Author Topic: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show  (Read 8896 times)

JoshuaD

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The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« on: December 14, 2015, 01:25:03 AM »
Anyone excited for this? The book series has been great. Scifi released the first episode online, for free.

Youtube.

No one looks the way I expected except Naomi, but I really liked it anyway. It's strange that they've got Avasarala in the first season (I don't think she was around until the second book) but that makes some sense to me. The big influx of new characters in the second book was offputting, at first. They probably want to avoid that.

msquared

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2015, 02:13:10 PM »
It seems to be very well done.  Tom and I were both involved with the original Play by Post game run by one of the authors.  Tom's character was Holden. Mine did not make the cut for the book or the movie.   :'(

msquared

JoshuaD

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2015, 03:59:32 PM »
Matt better get his act together and start writing. Breeze & Co were made for the big screen.

msquared

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2015, 06:01:19 PM »
I thought we would call it "Matias saves the World".

msquared

Seriati

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2015, 06:17:28 PM »
I've seen a billboard for this but it didn't really appeal.  Anyone able to do a spoiler free nutshell?

msquared

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2015, 07:50:55 AM »
Space opera at it's best.  Started as a Play by Post game using the D20 game system.  DM, Ty Frank, then went to work for George RR Martin and worked with Daniel Abraham and they co wrote the book (now series) and it got picked up for the TV series.  Game ran about 10 years ago.

msquared

JoshuaD

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2015, 01:29:19 PM »
I've seen a billboard for this but it didn't really appeal.  Anyone able to do a spoiler free nutshell?

Humans are in the early stages of space exploration: they have gained access to the solar system but not to other solar systems or galaxies. Factions have arisen and are opposed to one another: Earth and Luna; Mars; and the people born and living in the Asteroid Belt and on the moons of the outer planets.

The main story follows a burned out detective trying to find a rich Earther's daughter in the belt, and a young captain who, through bad luck and his ideals of open information, thrusts himself into the middle of a solar-system wide power struggle and mystery.

There is a lot more too it than that (it goes beyond traditional scifi into the horror genres) but if I say anything more, I will spoil a lot.

I loved the books. Five have come out so far, and they're still being written.  I hope the TV show does them justice.


cherrypoptart

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2022, 03:18:30 PM »
Season 6 is finished now so I'm all caught up on the books and the tv series. It's just interesting seeing a more realistic version of science fiction without faster than light travel or force fields. I don't know what to say about it without spoiling things but it's worth a look-see. I do like when they make what the "bad guys" are fighting for seem like it's not just pure evil but more of a matter of perspective.

Mynnion

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2022, 08:13:55 AM »
Quote
It's just interesting seeing a more realistic version of science fiction without faster than light travel or force fields.

I believe that FTL travel is theoretically possible and may eventually even be practical based on DARPAs recent creation of a WARP bubble.  Depending on how forcefields are defined they may also be possible (they are already being used for containment in fusion reactor testing.

Our cell phone would have been sci fi to someone living even 50 years ago.  With the massive rate of tech change declaring anything unrealistic in the future seems short-sighted.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2022, 01:52:21 PM »
Our cell phone would have been sci fi to someone living even 50 years ago.  With the massive rate of tech change declaring anything unrealistic in the future seems short-sighted.

Not really.

50 years ago the cell phone was already in development(April 1973), car phones already existed.

Everything else about it is largely just the application of miniaturization. While many advances in materials science are involved in making the modern smart phone viable. Nothing about it would be seen as "science fiction" as it is largely applications of science that was already understood by 1972.

Heck, the C programming language already existed by 1972.

The thing that would blow their minds, and is an ongoing issue for Japan to this day, is that software has almost become more important than the hardware. For a generation of people who went from non-mechanical to mechanical systems, the idea of hardware being that flexible in what it can do would be quite the mind-bender, but again, that's all about application, not the underlying science and tech.

IE: They'd be more surprised by how we're using it than they would be by what we're using. At least if they were working in science and tech fields in 1972. Everyone else would likely think it's sci-fi.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 01:58:02 PM by TheDeamon »

Fenring

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2022, 04:05:10 PM »
50 years ago the cell phone was already in development(April 1973), car phones already existed.

Everything else about it is largely just the application of miniaturization. While many advances in materials science are involved in making the modern smart phone viable. Nothing about it would be seen as "science fiction" as it is largely applications of science that was already understood by 1972.

Lol, dude, in 1987 when Star Trek: TNG came out the PADD's were this cool futuristic 'digital book' tech, whereas now by contrast they look stone aged and clunky. Our cell phones as they are now seem to me way beyond what sci-fi authors were expecting within their lifetimes in terms of merging screens, computing, and phone tech. As a friend of mine used to snarkily say, 'it's not a phone it's a device', which is all too true. It happens to include phone capabilities but really it's more advanced than $2,000 PC's were in the 90's. A phone can beat grandmasters at chess now. That's not just miniaturization, it's a real breakthrough IMO.

Mynnion

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2022, 10:00:25 AM »
Quote
Not really.

50 years ago the cell phone was already in development(April 1973), car phones already existed.

Everything else about it is largely just the application of miniaturization. While many advances in materials science are involved in making the modern smart phone viable. Nothing about it would be seen as "science fiction" as it is largely applications of science that was already understood by 1972.

Heck, the C programming language already existed by 1972.

The thing that would blow their minds, and is an ongoing issue for Japan to this day, is that software has almost become more important than the hardware. For a generation of people who went from non-mechanical to mechanical systems, the idea of hardware being that flexible in what it can do would be quite the mind-bender, but again, that's all about application, not the underlying science and tech.

IE: They'd be more surprised by how we're using it than they would be by what we're using. At least if they were working in science and tech fields in 1972. Everyone else would likely think it's sci-fi.

I wasn't really referring to the basic cellular functionality but to the full smart phone capability.  I believe that would have been considered SCIFI.  You can quibble about the specifics but it doesn't really change the point.

cherrypoptart

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2022, 10:47:09 AM »
Now don't get me wrong. I love my multiphasic shielding, warp and mycelium drives, and all of the rest of it though we do need to get some better quality control on the flux capacitors, but it was nice to see a sci-fi show in which the humans were still riding the lower end of the technology learning curve. Even after looking into the new warp bubble research, I still doubt that humans will ever travel faster than the speed of light. I'd love to be proven wrong and would be even happier if I'm around to see it happen.

Fenring

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2022, 10:53:50 AM »
I still doubt that humans will ever travel faster than the speed of light. I'd love to be proven wrong and would be even happier if I'm around to see it happen.

Ever? Haha, that's a long time. I think it's disputable whether we could achieve such a thing in a few hundred years, or that time scale. But forever...I imagine in a million or two years we'll be able to juggle suns. Moving ourselves to another star system will be what TNG's PADD's are now...a quaint old timey tech concept.

Mynnion

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2022, 11:08:30 AM »
Of course,  That is if we don't create an AI that wipes us out or makes us slaves.  OR if we don't wipe ourselves out playing with superbugs, start WW3, get wiped out by something like the Yellowstone volcano......

TheDrake

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2022, 11:12:11 AM »
In a million or so years we'll probably still be burning fossil fuels, just in distant star systems.

I don't think humans travel faster than light, I don't think humans as meat-sacks are going anywhere. I think long before that we transition into the Q Continuum or wiped out by AI or achieve clairvoyance. I don't think mechanical propulsion will be a thing in a thousand years, as far as thinking beings are concerned. Something more like the Orson Scott Card world with ansible communication and if you want to actually travel in meat space, you leave everyone you know to die off while you make your journey at sub-light speed. But why bother travelling to an actual world, unless you are a scientist who wants to study it, and even then why not jack into a robot probe?

Fenring

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2022, 12:13:55 PM »
In a million or so years we'll probably still be burning fossil fuels, just in distant star systems.

I don't think humans travel faster than light, I don't think humans as meat-sacks are going anywhere. I think long before that we transition into the Q Continuum or wiped out by AI or achieve clairvoyance. I don't think mechanical propulsion will be a thing in a thousand years, as far as thinking beings are concerned. Something more like the Orson Scott Card world with ansible communication and if you want to actually travel in meat space, you leave everyone you know to die off while you make your journey at sub-light speed. But why bother travelling to an actual world, unless you are a scientist who wants to study it, and even then why not jack into a robot probe?

Well there's the Dan Simmons physics, where you learn how to walk through distance as if it was adjacent. It's true that's not FTL freight travel. The only thing about warp drive is I wonder how destructive it would be, bending space with such extreme force.

TheDrake

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2022, 02:16:07 PM »
I was never quite sure why warp field or hyperdrive, whatnot, never got used as a weapon. I would assume hitting a planet with a time and space warping balloon would be kind of bad, never mind the kinetic energy. A stupid shuttle could plow into a planet at warp 3. Why have an epic battle for space station, when you can just warp on into the power plant. I've watched almost every episode of each variety, and I don't think they ever addressed it.

Fenring

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2022, 02:18:07 PM »
I was never quite sure why warp field or hyperdrive, whatnot, never got used as a weapon. I would assume hitting a planet with a time and space warping balloon would be kind of bad, never mind the kinetic energy. A stupid shuttle could plow into a planet at warp 3. Why have an epic battle for space station, when you can just warp on into the power plant. I've watched almost every episode of each variety, and I don't think they ever addressed it.

Oh, you should watch the amazing SW: TLJ then...

TheDrake

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2022, 02:27:29 PM »
Seems to break canon. Why didn't the rebels in IV just hyper on in to the heart of the death star?

NobleHunter

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2022, 02:34:51 PM »
I was never quite sure why warp field or hyperdrive, whatnot, never got used as a weapon. I would assume hitting a planet with a time and space warping balloon would be kind of bad, never mind the kinetic energy. A stupid shuttle could plow into a planet at warp 3. Why have an epic battle for space station, when you can just warp on into the power plant. I've watched almost every episode of each variety, and I don't think they ever addressed it.

Usually the worldbuilding says you can't enter FTL near a sufficiently large gravity well so planets are inherently protected. Though I'm not sure if Star Trek ever said that. Nor do I think they've ever address why not warp speed kamikazes though I'd probably handwave that shields extend into subspace and it makes warp field bounce off (blow up the ship safely outside the shields). Star Trek is terrible about exploring off-label uses of its more convenient technologies, see teleporters.

It's also common for planets to be considered indefensible because the setting's weapons and slower than light engines are usually enough to give planet-based targets a very bad day. You don't need to use an FTL suicide run to wreck a planet.

Seems to break canon. Why didn't the rebels in IV just hyper on in to the heart of the death star?

Because the Death Star had enough of a gravity well to force the rebel ships out of hyper well short of the surface. Or it was close enough to the moon which did the same thing.

Fenring

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2022, 02:44:57 PM »
Because the Death Star had enough of a gravity well to force the rebel ships out of hyper well short of the surface. Or it was close enough to the moon which did the same thing.

True, that is how Imperial Interdictor ships work.

NobleHunter

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2022, 02:46:29 PM »
True, that is how Imperial Interdictor ships work.

I can also fanwank an explanation for why the tactic in TLJ isn't used more often.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2022, 03:10:47 PM »
50 years ago the cell phone was already in development(April 1973), car phones already existed.

Everything else about it is largely just the application of miniaturization. While many advances in materials science are involved in making the modern smart phone viable. Nothing about it would be seen as "science fiction" as it is largely applications of science that was already understood by 1972.

Lol, dude, in 1987 when Star Trek: TNG came out the PADD's were this cool futuristic 'digital book' tech, whereas now by contrast they look stone aged and clunky. Our cell phones as they are now seem to me way beyond what sci-fi authors were expecting within their lifetimes in terms of merging screens, computing, and phone tech.

I... Have doubts about that. By 1987 Cell Phones were around, although the flip-phone (comparable to the TOS communicator) was still about a decade out, the first PDA had already been around since 1984 at that point, although it featured a keyboard.

The PADD was a reasonable extrapolation/iteration of what could be possible based on what already existed. IMO, the PADD is still the superior item, although aspects of its UI do leave a lot to be desired by current standards.

Touchscreens even existed in 1987, although they were more of a pressure/resistance matrix than the sleek and responsive experience portrayed in TNG. We've got the sleek look now with capacitive-touch, the responsive part.... leaves a lot to be desired just yet.

It still stands that at that stage, much of the computer interface/display related stuff in TNG was basically a "futuristic iteration" of things that already existed.

I have memories of things being done with the PADD that would indicate they actually had a pretty good grasp. Kids plays (educational) games on them, (adults would never do that), crew reading reports/messages(e-mails) on their PADD devices. About the only things they didn't do with the PADD was make phone calls(they had communicators, and their version of Alexa for that), or to do video calls, where they'd actually go to a terminal. However pictures on a PADD display could, and did happen, so it did have some media capability. They just hadn't considered doing video through the smaller pad when a larger console display was nearby. (that and the special effects to make that work would likely cost a bit more, so cost savings factor in. Easier to do static displays on mobile objects)

Quote
As a friend of mine used to snarkily say, 'it's not a phone it's a device', which is all too true. It happens to include phone capabilities but really it's more advanced than $2,000 PC's were in the 90's. A phone can beat grandmasters at chess now. That's not just miniaturization, it's a real breakthrough IMO.

No, that's Moore's Law, which was expressed in 1965. So very predictable in 1972. If anything, they were more optimistic in some respects. Remember 2001: A Space Odyssey and the Hal 9000?

Arthur C Clark was predicting AI by 2001 while in the 1960's. We're in 2022 and are only now getting to the point of an AI that starts to resemble HAL 9000 at a superficial level.

TheDeamon

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2022, 03:22:46 PM »
I was never quite sure why warp field or hyperdrive, whatnot, never got used as a weapon. I would assume hitting a planet with a time and space warping balloon would be kind of bad, never mind the kinetic energy. A stupid shuttle could plow into a planet at warp 3. Why have an epic battle for space station, when you can just warp on into the power plant. I've watched almost every episode of each variety, and I don't think they ever addressed it.

Babylon 5 actually did something close to that near the end of Season 4, had a White Star open a Hyperspace portal a few hundred feet off the surface of Mars. It... made for a bad time for those who were not prepared for it.

Generally speaking TOS Trek generally had them enter/exit warp well away from the planet. In the Motion Picture, they basically cleared out of the entire solar system before entering warp. (Of course, in ST:IV they then warped around the sun, so...)

More generally, at least where Warp is concerned, I think maintaining "the warp bubble" becomes increasingly difficult the deeper the gravity well is that you're in. (This would also justify the Klingon Bird of Prey's need for a "recharge" of its crystal matrix) Where as I also recall, the idea of the warp bubble also centers on the idea that it isn't you that is moving, but rather the space around your bubble that is. So the moment the bubble collapses, the momentum you had from the warp bubble disappears with it. So whatever speed you had before going to warp would be the speed you have upon exiting. Which doesn't make for much of a kinetic weapon on its own. But those impulse engines on the other hand...

TheDeamon

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2022, 03:26:00 PM »
It's also common for planets to be considered indefensible because the setting's weapons and slower than light engines are usually enough to give planet-based targets a very bad day. You don't need to use an FTL suicide run to wreck a planet.

IIRC, ST:Enterprise actually kind of touched on that (indirectly) when they had an episode where they were testing some weapon upgrades and some comments were made about just how large the asteroid was that they'd just obliterated so casually. Even by then, the NX-01 by itself could bring about the apocalypse for a planet if so inclined.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2022, 03:44:35 PM »
I was never quite sure why warp field or hyperdrive, whatnot, never got used as a weapon. I would assume hitting a planet with a time and space warping balloon would be kind of bad, never mind the kinetic energy. A stupid shuttle could plow into a planet at warp 3. Why have an epic battle for space station, when you can just warp on into the power plant. I've watched almost every episode of each variety, and I don't think they ever addressed it.

Trek (particularly TNG) in general was pretty soft on their weapons advancement and tactics. Super advanced computers but you still had an officer aiming and firing weapons instead of automated systems. The Borg let people beam onto the ship and roam around but they somehow never thought to beam aboard some big explosives. The Federation had fought two wars with different species in the last 100ish years but devoted very few resources or research into more advanced weapons capabilities. Fighting in TNG was usually limited. I feel like Rodenberry wanted to make it more about diplomacy and so they didn't put much thought into where the weapons and war tactics in space would go.

TheDrake

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2022, 03:55:27 PM »
Well, in TOS and in ST4, they pulled a slingshot around Sol and bounced into the past. Which brings up a host of other issues, but limiting to the idea of gravity well + warp speed...

Presumably Jupiter wasn't big enough to pull this off, or they wouldn't have careened toward a star. The gravity well near Sol must have been way more than you'd get at the surface of Earth. We know they were pulling a lot more than 1g when their souls got pulled out of their bodies or whatever that was.

Maybe it could have been some kind of mutual assured destruction of the future. If one civilization warps into the global capitol, the retaliation could be swift and devestating.

OF course both trek and star wars somehow ditched kinetic weapons. That's something I liked about the Expanse, that they were throwing rocks and slugs and trying to stop missiles with PVCs.

yossarian22c

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2022, 03:57:13 PM »
True, that is how Imperial Interdictor ships work.

I can also fanwank an explanation for why the tactic in TLJ isn't used more often.

Mostly would centered around the interdictor technology that is briefly touched on. No reason the death star wouldn't have an interdictor field of its own.

Almost all of the space battles in TLJ are painful to think about. Really slow "bombers" with gravity bombs? The first time in 8 movies where hyperdrive fuel was even mentioned, much less the main plot point. The weird sublight speed space chase. Did the rebels have an interdictor to keep the empire from jumping in closer? (Real question I can't remember the reason they couldn't just jump up to them or ahead of them since they would have to burn massive amounts of fuel to turn around). The fact that in a supposed fight for control of thousands of star systems both armies where down to a literal handful of ships. With the armed forces of both sides this diminished there should have been lots of regional powers that rose up to fill the void.

Fenring

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2022, 04:08:16 PM »
The Borg let people beam onto the ship and roam around but they somehow never thought to beam aboard some big explosives.

Did some playtesting once of a ST tabletop RPG, and of course we had to encounter the Borg more than once. Let's just say it was good we had a large store of shuttlecraft aboard, since our main opening was to beam shuttlecraft on board the Borg vessel and detonate their warp cores.

NobleHunter

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2022, 07:33:03 PM »
Did some playtesting once of a ST tabletop RPG, and of course we had to encounter the Borg more than once. Let's just say it was good we had a large store of shuttlecraft aboard, since our main opening was to beam shuttlecraft on board the Borg vessel and detonate their warp cores.

Though by internal show logic, that would only work once.

Fenring

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2022, 07:45:56 PM »
Though by internal show logic, that would only work once.

Well the first time was a freebie, and after that any effort to do anything other than escape was an effort in smuggling warp cores on board :P All other weapons were useless in comparison.

Grant

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2022, 02:45:34 PM »
Now don't get me wrong. I love my multiphasic shielding, warp and mycelium drives, and all of the rest of it though we do need to get some better quality control on the flux capacitors, but it was nice to see a sci-fi show in which the humans were still riding the lower end of the technology learning curve. Even after looking into the new warp bubble research, I still doubt that humans will ever travel faster than the speed of light. I'd love to be proven wrong and would be even happier if I'm around to see it happen.

Meh. I'm going to take it a step further and say that while I love Star Wars and Star Trek for what they are, I'm kinda tired of handwavium to a certain extent and love harder sci-fi.  I'm particularly kind of upset with Star Trek to really evolve into what it should be.  It started out as a pretty hard premise.  Sure maybe we can have Alcubierre Drives one day.  But they ain't gonna look like Federation Starships as we see them now.  And space fungus space jumps?  Ridiculous.  But Star Trek is unable to evolve because of it's hard core fanbase's love of "CANON". 

So yeah, I loved the Expanse show and I've read all the books.  An yes there is handwavium in there too, and it's social outlook is indeed much darker than Trek, but it starts at a place that is much harder in terms of Star Trek.  Even Battlestar Galactica was basically harder than Star Trek, and it still had lots of handwavium and inconsistencies. 

But the best sci-fi is usually hard or starts from a hard place.  The Martian.  Gravity.  Even weird Interstellar.  Want to watch the hardest of the hard?  "For All Mankind" on Apple is outstanding.  Foundation has been a miss for me.  Artemis and The Hail Mary Project from Andy Weir were outstanding.  The Remembrance of Earth's Past started out very hard, transitioned to the fabulous, but was excellent throughout.  The Bobiverse books are some of my favorites.  The Human Reach was THE BEST MILITARY SCI FI since Starship Troopers.  Then the author just went and got a real job or something.  The Torchship series is hard as a rock and excellent. 

I invite all of you to a great treasure.  The Mecca of Hard Sci-fi.  One of the BEST THINGS ON THE INTERNET, PERIOD.  In the words of Commander Charles Anderson (Michael Biehn): "I *censored* you not". 

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/

You will thank me.  You're welcome.  Slava RocketCat! 

LetterRip

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Re: The Expanse - Scifi Network Show
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2022, 03:01:26 PM »
Just read the final novel in the series - it was a satisfying conclusion - highly recommend the books.  The tv series appears to be quite faithful to the books as well.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2022, 03:03:36 PM by LetterRip »