Author Topic: michael Moore predicts Trump victory  (Read 15360 times)

Pete at Home

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michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« on: July 22, 2016, 12:30:46 AM »
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5790cc54e4b0bdddc4d342fd

Most talking heads are spinning the RNC as a shambles, but it"s.really a tour de force, for good and bad. 


Wayward Son

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2016, 01:55:11 AM »
Shambles?  No.  FiveThirtyEight currently estimates that Donald has about a 40 percent chance of winning the election.

But tour de force?  Hardly.  With delegates at the convention trying to free delegates to vote for someone else, John McCain staying at home in Arizona, and Ted Cruz refusing to endorse the candidate during a major speech at prime time...even the Republican Party is split over him.  We'll have Republicans locked arm-in-arm with Democrats decrying his win, if he should be so lucky.  That's hardly a tour de force in my book.

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2016, 02:11:23 AM »
Shambles?  No.  FiveThirtyEight currently estimates that Donald has about a 40 percent chance of winning the election.

But tour de force?  Hardly.  With delegates at the convention trying to free delegates to vote for someone else, John McCain staying at home in Arizona, and Ted Cruz refusing to endorse the candidate during a major speech at prime time...even the Republican Party is split over him.  We'll have Republicans locked arm-in-arm with Democrats decrying his win, if he should be so lucky.  That's hardly a tour de force in my book.

Just offering my own opinion.  I have never in my entire life been able to stay awake during more than an hour of any Republican convention until this one.  Have you ever watched another Republican convention? By those standards, this one was a tour de force.

My parents were big Cruz supporters, and they were pretty disgusted by Cruz. Me, I didn't like him, but I don't see why "vote your conscience" is so controversial.  Go figure. 

I found a number of items in the speeches disturbing.  for example, I'm less impressed that Trump found a more politically correct way to say temporarily shut down all immigration from (Muslim) countries, than I am horrified at the principle of betraying the good people who supported and translated for our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.  It doesn't "put America first to tell America's friends and allies that we intend to sink a knife in their backs.  It hurts American intelligence to make it so we cannot protect people in Islamist societies that put their necks out for us.  Remember, the only reason some good Columbians survived the fight against Pablo Escobar, was that their judges could come to America to hide from Escobar's wrath after they ruled against him.

I look forward to watching the DNC with my girlfriend next week, since she's reconciled herself to voting for Hillary in the same way that my parents have for Trump.  Note I've never tried to talk you or them out of voting their conscience. 

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2016, 02:54:05 AM »
The numbers do show an RNC rise for the Republicans.  But crunching the numbers, I don't see how Trump can pull off a national win.  Even if the Amish make good on the threat to come out for their first election ever (why they like Trump is beyond me) that still leaves Trump 800,000 below there.  And if California's suspicious vote against Sanders is any indication, Florida's new machines are voting for Hillary regardless of what the people vote.

AI Wessex

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2016, 08:45:13 AM »
Quote
FiveThirtyEight currently estimates that Donald has about a 40 percent chance of winning the election.
I highlighted the key word in that estimate.  It's time to get involved before this gets completely out of control.

rightleft22

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2016, 10:35:06 AM »
“One of the things I’ve been concerned about this week is we’re all sitting in our bubble, having a good laugh at this total, as you said, *censored*show, but the truth is that this plays to a lot of people” 

We don’t learn from history so Moore is probably right.

And no I’m not comparing Trump to Hitler, Franko or Mussolini but referring to the campaign of the theater of exceptionalism(nationalism), us them, fear, blame, anti-intellectualism, and a population manipulated to overlook character that put such men (who prey on fear) in power.

And then when history looks back on such moments they mention how the establishment failed to take such men seriously, and thought they could manage them, and how the majority of the people looked away and "let" *censored* happen stunned like a dear in headlights.

It boggles the mind that a person can overlook the character of a man

If I hear one more time someone say that yes they have concerns about his political, professional, personas but apparently his one on one and family man personas are great so sure I can support him. Oh but when it comes to the other leaders character, well that’s all that matters. How does Trumpism do that? Why are so many people falling for it?

When does it mean when you boo the statement “vote you’re conscious”.  A subliminal suggestion that the mob isn’t’ voting consciously!!! Its all shadow! (the image of Trump first appearance at the RNC as the emerging larger then life shadow should scare the crap out of everyone!)

You want big government intervention, you want freedom by limiting freedom (freedom for the angry white man anyway) Vote for Trump he’s your voice.  He’s your fracking Voice!!! Do you hear the crap your saying, what you’re really saying!  what you really are standing for! Wake UP!!!

JoshCrow

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2016, 11:23:35 AM »
When does it mean when you boo the statement “vote you’re conscious”.  A subliminal suggestion that the mob isn’t’ voting consciously!!!

To correct the record, it is "vote your conscience" and not "vote you're conscious".

Voting is usually a conscious act (although some voters are arguably just zombies who pull levers without any thought). It is not always a conscientious one.

Actually, I think a good slogan might be "Vote! You're conscious!"

Wayward Son

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2016, 11:43:41 AM »
Or perhaps the enjoinder, "Vote while conscious!" :)

DJQuag

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2016, 12:41:03 PM »
I just saw the sane people in the UK assume that the citizenry wouldn't cut their own throats, and we got Brexit and, just for starters, a loss of fourteen percent of the worth of our money.

The left's biggest enemy in this election is itself. If people geto complacent and think that there's no way Trump could win...well, that's about the only way that he can win.

rightleft22

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2016, 01:00:26 PM »
Exactly

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2016, 01:31:56 PM »
Shouldn't have counted on Trump to drive Republicans into Hillary's arms.

were you even watching?  He never mentioned abortion or planned parenthood.  There hasn't been an RNC since Gerald Ford where abortion wasn't center stage.  He highlighted gay rights and even mouthed the "GLBTQ" shibboleth, and still they cheered him.

You shouldn't have let Hillary blatantly cheat at the polls.  You shouldn't have let her keep running when she was blatantly lying in her testimony before Congress, even if you thought the investigation was unfair.  Exit polls say Bernie should have won that nomination hands down.  You want to stop trump from winning, you have to sacrifice Hillary.

rightleft22

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2016, 01:43:41 PM »
So your ok with a man like Trump being your voice??


Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2016, 02:34:39 PM »
So your ok with a man like Trump being your voice??

Please tell me you're not talking to me.  I thought we'd had this conversation before. as far as I'm concerned, a vote for Hillary is a vote for Trump and vice versa.  Question is, are *you* ok with Trump being your voice? If so, then keep supporting Hillary.

Like Al said, the time to act is NOW.  You have days or hours until the Democratic Convention.  Without Hillary, the entire Republican facade of unity will crumble.  If y'all haven't killed Bernie yet, I suggest you drag him back out of cold storage.

I say you because I  renounced my membership in the DNC the day that Bernie endorsed Hillary Clinton; I am done with political parties. It's a meaningless gesture but it's all I can do.

I don't think either Hillary or Trump is quite as bad as their opponents protray them, but I cannot in conscience vote for either.

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2016, 02:46:17 PM »
http://www.vox.com/2016/7/21/12218136/donald-trump-nomination-afraid

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Trump is a liar....Trump is a narcissist. Trump is vindictive. 
and Hillary isn't?
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Trump is a bigot.
did you hear Hillary's response to the police shootings?  blame the victim.  Yes there are some horrible cases out there where cops have negligently killed or even murdered innocents, but the ones that died in Dallas died as heroes protecting the lives of those that protest against them, and they deserve to be remembered for that without the spectre of other cops' crimes hanging over their funerals.

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Trump is a sexist.
What do you call Hillary's squad insisting that any female that doesn't vote Hillary is a "traitor" to her gynie parts?

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Trump admires authoritarian dictators for their authoritarianism.
Hillary isn't authoritarian?

Trump's entire support is based on fear of Hillary.  If you want to make bet on a candidate whose entire support is based on fear of Trump, then don't blame conscientious objectors if you roll snake eyes.

NobleHunter

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2016, 02:53:02 PM »
Has Clinton provided cover and support for the "sexists" on her side in the same way that Trump has for the racists?

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Hillary isn't authoritarian?
Not in the same sense that Putin is.

I don't see how any significant support for Trump can be due to fear of Clinton. Trump's rhetoric and demagoguery has very little to do with his opponent except that his opponent is a politically-correct mealy-mouthed politician who won't do what's necessary to Make! America! Great! In other words: anyone but him.

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2016, 02:57:33 PM »
I admired Christy's speech for its style and power, but was horrified at the effect of crowds shouting "Guilty" like it was some sort of show trial.  Someone might file a bar complaint against him.

There were parts of Trump's speech where he sounded so reasonable I actually considered voting for him. I can't, because I strongly support Obama's immigration reform, and because Trumps proposal destroys national security by screwing over our allies and in particular non-americans from ISIS prone countries who have put themselves and their families on the line to help America.  You can put America first without being stupid or dishonorable.  See http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/faultlines/2016/03/left-america-afghan-translators-160329132304215.html

Senate Fails To Secure Visas For Afghan Interpreters Who Risked Their Lives For U.S. Troops

rightleft22

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2016, 02:57:39 PM »
II'm not good at this form of communication. I know what I want to say but can't say it
I give up

We get the people leading us that we deserve.   

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2016, 02:58:48 PM »
Has Clinton provided cover and support for the "sexists" on her side in the same way that Trump has for the racists?

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Hillary isn't authoritarian?
Not in the same sense that Putin is.

I don't see how any significant support for Trump can be due to fear of Clinton. Trump's rhetoric and demagoguery has very little to do with his opponent except that his opponent is a politically-correct mealy-mouthed politician who won't do what's necessary to Make! America! Great! In other words: anyone but him.

If democrats believe that, then they should give up Hillary.  If they don't give up Hillary, then clearly they don't see Trump as dangerous as they say he is.

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2016, 03:00:58 PM »
II'm not good at this form of communication. I know what I want to say but can't say it
I give up

We get the people leading us that we deserve.

I fear you're right. Bill Clinton, George W Bush and now these two candidates ... they are basically what we've asked for, culturally, in our shallowness.

as bad as Obama was in many respects, he may have been better than we deserve.  now for the real plunge.

NobleHunter

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2016, 03:07:07 PM »
I admired Christy's speech for its style and power, but was horrified at the effect of crowds shouting "Guilty" like it was some sort of show trial.  Someone might file a bar complaint against him.
Christie's speech freaked me out because it's the sort of thing that risks turning politics back into a blood sport, like, the win or die kind. A candidate for President shouldn't feel she risks going to jail on trumped (*rimshot*) charges if she loses. There might still be good reasons to send her to prison but most of what Christie said isn't it.

Though I was impressed by Cruz's rejection of Trump, which was incredibly crass and ungentlemanly but also sorely needed.

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2016, 03:25:54 PM »
I admired Christy's speech for its style and power, but was horrified at the effect of crowds shouting "Guilty" like it was some sort of show trial.  Someone might file a bar complaint against him.
Christie's speech freaked me out because it's the sort of thing that risks turning politics back into a blood sport, like, the win or die kind. A candidate for President shouldn't feel she risks going to jail on trumped (*rimshot*) charges if she loses. There might still be good reasons to send her to prison but most of what Christie said isn't it.

Though I was impressed by Cruz's rejection of Trump, which was incredibly crass and ungentlemanly but also sorely needed.

I actually sympathized with him when is said it was revenge for remarks against his wife.  Yes, Trump crossed a line there, and I'd feel less scared of him if he was man enough to apologize, even if Cruz is a dick.

agreed that Christy is playing with fire. The kind of fire that burned Paris and Rome.  I half expected him to pull a bloody cloak out and throw it to the audience.  The emotion stuff was good, and I'd be OK with the speech if they'd been shouting "indict" rather than "guilty."

DJQuag

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2016, 03:29:56 PM »
I didn't see the speech myself, but didn't Ivana Trump talk about the importance of equal pay and maternal/paternal leave in her speech? The crowd also cheered for that.

Trump is slowly but surely cutting into the easy attacks for the Clinton camp to make. I witnessed this in the last UK general election; conservatism isn't dying, *social conservativism* is dying, and a conservative candidate that dumps the social nonsense and sticks to economic conservatism is still a very serious opponent, most especially when their opponent is HRC.

DJQuag

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2016, 03:31:52 PM »
Even if I were on the fence, and I'm not, the NATO comments would have sent me flying away from Trump at light speed.

Fenring

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2016, 03:48:18 PM »
It boggles the mind that a person can overlook the character of a man

If I hear one more time someone say that yes they have concerns about his political, professional, personas but apparently his one on one and family man personas are great so sure I can support him. Oh but when it comes to the other leaders character, well that’s all that matters. How does Trumpism do that? Why are so many people falling for it?

I'm not sure you're thinking clearly about this or else you'd see the irony of your complaint here. You're saying Trump's public persona shouldn't discounted on account of his supposed private persona. Fine. Does you likewise think Hillary's private persona should be discounted on account of her public one? Publicly Hillary tends to come off as collected, professional, 'in charge'. Privately she's reportedly hellish to her staff, something of a screaming harpy, doesn't treat people nicely, had regular screaming matches with Bill in the White House, and rumor has it she even punched him in the face once (secret service reports he came out of a private meeting with her with a black eye, which they claimed was an 'accident').

So if you're so concerned about someone's private and public personas matching up I'm not sure if you're merely anti-Trump or trying to make a case for Hillary as well. If the latter then I'll be scratching my head at your logic.

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2016, 03:53:00 PM »
Quote
It boggles the mind that a person can overlook the character of a man

It boggles the mind that a person can overlook the character of a woman, too.  but what I see here among Republicans is people with grave concerns about his character, style and some positions, feeling like they have no choice because the alternative is Hillary.  One elderly gentleman who hasn't voted for a Democrat in 60 years confided in me that Trump's gestures remind him of Mussolini.

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A Mexican standoff is a confrontation between two or more parties in which no participant can proceed or retreat without being exposed to danger. As a result, all participants need to maintain the strategic tension, which remains unresolved until some outside event makes it possible to resolve it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_standoff


It's like Republicans and Democrats are playing chicken, and I don't think either side is going to blink.  Don't blame the folks that are bailing out of your cars.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 03:55:35 PM by Pete at Home »

NobleHunter

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2016, 04:30:09 PM »
I didn't see the speech myself, but didn't Ivana Trump talk about the importance of equal pay and maternal/paternal leave in her speech? The crowd also cheered for that.
The way I've seen it portrayed is that they were cheering the ideas because they were associated with Trump rather than the ideas themselves. It's cult of personality cheering rather than support for ideas.

DJQuag

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2016, 04:31:50 PM »
http://www.mediaite.com/online/leaked-dnc-emails-reveal-discussions-about-attacking-bernie-sanders-religion/

Holy balls. I'll always be a liberal,  but I'm never calling myself a Democrat again.

Wayward Son

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2016, 04:50:19 PM »
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It boggles the mind that a person can overlook the character of a woman, too.

I'm not so concerned about his character (hard to find a politician with any :)), but with his experience.

He glibly talks about, "Oh, I'll make a better deal on the TPP."  I don't think the fool has an inkling as to what that involves.

The TPP was negotiated over years with numerous nations, each sending a team of negotiators, each jockeying to create the best deal for themselves and screwing over the other guy if at all possible.  You're talking about dozens, if not hundreds, of different agendas, all competing with one another.  The fact that they got any deal out of it is a miracle in itself.

But the way Donald sees it, he can just call them all in and redo the whole thing to his liking.  ::)

The man has no clue on how difficult running a country is.  International relationships.  Internal politics.  National economics.  The inevitable scandals.  He blithely thinks that, because he ran some large businesses (some to bankruptcy), that he is qualified to do all that.  That his business experience alone gives him all the tools he needs.

A knowledgeable candidate with bad character may enrich himself with the office, but he'll keep the country going, if only to protect himself and his investments.  An egotistical ignoramus could make mistakes that will hurt the entire country without realizing it (such as threatening to renege on our promises to our NATO allies).  It's like that line from "Better Call Saul":  "...[it's] like giving a chimp a machine gun."  He may not even understand the damage he could do.

Trump strikes me as a guy at a bar who can solve the world's problems over a glass of beer.  Everything is so simple to him.  Because he hasn't had to actually try to do them...

He's lacking in character, sure.  But more importantly he lacks experience, humility, forethought, patience, and caution.  He doesn't worry about making a mistake, and doesn't care.  And that, more than any "good character," is what scares me about Trump.

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2016, 04:54:01 PM »
http://www.mediaite.com/online/leaked-dnc-emails-reveal-discussions-about-attacking-bernie-sanders-religion/

Holy balls. I'll always be a liberal,  but I'm never calling myself a Democrat again.

Good catch.  If I hadn't resigned the party when Bernie endorsed Hillary, I would do so now.

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In an email dated May 5, DNC CFO Brad Marshall apparently floats the idea of trying to raise Sanders’ potential atheism. The email does not mention Sanders by name. The email says, “It might may no difference, but for KY and WVA can we get someone to ask his belief. Does he believe in a God. He had skated on saying he has a Jewish heritage. I think I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and an atheist.”

scifibum

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2016, 05:05:29 PM »
Clinton may be dishonest and self serving, but she has a pretty firm grasp on reality.  Trump has provided plenty of evidence that he doesn't.  That's why he's a much worse prospect.

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2016, 05:29:03 PM »
Clinton may be dishonest and self serving, but she has a pretty firm grasp on reality.  Trump has provided plenty of evidence that he doesn't.  That's why he's a much worse prospect.

"We are the president of the united states" unfortunately was a pre-internet quote and I can't find it.  Wasn't it something she screamed at a journalist in Sundance, Utah?

Reality questions in Hillary emails

Sleep deprived Hillary dodges imaginary snipers in Bosnia

anyone surrounded by yes men is going to have reality issues, which is why the Republic of Ragusa's golden ball system (aside from the aristocratic restriction) was much superior to the US system which is based on Rome, and was the cause of Rome's civil wars.

 I haven't seen Trump dodging bullets from imaginary snipers.
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Of course, it wasn’t one time. It wasn’t late at night. She wasn’t exhausted because she said it three different times. And she didn’t apologize immediately (or even close to immediately). It also begged the question: If Hillary could be gaga at 11:00 pm, what would she be like when the phone rings at 3:00 am?

Interestingly, it's my parents, who really don't like Hillary, who defended her on the atheist snafu.  My dad points out that it's to her credit that she rejected the proposal, in a state that she was losing to Sanders.  That looks like a glimmering of integrity.  a line she declined to cross.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 05:31:51 PM by Pete at Home »

Fenring

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2016, 05:46:45 PM »
He glibly talks about, "Oh, I'll make a better deal on the TPP."  I don't think the fool has an inkling as to what that involves.

Despite the nonsense most politicians claim they'll be able to do once they're president, this is one thing a president actually could do. The entire TPP deal would be scuttled if America backed out, and therefore the president would have the power to hold it hostage if he actually wanted it changed. It can't be amended once brought before Congress (fast track) but it can be altered beforehand. Trump has gone on record numerous times calling out how bad a deal it is and how trade deals like this kill jobs in America. If he really means it then yes, he could do something about the deal.

rightleft22

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2016, 06:21:49 PM »
To clarify my remarks

I'm not saying that if someone was justifying there support of Hillary in the same manner that that would be ok. I am not hearing that kind of justification  coming from her supporters, however I may not be noticing for the noise that Trump makes.

I find the arguments and justifications people are using are not rational and find the type of discourse frightening. I know I"m not explaining myself very well...

Trump lies but Hillary is a lyer , Trump bully's but isn't a bully, Hilary bullies and is a bully What sticks on Hillary does not stick on Trump. What sticks on any other politicians does not stick on Trump and that to my mind is dangerous

What Trump represents physiologically is dangerous. Take out the labels of democrat or republican, watch him, listen to him and how people respond to him. Who they become. It isn't political, what I'm saying isn't political. Hilary maybe a bad person who time ought to have passed, but something about Trump is... off

I don't see this ending well

Has Trump read the papers on TPP?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 06:32:03 PM by rightleft22 »

TheDeamon

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2016, 07:27:41 PM »
Trump's entire support is based on fear of Hillary.  If you want to make bet on a candidate whose entire support is based on fear of Trump, then don't blame conscientious objectors if you roll snake eyes.

The one time I listened to Limbaugh this year was shortly after the Brexit vote just to see what he'd be saying. He discussed Trump in all of that because of the golf course thing in Scotland. I think a valid point was brought forward in his monologue on Trump however. You have just utterly failed to understand Trump's support base, and this is where the Democrats are in trouble.

Trump has been a media personality for decades, and thanks to things like The Apprentice, he has built a sizable support base just going off of popular perceptions of him as a business man. No matter how hard anybody tries to pry those supporters away from Trump, regardless of where they are on the political spectrum, they are going to fail. Those supporters are excited, and they're energized, and they're connected to their candidate. This is something that wasn't the case with Romney and McCain.

Moving away from his monologue, that even somewhat applies to Bush(although he had his father's coat tails to play off of after 8 years of Clinton).

In many respects, Trump came into the election with a ready made support base from his celebrity businessman/tycoon persona, much like Obama had an energized and excited political base built off the popularity of his books which many voters connected to, and his gift for delivering speeches.

Trying to get between Trump and "his base" is like trying to get between Obama and "his base." Tactics that would work on most other candidates 99% of the time won't work on Trump because of that "connection" with his supporters. Just as they didn't work on Obama, because try as you might, you can't undermine that "connection" without a LOT of work.

For that matter, even Bill Clinton was(and evidently still is) good at "connecting" with people, but even what he built is a pale shadow to what either Obama or Trump have. Hillary may be leveraging a lot of Bill Clinton's earlier work, and Obama may be trying to provide some support as well, but she is no President Obama, or Bill Clinton.

The other problem Hillary has is all of the (national) political baggage she has amassed on the National Stage since 1992, where she's spent much of that time in one spotlight or another, she isn't much of an unknown factor, people largely made up their minds about her a long time ago. Which basically means this election boils down to how people decide to measure Trump when compared against her.

TheDeamon

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2016, 07:31:03 PM »
Trump is slowly but surely cutting into the easy attacks for the Clinton camp to make. I witnessed this in the last UK general election; conservatism isn't dying, *social conservativism* is dying, and a conservative candidate that dumps the social nonsense and sticks to economic conservatism is still a very serious opponent, most especially when their opponent is HRC.

And it is about *#@&ing time that it died such a death. I'm not completely opposed to social conservatism, but the (christian fundamentalist) social conservative can go take a hike. I don't want them legislating my or anyone else's activities just as much as I don't want some flavor of the month LGBT Alliance legislating them.

TheDeamon

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2016, 07:33:07 PM »
What Trump represents physiologically is dangerous. Take out the labels of democrat or republican, watch him, listen to him and how people respond to him. Who they become. It isn't political, what I'm saying isn't political. Hilary maybe a bad person who time ought to have passed, but something about Trump is... off

Donald Trump is Bill Clinton if he had taken up Real Estate instead of politics as his first career focus.

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2016, 08:00:03 PM »
Trump is slowly but surely cutting into the easy attacks for the Clinton camp to make. I witnessed this in the last UK general election; conservatism isn't dying, *social conservativism* is dying, and a conservative candidate that dumps the social nonsense and sticks to economic conservatism is still a very serious opponent, most especially when their opponent is HRC.

And it is about *#@&ing time that it died such a death. I'm not completely opposed to social conservatism, but the (christian fundamentalist) social conservative can go take a hike. I don't want them legislating my or anyone else's activities just as much as I don't want some flavor of the month LGBT Alliance legislating them.

Then join me (darth vader voice) in referring to the QGBLT whenever you have something positive to say about gay rights.  It sews confusion into the hearts of the brainwashed that you can support their good ideas while dotting every i and crossing every t of their modish surf-speak.  It also helps separate the gay rights folks that you can reason with from those who are about marching in jack-step harmony.

AI Wessex

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2016, 12:08:42 PM »
I can't wait for someone to hack into the RNC email servers so we can find out what they were saying about Trump.

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2016, 02:44:38 PM »
I can't wait for someone to hack into the RNC email servers so we can find out what they were saying about Trump.

Absolutely.  Let the sunshine in, brother. But curious what you'll say when those docs show that Mitch McConnell and other of your pet demons are in bed with Hillary Clinton with Trump and the KOCH brothers empire.

Wayward Son

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2016, 04:05:02 PM »
He glibly talks about, "Oh, I'll make a better deal on the TPP."  I don't think the fool has an inkling as to what that involves.

Despite the nonsense most politicians claim they'll be able to do once they're president, this is one thing a president actually could do. The entire TPP deal would be scuttled if America backed out, and therefore the president would have the power to hold it hostage if he actually wanted it changed. It can't be amended once brought before Congress (fast track) but it can be altered beforehand. Trump has gone on record numerous times calling out how bad a deal it is and how trade deals like this kill jobs in America. If he really means it then yes, he could do something about the deal.

You're right that Trump could do something about it.  He could scuttle it.  He could make minor changes to it.  But making a "better deal?"  It took 7 years to negotiate this treaty, with negotiations stalled since 2012 (per Wikipedia).  How would he "make a better deal?"

Any major changes he proposed (demanded) would kill it.  The other countries were in no hurry to finalize it; enough would have no problem scuttling it.

Even I, who has no experience with negotiations, knows he can't just waltz in and change the treaty at the last minute.  But he thinks he can.  He thinks its just another hotel deal, just on a bigger scale.  He has no clue...

Yes, he could do something about it.  Just not what he imagines he could do... :(

Fenring

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2016, 04:30:20 PM »
Even I, who has no experience with negotiations, knows he can't just waltz in and change the treaty at the last minute.  But he thinks he can.  He thinks its just another hotel deal, just on a bigger scale.  He has no clue...

Yes, he could do something about it.  Just not what he imagines he could do... :(

If we assume for the moment he was speaking shrewdly his comment could be interpreted as meaning scuttling it would be a better deal. I'm not sure I want to make that claim on his behalf, so maybe you're right that he's not quite clear on what his actual abilities are there. To be fair, though, he's probably counting on the vast majority of Americans having no clue what TPP is anyhow (at least in specifics), so I doubt he's taking any kind of political risk making boasts on this topic. It's enough to appease people against the deal to speak negatively about it. Contrast this with his talk of building a wall, which pretty much everyone will be able to verify he did or did not do during his first term.

Pete at Home

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2016, 05:06:30 PM »
I can't wait for someone to hack into the RNC email servers so we can find out what they were saying about Trump.

I'm sure that the Clintons' Chinese friends are working on it as we speak, and the Chinese hackers are better than the Russians.  Unfortunately, I suspect that Trump's people are less sloppy than Hillary's people with their servers.

Seriati

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2016, 06:55:13 PM »
Honestly, not sure what you'll find, the RNC was openly hostile to Trump.  Loyalty pledges, desperation, and he was pretty nasty back to them, including in the public debates when he called them out for filling the audience with contributors.  Even now, that they're stuck with him, they're clearly barely able to endorse him.

I still think it's funny, that Trump has so little conservative credibility, has been acknowledged as being potential a left plant to get Hillary elected, has a history of a number of non-conservative opinions and even made totally mainstream social issue comments in his speeches, and the Left still acts like its the absolute end of the world if he'd get elected. 

TheDeamon

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2016, 10:06:48 PM »
Honestly, not sure what you'll find, the RNC was openly hostile to Trump.  Loyalty pledges, desperation, and he was pretty nasty back to them, including in the public debates when he called them out for filling the audience with contributors.  Even now, that they're stuck with him, they're clearly barely able to endorse him.

I still think it's funny, that Trump has so little conservative credibility, has been acknowledged as being potential a left plant to get Hillary elected, has a history of a number of non-conservative opinions and even made totally mainstream social issue comments in his speeches, and the Left still acts like its the absolute end of the world if he'd get elected.

This time 1 million. Let us also not forget the histrionics about how badly Trump is going to mangle the U.S. Legal system with rampant illegal and unconstitutional actions.

And completely ignoring the Republican tendency to quickly throw high level Republicans under the bus at the merest hint of a scandal. Or that Republicans are the only ones to try to impeach a President. Or the matter that nobody who was awake for the first quarter of this year should seriously believe most of the Republicans in Congress want to be linked with Trump.

If Trump "goes crazy" in Office, the Republicans are likely to be the first ones in line to force him out of office, by any means available.

AI Wessex

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2016, 10:54:33 AM »
Honestly, not sure what you'll find, the RNC was openly hostile to Trump.  Loyalty pledges, desperation, and he was pretty nasty back to them, including in the public debates when he called them out for filling the audience with contributors.  Even now, that they're stuck with him, they're clearly barely able to endorse him.
Nice sidestep.  You are saying it is well-known that the RNC was hostile to Trump, so the emails won't reveal anything?  OTOH, you also knew that the DNC was tilted for Hillary, but you're outraged to find out that the emails contain negative things about Bernie.  'Splain me the rules here, I don't understand how this works...

Quote
I still think it's funny, that Trump has so little conservative credibility, has been acknowledged as being potential a left plant to get Hillary elected, has a history of a number of non-conservative opinions and even made totally mainstream social issue comments in his speeches, and the Left still acts like its the absolute end of the world if he'd get elected.
You have to focus like a laser on those things you have mentioned by steering around the cesspool of the vast number of things he has said that should not only horrify "the left" but should make any reasonable person run away from him as fast and far as possible.  Yet, you're giving him cover for some reason.

scifibum

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2016, 11:35:24 AM »
We aren't afraid of him being credibly conservative.  I would gladly take McCain or Romney right now.

Wayward Son

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2016, 11:46:35 AM »
I still think it's funny, that Trump has so little conservative credibility, has been acknowledged as being potential a left plant to get Hillary elected, has a history of a number of non-conservative opinions and even made totally mainstream social issue comments in his speeches, and the Left still acts like its the absolute end of the world if he'd get elected.

It's this kind of binary thinking that has gotten up into trouble these days.

What makes you think that, just because a large number of Conservatives dislike Trump, that Liberals would automatically like him?  That since Liberals don't agree with Conservatives on a number of issues, that automatically we would take the opposite stand on all issues?

Trump is odious to Liberals on a number of important issues, like fairness, justice, experience, logic, and truth, just to name a few.  He has no respect for anything or anyone other than himself.  Many of his "proposals" (really blustering statements of what he will do--and it'll be "HUGE!" :) ) are the antithesis of what America stands for.  We recognize a potential disaster in the making from a mile away.

No one knows that Trump truly believes.  Any comments about liberal issues have as much weight of being true as his conservative comments, perhaps less (since he does represent the party Conservatives embrace).  We don't trust him to fulfill any of those.

What we truly cannot understand is why Republicans trust him--at all.

Fenring

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2016, 12:15:23 PM »
We aren't afraid of him being credibly conservative.  I would gladly take McCain or Romney right now.

Um...not me. McCain is about my zeroth choice for anything, possibly even below Jeb Bush!

Al and WS, I think Seriati's point is that if Trump actually is lying about being a conservative to troll the GOP and get elected then the liberals can in some sense rest easy that they won't be getting a real conservative if he's elected. In other words, if the claims of the left are accurate, that he makes things up and says whatever nonsense will get him through the day, then it seems reasonable to assume that his general positions in the past will still be his positions when he's elected. That would place him as a centrist or maybe somewhat right-wing Democrat, he is just content to lie about his beliefs to undermine the GOP convention. Granted, that assumes he isn't sincere about his beliefs at this point, but if he IS sincere then that dispels an entire set of complaints against him (and yet leaves us with an array of positions the left actually does fear).

Wayward Son

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Re: michael Moore predicts Trump victory
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2016, 01:33:05 PM »
Al and WS, I think Seriati's point is that if Trump actually is lying about being a conservative to troll the GOP and get elected then the liberals can in some sense rest easy that they won't be getting a real conservative if he's elected. In other words, if the claims of the left are accurate, that he makes things up and says whatever nonsense will get him through the day, then it seems reasonable to assume that his general positions in the past will still be his positions when he's elected. That would place him as a centrist or maybe somewhat right-wing Democrat, he is just content to lie about his beliefs to undermine the GOP convention. Granted, that assumes he isn't sincere about his beliefs at this point, but if he IS sincere then that dispels an entire set of complaints against him (and yet leaves us with an array of positions the left actually does fear).

It's those array of positions that makes Seriati's position so ludicrous.  It's "funny" that "the Left still acts like its the absolute end of the world if [Trump would] get elected" when Trump says some of the most outrageous things to the Left's point of view?  Since Trump isn't a die-hard Conservative, he may seem like a "centrist" to Seriati.  But to the Left, he's still far, far Right, and perhaps further Right than some of those die-hard Conservatives!  :o