Author Topic: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?  (Read 12272 times)

LetterRip

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To me it is clearly a political ploy to attract votes and is in no way sincere.  The fact that Christian leadership is willing to play along has made me lose a lot of respect.  The fact that Christians might actually fall for this is extremely depressing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/us/politics/a-born-again-donald-trump-believe-it-evangelical-leader-says.html

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2016, 01:10:09 AM »
To me it is clearly a political ploy to attract votes and is in no way sincere.  The fact that Christian leadership is willing to play along has made me lose a lot of respect.  The fact that Christians might actually fall for this is extremely depressing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/us/politics/a-born-again-donald-trump-believe-it-evangelical-leader-says.html

Dobson isn't not a religious leader but political power-broker like the Borgia and Giuliano popes.  I don't know Trump's heart and I can't rule out a conversion, but I'd hardly take Dobson's word for it.  I'd much rather elect an honest Atheist that I trust to respect my religious freedoms and to govern the country, than a blowhard that waves around religion as part of their campaigning. 

I believe that ultimately for Trump, that a genuine relationship with Christ would make more difference than becoming president.  (Mark 8:36: And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul?)  But that has nothing to do with the election.  Nor does Hillary's status as a Methodist which I heard her proclaiming loudly to cameras.

TheDeamon

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2016, 07:47:12 AM »
Donald Trump would no longer be Donald Trump if he truly found Jesus. Unless we're talking one of televangelist(or comparable) options, in which case he might have written a big enough check to buy a dispensation from someone claiming authority from Christ.

AI Wessex

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2016, 08:15:35 AM »
I think he's willing, but he would first want to know what's in it for him.

TheDeamon

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2016, 09:53:28 AM »
I think he's willing, but he would first want to know what's in it for him.

More votes he doesn't actually want. So claiming to "find Jesus" and then utterly botch it by going about business as usual(to sour them on him) is par for the course. He'll pick up more votes anyhow.

scifibum

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2016, 01:39:11 PM »
Those who are playing along with Trump aren't concerned about his sincerity, but with upholding the de facto religious test for office. 

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2016, 02:14:55 PM »
Those who are playing along with Trump aren't concerned about his sincerity, but with upholding the de facto religious test for office.

Not for office.  For candidacy in the Republican or Democratic party.

Bernie could have won, and he has no religion.  He isn't atheist, but he never claimed any religious belief in order to establish candidacy.

Fenring

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2016, 02:15:58 PM »
The idea that Trump has just found Jesus is beyond ludicrous. I can't believe anyone falls for this kind of foolishness. Like scifi said, it's about mandatory political checkmarks, and strictly in terms of that I can't fault Trump as the fault lies in the system rather than how he successfully navigates through it. Blame the game rules, not the players.

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2016, 04:41:56 PM »
The idea that Trump has just found Jesus is beyond ludicrous.

The more accurate question (from a New Testament point of view) is whether Jesus has found Trump, since Jesus is the one that stands at the door and knocks (but not in the Vince Gilligan sense).   

It seems unlikely, but my own understanding of Christianity precludes denying the possibility that ANYONE could covert.  To me, what's ludicrous is the combined notion that (1) Trump has truly converted, (2) Upon conversion has felt the need to get the approval of James Dobson, and (3) that this should change the way that I vote. :)

In matters of religion, sincerity and truth are not exactly the same thing, either.

If I was going to vote for Trump before this I would still vote for Trump.  Since I wasn't, I'm not.

Wayward Son

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2016, 06:56:24 PM »
For the record, it is interesting to see what James Dobson wrote about Bill Clinton in the 1990s.

Quote
How did our beloved nation find itself in this sorry mess? I believe it began not with the Lewinsky affair, but many years earlier. There was plenty of evidence during the first Presidential election that Bill Clinton had a moral problem. His affair with Gennifer Flowers, which he now admits to having lied about, was rationalized by the American people. He lied about dodging the draft, and then concocted an incredulous explanation that changed his story.  He visited the Soviet Union and other hostile countries during the Vietnam War, claiming that he was only an “observer.” Numerous sources reported that he organized and participated in anti-war rallies in the United States, Great Britain, and Norway. Clinton evaded questions about whether he had used marijuana, and then finally offered his now-infamous “I didn’t inhale” response. There were other indications that Bill Clinton was untruthful and immoral. Why, then, did the American people ignore so many red flags? Because, and I want to give the greatest emphasis to this point, the mainstream media became enamored with Bill Clinton in 1992 and sought to convince the American people that “character doesn’t matter...”

As it turns out, character DOES matter. You can’t run a family, let alone a country, without it. How foolish to believe that a person who lacks honesty and moral integrity is qualified to lead a nation and the world! Nevertheless, our people continue to say that the President is doing a good job even if they don’t respect him personally. Those two positions are fundamentally incompatible. In the Book of James the question is posed, “Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring” (James 3:11 NIV). The answer is no.
(Emphasis from link.)

I guess character doesn't matter as much now. :)

Greg Davidson

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2016, 12:17:31 AM »
Wow, I just made the same reference to this James Dobson meme in the Smoking Gun thread

Greg Davidson

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2016, 12:18:36 AM »
Easy way to determine the Christianity that Trump has found: ask him how he has sinned.

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2016, 03:02:45 AM »
 I exoriated Dobson above, but Wayward's head-in-ass argument against Dobson, and a bit of corrective research, makes me think that maybe I was too hard on the man.  Wayward, here's your quote with the emphasis fixed to answer your question:

For the record, it is interesting to see what James Dobson wrote about Bill Clinton in the 1990s.

Quote
How did our beloved nation find itself in this sorry mess? I believe it began not with the Lewinsky affair, but many years earlier. There was plenty of evidence during the first Presidential election that Bill Clinton had a moral problem. His affair with Gennifer Flowers, which he now admits to having lied about, was rationalized by the American people. He lied about dodging the draft, and then concocted an incredulous explanation that changed his story.  He visited the Soviet Union and other hostile countries during the Vietnam War, claiming that he was only an “observer.” Numerous sources reported that he organized and participated in anti-war rallies in the United States, Great Britain, and Norway. Clinton evaded questions about whether he had used marijuana, and then finally offered his now-infamous “I didn’t inhale” response. There were other indications that Bill Clinton was untruthful and immoral. Why, then, did the American people ignore so many red flags? Because, and I want to give the greatest emphasis to this point, the mainstream media became enamored with Bill Clinton in 1992 and sought to convince the American people that “character doesn’t matter...”

As it turns out, character DOES matter. You can’t run a family, let alone a country, without it. How foolish to believe that a person who lacks honesty and moral integrity is qualified to lead a nation and the world! Nevertheless, our people continue to say that the President is doing a good job even if they don’t respect him personally. Those two positions are fundamentally incompatible. In the Book of James the question is posed, “Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring” (James 3:11 NIV). The answer is no.
(Emphasis from link.)

I guess character doesn't matter as much now. :)

Remind me, where did Trump lie about his affairs?  When did he perjure himself in court?

What Dobson says in YOUR quote, is that Clinton's main problem isn't so much where he sticks his penis, but rather his tendency to lie about it.  Just as King David's greatest sin wasn't adultery, but the lies and murder that he carried though to cover it up.  That's more reasonableness and sophistication than I ever gave Dobson credit for.

I defy you to show me ANYTHING that Trump has done so morally repugnant as to perjure himself in court, while holding an attorney's bar license in good standing and as a President of the United States of America, not for the good of the country, but to cover up a meaningless sexual liaison. 

 If you fixate on the boinking and ignore the perjury aspect of Clinton's immorality, how are you any better than the fundamentalist morons that say that the sin of Sodom was consensual homosexuality rather than gang rape, or those that say that the sin of Onan was spilling sacred spermies on the ground rather than literally screwing his widowed sister in law out of her inheritance?  If you don't grasp that cowardly oathbreaking is immoral, what sort of man are you?  Generation of vipers!

Dobson is kinder than I am to Clinton and pulls his punches.  I would go a step farther and say that in the Kosovo war, Clinton out Davided King David, and decreed the deaths of thousands in Kosovo and Serbia to distract us from the sloppy wet stain on his honor.

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2016, 03:21:42 AM »
Easy way to determine the Christianity that Trump has found: ask him how he has sinned.

I love it when non-Christians come up with these duck quackery with dunking tests and definitions of Christianity, and this is at least the second time that you've dipped into this sort of stupidity, Greg.  The last time I remembered was when you said that idiocy about Jesus' remarks on divorce and marriage from the Sermon on the Mount being some litmus test on whether someone is a Christian or not.  That was months ago and that was idiotic and insulting enough to sear into the memory of any Christian who has made any consistent effort at studying the scriptures.  Please educate yourself before you pronounce any more of these litmus test fatwas.  If things were as simple as you seem to believe, then there would only be one sect of Christianity.  In other matters you tend to be much more reasonable. Please, next time you feel the impulse to boil Christianity or how to discern a Christian down to something so simple and banal, please think twice about it and avoid farting in the express elevator to the dismay and disgust of folks that might otherwise treat you with the respect that you usually but not always deserve.

As for the question of discerning true Christians from pious Frauds, Jesus told his apostles (folks who were said to have gifts to cast out devils and understand the babble of folks speaking in tongues) not even to bother to try to discern hypocrisy during this lifetime:

* Matthew 13:24-30  parable of the wheat and the tares.  Tares look just like wheat until the time of harvest, Jesus said.  Don't you try to discern, let the angels do the separating at judgment time.
* Matthew 25:34-44 Separation of the sheep and the goats.  At the Judgment, many of the hypocrites will be so self-deceived in their phony act of pseudo Christian piety that they will find it a terrible surprise to find they are damned, unable to enter God's presence.

Anyone who claims some sort of facile way of discerning a true Christian from a pretender is basically calling themselves bigger than Jesus.

Honestly, Greg, how would you feel if I invented some non-Torah litmus test by which folks ignorant of Judaism could determine, by asking someone a simple question, whether they were "really" a Jew?  It's not just silly; it's offensive.  Stop it.

------
*edited to add, by means of explanation:

The expression that if something "looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck" is a dicto simpliciter falacy.

 Any animal that does not belong in the Anatidae family, is not a duck, period, regardless of whether it "looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and/or quacks like a duck."
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 03:28:46 AM by Pete at Home »

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2016, 03:33:06 AM »
In response to any hypothetical jackass that might pretend that I just argued that someone should vote for Trump, just because he hasn't AFAIK done anything quite as immoral as Clinton's perjuring himself in court to save himself from public embarrassment, no, I did not say that.  Bernie Sanders seems to me the most moral and honest candidate available here.  Neither Christian nor as best I can tell, religious at all, but TRUSTWORTHY.  When did we last have a presidential candidate that didn't lie to us?

----
Edited to add: that last paragraph was NOT directed at Greg, who AFAIK has never indulged in that brand of Jackassery, to his credit.

AI Wessex

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2016, 04:29:02 AM »
Quote
When did we last have a presidential candidate that didn't lie to us?
Depends on what the meaning of "lie" is.  If a candidate espouses a sincere intent that he knows he won't be able to achieve when he says it, is that lying?  If he espouses a sincere intent and fails to deliver on it after taking office, is that lying?  It seems that many of the "lies" attributed to Obama are of the latter kind (e.g., closing Gitmo).

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2016, 04:56:08 AM »
Quote
When did we last have a presidential candidate that didn't lie to us?
Depends on what the meaning of "lie" is.

ROFL! Holy Shades of Clintonissimo, batman!  President Defininition- of-is doesn't hold a candle to that one.

Quote
It seems that many of the "lies" attributed to Obama are of the latter kind (e.g., closing Gitmo).

True but irrelevant.  I absolutely agree that most of the accusations that Obama lied (or that Bush lied, or even that Clinton lied) are of that kind.  Dubious or outright dishonest accusations of lying.

But that's irrelevant as an answer to my question when you don't even make the claim that Obama has *never* lied to us.  The question isn't whether all or most of the accusations against Obama are fair, but whether ANY of them are.  And I think you know, though I doubt you will admit, that Obama intentionally misled us at least once, for no other reason than to preserve his popularity by obscuring his position.  I'll happily concede that Obama lied far less than Bush Sr or Reagan.  But I doubt even an Obama apologist like Greg could say with a straight face that Obama is every bit as honest as Bernie Sanders.  You I'm not so sure about.  I've been shocked at what you can say with a straight face.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 05:03:49 AM by Pete at Home »

AI Wessex

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2016, 10:37:23 AM »
Quote
ROFL! Holy Shades of Clintonissimo, batman!  President Defininition- of-is doesn't hold a candle to that one.
Alas, you've lost your ironical-dar spectacles...

Quote
True but irrelevant.
...
But that's irrelevant as an answer to my question when you don't even make the claim that Obama has *never* lied to us.
Of course he lied, everybody lies sometimes.  My point (which I thought was both relevant and clear) was that calling Obama a liar about this or that very often has nothing at all to do with whether he actually lied.

As for Bernie, you missed my (perhaps too subtle) point.  I don't think Bernie thinks he can implement some of the policies he has taken a strong position on.  Even though he fervently believes we should provide free college tuition for every student, I doubt even he thinks the numbers add up.  So is he offering aspirational goals to the electorate or setting them up for a bait and switch?  One of those is what a minister might do, and the other is what a crooked politician or Trump-like candidate might do.

TheDeamon

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2016, 11:09:39 AM »
Even though he fervently believes we should provide free college tuition for every student, I doubt even he thinks the numbers add up.  So is he offering aspirational goals to the electorate or setting them up for a bait and switch?  One of those is what a minister might do, and the other is what a crooked politician or Trump-like candidate might do.

There probably were "footnotes" on that campaign goal, as I doubt he was talking about free tuition to Harvard. Free tuition to the University of Wyoming on the other hand(in state tuition appears to be $3,390/semester, another $1,256 in "other fees," plus books, etc).... Also, does that tuition include the other fees? What about room and board?

In many respects, he may have been talking about something more on the order of the post 9/11 GI BIll, which would pay their tuition bill in full up to the "In state tuition" cost for their "home state" for up to 36 months of full time instruction, with an allowance based on cost of living in that respective postal code.

It would be exceptionally expensive, even if he skipped on the allowance part and just covered tuition, but it is what it is.

Fenring

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2016, 11:20:39 AM »
I don't think Bernie thinks he can implement some of the policies he has taken a strong position on.  Even though he fervently believes we should provide free college tuition for every student, I doubt even he thinks the numbers add up.  So is he offering aspirational goals to the electorate or setting them up for a bait and switch?  One of those is what a minister might do, and the other is what a crooked politician or Trump-like candidate might do.

Since we've gone out of our way to school you on this exact issue I have to assume you're playing dumb here deliberately. It's a rather squirm-and-wriggle kind of strategy, because when I call you on it you'll make some excuse rather than own up that you knew it. Bernie campaign is based on the fact that he can't get these things done by himself, that he needs the people to petition the Congress to actually get much of it done. Maybe you missed the part about "revolution in the streets"; I guess the Clinton goggles have a sound filter as well.

D.W.

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2016, 11:29:07 AM »
If we decided as a nation that everyone should have higher education we can accomplish it within 10 years.  The need for brick and mortar colleges and high cost text books can already be reduced to a ridiculous fraction of the cost by current technology.  Broadband access, increased bandwidth, mobile/wireless internet, virtual reality and augmented reality will make it possible.

The only question is will our economy and the business of education let it happen?  Will the argument that we "need" or benefit in some way as a nation by having a poor less educated segment of the population win the day?

It's not that Bernie's plan is financially a long shot, it is culturally a long shot.  Higher education for all, would all but require the system to look different than it does now.

TheDeamon

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2016, 11:52:49 AM »
If we decided as a nation that everyone should have higher education we can accomplish it within 10 years.  The need for brick and mortar colleges and high cost text books can already be reduced to a ridiculous fraction of the cost by current technology.  Broadband access, increased bandwidth, mobile/wireless internet, virtual reality and augmented reality will make it possible.

The only question is will our economy and the business of education let it happen?  Will the argument that we "need" or benefit in some way as a nation by having a poor less educated segment of the population win the day?

I think this is one of those "It'll be addressed when robo/cyber-teacher becomes a viable option" for providing tailored education options on an individual basis, starting potentially as early as pre-kindergarten. But based on how some of the (justified) freakout over common-core has played out, that's another entirely different field to sort out.

I think the educational model we're currently using is fundamentally broken, and ultimately in many respects, the final form that will settle out will be some kind of hybrid from the present day with a lot of common elements from 200+ years ago with regards to specialized trades. Hopefully we don't revert to a caste system in the process(which is a large part of the hope for some hybridization with the modern process).

Honestly, much of High School is in most respects a waste for most people these days. Things may have changed a bit in the roughly 20 years since I graduated from High School, but my experience was that the only real difference between the "regular" class and the AP class was the speed at which the material was covered. It just happened that the AP students could get college credits for their efforts(and likely graded more harshly, as they'd be more likely to meet "higher standards" so failure to graduate wasn't a concern with them). While the regular students would end up needing to cover that same ground, once again, once they made it to college.

Of course, we also have the failing schools where many students will complete High School. Only to end up needing a remedial class before they even get to the class needed to check off their general education requirements. But that's also an indicator that the High School they were in proved itself to be largely meaningless in the mix of things.

And that is why I'm calling it a waste, not because the material wasn't needed, but because they're essentially (failing at) covering the same material, multiple times. Now some people need repetition in order for it to "sink in" but an education system that is largely structured on that is highly inefficient, in particular for those that "get it" on the earlier iterations.

If K-12 ever does get truly "fixed" and gets a meaningful overhaul in the process, I don't think it'd be unreasonable to expect it to be possible for people to walk out of High School with at least the current equivalent of an Associates Degree in one field or another(or be a very short list of courses away from one).

We don't need more people going to colleges, we need the (associate) college level education to be happening in the High Schools.

Fenring

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2016, 11:56:25 AM »
It's not that Bernie's plan is financially a long shot, it is culturally a long shot.  Higher education for all, would all but require the system to look different than it does now.

I agree with this completely. The one thing about Bernie's campaign that I liked is that he lists things he thinks are important and that he'll try to push for, but that ultimately it's not up to him but up to the people. If the people think there's a better solution then they can petition for that instead. Personally I'm not on board with the idea of everyone having higher education as it exists now; I think it's a waste of time and a needless money sink. I would be much happier with a parallel idea to the one Bernie proposes, where people get financed job training, such as trade school, or even things as mundane as using Windows and Excel so that average people who can't do office jobs could at least apply for that.

AI Wessex

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2016, 11:58:04 AM »
Quote
In many respects, he may have been talking about something more on the order of the post 9/11 GI BIll, which would pay their tuition bill in full up to the "In state tuition" cost for their "home state" for up to 36 months of full time instruction, with an allowance based on cost of living in that respective postal code.
Maybe, is there somewhere that he said what he meant he would do?

Quote
Since we've gone out of our way to school you on this exact issue I have to assume you're playing dumb here deliberately. It's a rather squirm-and-wriggle kind of strategy, because when I call you on it you'll make some excuse rather than own up that you knew it. Bernie campaign is based on the fact that he can't get these things done by himself, that he needs the people to petition the Congress to actually get much of it done. Maybe you missed the part about "revolution in the streets"; I guess the Clinton goggles have a sound filter as well.
I don't recall you schooling me, but I'm ok if you assume I'm playing dumb.  It would be interesting to ask his supporters if they believe he will achieve that goal and how long for it to happen.  Every President gets knocked for not finishing everything during their term (4 years, since they can't promise two terms) they promised they would do.  I recognize that Bernie is more of the aspirational leader type than the legislative policy type, but since you're feeling the Bern, how would you expect the political landscape to look by the time of his re-election bid in 2020?

Quote
We don't need more people going to colleges, we need the (associate) college level education to be happening in the High Schools.
This is the most critical point, IMO.  College educations aren't obsolete by any stretch, but does every graduate of a traditional college today find a job befitting their education?  There ought to be educational channels for various specialized professions that don't require the specialized training to take place after a 4 year degree is earned.  I say that as a firm believer in a liberal arts education for all (ref. the trivium and quaternium), but not everyone should be pushed through the same amount of it to the same level of proficiency and be called a failure for not succeeding at a high level.

D.W.

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2016, 12:04:31 PM »
I'm not sure AI.  I think there is a lot to be said for learning how to learn as a skill.  Over specialization in a rapidly changing business world could end up being very short term planning. 

AI Wessex

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2016, 12:30:30 PM »
I'm not sure AI.  I think there is a lot to be said for learning how to learn as a skill.  Over specialization in a rapidly changing business world could end up being very short term planning. 
You just 'splained what a liberal arts education is all about.  I got a BA in literature and philosophy but "applied" the analytical skills I learned to become a software developer.  The self-serving smug way to think about it is that if you learn how to learn you can learn a lot of things you never thought about, but you can't learn how to dunk.  I'm not sure exactly what that means, either, but I have lived by that code my whole adult life.  I just assume it will make sense one day.

Fenring

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2016, 12:36:51 PM »
I recognize that Bernie is more of the aspirational leader type than the legislative policy type, but since you're feeling the Bern, how would you expect the political landscape to look by the time of his re-election bid in 2020?

Assuming four years of President Clinton, it will look exactly as it does now. Assuming President Trump...I have no idea. If you mean what would happen under President Sanders, then I suspect he will have initiated moves on a few fronts but it all depends on which ones can gain snowball popularity, and that in turn depends on which way public opinion swings. I know his main political objectives are campaign finance reform and Wall Street reform, and I do think a bit of headway could be made in four years, but not all that much. But a bit is a still a start, and more importantly, it's a chance to further educate the public so that they can take their country back. I see more effort being put into these areas to begin with than into 'free education', at least in a first term. Nothing can really ever get done until campaign finance reform happens.

TheDeamon

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2016, 12:38:28 PM »
I'm not sure AI.  I think there is a lot to be said for learning how to learn as a skill.  Over specialization in a rapidly changing business world could end up being very short term planning.

If all we're concerned about is "learning how to learn" then what does a person need to go through K-12, a 4 year(now more commonly 5 year) year Bachelor Degree program, and then potentially pursue a Masters Degree, followed by a doctorate?

I'd generally say, and our current understanding of the human brain would tend to back this, that if you haven't figured out "how to learn" by the time you're in your 20's, you're either not going to, or you're not interested in doing so. In either case, continuing to feed you though the machinery isn't doing anything except padding the pocketbooks of the educational institutions involved.

The question then isn't "how much have you learned?" It should be "How much can you (learn to) use?"

D.W.

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2016, 12:43:17 PM »
I didn't mean to suggest that's all we should focus on.  Just that narrowly focused trade skill centered training has a shelf life.

TheDeamon

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2016, 01:07:34 PM »
I didn't mean to suggest that's all we should focus on.  Just that narrowly focused trade skill centered training has a shelf life.

Depends on the skill, but the prognostications on which skills those are often end up being wrong, or finding other issues. Carpentry is a rather broad generic skill set, many of its offshoots are now novelty trades at this point(not many Coopers or Cartwrights running around these days except as family names), and the ones that remain don't employ as many as they once did. Although the Homebuilders are still doing reasonably well(except for it getting flooded with illegal immigrant labor, depressing the market prices), (custom) Cabinet makers are still around, but they're more of a niche market than anything else, most are mass produced anymore. As reflected by the matter of their being "Custom Cabinet Makers" and not just "Cabinet Markers."

But that goes back to ensuring people retain a "generic tool set" as well as any specialization they may pursue. The trades are not the only ones that fall victim to this, people with Masters and Doctorates also fall prey to that.

NobleHunter

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2016, 01:25:58 PM »
The trades (carpenters, plumbers, electricians, et al.) seem to have taken what loses they're going to from automation. They seem to be doing pretty well, though I imagine the push for bachelor degrees helped keep the supply low.

The biggest problem with university education is that we've fixated on the idea that everyone needs to have one. That dilutes both the perceived value of a degree and its actual value. It's hard to get the skills imparted by a university program when half the people in the first half of the program are unsuited to it. And it's hard to convince anyone it means something when everybody and their dog seems to have a university degree.

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2016, 01:34:21 PM »
Thank you for correction on the irony.


Quote
True but irrelevant.
...
But that's irrelevant as an answer to my question when you don't even make the claim that Obama has *never* lied to us.
Of course he lied, everybody lies sometimes.  My point (which I thought was both relevant and clear) was that calling Obama a liar about this or that very often has nothing at all to do with whether he actually lied.

Often, yes, but not always.


As for Bernie, you missed my (perhaps too subtle) point.  I don't think Bernie thinks he can implement some of the policies he has taken a strong position on.  Even though he fervently believes we should provide free college tuition for every student, I doubt even he thinks the numbers add up.  So is he offering aspirational goals to the electorate or setting them up for a bait and switch?  One of those is what a minister might do, and the other is what a crooked politician or Trump-like candidate might do.

Aspirational goal.  The numbers don't add up to send everyone within the current system, and he's speaking about a different system. One which probably sends fewer kids to college and more kids to trade school, meaning more of them will have jobs.  Bingo. Democratic Socialism.  It costs less and it works better then this status quo fascism where big private groups with political approval milk the economy dry for bogus programs unlikely to make students employable.

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2016, 01:43:15 PM »
I recognize that Bernie is more of the aspirational leader type than the legislative policy type, but since you're feeling the Bern, how would you expect the political landscape to look by the time of his re-election bid in 2020?

Assuming four years of President Clinton, it will look exactly as it does now.

You're forgetting history here.  Obama is gentle.  While he fails to engage many opponents, he at least doesn't resort to violence to shut them down.  Clinton focused bombings on civillian radio transmitters and TV to keep the serbs from telling their story.  Even bombed the Chinese embassy when they started re-transmitting for the Serb government.  Remember all those American right wingers with guns out in Oregon?  Obama handled that peacefully and patiently, much to the frustration of some bloodthirsty lefty pundits.  Clinton would have watered the preserve with the blood of rightwad martyrs, and we would have had another Oklahoma City on our hands within a year.

Mrs. Clinton is right that the idea of Trump with his finger on the button is nervewracking compared to Obama, but even Trump seems less likely than a Clinton to nuke his own country.

TheDeamon

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2016, 01:59:28 PM »
The biggest problem with university education is that we've fixated on the idea that everyone needs to have one. That dilutes both the perceived value of a degree and its actual value. It's hard to get the skills imparted by a university program when half the people in the first half of the program are unsuited to it. And it's hard to convince anyone it means something when everybody and their dog seems to have a university degree.

Pretty much. Of course, you have multiple concurrent things going on:

1. You have more technology oriented work being done, which required a skilled and knowledgeable work force.
1.a. Highest level of education attained initially was used as a good indicator for this. A High School dropout in the 1980's had probably never seen a computer, much less used one. So high school diplomas start looking as a good baseline.

2. You have public systems turning into little more than "paper mills" putting the emphasis on graduating students, rather than ensuring the students actually learned anything. Thus devaluing the perceived worth of the High School Diploma.

Also, budgets being what they are...
2.a While high school students may have worked with computers at least "a little bit" by the 1990's, they still weren't being used for much.
2.b At the college level however, the use of computers was starting to become rather extensive by the mid 1990's, and students enrolled were taking courses to learn more about them and had used them to some degree.
2.c -- Basically, a standard was set in many cases due to what was a transitory situation, the typical 16 year today has probably done more with technology in their short life than the average 40 year old has ever done.

3. The High School Diploma becomes nearly worthless for many good paying (entry-level) jobs, because they've decided/discovered that "only university students have the (technical) skills needed" to perform well in this new computer-focused work environment.
3.a. And now, we start seeing the paper-mill universities start to pop up everywhere, as a large demand for enrollment at colleges and universities begins to unfold as the "echo-boom" starts to hit.

So now we're in market where the economy is literally flooded with people who have bachelors degrees they cannot use, either because technology rendered their target job obsolete entirely, or otherwise created "efficiencies"  which resulted in a reduction in the number of people needed.

While the increased number of (post-secondary) schools providing the relevant training increased considerably, giving us a glut of educated workers without work to do. Which has devalued the "worth" of the piece of paper they earned, often at the expense of several tens of thousands of dollars. Which is part of the problem if you listen to a lot of industry.

They're pushing college education, but college education on what? I know the stock liberal arts answer on this(as AI alludes to), and it is part of the problem(The Universities have their own political lobby, and it is usually the Liberal Arts crowd cheer leading it). In particular for much of the STEM associated industry.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 02:02:10 PM by TheDeamon »

NobleHunter

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2016, 02:21:54 PM »
The story I've been told about university degrees is that they used to be evidence a person could think and learn. So they got hired and trained even if their degree wasn't precisely on topic. Now companies are reluctant to invest that much money in a new hire so just having the degree (especially a liberal arts rather than a crunchier science or professional degree) isn't enough to get hired. Especially when so many people have university degrees that it's no longer a real indicator of ability or potential.

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2016, 02:43:19 PM »
For a person of wealth and privilege, a general education focusing on liberal arts is the absolute best way to teach someone to learn to use their resources and connections to build business and create wealth.


TheDeamon

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2016, 02:53:13 PM »
The story I've been told about university degrees is that they used to be evidence a person could think and learn. So they got hired and trained even if their degree wasn't precisely on topic. Now companies are reluctant to invest that much money in a new hire so just having the degree (especially a liberal arts rather than a crunchier science or professional degree) isn't enough to get hired. Especially when so many people have university degrees that it's no longer a real indicator of ability or potential.

I'm starting to think a lot of what happened, in particular during the 90's, was requirements for went way up due to technology becoming a bigger factor. As the only people who really had experience with technology at that point were the University Students, and that became the new threshold. Throw in a minimum wage hike and a few other things that increases the costs associated with hiring somebody, and they had self-reinforcing stereotype that held up long enough to become a standard practice which nobody challenged. Well, at least until the last few years.

Edit to add: As to your conclusion, yes. The University Degree used to set people apart from the herd, but when the rest of the herd has degrees as well...

Fenring

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2016, 03:01:47 PM »
You're forgetting history here.  Obama is gentle.

I meant specifically that the internal American system would remain exactly the same. Foreign affairs would likely be ruled with more of an iron fist, yes. If Hillary had her way a few more bloody affairs would have already happened by now. I can't tell if they ultimately didn't go through (like eliminating Assad) due to internal infighting or to external pressures (such as Putin's intervention).

Fenring

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2016, 03:08:15 PM »
For a person of wealth and privilege, a general education focusing on liberal arts is the absolute best way to teach someone to learn to use their resources and connections to build business and create wealth.

I would say it's the best way to teach someone to learn to use other people as resources and connections and build networks with which to amass wealth. This is certainly what the power-broker clubs in places like Yale are used for, where the actual 'education' is frankly trivial in utility to these people compared to the place being a stomping ground for big money.  Then again some of the most powerful men in America never went to college. 

If you meant just upper-middle class people, however, I would suggest that it really depends on what kind of major you're talking about. I don't think your description applies at all to anyone taking majors in the liberal arts in pretty much any topic unless they plan to go on to be experts (e.g. professors) in that field. But there is merit still in majors like business and in the professions. I knew several engineers, for instance, who double-majored in business administration because they knew it would be valuable for their careers. This is very good, but is quite different from the tens of thousands of students (or more) enrolled in subjects like English Lit, Social Studies, Poli sci, etc.

AI Wessex

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2016, 03:28:27 PM »
You guys are getting carried away with classist characterizations.  Most of the people I went to college with came from middle class backgrounds like mine and we all went off on our own into our own directions.  My roommate's father was a lawyer and he became a microbiologist.  A lot of people went into social work, some into medicine or science, but I don't recall all that many who were appendages to family wealth or privilege.  Since the top 1% is only 1% and far more college students graduate with BA's, you're looking at it from the wrong end of the microscope.  It is true that college grads generally have more income and wealth than non-grads, but that's the effect rather than the cause most of the time.

AI Wessex

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2016, 06:16:36 PM »
Quote
Bingo. Democratic Socialism.
That's loose buzz-chatter.  The US has a long history of trying to find people for jobs and jobs for people.  That's what public schools were originally supposed to do, as well as almost every social policy movement since then.  We're in an era that is different from any that came before and we need to prepare our next generation to come online with the same opportunities (but differently imagined) that we had growing up.

AI Wessex

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2016, 06:25:50 PM »
Here's a refreshingly retro take on the liberal arts vs targeted education tussle:
Quote
American undergraduates are flocking to business programs, and finding plenty of entry-level opportunities. But when businesses go hunting for CEOs or managers, “they will say, a couple of decades out, that I’m looking for a liberal arts grad,” said Judy Samuelson, executive director of the Aspen Institute’s Business and Society Program.

That presents a growing challenge to colleges and universities. Students are clamoring for degrees that will help them secure jobs in a shifting economy, but to succeed in the long term, they’ll require an education that allows them to grow, adapt, and contribute as citizens—and to build successful careers. And it’s why many schools are shaking up their curricula to ensure that undergraduate business majors receive something they may not even know they need—a rigorous liberal-arts education.

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2016, 11:35:38 PM »
You guys are getting carried away with classist characterizations.  Most of the people I went to college with came from middle class backgrounds like mine and we all went off on our own into our own directions.  My roommate's father was a lawyer and he became a microbiologist.  A lot of people went into social work, some into medicine or science, but I don't recall all that many who were appendages to family wealth or privilege.  Since the top 1% is only 1% and far more college students graduate with BA's, you're looking at it from the wrong end of the microscope.  It is true that college grads generally have more income and wealth than non-grads, but that's the effect rather than the cause most of the time.

Not sure how what you said contradicts any of my classist characterizations.  "college grads generally have more income and wealth than non-grads, but that's the effect rather than the cause most of the time."  Exactly my point. 

Liberal Arts majors ARE the most adept at creating business, running organizations, etc., just like you said above, and they are shut out of jobs for precisely that reason, because those with the power to hire don't want to hire their future competition.  That's why I said, if you  have family and friends in America's oligarchy, then major in liberal arts.  Otherwise major in microbiology or niche work that doesn't make the olygarchs feel like you threaten them, because you aspire to be the arm or the little toe rather than the head.

Unconnected people who major in liberal arts are at risk of ending up like me.  Cassandra syndrome.  Or they start revolutions.  But that's not my style.

Greg Davidson

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2016, 01:42:18 AM »
Pete:

Quote
this is at least the second time that you've dipped into this sort of stupidity, Greg.  The last time I remembered was when you said that idiocy about Jesus' remarks on divorce and marriage from the Sermon on the Mount being some litmus test on whether someone is a Christian or not.  That was months ago and that was idiotic and insulting enough to sear into the memory of any Christian who has made any consistent effort at studying the scriptures

Wrong attribution of the second quote - I never said anything about the Sermon on the Mount etc. (I know, I sometimes get confused over who said something months ago).

As for the confession of sins, my comment wasn't in a Catholic way, it was more that Trump appears to be incapable of ever admitting fault, and so across a wide array of different sets of Christian practices it would be hard for a man so devoid of humility to fit in well.  I was not proposing a litmus test, I was just noting the contrast.

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2016, 01:57:03 AM »
Pete:

Quote
this is at least the second time that you've dipped into this sort of stupidity, Greg.  The last time I remembered was when you said that idiocy about Jesus' remarks on divorce and marriage from the Sermon on the Mount being some litmus test on whether someone is a Christian or not.  That was months ago and that was idiotic and insulting enough to sear into the memory of any Christian who has made any consistent effort at studying the scriptures

Wrong attribution of the second quote - I never said anything about the Sermon on the Mount etc. (I know, I sometimes get confused over who said something months ago).

You didn't mention the Sermon on the Mount by name but I believe you claimed that no divorcing was some sort of central litmus test for Christianity, which is IIRC a SotM teaching.  I'll check the history and if I've misattributed, I owe you an apology.



Quote
As for the confession of sins, my comment wasn't in a Catholic way, it was more that Trump appears to be incapable of ever admitting fault, and so across a wide array of different sets of Christian practices it would be hard for a man so devoid of humility to fit in well.  I was not proposing a litmus test, I was just noting the contrast.

In that case I share your impression, Greg, and apologize for misunderstanding you.  I had to facepalm myself during the pope incident when Trump boasted his "pride" in being a Christian.  :-[  :o ???

NobleHunter

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2016, 12:31:12 PM »
He probably "joined" one of the sects that skips over the bit about praying on street corners.

rightleft22

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2016, 01:53:44 PM »
I suspect Trump would authentically apply the label Christian to himself but doubt he would pursue the question any deeper than the label.  - You are what you label yourself – everything tweeted is true… unless you don’t like it.

Trump may also believe that he wants to be President and not just win the label president… I doubt he understands there is a difference.

Greg Davidson

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2016, 12:55:55 AM »
Pete, you will also find it wasn't me who made any association with divorcing or not divorcing and Christianity. And as I said, it is sometimes hard to remember who said what so many months ago. 

Pete at Home

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2016, 01:02:12 AM »
Pete, you will also find it wasn't me who made any association with divorcing or not divorcing and Christianity. And as I said, it is sometimes hard to remember who said what so many months ago.

Thank you for clarifying and for saving me the look-up.  My apologies, and thank you for your polite reply to my unfair accusation.

AI Wessex

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Re: Do you think Trump has really 'found Jesus' on the campaign trail?
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2016, 04:24:26 AM »
The title of this thread asks if you think Trump really found Jesus on the campaign trail. How about finding politics?
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The party that never stops telling us how awful Obama is for playing golf is about to nominate a presidential candidate who not only owns golf courses, and who not only interrupted his campaign for an overseas golf course photo op, but who also plans to appear (apparently for a full hour) on the Golf Channel on Monday, the first night of the Republican convention.../quote]