11:56 AM »
What are they trying to hide with all of those redactions?  We are not able to tell who the mole is with all of those redactions. How can we publicly denounce the traitor in our midst if their name is not listed.

Mynnion

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2022, 09:47:35 AM »
Since everything is declassified why the need for redactions :)

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2022, 09:56:46 AM »
Still waiting for any one other than Trump from the Trump Admin to say that there was a standing order that any document that left the Oval Office was declassified. Two of his Chief of Staff said that it did not exist while they were there.

Is it not SOP to write standing orders down so that there is a record of them? Where is the record?

yossarian22c

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2022, 10:02:25 AM »
Still waiting for any one other than Trump from the Trump Admin to say that there was a standing order that any document that left the Oval Office was declassified. Two of his Chief of Staff said that it did not exist while they were there.

Is it not SOP to write standing orders down so that there is a record of them? Where is the record?

In Trump's basement  ;D.

NobleHunter

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2022, 10:19:26 AM »
I'm going with "they redacted all the parts that prove they're corrupt."

I'm interested if the commentary will say this affidavit differs from the usual sort or not.

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2022, 12:31:33 PM »
The redactions are there to insulate "important" players from getting caught. Police all have body-cams now for their own benefit. FBI agents like Strzok get fired far too late.

BTW; there is no requirement for any record of de-Classification by the President. If he says anything is declassified, then it is. All the boxes of documents were boxed-up and safely stored at Mara-A-Lago before Biden was sworn in. The NARA librarians passed on it at the time. The PRA says it was all done correctly and legally. Please stop the attacks and biased imaginings. It's a done-fact with no records needed.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2022, 12:38:46 PM »
There should be a record of the order that allows him to do this.  Where is that record?

TheDrake

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2022, 12:46:52 PM »
His declassification order is classified? :D

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2022, 12:47:48 PM »
BTW; now that the affidavit was released, The blacked-out sections are almost total. Who has fact on their side? The only justification I've heard is that they are "government documents." I guess they don't know the law.

The "Probable Cause" section was the most highly redacted. One claim is that, although Trump was cooperative, and had put NARA requests for SKIFF-level security, the documents were thought to be dangerous and not personal property. The raid had no purpose other than fishing for dirt.

NobleHunter

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2022, 12:49:54 PM »
BTW; there is no requirement for any record of de-Classification by the President. If he says anything is declassified, then it is. All the boxes of documents were boxed-up and safely stored at Mara-A-Lago before Biden was sworn in. The NARA librarians passed on it at the time. The PRA says it was all done correctly and legally. Please stop the attacks and biased imaginings. It's a done-fact with no records needed.

In the same way that you don't need a record of being married to be married (theologically speaking)?. It's just very tricky to prove it to anyone else. It's why witnesses are required. You wouldn't happen to have any witnesses to Trump saying the material was declassified?

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2022, 12:53:14 PM »
His declassification order is classified? :D

No He publicly announced they were declassified. Why is that so hard for you to get? The act is the declassification with no records needed. Anything else could be negotiated which was the on-going procedure, which Trump followed scrupulously. There was no logical and legal probably cause (Which was redacted.) Scrupulous is something the FBI apparatchiks need to learn.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2022, 12:54:16 PM »
Quote
The redactions are there to insulate "important" players from getting caught.
Among other reasons, and for given values of the word "important," yes. They will almost certainly redact or encode the names and identifying details of any informants who might testify in a later trial, any agents who were dispatched to enforce the affidavit, any investigation targets, and anything that might be used to identify the specific nature of documents that were last known to be sufficiently classified that acknowledging their nature and existence is itself a violation of statute.

Quote
BTW; there is no requirement for any record of de-Classification by the President. If he says anything is declassified, then it is. All the boxes of documents were boxed-up and safely stored at Mara-A-Lago before Biden was sworn in.
I want to point out three things: 1) There is indeed a requirement for declassification. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you. This could potentially go to court to carve out some special "the president can declassify things by claiming to have thought about it without telling anyone," and possibly our truly terrible SCOTUS would find in his favor for purely partisan reasons, but I think you'll agree that this position is untenable and frankly ridiculous on its face; 2) boxing up a document and "safely" storing it does not declassify it; 3) NARA never "passed" on their attempts to collect these documents, and have been very consistent about saying that all such documents belong to them.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2022, 12:55:06 PM »
Quote
No He publicly announced they were declassified.
When, precisely?

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2022, 01:20:13 PM »
I'll elaborate on why this matters, speaking as someone who works in IT for a fusion lab and has to deal with securing physical and electronic nuclear secrets on a regular basis:

1) There is a legal obligation to anyone aware of a physical document marked in a way that identifies it as classified and not possessed of the proper clearances (or unsure whether they have the appropriate clearances) to report the presence of that document to a proper authority (which varies depending on the type of document). In many industries, you cannot be employed without receiving considerable training on this point, including the legal consequences that may pertain to anyone who fails to report. (Consequences may vary depending on several factors.)
2) A similar responsibility pertains to anyone reading a document that contains information that should be explicitly classified but has not been marked as such. (You can still be imprisoned for passing on a file that isn't marked "Top Secret" if it should have been, and the only defense against that is if the material is secret enough that you had no way of even knowing that it should have been secret. Even then, you are trained that it's far better to assume that any document discussing certain material should be classified, even if unmarked, and report.)
3) It is the legal responsibility of the person receiving the report to verify that, based on what they've been told, they have the proper authority to validate the appropriate physical security of the document and ensure that it is not seen by other people with insufficient access. If they don't have proper authority, it is their job to escalate.
4) A security audit has to follow, ensuring that anyone who has seen or may have seen the document is questioned and investigated. The document itself is secured and its contents may be considered compromised. If it was improperly unlabeled, it will be labeled; if it was improperly secured, it will be secured. "Improper" in both those cases is defined by statute. All actions taken are recorded in the audit log associated with this document. (If the document is being correctly classified for the first time, that will be noted in the audit log; otherwise, a log will already exist.)
5) If the document is re- or declassified, it is physically marked and recoded to reflect its new classification. This event is recorded in the audit log.
6) If the president decides to physically hand someone a classified document and retroactively decides to declassify it, both the improper handover and the declassification decision are noted in the audit log, and the document is modified to note its declassification.

You'll notice that at no point is there a legal out for "but a former president said he declassified this some time in the past." You don't, as an agent of the government, get to use that excuse. You are legally mandated on penalty of prison time to follow these procedures and, equally importantly, ensure that they are followed. While certain executives above you in the chain of command have more discretion, notably one of the executives not included in that list is any former federal employee.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2022, 01:34:40 PM »
I've had time to read both the redacted affidavit and the document giving the rationale for the redactions. One thing that's very important to note is that, according to the affidavit, the documents seized were not in fact "properly stored" according to their marked security classifications. While it's possible that Trump did in fact somehow officially declassify all these documents before he took them -- and, again, there would need to be a record of that for that to be true -- it's worth noting that agents of the government are legally obligated to seize and properly secure these files until their classification status can be verified.

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2022, 02:01:00 PM »
I've had time to read both the redacted affidavit and the document giving the rationale for the redactions. One thing that's very important to note is that, according to the affidavit, the documents seized were not in fact "properly stored" according to their marked security classifications. While it's possible that Trump did in fact somehow officially declassify all these documents before he took them -- and, again, there would need to be a record of that for that to be true -- it's worth noting that agents of the government are legally obligated to seize and properly secure these files until their classification status can be verified.

No, it would not be required for them to be recorded for that to be true. The PRA acknowledges that the President IS the Declassifier-in-chief. There is no bureaucratic nit-picker who has a higher authority. There is no legislative overlord who gets to say to do it my way, or else. The President IS the DOJ and the ultimate arbiter in the process. Every Constitutional expert I've seen (on almost every network) agrees with this. Name a legitimate source that contradicts that the President has ultimate authority. There aren't any.

The other point you all seem to want to ignore, is that the DOJ violated its own procedural handbook by making this raid, like they did. Contrast this to the whistle-blowing coming out of the real FBI agents who are sick to see these apparatchiks ruining their FBI for party politics. They've discussed how the Hillary staffers ALL were given immunity - not so they would testify against Hillary - but so they were never asked any questions and had get-out-of-jail-free cards. The Whistleblowers specifically charged that Hunter's laptop was known to be authentic yet was slow-walked by the officials to affect the election.

It is all the same. The Raid equals Russia! Russia! Russia! and the everyday agents know it. I am ashamed of the people here who refuse to see.

TheDrake

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2022, 02:11:24 PM »
He can't just declassify documents for himself. There is an entire apparatus that has to mark all the other paper and electronic copies as declassified. They have to be able to respond to FOIA requests appropriately. All that requires documentation of the declassification. The President also has the ultimate authority to issue a variety of executive orders, but they aren't allowed to be secret and kept only to himself. A President can declassify any document, we all agree. But he has to actually do that.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2022, 02:17:22 PM »
I guess we have King Trump. There is no idea of checks and balances.

By the way Wm where in the Constitution does it give Trump these powers over classified documents?

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2022, 02:32:13 PM »
Quote
No, it would not be required for them to be recorded for that to be true. The PRA acknowledges that the President IS the Declassifier-in-chief.
What do you think that means? Do you honestly believe that a former president has the power to say, at any time, "Oh, yeah, I declassified that in my second week in office, and just didn't bother to tell anybody?" And that somehow the entire mechanism of government that is supposed to actively audit and secure these documents is supposed to know that? I mean, using your logic, someone could be sitting in jail right now because they handled something Trump declassified and just didn't bother mentioning.

Quote
The other point you all seem to want to ignore, is that the DOJ violated its own procedural handbook by making this raid, like they did.
Actually, as far as I can tell, this raid was conducted in exactly the manner I have personally witnessed and have had described. The government repeatedly asked for documents and proof that all documents were turned over. They received evidence that, despite legal assurances, all potentially classified documents had not been turned over, and that there were some being stored in a specific location. They then privately raided that location, verified that there were documents still marked as classified, and quickly secured and transferred those documents. They did this without publicizing the raid or announcing any investigation, as appropriate. What part do you think deviates from standard procedure?

yossarian22c

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2022, 02:45:13 PM »
I've had time to read both the redacted affidavit and the document giving the rationale for the redactions. One thing that's very important to note is that, according to the affidavit, the documents seized were not in fact "properly stored" according to their marked security classifications. While it's possible that Trump did in fact somehow officially declassify all these documents before he took them -- and, again, there would need to be a record of that for that to be true -- it's worth noting that agents of the government are legally obligated to seize and properly secure these files until their classification status can be verified.

No, it would not be required for them to be recorded for that to be true. The PRA acknowledges that the President IS the Declassifier-in-chief. There is no bureaucratic nit-picker who has a higher authority. There is no legislative overlord who gets to say to do it my way, or else. The President IS the DOJ and the ultimate arbiter in the process. Every Constitutional expert I've seen (on almost every network) agrees with this. Name a legitimate source that contradicts that the President has ultimate authority. There aren't any.
...

The president can order any document declassified. Except for a few things specifically classified by acts of congress, no one disputes that fact. But the President has to order them declassified. Not just state that they are. But again, none of the laws sited in the warrant cared if these documents were classified or not. The documents are property of the government that Trump took without authorization (some call that kind of thing stealing). So even if you believe the nonsense spouted on Fox/OAN/InfoWars about Trump having magical declassification powers that require no declassification process then he was still in violation of several laws.

NobleHunter

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2022, 02:48:00 PM »
Note that the position of Trump's administration was that even a verifiable public statement from Trump that material was declassified was insufficient to declassify it.

Wayward Son

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2022, 04:12:09 PM »
Quote
BTW; there is no requirement for any record of de-Classification by the President. If he says anything is declassified, then it is.

If there is no requirement for any record of de-classification by the President, then doesn't it follow that there does not need to be one if the President decides to re-classified said documents?  ???

And, since Trump is no longer President, that means that Biden could have re-classified those classified documents without needing to make a record of it.  ;D

So all we need to do is ask President Biden if he re-classified the document Trump de-classified, and then we can throw Trump's in prison for the rest of his life, right?  ;D

Or, we can acknowledge that in any sane government, you can't have a President secretly wave a wand and say a document is de-classified.  Which would be a better approach. ;)

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2022, 04:20:19 PM »
Wm
So Trump can declassify any document at any time with out telling any one? Even if that is legal, do you think that is a good idea?  It has never been done that way by any other President of either party.

Name one of Trumps Staff that corroborates Trump's statements that he had this standing order? I mean he had to tell someone, right?

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2022, 04:26:49 PM »
Note that the position of Trump's administration was that even a verifiable public statement from Trump that material was declassified was insufficient to declassify it.

No, The President IS the administration. Not a single naysayer who wants to cash in on some perceived celebrity status for a few days.

Tom's listed points about how to handle coming across documents that are marked as classified makes the best sense of those here who just want to see Trump blocked from the 2024 ballot. The problem is, that the regulations and procedures he listed as necessary are only advisable. No audit logging-in is required. Too many otherwise intelligent people get taken in by following policy - rather than law. Since any document may have a "c" typed on it, that is only a cosmetic marker that MAY indicate classified status. When Hillary leaked classified documents, she knew their source and knew they were not declassified. Since she had no power to declassify, those documents were forbidden for her to display to our adversaries. Her actions did name the Iranian scientist who helped our intel, and which got him put to death. Trump knew his stuff was declassified because he is the one who did it. I can see how some President may declassify something that would be dangerous in the wrong hands - however Trump was adhering to the advice of NARA to ensure his papers would be stored safely, under SKIFF procedures and Secret Service security. Nothing left unredacted from the affidavit revealed anything pertinent.

Even if it was, the only redress is the public outcry for an ex-President doing something dangerous - but not illegal. Since everything was under lock and key, there is no authority for a librarian to incite a SWAT-level raid fishing for J6 Committee speculation. So stop already! Trying to rationalize political dirty tricks for no reason except future votes is dangerous, in itself. You know what this is about. No one here who started out reading Orson Scott Card is so dim-witted to ballyhoo this raid as anything but what it really was.

The swamp is terrified of getting outed after the Red Wave secures majorities, and in 2024, the Presidency comes back to the GOP. Does anyone think Fauci ducked for cover, except to get out of the cross-hairs of legal examination to come? There is no pressure on him now - but he can see enough of the future to find a nice, safe retirement village, somewhere, where he can't be returned to the USA for crimes committed. He can live comfortably on the highest retirement allocation in America.

Yossarian22c said: "...President has to order them declassified. Not just state that they are. But again, none of the laws sited in the warrant cared if these documents were classified or not. The documents are property of the government that Trump took without authorization (some call that kind of thing stealing). So even if you believe the nonsense spouted on Fox/OAN/InfoWars about Trump having magical declassification powers that require no declassification process then he was still in violation of several laws."

In that he is dead wrong. There is no higher classification authority than the President, himself. There is no need to follow any set procedure or order. The government at this point does not own the documents. The President did as head of the Executive branch.

BTW; "nonsense spouted on Fox/OAN/InfoWars" is quite a self-defining statement of one's own ignorance. I've yet to see anything cited there that was not first stated by the best Constitutional law experts. Not just by one - but by all. Just who claims otherwise? Bureaucrats? Who is this NARA librarian that got this whole thing started? Is he sacrosanct? Why?

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2022, 04:31:35 PM »
Wm
So Trump can declassify any document at any time with out telling any one? Even if that is legal, do you think that is a good idea?  It has never been done that way by any other President of either party.

Name one of Trumps Staff that corroborates Trump's statements that he had this standing order? I mean he had to tell someone, right?

Again, no, he doesn't - and Presidents have had this authority and used it. I've heard several historians run through a list of such actions, and they explained the underlying law. Please refrain from quoting bureaucratic policy like was done in the stupid and political impeachments that have all been proved wrong. Policy is not law.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2022, 04:36:32 PM »
Again Wm where does this authority come from? Where in the Constitution?  Who are these experts?

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2022, 04:39:38 PM »
Quote
The President IS the administration.
Do you think the administration would agree?

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2022, 04:43:32 PM »
So again, Trump is King not President.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2022, 05:19:24 PM »

Yossarian22c said: "...President has to order them declassified. Not just state that they are. But again, none of the laws sited in the warrant cared if these documents were classified or not. The documents are property of the government that Trump took without authorization (some call that kind of thing stealing). So even if you believe the nonsense spouted on Fox/OAN/InfoWars about Trump having magical declassification powers that require no declassification process then he was still in violation of several laws."

In that he is dead wrong. There is no higher classification authority than the President, himself. There is no need to follow any set procedure or order. The government at this point does not own the documents. The President did as head of the Executive branch.
...

Wow, your view on executive authority is expansive. Can Biden wave the magic classification wand and reclassify everything just how it was before Trump "declassified" it?

Most legal experts disagree that declassification doesn't require a procedure because if the documents are declassified they are subject to FOIA requests. You can't secretly declassify stuff then claim it as your own. The President works for the people and the government. The President is not "the government" the individual doesn't own the documents. You can say the government and the office of the President controls the files, but not the man. Just like Trump couldn't sign the deed to the white house over to himself, he can't just give himself government property because he says so. And the property was the governments even if you buy this bogus magic wand declassification that Trump did with no record, process, or accountability.

TheDrake

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2022, 07:12:47 PM »
So in other words, all Obama had to do was say he declassified all the documents on Hillary's server? That would have worked?

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2022, 07:52:34 AM »
Ultimately the issue is not classified of not. The issue is these were original Government documents that Trump had no right to posses.  And that is what the warrant was based on.

Wm, what ruling/law/reason gives Trump the right to have Gov documents in his possession after he has left office with out going through the proper procedure (just like every President before him did)? Why does he keep claiming they are "his"?

Even if he did declassify them it does not allow him to keep them.

And you have not answered where he gets this authority to declassify? Where in the Constitution is that power listed?

TheDrake

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2022, 08:35:30 AM »
So far the most suspicious thing I've heard is this.

Quote
Fourteen of the 15 boxes recovered from former President Donald Trump’s Florida estate early this year contained classified documents, many of them top secret, mixed in with miscellaneous newspapers, magazines and personal correspondence.

That’s according to an FBI affidavit released Friday explaining the justification for this month’s search of the property.

The FBI is asserting that Trump not only had newspapers and magazines, but wanted to KEEP them? That doesn't seem realistic to me, that he reads newspapers.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2022, 08:40:23 AM »
He just wanted to the pictures of him that were in them. He didn't read any of them.

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2022, 09:48:06 AM »
He just wanted to the pictures of him that were in them. He didn't read any of them.

Such a biased and ignorant remark. Trump reads several newspapers every morning - and has done so forever. He only sleeps a few hours , and outworks everyone on his staff. We won't compare him to Biden - who yesterday said, "'I've declassified everything in the world. I'm president. I can do it all. C'mon!" Biden reacts to Trump 'declassifying' top secret documents, says "I don't even want to know." Do not add elder abuse to your list of scamming.

The only reason for the raid was trying to fish for anything the J6 Committee can use to warrant an indictment. According to the Affidavit, the ostensible reason for the raid that leaked, said it was to protect nuclear documents. Nothing in the affidavit suggested that. All presidents keep papers that they can use to refresh their memories as they write books, and prepare Presidential Library materials, which is why the NARA allows all Presidents to keep what papers they want after leaving office. The warrant was over-broad and listed nothing with specificity. Nothing in the warrant suggested taking passports and personal letters and searching through Melania's underwear. Isn't it amazing that the Magistrate recused himself earlier on a Trump-related case, but didn't for this? Where is the MSM?

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2022, 10:21:52 AM »
Quote
According to the Affidavit, the ostensible reason for the raid that leaked, said it was to protect nuclear documents. Nothing in the affidavit suggested that.
I would be very interested to see you list the reasons given for the raid in the affidavit.

TheDrake

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2022, 10:59:10 AM »
The number one thing I've seen discussed prior to, and after the affidavit release is the expose of intelligence gathering methods. Sources of human intelligence, satellite, and electronic intercepts. Yes, there was a WaPo story about nuclear secrets being amongst the documents.

Would it even matter to you, wm, if there were nuclear secrets? Or would you just say that he declassified them, and that anyway they were locked in a storage closet at a secure golf resort? And by the way, Obama had mountains of nuclear secrets, and so did Hunter Biden's laptop?

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2022, 11:44:09 AM »
Wm I know you don't have a sense of humor but that was sarcasm.

And no response to the fact that Trump had documents, classified or not, that did not belong to him. The documents belong to the Government, not to Trump.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2022, 12:12:16 PM »
I think this is a fairly good review of the way things stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1X31K-0bYA&t=1288s

TheDrake

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2022, 01:16:37 PM »
By the way, here's a testimonial.

Quote
Donald Trump's former attorney Alan Dershowitz said Friday that the Department of Justice has enough evidence to indict the former president but doesn't expect it to happen.

Quote
Drawing contrast with many conservatives, including Trump, Dershowitz also defended Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart's approval of the search warrant that led to the raid in August, arguing that "every judge would have made the same ruling."

It will be really amusing to see Trump & Friends try to paint Dershowitz as a never-Trumper when he defended him time and again and even against impeachment.

Ah, I got it. He's not a never-Trumper, he just buckled in the face of withering condemnation by the libs.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2022, 01:25:40 PM »
He has obviously been bought off by the Soros/Gates cabal.

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2022, 10:35:12 PM »
Wm I know you don't have a sense of humor but that was sarcasm.

And no response to the fact that Trump had documents, classified or not, that did not belong to him. The documents belong to the Government, not to Trump.

No, as Rush Limbaugh often said, humor must be based on fact. Spurious innuendo against innocents is not humor. The response was made that the NARA allows past Presidents to store papers for future use. Generally, to refresh their memories and keep important info available.

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2022, 10:36:46 PM »
...It will be really amusing to see Trump & Friends try to paint Dershowitz as a never-Trumper when he defended him time and again and even against impeachment.

Ah, I got it. He's not a never-Trumper, he just buckled in the face of withering condemnation by the libs.

No... He's a confirmed Democrat who rarely sides with the GOP. When he does, it is noteworthy.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2022, 08:42:49 AM »
They allowed past President to to do that once the papers were in the NARA possession and the past President made a request for the documents. They did not just take them. And when they were done they gave them back, correct? Trump denied he had them, claimed they were planted, claimed Executive Privilege which he is not allowed to due since he is not the Executive any more, claims he would have sent them back if just asked, but had been asked several times.

You mentioned the case of Sandy Burger who tried to smuggle documents out of NARA. How is this any different. These document do not belong to Trump and he had them with out permission.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2022, 08:48:10 AM »
Again, where does Trump get the power to declassify the documents? You say he has ultimate power to declassify. Where does it say that in the Constitution?

jc44

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2022, 09:36:20 AM »
Again, where does Trump get the power to declassify the documents? You say he has ultimate power to declassify. Where does it say that in the Constitution?
Nothing I've seen so far has suggested that Trump, whilst president, didn't have the power to declassify documents. I think we have to give him that. Whether or not that power came with requirements that he follow procedure to do so is a lot more murky. I've certainly seen no evidence that he told anyone that had had declassified any of the documents in question. He equally certainly can't do so retrospectively.
If they are now, in fact, declassified then all of them should immediately be published in full to show everyone just how innocuous they are.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2022, 09:44:10 AM »
I agree that Trump has the power to declassify. But Wm has claimed that he has the ultimate power and that it can not be questioned or limited. That the President does not have to follow any of the rules in place to show that the documents have been declassified.

My question is where does this power come from?  If it is not the Constitution then it was given by some method. And that method can be used to limit that power, such as requiring the President to follow certain guidelines for the process to happen.

Additionally, I question the judgement of any President who has a standing order, of which there is no record, so it really is not a standing order, that any document taken out of the Oval Office is automatically declassified. That seems a very cavalier attitude to the most sensitive information this country has, as well as a casual disregard for the human assets that could easily be compromised by this Standing Order.

That is one of my major issues with this thought that Trump issued this Standing Order. Wm will not question the reasons behind it (if it exists).

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2022, 09:54:31 AM »
And the reasons behind the warrant have nothing to do with classification.

It has to do with Trump possessing Gov documents that he is not allowed to have.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2022, 10:59:14 AM »
Well, to be fair, at least one of the reasons behind the warrant is classification. The affidavit listed several reasons why a warrant was being sought, and the potential that classified secrets were being improperly stored was one of them.

Wayward Son

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2022, 12:44:46 PM »
You might as well give-up, William.  The Deep State's reach is farther than anyone imagined, and there is no way they can be stopped anymore.

Karl Rove blasted Trump on Fox News.

Quote
"The Presidential Records Act is clear," said Rove. "A president does not have the right to leave the White House and pick and choose what documents he wants to take with them. He can ask for copies, but those are the property of the American people." ...

"My sense is they were asking for a year and a half, and why he was holding on to these materials when he had no legal authority to do so under the PRA is beyond me!"

If they have gotten to Karl Rove, no one is immune, even you.  Might as well accept that they've won and go on from there.  It's over, St. Donald is going down, and soon even you will be singing the song (once the payments start coming in, I suppose). :)