Author Topic: The Trump Papers  (Read 12240 times)

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #250 on: January 10, 2023, 11:13:03 AM »
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maybe that the raid on Trump's house is really without precedent in modern US history and never should have happened
Are you suggesting that an array of highly classified documents should have remained unsecured in Trump's possession after he left office?

Ouija Nightmare

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #251 on: January 10, 2023, 11:31:52 AM »
So some possibly classified documents were found in an old Biden office.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/doj-reviewing-potentially-classified-docs-225623683.html

Let see how fast the RINO MAGA Trumpist call for Biden to be impeached. I wonder if Obama will say he declassifed them?

Can the MAGA people see the main difference between what happend here and at Mar-A-Lago?

The issue that strikes me is how these could have been missing for four years of a hostile presidency and not detected.

The National Archive spent a great deal of time and energy trying to recover records from the Trump club finally having to resort of force of law and arms to retrieve them. These just kind of accidentally turned up. How the hell many of these types of security holes are wandering the nation being used as coffee coasters right now?

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #252 on: January 10, 2023, 11:49:50 AM »
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The National Archive spent a great deal of time and energy trying to recover records from the Trump club finally having to resort of force of law and arms to retrieve them.
This is because the National Archive a) knew about the documents, because Trump bragged about them and informants had called them for legal advice about them; and b) had reason to believe they were being improperly stored. It's not particularly uncommon for the odd classified document to turn up in the wrong place, especially in the hands of "executives;" this is why everyone who has to work with national secrets gets a LOT of training on how to respond to them.

From what I understand -- and keep in mind that this is based purely on the reporting I've seen -- the documents (all from Biden's time as vice president under Obama) were found mixed with unclassified papers in secured storage as items in storage were being transferred to archives. The archivists immediately contacted Biden's lawyers, who then immediately contacted the DOJ and turned the files over.

While there was obviously a breakdown in the process that allowed the docs to get mixed up in the first place -- which happens pretty often when administrations change over and desks get emptied -- the handling of that initial mistake here was purely by the book. The contrast here with the Trump scenario is that a) Trump didn't turn over the docs when he was first told of their existence in his keeping; b) Trump lied about the presence of the docs when asked about them; c) Trump insisted that he didn't need to turn over the docs; and d) the sheer quantity and sensitivity of the documents involved was (as far as anyone knows) historically atypical.  (In particular, as far as I know, none of the documents found among Biden's papers were sufficiently classified to require an individual audit trail, whereas several of Trump's papers were supposed to be audited and were not.)

Lloyd Perna

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #253 on: January 10, 2023, 11:53:08 AM »
Yeah we know,  It's (D)ifferent

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #254 on: January 10, 2023, 12:04:53 PM »
I'm not sure how you got to "it's okay because he's a Democrat" from "it's okay because there's a legal process that needs to be followed and which was in this case followed to the letter." Are you suggesting that Republican presidents are simply unable to obey basic laws?

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #255 on: January 10, 2023, 12:05:20 PM »
Especially when it is different. Apples and oranges.

Do you see anyone saying there should not be an investigation into what happened? Please go investigate.  My guess is Biden will not stone wall and claim privildge and file multiple law suits trying to shut things down.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #256 on: January 10, 2023, 12:42:54 PM »
https://news.yahoo.com/biden-classified-documents-mar-lago-235053252.html
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Biden, who rarely does interviews, spoke to CBS’ “60 Minutes” in a segment that aired Sunday. He said that when he heard about classified documents taken from the White House, he wondered how “anyone could be that irresponsible.”

Biden added: “And I thought, what data was in there that may compromise sources and methods?”

rightleft22

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #257 on: January 10, 2023, 01:24:32 PM »
Sadly it doesn't matter. Biden had files, therefore regardless of context or differences or investigation or rule of law... Trump is off the hook. Again

RINO cheer as the box of freedom they seek becomes smaller and smaller


Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #258 on: January 10, 2023, 03:21:49 PM »
Lloyd, if I were to bump into you in a hallway and immediately apologize, would you consider that roughly equivalent to punching you in the face and then, when you demand an apology, taking a fighting stance and daring you to fight me?

Lloyd Perna

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #259 on: January 10, 2023, 04:46:41 PM »
If the Democrats didn't have double standards, they would have no standards at all.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #260 on: January 10, 2023, 04:50:09 PM »
You know if Trump had turned over the documents in question when first asked about them, there would not be all the outrage happening about it.

It is more the cover up than that actual taking (even though the taking is an issue).

As soon as the Biden people realized there was an issue they took the correct steps to fix the issue.

When Trump heard there was an issue, he stonewalled and denied and opposed.

You really do not see any difference in the situations?

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #261 on: January 10, 2023, 04:51:24 PM »
At least the Dems have some stanards. The Republicans seem to have none. I mean look at Santos. His team even used McCarthy to scam big time Republican donors, and the Repubilcans have gutted the Ethics board.

Seriati

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #262 on: January 10, 2023, 05:00:56 PM »
It was unprecendented due to the fact that what Trump did was unprecendented.

It wasn't remotely unprecedented.  Before the modern area all the papers were considered the personal property of the President.  Even in the modern area there is a long history of back and forth on this, with Presidents often maintaining possession of records and even disputing that they are required to be turned over.  All of which was handled with maximum deference to the former Presidents.

What is unprecedented is the Biden administrations open hostility to Trump.  For example, removing him from the intelligence briefings that are provided to every former President.  Former Presidents have classified information in their heads, it can't be physically removed.  They traditional receive classified briefings (including in writing delivered to them) after they are out of office.

It's a paranoid fantasy to think there was any real risk here, especially when you don't think there's one in Biden's case where records were found in his office at a University.  Where else would you find records if you treated him like Trump?

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He has shown no evidence that he declassified the items. He did not say he had them, in fact he said he did not have them.

He "showed" all the evidence the Constitution would require.

That said, I'm willing to stipulate that he never specifically looked at each page and even thought this is declassified.  Wouldn't make a bit of difference in how unprecedented that raid was.

You guys got your panties in a bunch over a pretend conversation that Trump didn't have in respect of Ukraine because he was "investigating his political rival for political purposes," and do a heck of a lot of water carrying for the truly unprecedented encroachment here that was expressly and deliberately done by the current administration abusing the public trust for the primary purpose of impairing one of Biden's chief political rivals.  An investigation specifically timed to be carried out just before the "pre-election" filing window closed.  Talk about form over substance, from the same group of political hacks that have sat on any real investigation of actual corruption implicating the Biden's for over 2 years.  Including, spreading disinformation to social media that Hunter's laptop was Russian disinfo for the purpose of keeping it out of the public knowledge.

I can't decide if all of your arguments are more 1984, or more the Matrix.  Some people are so dependent on the Matrix that they will defend it.

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When Biden's team found the documents they immedialty contacted the correct authorities and turned them over.

When Biden's team found documents (before the mid-term election) the news was deliberately buried until well afterwards.   And of course they immediately moved to turn them over to the same political officers that would stab their own mothers in the eye to get Trump.  Big whoop.

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maybe that the raid on Trump's house is really without precedent in modern US history and never should have happened
Are you suggesting that an array of highly classified documents should have remained unsecured in Trump's possession after he left office?

I doubt there was even one document in his possession worthy of the label "highly classified document."  But yes, exactly in line with how every former President is in possession of knowledge that is legitimately classified at the highest levels available and the government has worked with them time and again to make sure they can receive and review those files at their homes and offices.

Or do you really believe that say Bill Clinton has never had classified documents at his house inappropriately?  Oh wait, there was that whole server of his wife's with State Department secrets in his basement, but that was also "not the same thing."  Even though that was actually hacked and exposed and then hand over to his wife's lawyers who didn't have security clearances and thereafter destroyed without being seized by the DOJ or the FBI even though at the time she was a former official and he was a former President.

Hmm....

If you want to be believed you need to have a rational basis free from the parties of the people involved.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #263 on: January 10, 2023, 11:45:43 PM »
Every now and then, Seriati, you say something that makes it painfully obvious that you're spouting someone else's apologia out your ass with no real understanding of an issue. This was one of those times.

Seriati

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #264 on: January 11, 2023, 11:34:37 PM »
Whose "apologia" exactly would that be?   Feel free to track down these accounts I would supposedly be copying from.  Of course, you'd need to actually make an original contribution of your own there, rather than just repeating left propaganda and relying on left privilege.

In the meantime, feel free to walk through an analysis of what a general warrant is, why they are unconstitutional and how using a warrant to enforce a disputable civil statute in open defiance of all past practice and then taking clearly personal documents from Trump's residence wasn't one.  I'll wait.  Then maybe your "thoughts" on what's comparable or not may be of some interest.

I haven't even raised any number of issues here, like for instance, that Trump didn't pack his own boxes and that members of the GAO would have been the ones that actually did much of the work.  As we know from his trip into the Whitehouse the GAO includes significant amounts of staff hostile to Trump.  It's not even an unreasonable idea even if it is still a conspiracy theory, to think how easy it would be for that staff to pack some files with secrecy labels and to convey that information to partisans at the National Archives.  Some of the relevant officials at the National Archives have hate-ons for Trump.

Or how any honest research into this would have say turned up as part of the controlling law the Bill Clinton case or the circumstances involved in the transfers of files by the Obamas.  It would have turned up that the same partisan administrators that sparked the raid on Trump bent over backwards to facilitate equivalent situations for the Clintons and the Obamas.  That they didn't seem to even consider that Biden may have had records, which by the way would have been transferred more than once to end up in his office at the University.  They then helped delay the story on Biden's issues until after the election.  Which of course is a super-common theme when it's a Democrat scandal, the government endlessly delays it and leaks it in controlled ways to kill the media cycle. 

Compare that to publishing active disinformation from leakers that was anti-Trump.  For example, the rumor that the FBI was looking for information on nuclear capabilities at Trump's residence - where did that come from?  We already know the National Archives was the "source" and that was in the media before anything "official" was released.  Need to justify the unjustifiable?  Just leak disinfo to the compliant media.  Honestly, if you did any honest thinking here, you'd look at the near ubiquitous "leaking" of information, disinformation and misinformation by bureaucrats and government partisans designed to cause maximum harm to Republicans and Trump in particular and designed to prop up Democrats and Biden, and realize it's too good to be true.  It's your confirmation bias - and nothing more - that keeps you from even realizing that there's enough out there to make a conclusive judgement here.

But hey nothing to see here, and even more importantly, nothing to think through with a critical mind.  Of course that part seems to be covered really well these days.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #265 on: January 11, 2023, 11:47:12 PM »
*sigh* Do you want to take another pass at that one, man? It isn't your best work, and I don't particularly feel like wasting my time addressing low-quality arguments you pretty clearly don't actually believe just to entertain a hypothetical Peanut Gallery.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #266 on: January 12, 2023, 01:48:31 PM »
So Garland is appointing a Special Counsel to look into the Biden documents.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/garland-appoints-robert-hur-as-special-counsel-to-oversee-biden-classified-docs-probe-184113576.html

I wonder how the Conservatives will spin this as protecting Biden?

Wayward Son

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #267 on: January 13, 2023, 10:59:27 AM »

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #268 on: January 13, 2023, 11:05:26 AM »
What do you expect from a RINO never Trumper like Rove?  I mean he's never met a Democrat he didn't like and support.[sarcasm]

jc44

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #269 on: January 13, 2023, 12:23:55 PM »
I haven't even raised any number of issues here, like for instance, that Trump didn't pack his own boxes and that members of the GAO would have been the ones that actually did much of the work.
I have to agree that it is exceptionally unlikely that Trump ever does any manual labour so he wouldn't have packed his boxes. The point to a large extent isn't that he had the files it is that after being asked to hand the files over he didn't get someone to do so (he wouldn't have packed those boxes either). If he'd done that there might have been a couple of days of press but it would have been all over ages ago.

If we are doing the conspiracy thing then maybe he made sure to keep some stuff back so it would cause a ruckus and he'd be back in the press again. Because we know that he withers away if he doesn't get enough attention.
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As we know from his trip into the Whitehouse the GAO includes significant amounts of staff hostile to Trump.  It's not even an unreasonable idea even if it is still a conspiracy theory, to think how easy it would be for that staff to pack some files with secrecy labels and to convey that information to partisans at the National Archives.  Some of the relevant officials at the National Archives have hate-ons for Trump.
Did you ever think there might be a reason we so many people that interact with the man dislike him? (Its not jealously of his massive  intellect.)

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #270 on: January 15, 2023, 08:39:53 PM »
Did you ever think there might be a reason we so many people that interact with the man dislike him? (Its not jealously of his massive  intellect.)

No - it is because of his successes. No matter how often you disinform, Trump was the most successful President possibly of all time.

You can't argue that, because there are too many for you to ignore.

Here is a compilation from Mark Lewis. Answer all of these
1. Unemployment and economic growth.
•Unemployment rates for African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, veterans, individuals with disabilities, and those without a high school diploma all reached record lows.
•Unemployment for women hit its lowest rate in nearly 70 years.
•Lifted nearly 7 million people off food stamps.
•Poverty rates for African Americans and Hispanic Americans reached record lows.
•Income inequality fell for two straight years, and by the largest amount in over a decade.
•The bottom 50 percent of American households saw a 40 percent increase in net worth.
•Wages rose fastest for low-income and blue-collar workers – a 16 percent pay increase.
•African American homeownership increased from 41.7 percent to 46.4 percent.
Trump, of course, is a “racist” and “sexist” to liberals; it is one of their prime charges against him, with absolutely no proof. It is hard to understand, though, why a man who hates minorities and women so much would institute policies that would be so beneficial to them.

2. Tax Relief
•Strengthened America’s rural economy by investing over $1.3 billion through the Agriculture Department’s ReConnect Program to bring high-speed broadband infrastructure to rural America.
•More than 6 million American workers received wage increases, bonuses, and increased benefits thanks to the tax cuts.
•A typical family of four earning $75,000 received an income tax cut of more than $2,000 – slashing their tax bill in half.
•Doubled the standard deduction – making the first $24,000 earned by a married couple completely tax-free.
•Doubled the child tax credit.
•Since the passage of tax cuts, the share of total wealth held by the bottom half of households has increased, while the share held by the top 1 percent has decreased.
•Over $1.5 trillion was repatriated into the United States from overseas.
•Created nearly 9,000 Opportunity Zones where capital gains on long-term investments are taxed at zero.
Americans were able to keep more of the money they earned. Only a Marxist (yes, Democrat) would object to that.

3. Regulations

•Instead of 2-for-1, Trump eliminated 8 old regulations for every 1 new regulation adopted.
•Provided the average American household an extra $3,100 every year.
•Removed nearly 25,000 pages from the Federal Register – more than any other president. The previous administration added over 16,000 pages.
Mr. Trump was very pro-business, something else that is anathema to the Left. Yet, the removal of onerous, needless regulations, not only helped small business owners, but cheapened costs and provided more money for average Americans.

4. Trade
•Immediately withdrew from the job-killing Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).
•Ended the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), and replaced it with the brand new United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA).
•The USMCA contains powerful new protections for American manufacturers, auto-makers, farmers, dairy producers, and workers.
•Negotiated another deal with Japan to boost $40 billion worth of digital trade.
•China agreed to purchase an additional $200 billion worth of United States exports and opened market access for over 4,000 American facilities to exports while all tariffs remained in effect.
•Imposed tariffs on hundreds of billions worth of Chinese goods to protect American jobs and stop China’s abuses under Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962 and Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974.
•Achieved a mutual agreement with the European Union (EU) that addresses unfair trade practices and increases duty-free exports by 180 percent to $420 million.
•Successfully negotiated more than 50 agreements with countries around the world to increase foreign market access and boost exports of American agriculture products, supporting more than 1 million American jobs.
Economics is not something most Americans understand very well, thus the benefits of the above are not easily understood, or quickly perceived or felt, by most. Yet, the list is clear enough to make the Left angry. Mr. Trump negotiated trade deals that benefitted the United States. He still had much to do in that regard, but he was denied another four years in which to do it. Obviously, the country has suffered greatly the last two years because of that.

5. Energy
   •   For the first time in nearly 70 years, the United States became a net energy exporter.
   •   The United States was energy independent, not having to beg our enemies to produce oil and natural gas for our consumption.
   •   The United States became the number one producer of oil and natural gas in the world.
   •   Natural gas production reached a record high of 34.9 quads in 2019, following record-high production in 2018 and 2017.
   •   Approved the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines.
   •   Opened up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) in Alaska for oil and gas leasing.
   •   Renewable energy production and consumption both reached record highs in 2019.

The average price of a gallon of gasoline, while it varied around the country, was far lower than it has been under Mr. Biden, and the Ukrainian war is not the only or even major reason. Gas prices were going up long before Putin invaded Ukraine simply because Biden cut oil and gas production. Less of a commodity will raise its price. That is, of course, what Mr. Biden intended because he wants America on “renewables” to placate his “green” supporters.

6. HealthCare   •   Increased choice for consumers by promoting competition in the individual health insurance market leading to lower premiums for three years in a row.
   •   Under the Trump Administration, more than 90 percent of the counties have multiple options on the individual insurance market to choose from.
   •   Eliminated costly Obamacare taxes, including the health insurance tax, the medical device tax, and the “Cadillac tax.”
   •   Lowered drug prices for the first time in 51 years.
   •   Launched an initiative to stop global freeloading in the drug market.
   •   Signed first-ever executive order to affirm that it is the official policy of the United States Government to protect patients with pre-existing conditions.
   •   Passed Right To Try to give terminally ill patients access to lifesaving cures.
   •   Signed an executive order to fight kidney disease with more transplants and better treatment.
   •   Signed into law a $1 billion increase in funding for critical Alzheimer’s research.
   •   Accelerated medical breakthroughs in genetic treatments for Sickle Cell disease.

7. Judiciary
   •   Nominated and confirmed over 230 Federal judges.
   •   Confirmed 54 judges to the United States Courts of Appeals, making up nearly a third of the entire appellate bench.
   •   Appointed Justice Neil Gorsuch to replace Justice Antonin Scalia.
   •   Appointed Justice Brett Kavanaugh to replace Justice Anthony Kennedy.
   •   Appointed Justice Amy Coney Barrett to replace Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

Liberals hate these actions, but a court system that respects the Constitution is necessary for a constitutional republic that believes in checks and balances. The Left, of course, doesn’t believe in either a constitutional republic or checks and balances. They want all power to the Party (Democrat).

8. Environment
   •   Invested over $38 billion in clean water infrastructure.
   •   In 2019, America achieved the largest decline in carbon emissions of any country on earth. Since withdrawing from the Paris Climate Accord, the United States has reduced carbon emissions more than any nation.
   •   In FY 2019 the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) cleaned up more major pollution sites than any year in nearly two decades.
   •   The USMCA guarantees the strongest environmental protections of any trade agreement in history.
   •   Signed the Save Our Seas Act to protect our environment from foreign nations that litter our oceans with debris and developed the first-ever Federal strategic plan to address marine litter.

One of the major accusations liberals throw at Republicans is “you Republicans don’t care anything about the environment.” My far-left, hate-America brother gave that to me one time and I just laughed at him. It is demonstrably untrue, and Mr. Trump’s actions prove it. There is such a thing as “responsible environmentalism,” and there is “radical environmentalism.” Conservatives (“conservation,” wise use of resources) believe in the former; the Left, accepting every ridiculous environmental theory that comes from MSNBC and Hollywood, believes in the latter. Mr. Trump’s actions were good and wise for the environment.

9. The southern border
   •   Built over 400 miles of the world’s most robust and advanced border wall.
   •   Illegal crossings plummeted by over 87 percent where the wall has been constructed.
   •   Deployed nearly 5,000 troops to the Southern border. In addition, Mexico deployed tens of thousands of its soldiers and national guardsmen to secure their side of the US-Mexico border.
   •   Ended the dangerous practice of Catch-and-Release, which means that instead of aliens getting released into the United States pending future hearings never to be seen again, they are detained pending removal, and then ultimately returned to their home countries.
   •   Entered into three historic asylum cooperation agreements with Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala to stop asylum fraud and resettle illegal migrants in third-party nations pending their asylum applications.
   •   Entered into a historic partnership with Mexico, referred to as the “Migrant Protection Protocols,” to safely return asylum-seekers to Mexico while awaiting hearings in the United States.Of course, Joe Biden has destroyed this; America no longer has a southern border, and even some Democrats have complained about it. If it hadn’t been for Mitch McConnell and the Washington Establishment, there is no doubt there would be a wall across the entire expanse of the American-Mexican border now. Not that it would matter. Biden would have torn it down. This may be the area where we miss Trump the most. Biden is diluting America into non-recognizability.

10. NATO, foreign affairs, and the military
   •   Secured a $400 billion increase in defense spending from NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) allies by 2024, and the number of members meeting their minimum obligations more than doubled.
   •   Credited by Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg for strengthening NATO.
   •   Worked to reform and streamline the United Nations (UN) and reduced spending by $1.3 billion.
   •   Allies, including Japan and the Republic of Korea, committed to increasing burden-sharing.
   •   Protected our Second Amendment rights by announcing the United States will never ratify the UN Arms Trade Treaty.
   •   Withdrew from the horrible, one-sided Iran Nuclear Deal and imposed crippling sanctions on the Iranian Regime.
   •   Brokered historic peace agreements between Israel and Arab-Muslim countries, including the United Arab Emirates, the Kingdom of Bahrain, and Sudan.
   •   Completely rebuilt the United States military with over $2.2 trillion in defense spending, including $738 billion for 2020.
   •   Secured three pay raises for our service members and their families, including the largest raise in a decade.
   •   
This is a partial list, of course, which must be limited due to space. There are many other items to be added here (e.g., Israel and more Middle Eastern accomplishments), and you can read about them at my website.

11. Education

   •   The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act expanded School Choice, allowing parents to use up to $10,000 from 529 education savings account to cover K-12 tuition costs at the public, private, or religious school of their choice.
   •   Launched a new pro-American lesson plan for students called the 1776 Commission to promote patriotic education.
   •   Prohibited the teaching of Critical Race Theory in the Federal government.

There was much more to be done here as well, as is obvious to every sane American, but these accomplishments are notable.


wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #271 on: January 15, 2023, 09:25:37 PM »
*sigh* Do you want to take another pass at that one, man? It isn't your best work, and I don't particularly feel like wasting my time addressing low-quality arguments you pretty clearly don't actually believe just to entertain a hypothetical Peanut Gallery.

You are so out of your league.

Why don't you just concern yourself with the fact that Biden is a liar and had possession of documents he was not allowed to have as a private citizen. Others who did far less went to prison. Documents involving China and Ukraine in unprotected places with Hunter there to share them with his benefactors.

He certainly was not transparent - accusing Trump as irresponsible when he knew he had illegal documents before the elections.

He also stopped including Trump in classified updates as all past presidents have always been. Did he also stop including Obama, Clinton, Bush, and Carter? They have always been updated, because the secrets in their heads need to be updated for their relevancy.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #272 on: January 15, 2023, 10:39:05 PM »
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Why don't you just concern yourself with the fact that Biden is a liar and had possession of documents he was not allowed to have as a private citizen.
Leaving all else aside (and, believe me, that's leaving a lot aside; unpacking your post is like heading down a rabbit hole of foolish delusion), I didn't "just" concern myself with the fact that Biden is a liar who was until recently improperly in possession of classified documents because neither Seriati nor I were in fact discussing Biden at all. You're essentially asking why someone writing a movie review of Avatar didn't just concern themselves with all the narrative problems in Glass Onion.

rightleft22

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #273 on: January 16, 2023, 05:03:48 PM »
Republicans have demanded to see the logs to his Delaware home after classified files were discovered there.

I'm assuming the same republicans have demanded to see the Trumps visitor logs to Mar-a-Lago but no mention of it in the story

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #274 on: January 16, 2023, 05:44:09 PM »
Even when they know that it is long standing precedent that Presidents do not need to keep logs like that at their private homes. So Trump not providing that for Mar-A-Lago is not an issue for me.


What is an issue si that Trump did not release visitor logs for the White House. Which Biden has been doing. And almost all previous Presidents for the past 50 years have done so.
So much for transparency.

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #275 on: January 22, 2023, 02:29:30 PM »
Republicans have demanded to see the logs to his Delaware home after classified files were discovered there.

I'm assuming the same republicans have demanded to see the Trumps visitor logs to Mar-a-Lago but no mention of it in the story

As a matter of fact, Trump has stated that the Secret Service who guarded his home and stored unclassified documents have always kept strict visitors logs. Dan Bongino who was employed in that position for multiple presidents from 1999 to 2011 backed up that fact and also noted that the SS did the same with all of Biden's offices and homes.

We now know Hunter Biden claimed ownership of properties where the Classified documents were stored and had access to them as well as his suspect guests. He claimed he paid the Big Guy $50,000 a month as rent to launder money from the Chinese and other of his employers.

jc44

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #276 on: January 23, 2023, 04:43:56 AM »
As a matter of fact, Trump has stated that the Secret Service who guarded his home and stored unclassified documents have always kept strict visitors logs.
If that statement meant more than simply Trump has said something (a hardly unusual occurrence) then we probably wouldn't be having half the disagreements that we are.
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Dan Bongino who was employed in that position for multiple presidents from 1999 to 2011 backed up that fact and also noted that the SS did the same with all of Biden's offices and homes.
Assuming that is true I'm hardly surprised - they would be extremely remiss in their duty if they didn't keep such records at least for a while (there might be mandatory destruction after some period). It does mean that Trump, or at least the Secret Service (SS seems defamatory) could release the Mar a Lago records though I'm guessing that there are strong precedents for the Secret part of Secret Service applying here. If you lose faith in your bodyguard because they tell on you then they can't do their job.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #277 on: January 24, 2023, 12:41:59 PM »
Now documents were found in Pence's home.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/lawyer-classified-documents-found-mike-172503729.html

Again, to me what the main issue is how the people involved responded to the finding of documents. Biden and Pence seem to be following the rules and activly working to return the documents.

Trump did the exact oposite.

rightleft22

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #278 on: January 24, 2023, 12:57:16 PM »
Another question that has to be answered if how such and thing can happen.
I think we can say that the process for tracking and handling of government classified documents is a failure.

NobleHunter

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #279 on: January 24, 2023, 12:58:42 PM »
The process of classifying government documents is a failure.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #280 on: January 24, 2023, 01:05:11 PM »
In general, top executives at all levels -- both in government and private business -- are terrible at complying with regulations that would get the rank-and-file fired and blacklisted for life. This is partly because they often have staff whose job is to clean up after them, and rarely have people assigned to make sure that this cleanup happens properly. It's one of the reasons that I'm generally so atavistically contemptuous of the C-suite.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #281 on: January 24, 2023, 06:42:21 PM »

NobleHunter

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #282 on: January 24, 2023, 07:32:21 PM »
I wonder if they are going to do a broader search for classified documents being held by assorted politicians or ex-politicians. If so, I think the only real question is if they find classified or controlled documents more than half the time.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #283 on: January 25, 2023, 07:09:32 AM »
Waiting to see how Wm and other RINO MAGA Trumpist say that what Pence did is no issue as compared to what Biden did.

TheDrake

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #284 on: January 25, 2023, 07:37:52 AM »
I'm betting on Nunez.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #285 on: January 25, 2023, 05:42:27 PM »
Fox host Jesse Waters is upset that now Fox has to present both sides since Pence did the same thing Biden did with documents.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/jesse-watters-bummed-mike-pence-013910639.html

He even suggested that Pence should have just burned the documents. No one would have known.

TheDrake

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #286 on: January 26, 2023, 08:46:36 AM »
Pence has values. They are 18th century values, but he has his own integrity both in the EC refusal to violate the integrity of our election process, and in this case.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #287 on: January 26, 2023, 08:50:20 AM »
And that is why Trump will never pick him to be VP in the next cycle. Trump need someone as moraly bankrupt as himself, so MTG looks to be running in first place.

rightleft22

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #288 on: January 26, 2023, 09:26:58 AM »
Fox news went on rant that xBox was now Woke because they may thier system more energy efferent, a obvious move to indoctrinating the youth into caring about enviourment waist. I don't think the words they like to use so much means what they think it means which just makes them sound ridiculous. 
I wouldn't give two *censored*s for anything Fox reports.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #289 on: January 26, 2023, 10:18:30 AM »
A pretty good take on the effect Trump has had on other high level politicians having documents.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/george-conway-explains-why-donald-084134420.html

Again is it not so much that he had them, it is the fact that he refused to give them back and lied about having them.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #290 on: January 26, 2023, 10:34:19 AM »
I have a handful of friends on Black Twitter who are VERY unhappy about the way terms they invent tend to become convenient shorthand among liberals and then vilified and misused by conservatives.

msquared

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #291 on: January 27, 2023, 06:03:35 PM »
May not agree with Pence's politics, but he seems to be a man of honor and integrity.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pence-takes-full-responsibility-classified-202906683.html

Fenring

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #292 on: January 27, 2023, 06:10:16 PM »
I have a handful of friends on Black Twitter who are VERY unhappy about the way terms they invent tend to become convenient shorthand among liberals and then vilified and misused by conservatives.

Just out of curiosity, do you think they are primarily offended because they want sole 'ownership' of these new terms and want everyone else to refrain from using them, or is it specifically because their detractors use their own terms against them?

Wayward Son

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #293 on: January 27, 2023, 08:54:20 PM »
Perhaps it is a third possibility, like the fact that conservatives use the term but twist the meaning into something completely different. ;)

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #294 on: January 28, 2023, 01:35:19 PM »
I think the issue is two-fold:
1) Appropriation by non-minority leftists for whom the term lacks cultural meaning and who may not apply it in the correct context
2) Perversion by political enemies who never bother to understand the correct usage of the term and instead mock and deride a strawman version of the white liberal usage

I imagine that it smarts even more precisely because this new slang terminology keeps getting created as a way to more precisely describe something with cultural connotations, and that's the first thing that gets stripped when it's first popularized and then later ignorantly vilified. While I can't speak for all the people involved, obviously, it's probably rather like someone who's marched with antifa hearing DeSantis describe antifa as a "fascist terrorist organization."

wmLambert

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #295 on: January 29, 2023, 03:20:46 PM »
I think the issue is two-fold:
1) Appropriation by non-minority leftists for whom the term lacks cultural meaning and who may not apply it in the correct context
2) Perversion by political enemies who never bother to understand the correct usage of the term and instead mock and deride a strawman version of the white liberal usage

I imagine that it smarts even more precisely because this new slang terminology keeps getting created as a way to more precisely describe something with cultural connotations, and that's the first thing that gets stripped when it's first popularized and then later ignorantly vilified. While I can't speak for all the people involved, obviously, it's probably rather like someone who's marched with antifa hearing DeSantis describe antifa as a "fascist terrorist organization."

Might that be because DeSantis uses the term "Fascist" correctly and identifies Antifa according to that totally accurate definition? It seems you want to use the patois of the uninformed and call it acceptable - yet ignore its obvious discordant wannabeism. Calling a hat a glove - then blaming those who understand both terms, and insulting them as being "ignorantly vilifying" is itself unacceptable.

Firstly, Antifa is more than a local coming-together of kindred spirits. Unless you made the same argument of the KKK which was a Democrat appendage. Antifa is blessed, funded, and protected by Democrats and complicit hangers-on and media. The "people involved" have no claim on the proper use of language because they misuse and misapply it. Not using understandable and precise terminology just gives a lazy person a moving target to define one's inconsistency.

Those who bother to check it out notice that these Antifa (or BLM) are the exact same people who showed up in other locations, representing other issues. They, and the Occupy Wall Street group were paid by the same Soros-funding cut-outs. How is a protest spontaneous if it is paid for?

Fenring

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #296 on: January 29, 2023, 06:19:30 PM »
Might that be because DeSantis uses the term "Fascist" correctly and identifies Antifa according to that totally accurate definition? It seems you want to use the patois of the uninformed and call it acceptable - yet ignore its obvious discordant wannabeism. Calling a hat a glove - then blaming those who understand both terms, and insulting them as being "ignorantly vilifying" is itself unacceptable.

Dude. Of all the comments he's made you chose to pick on the one weaker one instead of the others? This particular remark is hardly relevant other than, as he said in the other thread, an analogy.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #297 on: January 29, 2023, 10:42:43 PM »
Quote
Might that be because DeSantis uses the term "Fascist" correctly and identifies Antifa according to that totally accurate definition?
No. Please be less stupid.

TheDrake

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #298 on: January 30, 2023, 07:04:53 AM »
I wonder if the British thought the protests in Boston were paid for by the some elite colonists because the same people kept showing up. Or does that only happen after you invent radio? Sometimes a protest is a just a protest. Or is it that when the same people kept showing up to protests in Hong Kong, it means they are being controlled by an outside power, just like the Chinese state media says they are.

Tom

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Re: The Trump Papers
« Reply #299 on: January 30, 2023, 09:01:50 AM »
The mere fact that Lambert continues to use "Antifa" and "BLM" interchangeably tells you how informed he's bothered to make himself.