Author Topic: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers  (Read 26834 times)

Greg Davidson

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #250 on: February 24, 2018, 01:19:32 AM »
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Sources in the FBI were saying that Comey was being given the cold shoulder by the entire Bureau, with people walking past him in the hallway declining to even greet him. I've read accounts from at least a few agents saying that in their opinion he disgraced the Bureau.

Of course I don't work there so I can only go by what I've read, but if these accounts are accurate then his firing was an utter necessity.

Think about those sources - and then look at some actual data.

At the bottom of this article are all 100+ pages of FOIA'd emails showing exactly how those in the FBI reacted to the firing of Comey https://lawfareblog.com/i-hope-instance-fake-news-fbi-messages-show-bureaus-real-reaction-trump-firing-james-comey

You can either believe that there is an incredible conspiracy going on at every level, or that the President and his Republican shills told some outrageous lies that your sources have picked up and presented as if it were the truth

Greg Davidson

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #251 on: February 24, 2018, 01:35:16 AM »
With many fewer investigations and much less time than was spent investigating the Obama Administration, we now have far more examples of criminal behavior in the Trump Administration being so obvious that multiple people are confessing their guilt.

My question: what are all the ways that Republican apologists will try to dodge the clear reality that their conspiracy theories about crime in the Obama Administration were bogus and that their votes have brought in a far more corrupt and law-breaking Administration?


rightleft22

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #253 on: March 01, 2018, 11:56:02 AM »
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It is because the media landscape is so mired in sludge that various X factors can come to have weight in people's decision-making…
I think you need to better define media landscape so we might better understand how we are being manipulated. My opinion is that we do not yet understand how the newer communication technologies are shaping society.  Because we don’t understand it we are easily manipulated by it.

Within the hour after the Florida school shooting Russian social media boots came started disseminating commissary theories.  Where is the movement to stop such bots – should we make it a criminal offence to use such bots which only purpose can be to artificially manipulate a narrative? 

We are becoming more and more dependent on technology acting as our memory and memory is a trickster     

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #254 on: March 01, 2018, 06:43:48 PM »
... and more of Russia's ongoing attacks against US society:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/russian-bots-florida-shooting-intl/index.html

That CNN Article is mildly confusing, in one part they seem to be talking about Russian Bots targeting american issues, in another they're evidently talking about Bots in general(could be anybody), and then they cycle back to Russian Bots being suspected in issues involving other nations.

But it seems that the Russian bots targeting a US audience seem to be "well targeted" in that their favored topics seem to play into the tinfoil-hat crowd, as it promotes further distrust of the government and "the deep state." While it also tries to stir up the gun-control crowd at the same time, I guess to get them to further agitate the tinfoil group?

I'm more amused that they think the tinfoil-hat crowd has that much influence on politics in the United States, or that they're likely to vote for either major party to start with.

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #255 on: March 01, 2018, 06:56:13 PM »
As for suggestions, here's one from Electoral-vote.com.

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It is not impossible to combat troll farms, but it would take a change of mindset. As a starter, the social media companies could require anyone opening an account (or keeping an existing account) to upload an image of their drivers' license, passport, or other ID. Then they would have to weed out duplicate accounts. Finally, they would have to verify the name and number of the uploaded documents with the issuing authority to catch forgeries. Postings could still be anonymous, but the companies could make it much more difficult for trolls to open accounts. If the social media companies have no interest in something like this, Congress could require it by law and impose heavy penalties for noncompliance.

While the idea is laudable, it has one major problem. Doing that is high on the list of things you are told not to do with your government issued IDentification because once that copy leaves your control, you have zero control over where it goes from there. (That isn't to say businesses and people don't "do it all the time" but it is something they're not supposed to be doing.)

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And seriously, jasonr, are you saying we can do nothing about foreign governments influencing our elections, and we should just give up?  Let anyone sow discord and disinformation from fraudulent accounts without restraint or resistance?  Just pretend it really doesn't matter, even though Russia is paying premium salaries to these guys to influence our elections?  Rely on the belief that Russian intelligence is silly and ineffective?

Daylight seems to be a good first step. For most of those activities, that is probably more than sufficient. Now depending on how extreme the efforts are, escalation may be warranted. But most of the examples given here, simply giving them public exposure is probably more than enough.

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #256 on: March 01, 2018, 07:10:23 PM »
One the one hand, the election was close enough that if the meddling had any effect, then they could have easily affected the outcome. The result was determined by a few tens of thousand of votes in a few states. On the other hand, if the Russians didn't have much influence in the relevant states then they could have had a tremendous effect on how votes were cast nationally without affecting the outcome of the election at all. Figuring out where the "truth" lies between both extremes will probably take really fancy math if it's possible at all.

I'd like to suggest that the point of sanctions aren't to directly prevent future actions but to increase the perceived cost. They probably won't interfere with the Russian's ability to interfere in 2018 but, if they are implemented, the Russian may choose not interfere again.

With the result they obtained, you'd have to impose absolutely crippling sanctions against Russia in order to achieve your desired goal.

And imposing those sanctions would be likely to harm American interests in both the short and long term than benefit them, which would then just help the Russians even further.

Sorry, but the 2016 electoral outcome, once paired with the Democratic response to it, has resulted in a "No matter what the United States does in response, Russia wins" outcome.

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #257 on: March 01, 2018, 07:13:58 PM »
The sanctions are listed in the bit you quoted "freezing assets, such as property, revoking US visas and banning exports from the United States to those sanctioned." It probably won't affect the person paid to go trolling but might complicate things for the people who ran the company or members of the Russian government.

So you believe that the property of foreign people should be seized for either posting content that has an opinion about U.S. elections (for instance pro or anti a candidate) or for paying someone to do so? Do you believe that such posting is illegal under U.S. law? If not, do you believe that economics attacks against persons who haven't broken U.S. law is itself permissible under U.S. law?

Hey this might have merit, we could seize the rights J.K. Rowling has to the Harry Potter franchise in the United States given her posts on our domestic issues. That might be able to fund a couple tanks. =P

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #258 on: March 01, 2018, 07:19:04 PM »
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You're right.  I can't STOP this from happening again.  It's impossible.

Neither can I STOP all murder from happening again.  Therefore, we should close all prisons, shouldn't we?  Because we don't have any effective way of preventing murders and crime, we should just give up and accept it, shouldn't we?  Because the alternative is too terrible to contemplate...  ::)

Assuming, for argument's sake, you believe that trolling Facebook and posting fake articles is some awesome propaganda - the propagandist's equivalent to *murder* in its effectiveness, what pray tell do you propose to do to deter such an act? What punishment or sanction do you think can be imposed on Russians that would deter them from employing a form of propaganda so mighty that it can sway elections to the candidate of their choice?

The even better question is how he's going to impose the penalty upon said persons when they're nice and safe at home in Russia, where we have no jurisdiction, and as they're (alleged) to be operating under a Russian Government Aegis, the Russians are highly unlikely to extradite.

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #259 on: March 01, 2018, 07:37:05 PM »
With many fewer investigations and much less time than was spent investigating the Obama Administration, we now have far more examples of criminal behavior in the Trump Administration being so obvious that multiple people are confessing their guilt.

My question: what are all the ways that Republican apologists will try to dodge the clear reality that their conspiracy theories about crime in the Obama Administration were bogus and that their votes have brought in a far more corrupt and law-breaking Administration?

I believe I've commented more than a few times I expected "a Keystone Cops" routine from the Trump Admin, particularly early on. That some of their bumbling and fumbling crossed into the realm of criminality due to sometimes obscure, and other times not quite obscure reasons is hardly shocking. Of course, I didn't vote for the guy either.

That the Obama Admin otherwise seemed to get away scott-free is likewise not shocking. They were a highly sophisticated political organization with roots extending deeply into Chicago's Political Machine, with further ties into the Clinton Machine(via Hillary) which had to deal with intense Republican Scrutiny for 8 years. Additionally, adding in the adoring MSM coverage that Obama enjoyed and an very unusually tight political ship(virtually no leaks, at all, period), and is hardly shocking.

That people were extraordinarily tight-lipped about what want on in the Obama Whitehouse is perhaps one of the more disturbing aspects of his tenure.

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #260 on: March 01, 2018, 07:45:09 PM »
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It is because the media landscape is so mired in sludge that various X factors can come to have weight in people's decision-making…
I think you need to better define media landscape so we might better understand how we are being manipulated. My opinion is that we do not yet understand how the newer communication technologies are shaping society.  Because we don’t understand it we are easily manipulated by it.

Within the hour after the Florida school shooting Russian social media boots came started disseminating commissary theories.  Where is the movement to stop such bots – should we make it a criminal offence to use such bots which only purpose can be to artificially manipulate a narrative?

I think a big part of this is the decline of Newspaper subscriptions and the resultant loss of ad revenues. This also is impacting the major Television Networks as the DVR, and declining ratings in general(as people turn online for their news) is also sapping them of Advertising revenue as well.

News rooms are shrinking everywhere, and their ability to pay for talent to do actual investigative journalism has pretty much been reduced to the point of being almost non-existent. So instead you get a bunch of poorly paid field reporters, who may actually be "freelancers" with little actual freedom, who have little time to actually investigate before they report(because the 24 hour news cycles wants it naow!), and are typically more than satisfied with being on the scene and simply echoing back whatever the people they talk to(or find on social media/wiki) provide for them.

News isn't news anymore, it isn't coming from journalists who are trying to objectively report on what they find. It is now entertainment involving current events.

In that kind of environment, a Social Media Troll, of any origin, can cause all kinds of potential mayhem.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 07:47:44 PM by TheDeamon »

Gaoics79

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #261 on: April 06, 2018, 08:34:47 PM »
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/04/05/why-did-canada-expel-four-russian-diplomats-because-they-told-the-truth.html

This story is emblematic of the issue I have with this Russian angle. Here is another example of western politicians exploiting anti Russian animus to distract from their own political dirty laundry.

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Then, on Wednesday,Trudeau spilled the beans. The Russians are being punished for saying that Freeland’s grandfather was a Nazi collaborator during the Second World War.

Trudeau called this an effort “by Russian propagandists” to smear Freeland, which perhaps it was.

The only trouble with all of this is that the Russians were telling the truth. Freeland’s maternal grandfather, Michael Chomiak, was a Nazi collaborator during the Second World War.

Now don't get me wrong, having a Nazi collaborator as a grandfather is no crime, nor should it be a scandal in any significant sense, unless the politician goes out of her way to draw attention to it in some fashion.

But facts are facts, and it's ludicrous for the Canadian government, and Freeland herself, to claim that telling the truth about this is some kind of dishonesty. I also find the self-serving suggestion that this is an attack on Canadian democracy too cute by half. The Liberal government is exploiting anti Trump animus to portray any attack on their political stars as some kind of "attack" on Canada. Nothing is more disingenuous.

I don't know the complete context of the comments against Freeland, but even if I give her the benefit of the doubt and accept that these comments were out of left field and designed to "smear" her by bringing up an irrelevant bit of family history, flat out lying and calling it "disinformation" is answering a lesser evil with a greater one.

At the end of the day, dismissing unambiguous fact as "disinformation" or suggesting that the truth is a lie can never be an appropriate response to propaganda. Censorship of truth for the purpose of fighting propaganda is a self-defeating proposition.

We either live in a free society where people (including foreigners) can say what they want, or we don't.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 08:38:26 PM by jasonr »

Gaoics79

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #262 on: April 06, 2018, 08:47:06 PM »
I'll add that I never even heard this Nazi allegation until the Liberals expelled Russian diplomats and started lying about it publicly. If the Liberal Party's plan was to spread this "propaganda" far and wide giving it the maximum exposure possible - kudos to them for their genius.

Fenring

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #263 on: April 06, 2018, 09:35:00 PM »
The Russian tactic for the most part is to say true but irritating things; things that when released at certain times seem like an attack by Russia even though the 'attack' is in the form of true statements. I've seen this from Putin himself so many times that it's funny. The typical response is the kneejerk "we have to oppose this" response, whether that be in the form of denial, a counter-smear against Russia, calling it "propaganda" or other forms of disinformation. Basically Russia knows that the West is weak when it comes to admitting weakness (like many other countries) and will resort to fabrication to cover it up. China does the same thing all the time, but we expect it from them. Thus Russia is able in one swing to tell a painful truth and coax American into telling a lie, both of which serve to undermine America. And these politicians are so stupid and petty that they fall for it every time. Actually it's worse than that, because many are actively looking for excuses to levy sanctions to prevent Russia from competing in the oil market and to rattle sabers so that NATO can continue to be receive funding for bases and missiles on the Russian border.

To me the real question is who's playing whom. It seems that both Russia and the U.S. are satisfied to have a certain level of hostilities open at all times, maybe to each own's benefit. But if one side unilaterally ceased this behavior the tensions would evaporate, I think. I doubt Russia will stop taunting the U.S., and so it would be up to career politicians with skin in the game of profiting from hostile relations with Russia to make themselves stop it. So yeah, I don't know if that's going to happen. It would take a strong President to unilaterally tell the children it's enough, and to sit down with Russia and try to improve relations through serious measures. It can be done, but only if at least one side is willing to try.

yossarian22c

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #264 on: April 07, 2018, 10:38:51 AM »
The Russian tactic for the most part is to say true but irritating things; things that when released at certain times seem like an attack by Russia even though the 'attack' is in the form of true statements.

The other Russian tactics are:
1) invading their neighbors when they oust a corrupt president that was in Russia's pocket
2) assassinating Russian journalists that report negative things about the state
3) assassinating former agents or traitors to the Kremlin/Putin (often times outside of Russia)
4) jailing or barring from elections the leaders of the political opposition
5) engaging in cyber attacks designed to inflame tensions and animosity in other countries
6) dropping bombs on Syrian hospitals and civilians

but yeah everyone just hates on Russia b/c they tell inconvenient truths.

NobleHunter

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #265 on: April 07, 2018, 01:25:31 PM »
Don't forget blatantly lying about invading their neighbours.

Gaoics79

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #266 on: April 08, 2018, 09:44:58 AM »
The Russian tactic for the most part is to say true but irritating things; things that when released at certain times seem like an attack by Russia even though the 'attack' is in the form of true statements.

The other Russian tactics are:
1) invading their neighbors when they oust a corrupt president that was in Russia's pocket
2) assassinating Russian journalists that report negative things about the state
3) assassinating former agents or traitors to the Kremlin/Putin (often times outside of Russia)
4) jailing or barring from elections the leaders of the political opposition
5) engaging in cyber attacks designed to inflame tensions and animosity in other countries
6) dropping bombs on Syrian hospitals and civilians

but yeah everyone just hates on Russia b/c they tell inconvenient truths.

In the spirit of your comment, I'll respond by confirming your point that lying in response to Russian truthtelling is a legitimate response to Russia invading Ukraine etc...

yossarian22c

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #267 on: April 09, 2018, 08:08:28 AM »
The Russian tactic for the most part is to say true but irritating things; things that when released at certain times seem like an attack by Russia even though the 'attack' is in the form of true statements.

The other Russian tactics are:
1) invading their neighbors when they oust a corrupt president that was in Russia's pocket
2) assassinating Russian journalists that report negative things about the state
3) assassinating former agents or traitors to the Kremlin/Putin (often times outside of Russia)
4) jailing or barring from elections the leaders of the political opposition
5) engaging in cyber attacks designed to inflame tensions and animosity in other countries
6) dropping bombs on Syrian hospitals and civilians

but yeah everyone just hates on Russia b/c they tell inconvenient truths.

In the spirit of your comment, I'll respond by confirming your point that lying in response to Russian truthtelling is a legitimate response to Russia invading Ukraine etc...

I was responding to the part that said "The Russian tactic for the most part" which is the RT propaganda line about how Russia is just misunderstood and unjustly maligned for exposing inconvenient truths about the west.

I honestly don't care much about whose great grandparents were Nazi sympathizers or if someone felt the need to reflexively deny that kind of claim. Things like that are sometimes glossed over when the family history gets passed down. Or maybe they denied out of shame, who cares really. It was an opportunity for Russia to make someone look foolish and they took it.

The reason I posted as I did is the increasing number of times I've seen claims like that or similar in response the other Russian tactics. We had people here make the claim that the Russian nerve agent attack was a false flag operation against Russia b/c Putin is really just all about getting good PR for Russia and occasionally pointing out true but inconvenient things about the west.

TheDeamon

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #268 on: April 09, 2018, 12:07:00 PM »
The other Russian tactics are:
5) engaging in cyber attacks designed to inflame tensions and animosity in other countries

but yeah everyone just hates on Russia b/c they tell inconvenient truths.

In the case of "_____ has a grandparent who was a Nazi collaborator."

Being used "to inflame tensions" that tends to say a lot about the political dynamics at play within the country/countries in question.

That the Russians even thought that might provoke a response, never mind that actually it did. Says more bad things about the political environment in the western world than any number of poli-sci essays or studies ever could.

It isn't even that I agree with the point they(Russia) was trying to make, or goal they were pursuing, whichever the case may be. But a LOT of the political system on our side is rotten in a variety of ways, and having light brought to bear on the rot is a good thing, but only so long as the rot is cleared away and repaired, rather than covered over with a thing veneer.

"Identity politics" is rot. Identity politics is what makes Nazi-Collaborator grandparents somehow "Directly relevant" in the politics of their descendants.

Fenring

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Re: Comrade Trump and Russian insurgent hackers
« Reply #269 on: April 09, 2018, 12:32:04 PM »
"Identity politics" is rot. Identity politics is what makes Nazi-Collaborator grandparents somehow "Directly relevant" in the politics of their descendants.

Unless the person in question works for the same business or does the same type of thing the grandparents did. Then it might be relevant.