The Trump Papers

[msquared]

Trump goes off the deep end about past Presidents and their papers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-said-former-president-george-024143166.html

Claims Obama took 33 million pages and stored them in a furniture store. Of course that is a lie and the NARA has shown it is a lie.

Claims Bush I took millions of pages and stored them in a old Chinese restaurant mixed with a bowling alley. Asks why Bush is not being prosecuted (Bush died 4 years ago).

He continues to lie about everything in public and when asked to back it up in court he's got nothing.

Please, go ahead and defend these statements.

[msquared]

Well Trump's lawyers are each saying "the other guy lied" about having turned over all of the documents earlier this year.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-lawyers-turning-other-over-190235199.html

Not that Trump cares.  I am fairly sure he thinks lawyers jobs are to lie for him and take the bullet.

[msquared]

NARA has replied to Trumps claim about both Bush Presidents followed the rules on their documents.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/national-archives-calls-trump-lying-162721132.html

See any pattern here?  Trump claims others were worse than him, but the facts say a completely different story.

And another example of Trump lying. But we know things like character do not matter to the MAGA crowd.

[wmLambert]

NARA has replied to Trumps claim about both Bush Presidents followed the rules on their documents.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/national-archives-calls-trump-lying-162721132.html

See any pattern here?  Trump claims others were worse than him, but the facts say a completely different story.

And another example of Trump lying. But we know things like character do not matter to the MAGA crowd.

You should read your own Yahoo links. Obama dd take those 30 million documents to Chicago. The pristine point the article glossed over, was who decided those documents were unclassified. Same thing with the others. What the National Archives do with their own Classified documents is a separate issue, neh? BTW, George W. Bush did not die in 2017 - that was his father.

How can yos post such nonsense and call Trump the liar when Biden is the proven liar?

[msquared]

He did not take them. They were sent, after the proper procedures were followed and they were stored in a secure government facility.

What does this have to do with Biden? This is Trump lying again. 

Again, if Trump had gone through the process of requesting his documents, he would not be in any trouble. But he just took then, then denied he had them, and then stonewalled when it was shown he had them.

He thinks they are "HIS" documents. He is still saying that in public. They are not his documents. The belong to the Government.

[jc44]

BTW, George W. Bush did not die in 2017 - that was his father.

True but it was George W. Bush's father George H.W. Bush that Trump was talking about and, as you say, he is the one that is dead.

[Wayward Son]

The pristine point the article glossed over, was who decided those documents were unclassified. Same thing with the others. What the National Archives do with their own Classified documents is a separate issue, neh?

Wait, wait, wait.  Are you saying that different copies of the same document can have different classification statuses?  That one copy (that Donald J. Trump has) can be completely declassified, and you could post it on a telephone pole if you want, but another (held by the National Archives, for instance) could land you in jail for life if you took it out of the special room, even by accident? 

If you are, you really, really need to read up on our classification system and especially the purpose of the system.  Because if that is what you are saying, you are spouting complete and utter nonsense. 

[wmLambert]

The pristine point the article glossed over, was who decided those documents were unclassified. Same thing with the others. What the National Archives do with their own Classified documents is a separate issue, neh?

Wait, wait, wait.  Are you saying that different copies of the same document can have different classification statuses?  That one copy (that Donald J. Trump has) can be completely declassified, and you could post it on a telephone pole if you want, but another (held by the National Archives, for instance) could land you in jail for life if you took it out of the special room, even by accident? 

If you are, you really, really need to read up on our classification system and especially the purpose of the system.  Because if that is what you are saying, you are spouting complete and utter nonsense. 

That is the reason Trump instructed his staff to take care of the classification process. As President, he has full authority to declassify documents. The Archives people should be apprised that documents have been declassified.

[Tom]

I'm pretty sure everyone is waiting with bated breath for Trump's people to officially appraise the nation of which documents, if any, were declassified while he was in office.

[msquared]

Wm

Again, who on his staff did he tell to do it? No one has come forward. He has not claimed this in any legal filing.

And again, this is not about classification. This is about possession of documents that belong to the Federal Government, not Trump. They are not his documents and he hid the fact that he had them from the rightful owner. He stole them. Plain and simple.

[msquared]

USSC says no to Trump on his stolen papers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/supreme-court-denies-trump-request-190601430.html

[msquared]

Trump getting  Cannon as his judge is looking fishy.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/incredible-mystery-trump-got-judge-084331847.html

[TheDrake]

Trump getting  Cannon as his judge is looking fishy.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/incredible-mystery-trump-got-judge-084331847.html

tl;dr It's the Daily Beast again. And the article is citing an "Incredible Mystery". Of course, the content of the article claims the opposite of a mystery, that it was obvious.

If you dig down you get this admission finally.

But the system still appears random. The previous Friday in West Palm Beach, Cannon got the first lawsuit of the day. Judge Donald M. Middlebrooks got the next three. Cannon got the last one.

So it is all innuendo, "maybe a Trump lawyer had influence with a clerk, hmmmmmmm? Hmmmmm?!!" "Were they unable to file electronically, or not? hnmmm? hmmm? HMMMMMM!"

Come back with an article that draws a link between a Trump lawyer and a clerk. Or any other tangible evidence of anything shady. Even if they were judge shopping, which can and does happen, just like trying to steer a case into a certain venue, I don't think there's anything illegal about it.

[msquared]

Trump knew the papers were classified and he showed them to people anyway.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-acknowledged-interview-letters-kim-120436877.html

[msquared]

Trump claims that clemency and pardon requests are his personal property.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-claims-clemency-requests-personal-234451680.html

Lets see. Who can grant pardons? The President, not Donald Trump personally.  So how does that make it his personal property?

[msquared]

Well Kash Patel, Trump aide, who claimed Trump declassified documents will not say so under oath.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/aide-once-claimed-trump-former-022452710.html?.tsrc=daily_mail&uh_test=1_11

Let's see. Patel says he saw Trump declassify documents. Trump them pushes Patel's "Childrens" Book about the Great Trump to help push sales.

Nothing suspicious there.

Again and again Trump loyalist will not testify under oath. They are eager enough to spread their stories (lies) to the public but when it comes time to put up or shut up, nothing but silence.  Plenty of former Trump supporters have testified under oath, but those are the ones who have come to realize what a disaster Trump is and that they are saving themselves from what comes at the end of this.

[NobleHunter]

I suspect part of the reticence to testify on this matter that stealing government documents is illegal even if they were declassified. Perhaps he couldn't find a  way to say "yeah, Trump totally declassified them" without being at risk of admitting he took them.

[rightleft22]

I suspect part of the reticence to testify on this matter that stealing government documents is illegal even if they were declassified. Perhaps he couldn't find a  way to say "yeah, Trump totally declassified them" without being at risk of admitting he took them.

Is the Fact that he took them in question?

[NobleHunter]

I don't know if it's been proven that Patel took documents or not but even if it was, he still shouldn't incriminate himself.

[Wayward Son]

Is the Fact that he took them in question?

Mark my words:  it will be.  It will be. 

[LetterRip]

Is the Fact that he took them in question?

Mark my words:  it will be.  It will be. 

Trump has already claimed they were planted by the FBI.

[msquared]

Has he done so in court pleadings?  Given any evidence of evidence planting?  What he says in public is of no matter. He lies to the public all the time. In court his lawyers are usually much more careful.

[yossarian22c]

Has he done so in court pleadings?  Given any evidence of evidence planting?  What he says in public is of no matter. He lies to the public all the time. In court his lawyers are usually much more careful.

In court they have started being slightly more careful. As one of his lawyers is probably soon going to be a codefendant in an obstruction of justice case in certifying that all the papers had been returned. Whoops. They have reigned themselves in from that point. Being Trump's lawyer tends to end up with people getting disbarred and/or going to prison.

[msquared]

Because he lies to his lawyers.

[msquared]

Trump has dropped his claim of Attorney-Client privilege on 9 of the documents.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-drops-attorney-client-claims-191234931.html

[msquared]

Well they gave Kash Patel limited immunity for his testimony about the documents.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/top-trump-adviser-granted-immunity-235645860.html

[msquared]

Well Trump might have taken gifts with him as well as papers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/investigators-looking-dozens-expensive-gifts-150232123.html

[msquared]

It is a half hour long but a fairly good comparison between Hillary and Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pDEPDxMbh4

[msquared]

So Trump's team is claiming that some of the documents are personal documents.

However, personal documents can still be seized for investigations.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/justice-department-accuses-trump-shell-162427112.html

[msquared]

Garland is naming Special Council for the documents probe and the Jan 6 probe.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/garland-names-special-counsel-lead-184149149.html

Not sure what this means other than Trump will spin it what ever way he wants.

[yossarian22c]

Garland is naming Special Council for the documents probe and the Jan 6 probe.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/garland-names-special-counsel-lead-184149149.html

Not sure what this means other than Trump will spin it what ever way he wants.

Probably means charges are coming. Garland is appointing special counsel's to give them some insulation from the upcoming House of Investigations.

[msquared]

Ok it is Jack Smith. 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/garland-names-special-counsel-lead-184149149.html

[msquared]

It took Triump about an hour to call the Special Counsel names.

“I have never heard of such a thing. They found nothing. I announce and then they appoint a special prosecutor,” he said Friday. “They found nothing, and now they take some guy who hates Trump. This is a disgrace and only happening because I am leading in every poll in both parties.”

So many things wrong in that statment.

[msquared]

Many non partisan legal groups think there is more than enough evidence to charge Trump in both the GA fake electors case and the documents case.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/experts-evidence-two-probes-compels-110000959.html

[yossarian22c]

Many non partisan legal groups think there is more than enough evidence to charge Trump in both the GA fake electors case and the documents case.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/experts-evidence-two-probes-compels-110000959.html

The documents case is a slam dunk. The signed statement saying everything was returned after the subpoena shows intent to hide what the FBI later found with the search warrant. The Georgia cases (multiple) and Ron Johnson fake electors plot are more vague. I'm sure Trump has his mafia like vagueness in approving those. It will be another case of the people around him going to jail but not Trump. Stealing and withholding the classified documents is so simple to prosecute based on all the steps the government went through to get them back before resorting in a search warrant. Fake electors scheme is more serious but based on the number of moving parts and people involved I'm sure Trump was careful to have some type of distance or deniability. Maybe he only gave a wink and a nod to those involved to go forward with it. I doubt he ever put anything in writing asking for any of it. 

The Georgia case with a higher chance of success is the interference/intimidation of voting officials based on his call with the Georgia SoS.

[msquared]

Belongs in this thread as well.

Special Master decision over turned.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/appeals-court-overturns-special-master-225940461.html

Best line in the decision.

"The law is clear," the three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled. "We cannot write a rule that allows any subject of a search warrant to block government investigations after the execution of the warrant. Nor can we write a rule that allows only former presidents to do so."

[msquared]

Trump will of course appeal to the USSC, but my guess is that they will refuse to hear the case. As they should. This was a delaying tactic from the start put before a Trump judge who never should have been involved in the first place.

[msquared]

So when the Trump lawyers were asked to certify that all gov. documents had been returned, they hired an outside firm to search Trump's homes and such. And the group found some more documents in a storage facilty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/report-classified-items-found-trump-193227681.html

I wonder why the lawyers hired an outside group?  Maybe they did not trust their client to tell them the truth?

[NobleHunter]

I'm not sure which would be worse: Trump knew he had these documents and was trying to avoid turning them over or if he or his people had actually lost track of them and didn't know they were there until they searched the storage unit.

[msquared]

From what I have read the second case looks to be much more likely.

[rightleft22]

Both can be true

[msquared]

Yeah. Like at Easter when you hide eggs and you hide one so good that you forget where you hid it. Until it goes bad.

[msquared]

DOJ asks for a Contempt order for Trumps legal team since more documents were found after they said they were all turned over.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/doj-asks-federal-judge-hold-223726149.html

[Wayward Son]

They should now do what they should have done when they first found him with classified documents:

Throw Trump in jail for a couple of months and search every single property Trump has until they confiscate every single classified document he has.

He can argue in court whether he had them legally or not. 

[msquared]

Well Trump decided not to appeal the ending of the Special Master. So I guess Cannon has done her job of pushing off the investigation until after the mid terms.

I wonder if Trump wins in 2024 if he is going to select Cannon for the USSC as a reward?

[msquared]

Well it took 3 months but Trump judge Cannon finally admitted that she did not have jurisdiction over the case, being forced to dismiss the case by a higher court.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-tosses-trump-battle-against-150722136.html

[msquared]

So some possibly classified documents were found in an old Biden office.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/doj-reviewing-potentially-classified-docs-225623683.html

Let see how fast the RINO MAGA Trumpist call for Biden to be impeached. I wonder if Obama will say he declassifed them?

Can the MAGA people see the main difference between what happend here and at Mar-A-Lago?

[TheDrake]

No, they can see A difference but not THE difference that rational people can see. Biden should be jailed, and Trump should be exonerated. And if that doesn't make sense to you, then you're just stupid, because it's so obvious.

They will also explain that widespread media reporting on Biden's documents is not evidence that they are not a puppet of the Democratic party. And if that doesn't make sense to you, you are being manipulated by propaganda.

[Seriati]

Or maybe that the raid on Trump's house is really without precedent in modern US history and never should have happened.  Or maybe that a raid on any former President's private offices would be likely to turn up some documents in their files that are marked classified.

Or how about that Trump as president had the authority to declassify any of the documents in his possession and that Biden as vice president did not.

One thing is certain, there is no principled explanation for the raid on Trump, and since you all relied on technicality as a non-sensical basis and that technicality is exactly what just got dramatically undermined, there is no question that you will all fall all over yourself explaining why this is perfectly okay and completely different from the world ending tragedy that was corrected by the Trump raid.  That executing an unConstitutional general warrant on Trump and taking files that had nothing to do with subpeona - including legally privileged documents was "completely okay" but it would be "insane" to enforce the same rule on Democrats.

[msquared]

It was unprecendented due to the fact that what Trump did was unprecendented.

He has shown no evidence that he declassified the items. He did not say he had them, in fact he said he did not have them.

When Biden's team found the documents they immedialty contacted the correct authorities and turned them over.