Author Topic: Trump & Taiwan  (Read 23642 times)

Fenring

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2016, 04:21:03 PM »
Did Trump answer the question – its understandable IMO that Lester did not think so, but if you remove the clutter he did. and it works because most people are going to talk about the clutter and confusion and in the end see what they want to see.

Actually this is a far less cluttered response than I've heard him give on other subjects. Part of the beauty of offering clutter as a standard accompaniment to any answer is that when he lacks something to say at a particular moment he can still offer the clutter and since the answer will look mostly the same as when the clutter comes alongside a real answer, it obscures the difference between a real answer and a non-answer. Since most of his detractors get into a huff over the clutter itself the object of their aggravation will be present in both cases and therefore they will fail to properly address the presence or lack of a real point being made. He distracts them from focusing on the times when he doesn't really have anything to say, and they therefore assume he never has anything to say, thus making criticism of him mostly nonconstructive.

Contrast this with Clinton when asked questions for which she had no good answer, where the lack of clutter in her manner of speaking made such instances very blatant as evasions of the question, which I think lost her a lot of good will. For instance, in the primaries when Bernie asked her about how people could trust her policy on Wall Street when the banks were her biggest contributors, her reply about having been right there in NYC during 9/11 working with Wall Street resounded as a giant dodge and an almost bizarre dog whistle to "9/11!!!" without that symbol having any contextual meaning as an answer to that question. When Trump dodges a question it can be hard to tell that he's actually done so since parsing any of his statements tends to take a little bit of consideration and isn't obvious at first glance. It won't hit you over the head as a dodge like Clinton's dodges did.

So I guess his tactics were sound? Regardless, as rightleft pointed out, if you see past the smokescreen he often does present a definite case that overall is fairly consistent over time.

rightleft22

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2016, 04:37:16 PM »
You should try following his legal depositions.

The tactics work however in my opinion are dangerous

Trump has a preference in creating a competitive environment that keeps people uncertain with I think that the belief that opportunity arrives from chaos.

I would bet the China is at this moment scratching their heads wondering how to “work” with Trump

D.W.

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2016, 04:43:17 PM »
I like clutter over obfuscation I guess for what you are describing. 

That this tactic is appealing to or is effective against anyone baffles me.  I HOPE that the impression I get, is a tool used by him to make one underestimate him. 

Maybe I chose the wrong word with obfuscation as I can see how this does fit.  You are right that Clinton seems almost physically pained when she must state clearly an unambiguously a position that isn't overwhelmingly popular.  Trump doesn't have this problem.  Being clear?  Well ya, he isn't good at that, but he WILL state an opinion.

My problem with him is when he does flat out lie, or change position, or people have to translate what he meant, or we are told to ignore some parts of his statements, I don't know how his fans/allies/voters decide what IS legitimate.

On the example above, he is obviously for taxing foreign goods as part of getting a better deal.  Or at least forcing them to remove their tax on ours.  Fair enough.  But will he push for it?  Can he get anywhere with it?  Is it just something that sounds good, makes the crowd cheer and he doesn't give a poop beyond that?

Can we "trust" Trump to do anything that doesn't directly benefit him either financially or in prestige, or even just attention in the case of negative press?  Obviously those who voted for him think so.  Or... think that what's good for him will rise their tide as well?

Is a clear statement you don't believe better than a statement you THINK said what you wanted to hear?  Maybe that's a crutch Trump is doing us a favor and removing.  If he fails to deliver, he can't weasel his way out of a statement as easily as others.  Then again, "I never said that." flat denial, seems to be in character even with audio or video evidence...

He will make unambiguous statements, but does HE believe it (even in the moment) or does he just tell the audience what they want to hear?  I can't tell.

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2016, 04:57:36 PM »
I had never looked at the VAT that way. It actually is a valid argument.

Problem is we can't just slap a Federal VAT on everything without an amendment to the constitution more likely than not. In theory he could try to please a universal trade tariff in place commensurate with the Corporate Tax rate "to make things fair" but we have treaties which prevent that... and such a tariff would potentially be bad in other ways that a VAT may not inherently be.

But as to our defense agreements as mentioned earlier: We have "trip wire" troop presences in Germany, South Korea, and Japan, as well as irregular presence in other nations. If those nations get attacked, presumably our troops would be involved, thus automatically engaging us in the war.

Taiwan has no such trip-wire, although they have stronger defense agreements with us than Ukraine does.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2016, 05:19:49 PM »
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Problem is we can't just slap a Federal VAT on everything without an amendment to the constitution

Commerce clause. No amendment necessary.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2016, 05:20:51 PM »
I actually think that Trump is right with regard to getting nukes to South Korea Japan and Taiwan

TheDrake

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2016, 05:29:28 PM »
You get a nuke! YOU get a nuke! Everybody gets a nuke!

Given our track record of having our own weapons pointed back at us, maybe not so much. Not to mention, this is a highly provocative move that could lead to pre-emptive attacks by China and North Korea while they have the nuclear advantage. After all, it is precisely that action that precipitated the Cuban Missile Crisis. Giving "friend" states nukes pushes the needle into the red instantly.


Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2016, 05:54:25 PM »
Cuban missile crisis was successful for Russians, remember?

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2016, 05:57:41 PM »
Cuban missile crisis was successful for Russians, remember?

You're not supposed to remember the turkey.

Wayward Son

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2016, 06:09:06 PM »
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Did Trump answer the question – its understandable IMO that Lester did not think so, but if you remove the clutter he did. and it works because most people are going to talk about the clutter and confusion and in the end see what they want to see.

Your sentence is an oxymoron, rightleft.

If Trump answered the question, then people would not be able to "see what they want to see."  They would know what the answer is, and there would be little if no room for interpretation.

As an political tactic, it is an effective one.  His supporters believe he supports what they want, regardless of whether he actually does or not.  And because he sows confusion with his "truthful hyperbole," his detractors have nothing solid to criticize.  He just denies saying it, or says they misinterpreted what he said (a powerful tactic, since no one can agree on exactly what he said).  It can certainly win an election.  He really is the politician's politician.  ::)

But as a leadership tactic, it is horrible.  His allies and opponents don't know what he means, so they don't know what he intends to do.  Which means you can't come to an agreement with the guy, because you don't know what he's agreeing to.  >:(  So all you're left with is to see what he does and fight him afterward if you don't like it.

This is the tactic of a con man, not a President.  But many people "saw what they wanted to see," so he's now our President. :(

Seriati

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2016, 07:43:19 PM »
This is why I find your alarmism on Trump so unpersuasive.  I'm not sure I've heard a politician get forced to answer a question that they don't want to answer, yet because Trump does so in a slightly different manner its a problem?  Honestly, how many times have we heard a debate answer that answers the prior question, or a completely different question, or a strawman?  Pretty much every time a politician answers a question.

I tend to think we can rely on Trump to act when his self interest doesn't demand he acts, not sure we can rely on him to act against his self interest.  But there was no choice in the general election if that was the standard you were pursuing, maybe not even in the primary.

yossarian22c

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2016, 11:19:58 PM »
I'm sure I'll have plenty to criticize Trump on in the future but this call was coordinated with Taiwan.  Taiwan is taking the big risks here with their safety and security, not us.  So if they want to talk with Trump and rock the boat in their waters that is their choice.  I don't see this as a masterful stroke of diplomacy but IMO it isn't some grave threat to the US that I am going to get hot and bothered about.  If he had cold called the president of Taiwan then I would be outraged because that wouldn't be his risk to take but if Taiwan wants to talk its their heads sitting over the chopping block, not ours.

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2016, 05:24:33 AM »
The unreported/under reported thing in all this is evidently China flew a group of Nuclear Capable Bombers around Taiwan (staying in international airspace) on "a reconnaissance mission" until Japan scrambled fighters and helped chased them off. The first time China has evidently ever done something like that.

Timing? A week before the phone call with Trump.

Something tells me they weren't particularly happy with the Obama Administration response they were getting.

Seriati

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2016, 10:01:54 AM »
Based on what?  In what way, other than recognition, is Taiwan not a country?  One of the basic premises (or lies, if you prefer) of the UN is the right of self determination.  Is it your contention, that free from threat of force, the people of Taiwan would not elect to be an independent country?

In what way, other than the threat of force, is Texas not a country? It is a group of people, many of whom would like to be independent of the US, and many who don't for a variety of reasons.

Is this intended as a serious response?  Honestly, Texans have a streak of independence but Texas doesn't act like a country in any meaningful sense.

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If you're going to beat that drum, then Tibet is a much better example of an embarrassment for the global community. So is Palestine. I'm sure I could find other examples.

Agree on Tibet, much tougher to help a landlocked oppressed country that is surrounded on 3 borders by the country that conquered it, than it is for the world's most dominant naval power of all time to help an island country.  However, if that's where you want to spend your energy I won't disagree.

Palestine on the other hand doesn't fit this narrative, and has less sympathy from me.  Specifically whether you recognize them as a country or not, their continued hostility and attacks on another country entitle that country to respond militarily.

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Of course your argument seems less about self-determination than "China. So bad."

If you say.  Of course, I've made the same arguments in the Middle East, Africa and South America, but it must just be China that I'm worried about.

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Nixon and other presidents understood that we could help ourselves and the Chinese people better without putting up our dukes and isolating those damn communists. As a result, China has a growing middle class more likely to hold their government accountable. Meanwhile, nations we've given the "build a wall" treatment to like North Korea and Cuba remain horrible actors stagnant. (ed.)

Nice strawman, show me anywhere I said we should isolate China.  We should support Taiwan's independence, if that's what they really want. 

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It's easy to point the finger at a rising nation and demanding that they respect the environment when your developed country has already finished their big dams, flooded valleys, and dredged your coasts.

It's easy to claim to support the environment and then make excuses for third world countries poisoning it faster than others can fix it.  Even if what you say is true, there's no excuse for subsidizing that destruction by deliberately encouraging companies to expand in those jurisdictions because of the costs they can save (some of which are human, but many of which are environmental). 

China has a horrid environmental record, and they haven't even committed to slowing the rate of increase in the damage they are causing for more than a decade.  Think about that, they are deliberately increasing their rate of damage currently.  You're expressing a lot of first world angst, but your position only makes sense if you'd agree that you'd not change the way the first world acted in the past if you could do so with your current knowledge.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

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It's easy to point the finger and demand that a rising nation stop claiming part of the nearby ocean when your developed country has already claimed domination over the entire Western Hemisphere, in large part Europe, and a good chunk of the Far East.

Frankly, the idea that anyone should be allowed to build a fake island to claim ocean resources that should be belong to the entire world is insane.  Put aside the environmental concern, if this is going to be the rule then we, and our allies should also, as a matter of national interest and security start building islands ourselves everywhere we can.  Heck, let's solve 2 issues at once, we build fake islands, and new illegal immigrants can get automatic citizenship if they agree to populate them to establish our claims. 

TheDrake

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2016, 10:04:44 AM »
Cuban missile crisis was successful for Russians, remember?

Sure. You can also draw to an inside straight.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 10:07:04 AM by TheDrake »

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2016, 10:17:47 AM »
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t's easy to point the finger at a rising nation and demanding that they respect the environment when your developed country has already finished their big dams, flooded valleys, and dredged your coasts

See, that right there is why lefties lost the election to people that were sick of their crap:  global warming is a national security issue, but white guilt masturbation is so much more important than saving our kids or the planet.


TheDrake

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2016, 10:38:42 AM »
Seriati, I'm only addressing arguments you are making in this thread, not what you might have said at other times and other places. Here, I've only seen you gathering multiple arguments for why China is a bad hombre. But I may have misinterpreted.

Are you arguing we should support Taiwan because of the rule of self-determination, or because China needs to be opposed for environmental reasons and potential expansionist policy?

Taking Taiwan's side isn't exactly isolationism, but it trends in that direction. Bullying other nations on their environmental impact is pretty rich, considering how many international efforts on environment have been thwarted or muted because of US opposition or lack of involvement.

China will have plenty of incentive and opportunity to handle environmental issues. Examining only Co2, we see emission per capita of 7.6t in China, and 16.5t in the US. China's own estimate of the cost of pollution at 3-10% of gross national income. I don't think they'll ignore that indefinitely.

Artificial islands aren't unique to China, of course. Dubai's hard at work on islands too. Israel has considered plans to build offshore islands.

There are artificial reefs in Japan that support up to 20 times greater biomass than the same size natural reefs. It is interesting to also note that oil and gas rigs support 27 times more biomass than natural reefs. So instead of telling somebody on the other side of the planet what they ought to be doing, maybe we should spend our energy doing more offshore drilling. ;)

Watery dwellings

I will concede that Texas doesn't have nearly the amount of independent qualities of Taiwan, and that other nations like the UK and Canada have had secession referenda that should be the preferred way of dealing with people that would rather not be part of their parent country anymore. I still say that Taiwan has the choice to declare it is independent or not, whatever the circumstances, and pre-emptive recognition is pretty stupid when you're gambling with the lives and welfare of the people of Taiwan. Not that that has happened yet. Trump took this call at the request of Taiwan. Hopefully it will stay in control and not become a pawn in Trump's larger anti-China stance.

TheDrake

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2016, 10:39:53 AM »
See, that right there is why lefties lost the election to people that were sick of their crap:  global warming is a national security issue, but white guilt masturbation is so much more important than saving our kids or the planet.

Nice turn of phrase. But when our per-capita carbon emission is three times higher, it is current guilt and we're killing the planet way more than China.

Greg Davidson

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2016, 10:40:22 AM »
A bigger concern is how this affects calculations within domestic political factions in China, and what implications that has for dealing with North Korea. 

Seriati

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2016, 10:48:42 AM »
See, that right there is why lefties lost the election to people that were sick of their crap:  global warming is a national security issue, but white guilt masturbation is so much more important than saving our kids or the planet.

Nice turn of phrase. But when our per-capita carbon emission is three times higher, it is current guilt and we're killing the planet way more than China.

Poor of use of simplistic logic.  If we have three times greater carbon emissions and 5 times greater efficiency, then what you just described is a good thing, not the bad thing you claim.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2016, 10:54:32 AM »
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Nice turn of phrase. But when our per-capita carbon emission is three times higher, it is current guilt and we're killing the planet way more than China

See now that's why the Righties get away with saying that your global warming argument is a joke.  Because you case it on white guilt and political correctness rather on the science.  If you followed the actual science, you would not pretend that emissions were more dangerous than deforestation of the oceans.


TheDrake

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2016, 10:55:04 AM »
I don't understand how we could be more efficient and emit three times more CO2 per capita. Just because China has the most people doesn't mean they deserve the most blame.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2016, 10:57:49 AM »
I don't understand how we could be more efficient and emit three times more CO2 per capita. Just because China has the most people doesn't mean they deserve the most blame.

Stop the emissions brainwashing and pay attention to the ONGOING murder of the forests and the reefs.  Leftwashers want us to believe we haven't the right to raise a finger to save them because of what other white people did before the science. But while we can't change history, we might affect the present.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 11:00:08 AM by Pete at Home »

Seriati

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2016, 11:01:32 AM »
Seriati, I'm only addressing arguments you are making in this thread, not what you might have said at other times and other places. Here, I've only seen you gathering multiple arguments for why China is a bad hombre. But I may have misinterpreted.

Are you arguing we should support Taiwan because of the rule of self-determination, or because China needs to be opposed for environmental reasons and potential expansionist policy?

It wasn't till my third post that I even mentioned China's bad acts.  If it was unclear, we should support Taiwan because of the right of self-determination.

I brought up the other points about China in response to the Real Politik arguments that are being made on here that we have to sacrifice what's right with respect to Taiwan to appease China.  I pointed out that our appeasement has got us nothing real, just increased the bullying behavior of China over time as its military and economic power increases.  People and countries respond to incentives and learn the lessons you teach (whether you mean them to or not), and the lesson we are teaching China is that we will grant it what it wants (whether right or wrong) if we think the incremental difference is not worth the risk, without any consideration that the series of increments over time is greater than the risk we sought to avoid in the first place.

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Taking Taiwan's side isn't exactly isolationism, but it trends in that direction. Bullying other nations on their environmental impact is pretty rich, considering how many international efforts on environment have been thwarted or muted because of US opposition or lack of involvement.

What's rich is claiming that international feel good "environmental" efforts that do nothing real for the environment but have massive economic redistributionist effects should be supported, and that failure to do so is an environmental record.

The net impact of Kyoto, a favorite of mine, was to harm the environment.  As is any measure that caps efficient first world production in favor of slash and burn third world production.  Quit falling for symbolic victories.

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Artificial islands aren't unique to China, of course. Dubai's hard at work on islands too. Israel has considered plans to build offshore islands.

Neither of which is doing so as part of an expansionistic plan to grab world ocean resources, which makes that a false equivalence.  Unless you think the motivations are the same for two tiny densely populated countries with no room to grow and a country that is focusing its efforts on military use and economic exclusion zones?

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I will concede that Texas doesn't have nearly the amount of independent qualities of Taiwan, and that other nations like the UK and Canada have had secession referenda that should be the preferred way of dealing with people that would rather not be part of their parent country anymore. I still say that Taiwan has the choice to declare it is independent or not, whatever the circumstances, and pre-emptive recognition is pretty stupid when you're gambling with the lives and welfare of the people of Taiwan. Not that that has happened yet. Trump took this call at the request of Taiwan. Hopefully it will stay in control and not become a pawn in Trump's larger anti-China stance.

How familiar with the situation are you?  There's nothing in what I said that requires pre-emptive recognition.  We should make clear though that China's pre-emptive intimidation is not okay.

TheDrake

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2016, 11:01:42 AM »
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Nice turn of phrase. But when our per-capita carbon emission is three times higher, it is current guilt and we're killing the planet way more than China

See now that's why the Eighties say that your global warming argument is a joke.  Because you case it on white guilt and political correctness rather on the science.  If you followed the actual science, you would not pretend that emissions were more dangerous than deforestation of the oceans.

Okay, that's fair. And I'm okay going pound for pound on destruction of marine life, I just don't have any ready statistics. But as far as threats go, I can find one quick list that ranks them:

1. Overfishing
2. Coastal pollution
3. Habitat destruction
4. Warming
5. Acidification

China is definitely involved in all of these. But you can also find other countries contributing on all factors. Singling out China is like calling somebody out for cheating more than you are at the poker table.

What you call white guilt, I call integrity and not calling the kettle black when you are the pot.

D.W.

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2016, 11:03:15 AM »
I don't understand how we could be more efficient and emit three times more CO2 per capita. Just because China has the most people doesn't mean they deserve the most blame.

Stop the emissions brainwashing and pay attention to the ONGOING murder of the forests and the reefs.  Leftwashers want us to believe we haven't the right to raise a finger to save them because of what other white people did before the science. But while we can't change history, we might affect the present.

Just to be clear, are you referring to the argument that we can't stop developing nations doing the same destructive stuff we did?  Is that a "leftwasher" argument?

Seriati

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2016, 11:03:55 AM »
I don't understand how we could be more efficient and emit three times more CO2 per capita. Just because China has the most people doesn't mean they deserve the most blame.

Because efficiency is determined as a rate, where as emissions are based on volume.  First world production is held to the highest environmental standards, with less pollution generated per unit produced.  Making 10k cars in the first world produces far less pollution than doing the same in the third world.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #77 on: December 07, 2016, 11:07:53 AM »
By "we" you mean dead whites?  So it's OK for China to commit genocide, since "we" did it?  If that's what you mean, yes, that's leftwashing. Collective guilt.  And if you believe that climate change is a national and or global security issue, then you need to climb out of the leftwasher and stand for something.

D.W.

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #78 on: December 07, 2016, 11:13:04 AM »
Cease fire Pete.  Just asking what YOU meant.  Sorry if I insulted you by lumping you into "we".  Also pleased to learn all that... unsavory behavior is in our country's past.   ::)

TheDrake

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #79 on: December 07, 2016, 11:13:28 AM »
I don't understand how we could be more efficient and emit three times more CO2 per capita. Just because China has the most people doesn't mean they deserve the most blame.

Because efficiency is determined as a rate, where as emissions are based on volume.  First world production is held to the highest environmental standards, with less pollution generated per unit produced.  Making 10k cars in the first world produces far less pollution than doing the same in the third world.

That suggests a value judgement that says, it is okay for you to use a lot more energy per person, as long as the impact of the unit energy is lower. I understand it now, not sure I think that is a true statement. "Make fewer cars" is an equally valid demand compared to "make cars more efficiently".

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2016, 11:17:10 AM »
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Nice turn of phrase. But when our per-capita carbon emission is three times higher, it is current guilt and we're killing the planet way more than China

See now that's why the Eighties say that your global warming argument is a joke.  Because you case it on white guilt and political correctness rather on the science.  If you followed the actual science, you would not pretend that emissions were more dangerous than deforestation of the oceans.

Okay, that's fair. And I'm okay going pound for pound on destruction of marine life, I just don't have any ready statistics. But as far as threats go, I can find one quick list that ranks them:

1. Overfishing
2. Coastal pollution
3. Habitat destruction
4. Warming
5. Acidification

China is definitely involved in all of these. But you can also find other countries contributing on all factors. Singling out China is like calling somebody out for cheating more than you are at the poker table.

What you call white guilt, I call integrity and not calling the kettle black when you are the pot.

Destruction of marine life generally, bad.  But I am talking specifically here of destruction of Carbon Sinks, where China is the current #1 bad actor, by a very long ways. 

Destroy the carbon sinks in the ocean, and no more ocean O2.  EVERYTHING visible in the ocean dies. 

Saying we can't "single out" China on oceanic destruction is like saying we can't single out the Nazis on aggression or genocide.  As Jackson said at Nuremberg, we recognize these aren't the first bad actors and we are willing to be judged for future acts by the same standards we mete out today.

D.W.

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2016, 11:19:39 AM »
We let technological advances excuse our lifestyle though.  Feedback loop really.  IF we need cars, then it makes sense to build them where it is least damaging to do so.*

*Unless you can do so at such a savings that you can mitigate or even reverse that damage with the profit elsewhere.

The catch is our goal is STILL not to mitigate or reverse environmental damage.  If it were, we'd be gifting developing nations with nuclear, solar and wind power (in that order) in exchange for them NOT building their own dirty power plants.  We'd NOT be paying them exceedingly well to deforest for export sales.

While I do not feel quite the urgency Pete does on the oceanic repair/defense front it DOES have the advantage of being something we can mostly tackle / engineer without having to radically change the way people live their lives.  (or catch up to an improved standard of living)

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #82 on: December 07, 2016, 11:32:35 AM »
The great wall of Sand isn't doing anything for Chinese lifestyle, only Chinese pride.

D.W.

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #83 on: December 07, 2016, 11:34:23 AM »
Which is why it's something more likely to be "fixable" than telling a country to stop developing/polluting so darn much.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #84 on: December 07, 2016, 11:47:04 AM »
Of course.  Aside from the fact that fighting deforestation is better for the planet than fighting emissions, it's also easier. Give machine guns to Brazil forest natives. Spike the truffula trees. Soak rhino horns in ricin
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 11:56:32 AM by Pete at Home »

D.W.

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #85 on: December 07, 2016, 11:56:39 AM »
You can have the rhino horn poisoning job...

Tree spiking COULD work, if the spike-ers weren't caught/attacked.
Arming natives COULD work, but you assume they would win open conflict.  Also, there is the truth that those who can't be ignored, or defeated, will likely be bribed/paid off.

You only ever solve these things by reducing demand or increasing cost.  Maybe those measures accomplish the latter enough to make them turn away from it as a business.  But if demand is still high... it's doubtful. 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 11:59:13 AM by D.W. »

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2016, 11:58:44 AM »
You can have the rhino horn poisoning job...

I'll take it. It's the moderate way. :)

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2016, 11:59:15 AM »
I don't understand how we could be more efficient and emit three times more CO2 per capita. Just because China has the most people doesn't mean they deserve the most blame.

If you measure CO2 Emitted against $ of GDP, the US isn't the worst offender by a large margin. It also is where the efficiency claim come from. Yes, we're a high energy/high emissions economy, but we're also producing high value per unit of emission.

D.W.

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #88 on: December 07, 2016, 12:00:42 PM »
You can have the rhino horn poisoning job...

I'll take it. It's the moderate way. :)
Nothing moderate about going all Crocodile Dundee on the animal with a poisoned paintbrush in your hand.  :P  That's pretty freakin extreme!

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2016, 12:01:19 PM »
How did we get offlTrump and China to international flatulence?

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2016, 12:01:54 PM »
You can have the rhino horn poisoning job...

I'll take it. It's the moderate way. :)
Nothing moderate about going all Crocodile Dundee on the animal with a poisoned paintbrush in your hand.  :P  That's pretty freakin extreme!

Extremely moderate :)

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2016, 12:06:35 PM »
Of course.  Aside from the fact that fighting deforestation is better for the planet than fighting emissions, it's also easier. Give machine guns to Brazil forest natives. Spike the truffula trees. Soak rhino horns in ricin

Deforestation isn't happening, the amount of woodland/forest is increasing, not decreasing.

Destruction of rain forests and "old growth" forests, on the other hand is an ongoing thing.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2016, 12:12:00 PM »
Of course.  Aside from the fact that fighting deforestation is better for the planet than fighting emissions, it's also easier. Give machine guns to Brazil forest natives. Spike the truffula trees. Soak rhino horns in ricin

Deforestation isn't happening, the amount of woodland/forest is increasing, not decreasing.

Destruction of rain forests and "old growth" forests, on the other hand is an ongoing thing.

Hands up anyone that didn't previously understand that I meant destruction of the planet's primary carbon sinks , is old growth forests and coral reefs?

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #93 on: December 07, 2016, 12:18:30 PM »
Hands up anyone that didn't previously understand that I meant destruction of the planet's primary carbon sinks , is old growth forests and coral reefs?

I'm not sure about that, trees that logged to become lumber for buildings, or even furniture could be a very long time releasing most of their CO2 back into the atmosphere. It isn't unheard of for maintained wooden structures to last well over a century. Which isn't to mention many wooden structures that get torn down tend to end up buried in a landfill. They might become part of a methane gas capture cycle, but mostly, that CO2 which was captured in that wood is essentially in the ground to stay until someone decides to dig it up again.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2016, 12:22:42 PM »
Your opinion is noted, but you understand that I and many climatologists opine differently and you understand what *I* meant by deforestation, right?

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2016, 12:29:09 PM »
Your opinion is noted, but you understand that I and many climatologists opine differently and you understand what *I* meant by deforestation, right?

What you may or may not mean, and what others will interpret it as saying can be two very different things. And as threads around here tend to be dug up later, our currently understanding that doesn't mean someone digging it up in 2 or 3 years will.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2016, 12:43:27 PM »
It feels like a word game to block me from expressing an opinion that you can't disprove. 

When grown up educated people debate, it's generally understood that if someone defines a term in the context of an argument, that this is what they mean by the word when they use it later in the same discussion.  Future readers will understand this if they are educated.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2016, 01:01:06 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure about that, trees that logged to become lumber for buildings, or even furniture could be a very long time releasing most of their CO2 back into the atmosphere. It isn't unheard of for maintained wooden structures to last well over a century

That would be a marvelous counterargument if anyone here was saying we shouldn't use wood for construction.

But the issue is large scale destruction of old growth forests and coral reefs to "reclaim" land.


Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2016, 01:05:03 PM »
In case you were serious about tree farms replacing old growth forests, it's a matter of simple geometry that an older taller wider tree creates a greater volume of new wood per year as it's diameter and width increase. And that's not even counting secondary growth that occurs in old growth forests.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump & Taiwan
« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2016, 02:45:03 PM »
I had never looked at the VAT that way. It actually is a valid argument.

Problem is we can't just slap a Federal VAT on everything without an amendment to the constitution more likely than not.

Based on what case-law?  Wickard makes the CC more than broad enough to cover a VAT.

Let's see if Seriat, out most conservative attorney, agrees