Author Topic: Orlando massacre  (Read 99045 times)

cherrypoptart

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #100 on: June 16, 2016, 04:41:42 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/06/16/john-mccain-obama-is-directly-responsible-for-orlando-attack/

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), the elder Republican statesman, said President Obama was “directly responsible” for the terror attack in Orlando due to his failure to combat the rise of the Islamic State terror group...

... He answered the question about the gun debate by citing Obama’s culpability for the attack through his foreign policy: “Barack Obama is directly responsible for it, because when he pulled everybody out of Iraq, al-Qaeda went to Syria, became ISIS, and ISIS is what it is today thanks to Barack Obama’s failures,” McCain said...

... When pressed by a reporter on the claim that Obama was “directly” responsible, McCain reiterated his point — that Obama should not have withdrawn combat troops from Iraq: “He pulled everybody out of Iraq, and I predicted at the time that ISIS would go unchecked, and there would be attacks on the United States of America,” he said. “It’s a matter of record, so he is directly responsible.”

In a statement released Thursday afternoon after the comments were publicized, McCain said he “misspoke.”

“I did not mean to imply that the President was personally responsible,” he said. “I was referring to President Obama’s national security decisions, not the President himself. As I have said, President Obama’s decision to completely withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq in 2011 led to the rise of ISIL. I and others have long warned that the failure of the President’s policy to deny ISIL safe haven would allow the terrorist organization to inspire, plan, direct or conduct attacks on the United States and Europe as they have done in Paris, Brussels, San Bernardino and now Orlando.”

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I agree with McCain to a certain extent that many of the deaths ISIS has caused could have been prevented by keeping our troops in Iraq until the fledgling democracy could get off its feet instead of doing what Obama did and taking the hatchling into his hands and throwing it out of the nest a hundred feet in the air and watching it promptly fall to its heartbreaking death.

But... if ISIS never existed or was crushed in its infancy by Obama like Iraq's democracy it doesn't seem likely that it would have prevented this. The guy would have just said he was doing it for some other Muslim terrorist group like al-Qaeda.

DJQuag

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #101 on: June 16, 2016, 04:55:57 PM »
Couple of things.

I'm the last person to get all PC about things, but it looks to me that we have a self hating gay who latched onto ISIS as an excuse for his actions. He went there to shoot gays because he was supremely pissed off that he was gay, and him yelling Allah Akhbar in his last seconds was just something to distract from that.

Second, Arizona passed a law five or so years ago allowing people who weren't drinking to bring firearms into bars. There was of course much wailing and gnashing of teeth, predictions of apocalypse and all that,  but business carried on as usual.

DJQuag

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #102 on: June 16, 2016, 04:57:26 PM »
So...ISIS hates Al Quaida and actively fights against them. Someone should pass that memo on to McCain.

Fenring

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #103 on: June 16, 2016, 07:27:39 PM »
So...ISIS hates Al Quaida and actively fights against them. Someone should pass that memo on to McCain.

It's not confusion, it's deliberate deception. They take every opportunity to latch the public's perception of ISIS onto the baggage of Al Qaeda, even though American foreign policy has in several instances outright allied itself with Al Qaeda in the last few years to deal with other groups. The Yemen civil war is a good instance of this, where 'allied' forces were fighting virtually alongside Al Qaeda to quash the Houthis.

Pete at Home

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #104 on: June 16, 2016, 07:44:21 PM »
Couple of things.

I'm the last person to get all PC about things, but it looks to me that we have a self hating gay who latched onto ISIS as an excuse for his actions.

That's a small part of the story, but not the whole thing.  What that oversimplification misses out on, is that at least half the 9/11 hijackers were self-hating indulgers in some Western sin or another.  I met some of the people in Vegas that they used to party with.  And they all latched on to Al Qaeda as a means of redemption. 

In the Abrahamic tradition, homosexual and is all in the same basic sin ballpark.  I've seen Islamists actually argue in their forums that in Paradise, that "pleasures forbidden on earth in the Koran" are permitted to martyrs, and saw two distinct folks specifically argue that Allah would give the martyr at least thirty nubile boys if that was his inclination.

Some evidence that Mohammed Atta was inclined to male male play as well.  Would you dismiss his role in 9/11 as nothing more than "gay self hate"?

The homosexuality information is relevant, but it's nothing but obfuscation to pretend that it explains the whole story.  Take away self-hatred and guilt and a desire for redemption, and there wouldn't be many jihadis and crusaders left.  Speak of crusaders, have you read the profile of the folks that joined the Templar organization?

Pete at Home

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #105 on: June 16, 2016, 07:48:11 PM »
So...ISIS hates Al Quaida and actively fights against them. Someone should pass that memo on to McCain.

They fight in some areas, cooperate in others, and in some seem to operate by nonaggression pact.  At times ISIS members have killed each other.

I imagine that at some point, Isaac Asimov's First Foundation fought against the second.  And while Christians say that John the Baptist paved the way for Christ, the Sabeans claim to follow John the baptist and say Jesus who? 

It's complicated.

Pete at Home

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #106 on: June 16, 2016, 07:52:52 PM »
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On the contrary, you and quite a number of others want to ban guns.
I'm not going to debate this with you for the umpteenth time, just ask that you stop lying and misrepresenting what I've said repeatedly.

Are you obfuscating, or do you really not take the position that the "right to bear arms" applies only gives defensive weapon rights to folks in the armed forces, reserves, or police?

You've certainly never told me otherwise.

DJQuag

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #107 on: June 16, 2016, 07:59:19 PM »
If Mohammed Atta had targeted exclusively gay people, had tried to have a marriage with a wife and failed, and if he had had hardly any contact with Al Qaeda command, then yes. I would have considered him a closet case that struck out against those who were comfortable with the aspect of himself that he was so ashamed of.

AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #108 on: June 16, 2016, 08:07:51 PM »
Quote
On the contrary, you and quite a number of others want to ban guns.
I'm not going to debate this with you for the umpteenth time, just ask that you stop lying and misrepresenting what I've said repeatedly.

Are you obfuscating, or do you really not take the position that the "right to bear arms" applies only gives defensive weapon rights to folks in the armed forces, reserves, or police?

You've certainly never told me otherwise.
I've never said any such thing, and have MANY times given detailed suggestions for how to make gun ownership by PRIVATE CITIZENS more responsible and safe.

AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #109 on: June 16, 2016, 08:14:39 PM »
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I know it's embarrassing to be caught repeating a lie like that Obama wanted to create a private standing army, carrying water for anti-Obama demagogues, but you can avoid it in the future if you use google and a tiny fraction of the skepticism you direct toward Obama himself.
I wish it were skepticism, but no matter how many times Cherry has been hammered for this sort of thing, he eventually comes back repeating the same old things.  As I mentioned, he has given his opinions in support of almost every conspiracy theory regarding Obama.  Even as he admits he was wrong on this one he can't resist negating that admission with:
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Although I'm hardly embarrassed about doubting the "greatest and most trustworthy politician since honest Abe with the most transparent administration in history" (sarcasm) because Obama is a proven liar many times over starting with his Grubering of America and even up to now with his deceitfulness on the Iran deal with Rhodes. Obama deserves all the skepticism everyone in their right mind heaps upon his name. And more.
  See, Obama is even *more* wrong than he was before, even though Cherry's charges are completely unfounded.  It's not that Obama can't get a break, it's that he isn't allowed to.

Cherry, you still haven't answered a key question.  Are any gun laws justified given the absolute nature of the 2E?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #110 on: June 16, 2016, 10:40:44 PM »
Well that quote by Obama was defended well enough so maybe we can make it 3 for 3 and defend the quote by Gruber "the architect" about needing to lie to the stupid American people about Obamacare to pass it and the story by Rhodes about lying to the media in an Obama orchestrated purposeful deception about the Iran deal and watching them lap it on up and spit it on out not to mention Obama's lie about the Benghazi attack being caused by a film. No, just because Obama wasn't wrong that time doesn't mean he wasn't wrong plenty of others.  Don't try to make Obama out to be some sort of angel just because he didn't commit every crime he was ever accused of because I'm sure he got away with plenty more that we don't even know about. I just wish Obama would have gotten his civil service corps (not civilian national defense force) done while he and Congress had control of our government instead of or in addition to Obamacare. Maybe then he'd actually have something useful to show for his time in office. If I'm willing to admit when Obama was right are any of his supporters willing to admit when he was wrong?

I think the gun laws are fine as they are. What we need to do is enforce them and get tougher on criminals. Here's another conspiracy theory for you. Obama is purposefully NOT rigorously enforcing the federal gun laws already on the books because he actually WANTS more gun violence to support his dream of gun grabbing which of course all goes away if gun violence goes down. I haven't looked into it in detail but that's the theory and it's also backed up by the gun walking into Mexico he did putting heavy assault weapons into the hands of the drug cartels and then losing track of them which like Iraq Bush may have started but Obama mobarred (trying not to use a curse word even in an acronym there).

The main improvement I would suggest regarding gun laws is that there should be a federal concealed carry license. It would be granted only after the most rigorous testing and background check and ideally anyone who had one would have continuous computerized background checks to make sure they are staying out of trouble. Once you get one though it will be valid in every state though still subject to the same rules the states and cities have about bars and other places.  They say a Florida license is the closest thing right now because it has the most reciprocation with other states. Of course the 9th Circuit's recent ruling that a complete concealed carry permit ban is legal would be thrown right out the window and those judges would be given a harsh reprimand to go into their permanent record along with a requirement to do a forty page report in APA style with at least twelve non-internet references on the Constitution concentrating on the 2nd Amendment.

The gun laws we have now are a credible deterrent against governmental tyranny so they are fine. Just enforce them better. And make the penalties for violating them in the commission of a crime much harsher and stop crying if that has a disparate impact. The lives saved will also be mostly minorities too so that will more than balance out.


AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #112 on: June 17, 2016, 06:39:59 AM »
Quote
Don't try to make Obama out to be some sort of angel just because he didn't commit every crime he was ever accused of because I'm sure he got away with plenty more that we don't even know about.
Just so you at least have a chance to see your own blind spot, you let him off the hook when your claim is exposed as a total falsehood and you make up for it by confidently replacing it with "plenty more" that you DON'T EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT.  When your next lie is exposed you will replace it with another load of unknown unknowns that PROVE how bad he is.  I get it, I totally get it.

Quote
think the gun laws are fine as they are. What we need to do is enforce them and get tougher on criminals. Here's another conspiracy theory for you. Obama is purposefully NOT rigorously enforcing the federal gun laws already on the books because he actually WANTS more gun violence to support his dream of gun grabbing which of course all goes away if gun violence goes down. I haven't looked into it in detail but that's the theory and it's also backed up by the gun walking into Mexico he did putting heavy assault weapons into the hands of the drug cartels and then losing track of them which like Iraq Bush may have started but Obama mobarred (trying not to use a curse word even in an acronym there).
Yep, another unprovable assertion.  Your pattern here, as with the claims about the civilian corps, is to yield an inch (gun laws are fine) and take a mile (he wants more gun violence), when every single utterance Obama has ever made and every policy action he has taken says the exact opposite of what you insist is the case.  There's the old saying that every setback just makes you stronger; in your case the setbacks are facts.

Pete at Home

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #113 on: June 17, 2016, 08:42:05 AM »
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On the contrary, you and quite a number of others want to ban guns.
I'm not going to debate this with you for the umpteenth time, just ask that you stop lying and misrepresenting what I've said repeatedly.

Are you obfuscating, or do you really not take the position that the "right to bear arms" applies only gives defensive weapon rights to folks in the armed forces, reserves, or police?

You've certainly never told me otherwise.
I've never said any such thing, and have MANY times given detailed suggestions for how to make gun ownership by PRIVATE CITIZENS more responsible and safe.

Please link to an example of when you made such "detailed suggestions" in a conversation with ME, or apologize for accusing me of "lying," or I will assume that you, in one of your typical fits of team-think pique, have falsified yet another accusation of "lying" in order to balm your vanity over Cherry saying that he's caught you in a lie.  You always have had this jackass mindset going where you act as if everyone who disagrees with you on a cultural issue (be it abortion or guns or religion) has the same position that you watched on FOX news, despite all of their arguments to the contrary.

I've inferred that you hold an anti-gun position because every time anyone die by gunfire, I have seen you come out here shrieking that no one wants to "do anything" about gun violence, "anything" being some vague unspecified blank check gun restrictions.  Here on this thread, I asked you point blank what your proposal was, and you've dodged the question by referencing unlinked and unstated supposed past arguments.  Looks like Alfuscation.  Please prove me wrong.

Pete at Home

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #114 on: June 17, 2016, 08:53:52 AM »
If Mohammed Atta had targeted exclusively gay people

You think that shooting up a gay club targets *exclusively* gay people?  I thought it was a gay *dance* club, not a gay hook up club.  Hell, even when I was religious and mormon, I've been dancing at gay clubs to celebrate birthdays of gay friends and co-workers.  And I have friends in Orlando, one of whom messaged me the day after the shooting to let me know she was OK.

Again, the gay thing is relevant, but it's not exclusively a gay thing.  The homosexuality issue is just a slice of the Islamist guilt and murder for redemption issue.

If this Orlando massacre had been committed by a self described Christian with gay predilections, (self-hating gay) who referred to gays as "sodomites" and quoted and expressed sympathy for Christian groups that promote violence against gays, would you really claim that the killing was "exclusively" about his "gay self hatred" and had nothing to do with his religious affiliation?

Pete at Home

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #115 on: June 17, 2016, 09:01:13 AM »


Second, Arizona passed a law five or so years ago allowing people who weren't drinking to bring firearms into bars. There was of course much wailing and gnashing of teeth, predictions of apocalypse and all that,  but business carried on as usual.

nod.  Sounds like an excellent law.  I particularly like the "who weren't drinking" caveat.  I shudder at stories of hunters getting plastered while toting semiautomatic rifles in the wilderness.  I will never forgive John Kerry for arguing that the 2nd Amendment was about the right to hunt rather than a private right to self-defense and defense of immediate others (which is what "militia" references in the 2nd amendment context).  I'd rather we had a month long spear hunting season.  Might do something for American obesity.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #116 on: June 17, 2016, 09:18:41 AM »
I'm not quite sure I said that I caught Al in a lie. I was trying to say that Obama has lied many times, provably, so saying someone should be embarrassed for not believing Obama is a bit much. I'm also going to blame the victim here a little bit, who in this case is Obama with his national civil defense force, because he hasn't really acted on it like he said he would in that speech. So the conservatives lied about what he meant and Obama did actually lie because I think that's a promise on his part to really do, or at least try to do, what he was advocating there and yet we haven't seen much if any action on it and we haven't seen any results. We have massive unemployment and many of those people could be doing some good and getting some useful job experience acting in this civil service but we don't see. it. We didn't see the proposal from any of the Democrats in Congress or Obama's push for it once he became President. If the Republicans ended up shooting it down then fine, but they never even got the chance because the merits of it were never argued for by Obama once in office and it was never proposed. If it had been it would be kind of a big deal right now and nobody would be confused about what he said. It wasn't the type of lie I thought it was but if a broken promise is a lie then it was another Obama lie after all.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/09/politics/obama-executive-orders-gun-control-enforcement-gap/

"What is not disputed is that federal prosecutors bring far fewer cases against gun crimes than the amount of crime suggests they could.
Jennifer Baker of the NRA cited her group's calculation that federal gun prosecutions have declined 40% under Obama's administration, after peaking in 2004.

Taya Kyle, the widow of Navy SEAL Chris Kyle, who was murdered at a shooting range, seemed to refer to the NRA's statistic Thursday night in challenging Obama on his efforts to impose more gun regulations.

"Last I heard, the federal prosecution of gun crimes was like 40%. And what I mean by that is that there are people lying on these forms already, and we're not prosecuting them. So there's an issue there, right?" Kyle asked Obama.

Obama did not answer that specific point of her question, making a case that a decline in violent crime rates does not mean guns can't be made safer. He also repeatedly said that not solving all problems is not a reason not to try to solve any."

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Not such a conspiracy theory after all... Some other parts of the article offer up some pathetic excuses but the fact remains that Obama is prosecuting far fewer violations of federal gun laws than he could. Maybe that's a better place to start than going after the law abiding citizens with new laws. If he doesn't have the resources to prosecute existing laws then maybe get those resources before making the situation worse with new laws.

Pete at Home

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #117 on: June 17, 2016, 09:24:44 AM »
From my experience here, if you say anything negative about Obama, Al responds as if you attacked him personally.  Rich folk sink enough money into a candidate or corporation, they can't help seeing it as an extension of their royal person.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #118 on: June 17, 2016, 09:26:52 AM »
I would be curious though to see the proposed new law that would have stopped this attack.

Getting rid of the AR15 isn't going to count though. It would have made it a bit more of a hassle but the same attack could still have taken place. It would have just cost a bit more. I'm sure putting it on a credit card wouldn't be a big deal though. They are very easy to get. All he'd have to do is buy six handguns. Or more. It's such a close space in there there that the range of the AR15 over a handgun didn't matter and he didn't have any trouble reloading while the police took hours to breach. I had heard reports he had a suicide bomb vest as well. Or he could have made a car bomb and just crashed it into the place. Or a few of those pressure cooker bombs. What is the law that would have stopped him from buying the guns?

I did see that one store refused to sell him body armor. Before he committed this crime there was no law against that either. If he hadn't committed this crime that store would probably lose a federal lawsuit headed by Lynch for violating his civil rights. And so might any store that refused to sell him a gun.

AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #119 on: June 17, 2016, 09:35:24 AM »
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Please link to an example of when you made such "detailed suggestions" in a conversation with ME, or apologize for accusing me of "lying," or I will assume that you, in one of your typical fits of team-think pique, have falsified yet another accusation of "lying" in order to balm your vanity over Cherry saying that he's caught you in a lie.
You would have to go back to old Ornery, which I just did to help you out.  Here are a few:

I searched for "gun regulations" and Wessex.  These are two of the many comments I made in "Semi-Automatic Weapons and High Capacity Magazines" and you commented directly (quoted me) on at least one my posts.
http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/6/15887.html#000027
http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/6/15887.html#000035

I also made many comments in "Connecticut mass killings -- OF CHILDREN!".  You can look them up and then go look for other comments I have made in the past in a number of other threads.  Don't even bother with Zimmerman, as I commented on every aspect of gun violence and safety in that thread.

I came up with about 20 different threads when I searched for "gun laws" and "Wessex".  You've been part of almost every discussion, so I assume you simply discounted what I said.

No matter how hard you look or how hard you squint you won't find a single comment among the hundreds I've made about guns calling for guns to be outlawed or restricted to the military or government agents.  You will find me snapping back hard on people who claim that Obama is scheming with the UN to take away US citizen's guns, that he's cornered the market on ammo in advance of declaring martial law and taking over, but I never had to counter the claim that Cherry made yesterday that Obama actually *wants* more violence.  He's got his ear too close to Trump's mouth - or wherever - and willingly believes every lie he hears that attacks Obama.

I'm not always right and certainly not the most brilliant person I know, but it's sad to have to keep repeating myself to people like you and to have to keep "rebutting" claims by Cherry.  Make sense and I'll make nice.

Pete at Home

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #120 on: June 17, 2016, 09:38:59 AM »
So...ISIS hates Al Quaida and actively fights against them. Someone should pass that memo on to McCain.

It's not confusion, it's deliberate deception. They take every opportunity to latch the public's perception of ISIS onto the baggage of Al Qaeda, even though American foreign policy has in several instances outright allied itself with Al Qaeda in the last few years to deal with other groups. The Yemen civil war is a good instance of this, where 'allied' forces were fighting virtually alongside Al Qaeda to quash the Houthis.

Yes, but in other areas, Al Qaeda and ISIS are far more aligned and friendly to each other than we are with Al Qaeda in Yemen. 

To my knowledge, we aren't passing them weapons.

Like I said before, if arming and supporting murderous islamist regimes were what makes a president "Muslim," then Jimmy Carter was the last nonMuslim president.

D.W.

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #121 on: June 17, 2016, 10:26:58 AM »
AI you do seem to take attacks on Obama (and Hillary) personally.  It's like you feel that without you standing up to what others say everyone else reading here will believe what is written against them.

It's a bit silly IMO, but every once in awhile I learn something I didn't know.  The same can be said about criticism of them however.  I think you sell the community short on our ability to sift through B.S. for ourselves.

That criticism aside, the types of accusations slung at Obama here since he took office are beyond ridiculous.  He's far from without fault but the crazy *censored* that get's reposted here makes me often wonder if people are doing it only for humor, or the amusement they feel watching poor AI blow a gasket refuting what they say. 

Special shout out to cherry who when called out for passing along nutjob Obama fear mongering, doubles down.  Is there some accolade of encouragement that is the opposite of "Keepin' it real?"

AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #122 on: June 17, 2016, 11:21:18 AM »
Quote
AI you do seem to take attacks on Obama (and Hillary) personally.  It's like you feel that without you standing up to what others say everyone else reading here will believe what is written against them.

It's a bit silly IMO, but every once in awhile I learn something I didn't know.  The same can be said about criticism of them however.  I think you sell the community short on our ability to sift through B.S. for ourselves.
You're probably right, so I may owe a general apology to several others here who may be a bit frustrated with my "passion" on this issue.  Ringing the bell too often can dull the senses...

cherrypoptart

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #123 on: June 17, 2016, 11:38:21 AM »
I will say in my defense that before I doubled down I did admit that I and the anti-Obama sites I got my information from (and though I didn't say it specifically that includes talk radio because I've heard that quote there several times) took that quote 100% out of context and when put in context Obama actually has a very good idea there; one that I've supported myself.

One of the toughest things about getting a job right now is almost EVERY employer demands that you have a year or more of experience doing that job already. Now how are you supposed to get that experience if every employer is requiring you to already have it. If you are transitioning from another type of job then you are out of luck. Being a forest firefighter is a good example. There are always job listing up for them on government websites but they require experience. How does that make any sense? Where can you possibly be reasonably expected to get experience with that? Who is going to give you the initial training you need specifically on fighting forest fires. There's a good example of where the government can train you to do the job in return for a commitment of a few years where you actually do it while working for the government. And there are plenty more examples exactly like that, for instance with segments of the renewable energy industry. Or communications. Or even healthcare. Train. Serve. Use the experience and training to get a private sector job or re-up in the civil service. Anyway I think that's more than an admission of my mistake and that Obama was right. Calling him out on his failure to act on that great idea and for his many other lies doesn't take away from me admitting I was wrong when I was though. And yes I will wear that admission as a badge of honor because you see it so rarely on the internet.

"Al - No matter how hard you look or how hard you squint you won't find a single comment among the hundreds I've made about guns calling for guns to be outlawed or restricted to the military or government agents."

If you focus on the militia part of the 2nd Amendment then who is supposed to be organizing this militia? If it is the state or even more local government then those are still government agents isn't it?

If you know one of the Army recruiting slogans, it is an "Army of One."

Maybe along the same lines and in accordance with the Heller decision you could have a "militia of one".

D.W.

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #124 on: June 17, 2016, 11:46:29 AM »
My suggestion cherry is that if a quote sounds too outrageous to be true, it's almost always because it's taken out of context or is a flat out lie.

The total lack of skepticism for "dirt" on a political opponent does nothing but discredit legitimate criticism.  It's not that you parroted this or trusted the wrong sources.  It's that you saw something I would classify as "too good to be true" (from the perspective of a political opponent) and ran with it.

Look that gift horse in the mouth.  Get freakin x-rays done on it.

True "gotcha" moments and smoking guns are rare.  Keep looking for them, but if you THINK you found one, understand, it's far more likely to be nothing than something.  The last thing we want is a boy who cried wolf situation.  Something I must say is now plausible when it comes to Hillary or Obama.  Both can now point to the unceasing onslaught of ridiculous accusations and use it to obfuscate actual wrongdoing if they were (are) so inclined. 

A large portion of the public is already dismissive of political scandals involving these two.  Not because of party loyalty or hero worship, but because the Republican slander machine has promised spectacle countless times and disappointed the mob over and over.

To be fair, I shouldn't put all the blame on the GOP.  The media LOVES scandal, because the people love scandal.  We love to see the powerful brought low.  Because of this, the more ridiculous a claim is, the more attention it can get.  This skews the perception of the whole party towards it's most outrageous vocal members.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 11:55:36 AM by D.W. »

scifibum

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #125 on: June 17, 2016, 12:04:13 PM »
You're right, D.W., the media has given legs to birtherism and other scandals that had no credibility.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #126 on: June 17, 2016, 12:30:10 PM »
Obama gave legs to birtherism by refusing to do something so simple as release his birth certificate. There is still no reasonable explanation though for the files missing from the National Archives for the week of his birth that would have documented the flights into Hawaii at the time. Probably just a coincidence though. I wonder how many of those same exact types of records are also missing. It would be an even more interesting coincidence if those were the only such records missing and they were only for the week of his birth. Still nothing to see here though. Move along citizen and do not ask such questions.

On another note, it is gratifying when someone does agree with something I just posted here:

http://www.infowars.com/islamic-speaker-admits-killing-gays-is-a-belief-held-by-moderate-muslims/

"During a conference held in May 2013, Qureshi complained that the media often frames views such as “the death penalty for homosexuals” or the subjugation of women as only being held by radical Muslims.

“I always try to tell them that….these are general views that every Muslim actually has….every Muslim believes in these things,” says Qureshi.

Qureshi then asks the audience of Muslim attendees – black, white and Arab – to raise their hands if they agree with gender segregation and stoning women for adultery, as taught by the Koran.

Virtually every single ‘moderate’ Muslim in the room raises their hand to agree with these positions.

Qureshi then asks the audience if they go to “normal Sunni mosques in Norway.” Virtually everyone raises their hand in agreement once again.

“What are the politicians going to say now? What is the media going to say now? That we are all extremists? That we are all radicals? That we need to deport all of us from this country?” states Qureshi.

The chillingly ironic thing is of course that in trying to argue that most Muslims are not ‘radical extremists’, Qureshi only proves the point that so-called “moderate” Muslims do in fact hold radical, violent and extreme views about the treatment of women and homosexuals."

D.W.

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #127 on: June 17, 2016, 12:37:27 PM »
Quote
Obama gave legs to birtherism by refusing to do something so simple as release his birth certificate.

So you're Obama and his team.  A fringe group of the opposition floats this idea.  Do you, instantly refute it and provide proof?  I sure as hell wouldn't!  I'd act all sorts of suspicious.  Then once this builds up into a spectacle, I'd drop my truth bombs and make them all look like total fools. 

Childish?  Yes, but to start off your presidential run and be able to say, see how little legitimate criticism exists about me?  They had to invent this crazy pants on head stupid stuff to try and stop me.  Except he doesn't have to SAY it.  We all just know it.  This was someone thinking they found a smoking gun... and then proceeding to shoot themselves in the foot with it.

If we banned one religion, how long would it take before we were a nation which banned all religion or was a state sponsored religious theocracy?

As to your second point; a majority of people are religious.  Much like my point in another thread about the "illusion of safety" being needed, the concept that different religions can all live happily together is also an illusion they refuse to see shattered.  These are the people JUST intellectually honest enough to not want to crack down on a single religion because they know they wouldn't want others to judge their own religion harshly.  In attempting to avoid hypocrisy, they do tend to get a delicious mouth full of shoe now and then.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 12:46:18 PM by D.W. »

NobleHunter

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #128 on: June 17, 2016, 12:45:20 PM »
Quote
every Muslim believes in these things
False, I know Muslims who don't believe these things.

TheDrake

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #129 on: June 17, 2016, 01:06:39 PM »
"During a conference held in May 2013, Qureshi complained that the media often frames views such as “the death penalty for homosexuals” or the subjugation of women as only being held by radical Muslims.

“I always try to tell them that….these are general views that every Muslim actually has….every Muslim believes in these things,” says Qureshi.

Where do I even begin with a critique of this "evidence"? It was a conference of people who had signed on to Qureshi's site, and people they brought, not some random sampling of Imams or muslims. Then there's the bias evident in a "show of hands". Imagine you're the only one in that bunch not agreeing...

Here's another narrative, radical islamist gets up in front of a group of radicals or near-radicals and they all claim to speak for moderate Islam to legitimize themselves. Luckily, we can thank the internet for helping them find their target audience as the video gets passed around.

Meanwhile, there are five Muslim countries where being gay is not even a crime, let alone putting them to death. These are Mali, Jordan, Indonesia, Turkey, and Albania.

Now, it is certainly true that the vast majority of Muslims think that homosexuality is morally wrong. And half of British Muslims have been proven in polling to think that homosexuality should be illegal. This, as opposed to 11% of all people surveyed. They've got some learning to do, but to characterize this as "most muslims think all gays should die" is a vast overreach.

American muslims skew more pro-gay, where 45% approve of homosexuality, which seems low until you compare this to 36% of Evangelical Christians.

The poll numbers are from pew reasearch, the five Muslim countries were referenced by islamand homosexuality.com

cherrypoptart

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #130 on: June 17, 2016, 01:15:06 PM »
A Chinese immigrant's perspective:

http://www.infowars.com/chinese-immigrant-defies-obamas-executive-gun-grab-i-wont-be-a-slave-here-too/

“I am a Chinese immigrant and an American citizen by choice. I once was a slave before and I will never be one again,” Williams wrote.

“If you believe more gun control by your government is going to save lives, you are being naïve. The champion of all the mass killings in this world is always a tyrannical government.”

Williams went on to point out the thousands of unarmed students killed during the Tienanmen square massacre, promising to defy the president and “his pen.”

“Where I came from, China had killed thousands of the students by its own government during the massacre of Tian An Men square in 1989. I surely wish my fellow Chinese citizens back then had guns like this one I am holding in the picture,” she wrote.

“I will always stand with my AR, no matter what my President signs with his pen.”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again it's nice to see someone else agreeing with me. I'm beginning to get a greater appreciation for why some people love living in an echo chamber.

AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #131 on: June 17, 2016, 01:39:41 PM »
Quote
Again it's nice to see someone else agreeing with me.
There's at least one person for everybody.  Try this google search: "obama space alien" and see which if any of these people's opinions you agree with.

DJQuag

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #132 on: June 17, 2016, 03:44:19 PM »
Pete

I never denied that his religion was the main cause of his self hatred. I wouldn't at all be surprised if it was the root of it. What I said was that this wasn't motivated by ISIS inspired, anti West terrorism. The man hated gays.

And yes, I'm quite comfortable saying that if someone targets a gay club, they're doing it to kill gays. And...some people go to dance clubs to dance. Other people go to hook up. They function well for both.

Pete at Home

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #133 on: June 17, 2016, 07:21:51 PM »
I never denied that his religion was the main cause of his self hatred. I wouldn't at all be surprised if it was the root of it. What I said was that this wasn't motivated by ISIS inspired, anti West terrorism.

ISIS inspired, anti-West terrorism is a religious rite, if you understand the Koranic passages involved.  Any Muslim who believes ISIS is the promised Califate, is bound by religious duty to do what he did. 

The usual suspect here will pretend that I said that all Muslims are the same, and I didn't.  Most Muslims, thank heavens, do NOT believe that ISIS is Allah's promised Califate.


Quote
And yes, I'm quite comfortable saying that if someone targets a gay club, they're doing it to kill gays.


I didn't say otherwise.  I said that he didn't "exclusively" target gays.

"some people go to dance clubs to dance. Other people go to hook up. They function well for both."

I know.  Also to socialize, to offer support on birthdays, anniversaries, parties, etc.  Given that our executive has placed his head in the sand, I won't dare set foot in one of those again. 

I suspect that you agree with me that gun control would not have made a difference here.  Without guns, he could have done a little internet reading and made a trip to the hardware store, and there would have been far more casualties.

D.W.

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #134 on: June 17, 2016, 08:46:51 PM »
Just noticed an edit I tried to put into one post ended up in the next post of mine...   Was wondering where that went.  In case the "If we banned one religion, how long would it take before we were a nation which banned all religion or was a state sponsored religious theocracy?"  Didn't make any damn sense in that context.  :P

Pete at Home

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #135 on: June 18, 2016, 09:11:47 AM »
Just noticed an edit I tried to put into one post ended up in the next post of mine...   Was wondering where that went.  In case the "If we banned one religion, how long would it take before we were a nation which banned all religion or was a state sponsored religious theocracy?"  Didn't make any damn sense in that context.  :P

Naziism was a religion (Hitler, Goebbels, and the Hitler Youth explicitly said it was), and we fought it without banning it, and yet no out the closet Nazi could ever get elected in America and I'm pretty sure we would not let them immigrate either. 

cherrypoptart

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #136 on: June 18, 2016, 09:17:47 AM »
We banned the Japanese from worshiping their god, the Emperor.  And whatever you want to say about him at least there is no doubt he is real.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #137 on: June 18, 2016, 06:41:00 PM »
Gays face violence, persecution, and hate from liberals and other gays for supporting Trump.

http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/lgbtrump-gay-men-voting-donald-trump-n594691

"

Following Sunday's mass shooting at an Orlando gay bar, presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump has voiced - and tweeted - his support for the LGBTQ community. And some in the community have expressed their support for Trump.

"He's the most pro-gay nominee that the party has ever had for president," according to Gregory T. Angelo, president of the Log Cabin Republicans, an organization for LGBTQ people and straight allies who support the GOP.
""He's the most pro-gay nominee that the party has ever had for president.""

LGBTQ voters, however, overwhelmingly lean Democratic. Exit polls from the 2012 election found 76 percent of voters who identified as gay voted for Barack Obama, while only 22 percent voted for Mitt Romney. In 2014, a gallup poll showed more than 60 percent of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender voters identified as Democrats, and a May 2016 poll found 84 percent of likely LGBTQ voters preferred Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump.

Related: #AskTheGays: Trump Comment Triggers Twitter Backlash

Trump may see an opportunity to bring more LGBTQ voters into the Republican column, and recent remarks he has made signal a move to court the community. While many other Republican politicians failed to acknowledge the LGBTQ community in their reactions to the Orlando shooting, for example, Trump was one of the few exceptions.

In a speech about national security just a day after the attack, he said "Our nation stands together in solidarity with the members of Orlando's LGBT Community." He then called the attack "an assault on the ability of free people to live their lives, love who they want, and express their identity."

Trump then took to Twitter and criticized Hillary Clinton in an appeal to LGBTQ voters.

A number of gay men who have decided to throw their support behind Trump told NBC OUT it has not been an easy road. Juan Hernandez, a gay and Latino member of the Log Cabin Republicans, said his support led to physical violence by anti-Trump protesters at a rally in San Jose. Images of the attack and his bloodied clothes went viral.

"This is politics. Debate is OK," Hernandez said. "When you start getting violent and throwing out derogatory terms, that's not OK."

Hernandez, who switched to the GOP after realizing his views outside of LGBTQ issues were more conservative, said he was a target even before the rally in San Jose. Other members of the LGBTQ and Latino communities, he said, have singled him out for his Trump support. "They'll email me or send me messages. They say that I'm a sellout," he explained.

Eric, a 25-year-old gay Marine Corps veteran, was a Trump supporter before the Orlando shooting, but he said the attack - and the dangers he believes "radical Islam" poses to the gay community - has reinforced his support.

"Donald Trump has taken charge," he said." I'm gonna go for his stance on immigration and rebuilding the military."

But while Eric is a vocal Trump supporter, he declined to provide his last name due to fear of violence or "doxxing," the malicious publication of a private citizen's personal information online.

""It's easy to come out of the closet ... It's dangerous to come out as a Trump supporter.""

"When you put your name out on a national level as supporting someone who attracts that much vitriol and disgust, you're putting yourself up for doxxing ... Especially for someone like me who's considered a 'traitor,'" added Eric, who is a member of LGBTrump, an online network for LGBTQ people who support the GOP presidential hopeful."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hypocrites, as usual. But par for the course when it comes to the left and "tolerance".

The left has made it clear that they believe in the right to love the person you want but not the right to vote for the politician you love, especially not if he's the gorgeous tiny-handed modern day Adonis named Trump people all over the world know and love.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbM6WbUw7Bs

AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #138 on: June 18, 2016, 08:25:48 PM »
One day I would like to visit your world.  It's like nothing I've ever seen or experienced :)

cherrypoptart

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #139 on: June 18, 2016, 08:59:38 PM »
It's kind of funny you mention that. It's not the first time I've had that kind of reaction. The way I like to put it is just be grateful then that you are getting only a very small sampling of the many "outside the box" thoughts I experience constantly. Just imagine if you had to live in my mind all the time like I do. It might drive a lesser man insane.  ;D

cherrypoptart

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #140 on: June 18, 2016, 10:14:52 PM »
This author makes a compelling argument against the myth of the lone wolf terrorist and how it's more like a wolf pack.

http://nypost.com/2016/06/18/why-the-lone-wolf-terrorist-is-a-myth/

One thing you have to wonder is if this terrorist was divesting himself of real estate, did the relatives he gave it to really no have any suspicions as to why?

AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #141 on: June 20, 2016, 06:29:12 AM »
None of that means he didn't act completely in a self-driven way.  Timothy McVeigh wasn't a lone wolf by this logic, either, nor were George Zimmerman or Dyllan Roof, since their actions were extensions of attitudes shared by many others.  The article just tries to churn up yet another conspiracy theory that will appeal to people who already are suspicious that there are dark cabals of evil Muslim actors lurking unseen.  You're one of the faithful, so this was aimed at you and hits the target.

D.W.

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #142 on: June 20, 2016, 08:54:45 AM »
Not to re-open a whole can of worms but why include George Zimmerman there?  Never did I here it suggested he was a terrorist of any sort, he killed a single person, and was found not guilty of murder.  I can understand a pro-gun control position noting his case as something that should be taken into consideration... but just slapping him between those two names?  Wow...

AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #143 on: June 20, 2016, 09:05:37 AM »
Just to make the point that he wasn't sui generis, else he wouldn't have had the popular support from a segment of the population that instantly assumed and insisted that it was all Martin's fault.  It's very unlikely that he didn't know people who shared his attitudes toward blacks.

D.W.

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #144 on: June 20, 2016, 09:36:13 AM »
So his "popular support" was all racially motivated?  Or you just enjoy floating out a statement that implies it without stating it plainly so you can backtrack on it later when someone calls you out on the complete and utter bull excrement that it is?

This is why people mock "common sense" gun laws.  When it comes to firearm violence far too many people loose all traces of common sense when the subject comes up.  I'll give you the benefit of doubt, because I've been reading your posts here for ages now, and hope you are being intentionally inflammatory as a tactic.

AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #145 on: June 20, 2016, 09:41:36 AM »
So his "popular support" was all racially motivated?  Or you just enjoy floating out a statement that implies it without stating it plainly so you can backtrack on it later when someone calls you out on the complete and utter bull excrement that it is?

This is why people mock "common sense" gun laws.  When it comes to firearm violence far too many people loose all traces of common sense when the subject comes up.  I'll give you the benefit of doubt, because I've been reading your posts here for ages now, and hope you are being intentionally inflammatory as a tactic.
Call me out on what?  The argument against the "lone wolf" theory allows for multiple causes with a core of shared attitudes.  Zimmerman was instantly supported by gun rights people, but the suspicion by a lot of his supporters - before evidence - that Martin *had* to be up to no good was not based on the fact that he was wandering around, but that he was skulking while black.  Sorry if that doesn't make any sense to you.

D.W.

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #146 on: June 20, 2016, 09:50:44 AM »
Oh no, it makes sense.  All gun rights advocates are racists.  We called for people to chill out and not condemn GZ and tried to explain that he could very well have been within his rights... but that was just cover for our racists tendencies.  Makes perfect sense.

I guess innocent until proven guilty is only for... well never mind, it's probably just a lost concept today.

Listen, I get that there are some people who fit what you've outlined.  Your gross oversimplification is the BS.  With so many legitimate arguments for gun control out there, this line of reasoning all but insures we will change nothing.

Lumping a man found not guilty, of "A" shooting, in with domestic terrorists... Just wow...

AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #147 on: June 20, 2016, 09:57:52 AM »
Quote
I guess innocent until proven guilty is only for... well never mind, it's probably just a lost concept today.
What about a presumption about Martin?  Since he's dead, we'll never know what he was doing when GZ spotted and confronted him or what his side of the story would be.  I'm not saying that GZ killed him with malice or for no justifiable reason (at least not right here right now), but you can't deny that Martin was completely vilified and in effect accused and convicted in a certain segment of the public mind.  You can ask yourself why all those people drew that immediate unshakable conclusion, or not.

D.W.

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #148 on: June 20, 2016, 10:04:06 AM »
And now the net you cast is tightened up a bit and you approach safe ground again. 

P.S.  Quit making me defend such a horrible human being.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 10:11:12 AM by D.W. »

AI Wessex

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Re: Orlando massacre
« Reply #149 on: June 20, 2016, 10:51:46 AM »
I didn't know we were going to have this discussion ;(.  I'm not at all anxious to revisit it, either.