Author Topic: The Trump Papers  (Read 3325 times)

Grant

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #150 on: September 19, 2022, 12:43:33 PM »
But on the other hand if a lawyer really wants to work pro-bone for the good of Trump then they could just do so -

Frankly, I would be very worried about any attorney who agreed to work for The Lord Declassifier pro-bone. 

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #151 on: September 20, 2022, 08:54:22 AM »
So the Trump team does not want to agree to the request/demands of the Special Master they asked for.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-legal-team-trying-avoid-075732740.html

How long before Trump starts bad mouthing his chosen Special Master, who has the gall to act like an independent reviewer? Friday?

Wayward Son

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #152 on: September 20, 2022, 10:26:01 AM »
Former prosecutor Andrew Weissmann has a theory about why they don't want to specifically declare which documents Trump declassified.  Basically, it is because Trump can lie as much as he like to the public and specifically his followers, but if he lies to the courts, he'd be in legal jeopardy.  Not to mention his lawyers.  ;D

NobleHunter

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #153 on: September 20, 2022, 11:09:10 AM »
Twitter has also suggested that any such statement would be admitting guilt, though I don't remember the exact logic.

DJQuag

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #154 on: September 20, 2022, 01:42:31 PM »
The Trump team goes thus.

Is there a way to throw up dust? Delay things? Let's do that. It'll last till the R's take back the house.

TheDrake

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #155 on: September 20, 2022, 03:07:40 PM »
Quote
Specifically, the legal team objected to what it said was Dearie’s request that it “disclose specific information regarding declassification to the Court and to the Government.”

How long before they call the special master that they named a biased never trumper?

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #156 on: September 20, 2022, 06:22:42 PM »
Former prosecutor Andrew Weissmann has a theory about why they don't want to specifically declare which documents Trump declassified.  Basically, it is because Trump can lie as much as he like to the public and specifically his followers, but if he lies to the courts, he'd be in legal jeopardy.  Not to mention his lawyers.  ;D

You are kidding, right? Weissmann? The "pit-bull dis-informist from the Meuller investigation? I though he had been disbarred. Just wishful thinking, I guess.

Wayward Son

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #157 on: September 20, 2022, 06:59:40 PM »
Well, looks like we'll find out real soon.  Judge Dearie is calling Trump's bluff.

Quote
The special master, Raymond J. Dearie, said Tuesday that if Trump’s lawyers don't officially counter whether the documents the former president took are classified, then Dearie will side with the DOJ.

“As far as I'm concerned, that's the end of it,” he said.

Dearie, a semi-retired federal judge in Brooklyn who’s playing the role of temporary referee, wants to speed up the process and get federal agents back on track. And while Trump has been alleging on social media that he already declassified the records he swiped from the White House, Dearie is demanding that Trump put up or shut up. The senior judge is asking that Trump’s team assert—in sworn affidavits where lies could mean jail time—whether or not Trump actually declassified them. ...

When Trump lawyer James M. Trusty argued his team “shouldn't be in a position where we have to disclose… declassification defenses,” Dearie wasn’t having any of it.

“You can't have your cake and eat it,” Dearie shot back.
  ;D

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #158 on: September 20, 2022, 07:02:17 PM »
Never Trumper name calling in 3-2-1.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #159 on: September 22, 2022, 08:13:09 AM »
Trump thinks he can declassify documents just by thinking it.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-claims-presidents-declassify-documents-021256427.html

Just by thinking about it.  That sounds delusional. Or someone who wants to be King. The fact he was told that was not true does not phase him.

Again, he has the power to declassify, but there is a process after that decision that has to be followed, whether he likes it or not.

And again the issue is not really declassification. It is possession of Gov documents. They are not his documents.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 08:15:15 AM by msquared »

Wayward Son

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #160 on: September 22, 2022, 10:57:15 AM »
The three-judge appeals panel isn't buying any of it, either.

Quote
For our part, we cannot discern why Plaintiff would have an individual interest in or need for any of the one-hundred documents with classification markings. Plaintiff has not even attempted to show that he has a need to know the information contained in the classified documents. Nor has he established that the current administration has waived that requirement for these documents. And even if he had, that, in and of itself, would not explain why Plaintiff has an individual interest in the classified documents.

Plaintiff suggests that he may have declassified these documents when he was President. But the record contains no evidence that any of these records were declassified. And before the special master, Plaintiff resisted providing any evidence that he had declassified any of these documents.
(Emphasis mine.)

Denies just about everything Trump claims.  And this is with two of three justices being appointed by Trump.  One could only imagine what it would have said if none of them had been Trump appointees.  ;)

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #161 on: September 22, 2022, 10:59:11 AM »
Such over reach  by the court. Trump is President. He does not have to explain anything to them.  He does not have to explain why he needed them.

Wayward Son

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #162 on: September 22, 2022, 04:41:25 PM »
Dearie puts on more pressure.

Quote
You are here: Home / Trump Legacy / Special Master Orders Trump Lawyers to Back Up Claims
Special Master Orders Trump Lawyers to Back Up Claims
September 22, 2022 at 4:20 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard Leave a Comment

“The Mar-a-Lago special master on Thursday ordered Donald Trump’s lawyers to state in a court filing whether they believe FBI agents lied about documents seized from the former president’s Florida residence in a court-authorized search last month, or claimed to have taken items that were not actually in Trump’s possession,” the Washington Post reports.

“Trump has said on social media and in television interviews that the FBI planted items and described as classified documents that he had declassified when they searched his Mar-A-Lago residence and private club on Aug. 8. His lawyers have not asserted that in court, however, instead saying they have not reviewed the seized materials and are unable to confirm whether the government’s inventory list is accurate.”

“Dearie’s order marks the first time that a courts has demanded that Trump’s lawyers back up his claims.”

How much do you want to bet that Trump's lawyers won't state those things in court?  ;D

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #163 on: September 22, 2022, 07:38:10 PM »
So nothing from the Trump supporters about this? 

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #164 on: September 24, 2022, 05:37:20 PM »
So nothing from the Trump supporters about this?

What's to be said about it? The President has the total control of classification. Trump said he declassified all the papers he wanted to have control over, and ordered his staff to do any paperwork to document and declassify the papers going to his storage at Mar-A-Laga to back that order. This was done before Biden was sworn in. Done deal.

NobleHunter

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #165 on: September 24, 2022, 06:31:55 PM »
Again, any contemporaneous evidence of that?

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #166 on: September 24, 2022, 07:12:40 PM »
This is the first time Wm has said that Trump ordered staff to do any paper work.  Trump has been out of office coming up on 2 years now and none of the documents that they claim were declassified show up in any government site as declassified, as shown by the FOIA requests for them.

His lawyers have not claimed in legal filings the Trump declassified any documents, just that he could have. If Trump did as you say, why did they not claim that in the legal filings? Who among his staff was supposed to do this?  Trump should know who that was and list that person in the legal filings.

Instead we get most of the people who are responsible for these actions saying it never happened. His Chief of Staffs  (at least 3 of them) all say it never happened. His own White House council say it did not happen.

The Special Master is asking Trump to put up or shut up in a legal sense. And so far Trump has given nothing.

My guess it is because he has nothing. He got caught red handed with his hand in the cookie jar.

And again you ignore my question. What do you think about Trump saying he could declassify with just thinking about it?  No notification to anyone about what he did?

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #167 on: September 27, 2022, 11:07:26 AM »
This is the first time Wm has said that Trump ordered staff to do any paper work.  Trump has been out of office coming up on 2 years now and none of the documents that they claim were declassified show up in any government site as declassified, as shown by the FOIA requests for them.

His lawyers have not claimed in legal filings the Trump declassified any documents, just that he could have. If Trump did as you say, why did they not claim that in the legal filings? Who among his staff was supposed to do this?  Trump should know who that was and list that person in the legal filings.

Instead we get most of the people who are responsible for these actions saying it never happened. His Chief of Staffs  (at least 3 of them) all say it never happened. His own White House council say it did not happen.

The Special Master is asking Trump to put up or shut up in a legal sense. And so far Trump has given nothing.

My guess it is because he has nothing. He got caught red handed with his hand in the cookie jar.

And again you ignore my question. What do you think about Trump saying he could declassify with just thinking about it?  No notification to anyone about what he did?

What about "total control of the classification program" confuses you so? There is zero bureaucracy invested with overweening authority. The President is the sole authority and tells them what they can or can't do.

The President is in the same boat as Lawrence of Arabia when he spoke to Auda:
Quote
T.E. Lawrence: My friends, we have been foolish. Auda will not come to Aqaba. Not for money...
Auda abu Tayi: No.
T.E. Lawrence: ...for Feisal...
Auda abu Tayi: No!
T.E. Lawrence: ...nor to drive away the Turks. He will come... because it is his pleasure.
[pause]
Auda abu Tayi: Thy mother mated with a scorpion.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #168 on: September 27, 2022, 11:13:07 AM »
I have said he can declassify anything he wants. However, you, and he, has not shown that there is not a process that needs to be followed to show that they have been declassified.  Every thing I see shows that they were not.

You said above that Trump "ordered his staff to do any paperwork to document and declassify the papers going to his storage at Mar-A-Laga to back that order. "  Who on his staff did he order? Have any of these people said they where ordered to do the paperwork to document and declassify the documents?

The answer so far is no.

And again, you have not responded to my question about him being able to do it just by thinking about it.  How does that jibe with your claim "ordered his staff to do any paperwork to document and declassify the papers going to his storage at Mar-A-Laga to back that order." 

Do you accept that doing something, just by thinking about it, is not good process, especially when it has never been a claimed power by any other President, ever?

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #169 on: September 27, 2022, 11:14:05 AM »
This is the first time Wm has said that Trump ordered staff to do any paper work...

That is only because it is hard to find info from Trump's side of the issue in our complicit media. It's out there. I came across it weeks ago. Good luck finding it... But isn't it good to know Trump did cover all his bases? He asked his Chief of Staff to do the necessary paperwork for all documents he was storing at Mar-A-Lago for his future use.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 11:16:21 AM by wmLambert »

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #170 on: September 27, 2022, 11:17:08 AM »
Trump has not said that in any of the interviews he has given.  He has not said that in any of the legal filings he has filed.  Maybe he said that and realized it was a lie that could be checked and stopped saying it.

Ultimate authority does not give you leave to not follow the rules.  It gives him authority to start the processs.

So far all of the legal decisions have favored my reading of this and not yours  or Trumps.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #171 on: September 27, 2022, 11:17:49 AM »
Let's do a thought experiment, William.

1) The president decides to declassify a Top Secret document, but changes nothing else.
2) After being told by the president that the document has been totally declassified, an aide takes that document, still marked as classified, home.
3) Two years later, after the president has left office, that aide sells the contents of that document to a Chinese tech firm for $1.2 million.
4) A month later, that document is discovered in the aide's personal office by an employee (who reports it up the chain).
5) The aide is arrested and imprisoned. At trial, the aide insists that the president declassified the document while president.
6) The former president, despite being asked by the aide's lawyers, refuses to testify that he did so.

Where is the culpability here?

Wayward Son

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #172 on: September 27, 2022, 12:10:47 PM »
And I still say that if the President can declassify a document by just saying so, or even thinking so, then he should be able to re-classify a document by the same methods.

So, has anyone asked President Biden if any of ex-President Trump's documents are classified, and were always classified?  And if he says "yes," isn't that the end of the story?  ;D

Or does logic have nothing to do with this line of "reasoning?"  ;)

yossarian22c

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #173 on: September 27, 2022, 02:20:33 PM »
This is the first time Wm has said that Trump ordered staff to do any paper work...

That is only because it is hard to find info from Trump's side of the issue in our complicit media. It's out there. I came across it weeks ago. Good luck finding it... But isn't it good to know Trump did cover all his bases? He asked his Chief of Staff to do the necessary paperwork for all documents he was storing at Mar-A-Lago for his future use.

What future use? They aren't his papers classified or not classified.

Why haven't his lawyers presented this evidence to the special master when he asked which papers have been declassified? They have specifically avoided making legal claims of declassification.

rightleft22

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #174 on: September 27, 2022, 03:04:36 PM »
Quote
What about "total control of the classification program" confuses you so? There is zero bureaucracy invested with overweening authority. The President is the sole authority and tells them what they can or can't do.

No checks no balances the President in the sole authority!. That is quilt the statement and slippery slope.
Be careful what you wish for, history starts now..


msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #175 on: September 29, 2022, 07:50:22 AM »
Under oat, Trumps lawyers will not verify the FBI list of things taken.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-objects-verifying-list-property-021408918.html

This is their Special Master. This would take the "FBI planted it" off the table and they will not do it.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #176 on: September 29, 2022, 09:16:27 AM »
This has the added "benefit" of further potential delay.
No lawsuit against any Republican politician (or, in Trump's case, a presumptive politician) is going to be allowed to proceed at anything but a snail's pace until after November.