Author Topic: Cyber Showdown  (Read 56550 times)

TheDeamon

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #150 on: December 27, 2016, 10:29:29 AM »
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...but we finally have an electorate of "conservatives" who hate the left more than they love the country...
For me, this is the nut of it.  Liberals aren't any more perfect than non-liberals, no matter how much we admire ourselves in the mirror, but hate has never been an element of liberalism.

Of liberalism, agreed, but there is much illiberalism in contemporary leftism. When word like bigotry, hate crime and tolerance are redefined Pyr style to wink at some hatreds and not others, leftism became a platform for institutional hatred. People became immune, resistant. And the stage was set for Breast, Trump, Le Pen, and Darwin knows what next.

Pretty much, as that one expression goes "If you want to change happen in society, BE the change, and that starts with yourself." People who are genuine in their efforts for change towards a better way are generally going to be accepted by all. Problem is, once people start running up against hypocrites operating under that same banner, progress will stop in its tracks, and you may even start to see pushback occur.

Surprise surprise, the SJW community is rife with hypocrites, much of the "Civil Rights Movement" since the 1980's at the latest has also been rife with hypocracy. As such, it's hardly surprising that they're seeing pushback. People do not like getting talked down to by persons or groups that they view as being hypocritical.

Ostensibly being a "Christian nation" on top of all of that just makes it doubly so. Of all the people Christ and his disciples spoke about, the one group they were least kind towards were the hypocrites. Sadly, that also seems to be the one lesson that most Christians themselves have a hard time internalizing in their own personal actions. Which makes it unsurprising when they get pushback on their own pursuits as well.

Pete at Home

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #151 on: December 27, 2016, 10:52:38 AM »
I think it has more to do with moral inconsistency (hypocrisy) than government by hippopotamus (hypocracy) but otherwise agreed. :)

cherrypoptart

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #152 on: December 27, 2016, 03:12:17 PM »
Kasandra

"I'll measure his success by that and a number of other metrics, like not blowing up the world or losing half of Europe to Russia.  Until he achieves any of them, I'll be more than skeptical."

I accept that as a measure of a Trump failure on Russia.

If Russia annexes any more of Europe, or any more of anything, then that is a failure of the Trump Presidency.

Of course, by that measure, it is also a failure of Obama's Presidency that Russia conquered Crimea.

Also, if there is any sort of nuclear exchange, that will be another measure of a Trump Presidency failure.  Unless... unless it is Iran that starts it because of Obama's ridiculous deal with them.

So far, Trump's cabinet picks indicate that he is going to be an absolutely fantastic President. If the only thing he does after that is keep his word to undo everything that Obama has done, unless it is something that is really, really good of course, but I'm having a hard time coming up with that something, then Trump will be the best President of all time because he will have saved the Union from collapse. He'll be even better than Lincoln because though Lincoln did save the Union it took him hundreds of thousands of American lives to do it. Obama put us on a road to certain collapse, and the only correct course is the exact opposite of the one he charted, starting with securing the border and enforcing our laws instead of opening our arms to anarchy and chaos.

Kasandra

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #153 on: December 27, 2016, 03:58:51 PM »
You want to make sure that Obama shares the blame for any disaster Trump either commits or doesn't avoid.  I understand that.  But don't forget that you laid all of the failure in Iraq at Obama's feet, none to Bush.  Trump is your man, own it.  If he doesn't "undo" the problems in Iran, don't blame anyone else.  If he creates a global economic crisis by confronting China and failing to force them to his bidding, don't blame anyone else.  If he repeals Obamacare and 20 million people lose health insurance, don't blame anyone else.  The same goes for what he won't do, like building the wall or protecting social security, medicare or the environment. 

In other words, we live in an imperfect world with imperfect leaders.  As Pete put it so well, "...we finally have an electorate of "conservatives" who hate the left more than they love the country...".  But don't expect any sympathy when Trump *censored*s up.  You're one of them, so own him.

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So far, Trump's cabinet picks indicate that he is going to be an absolutely fantastic President.
That's a ringing endorsement of bias and incompetence, but hardly a surprise.

TheDeamon

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #154 on: December 27, 2016, 04:29:30 PM »
Wait, wasn't Obama "allowed" to blame nearly all of his 1st term problems on Bush? For that matter, he was still blaming many things on Bush going into his second term.

But now suddenly, since it's the Democrats who just lost the presidential office, everything that goes wrong is on Trump.

While the economic surge in activity that seems to have started building since the election? Yeah, I'm sure you'll be more than happy to give those positives to Obama. Rather than crediting the looming end of Obama's/Democratic economic policies as being the trigger.

Remarkable how it suddenly seemed to take off after the Democrats lost though. I guess we just didn't wait long enough for their policies to work?

Kasandra

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #155 on: December 27, 2016, 05:18:39 PM »
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Wait, wasn't Obama "allowed" to blame nearly all of his 1st term problems on Bush? For that matter, he was still blaming many things on Bush going into his second term.
Wait, didn't Obama dig the country out of the deepest economic crisis in 70 years that landed on his doorstep the day he took office?  Didn't he inherit two disastrous unending wars that had contributed to that crisis?  He can't blame Bush for the *censored*storm that he created?  What similar problems have Obama left for Trump?  Don't use Iran, because that is stable.  Don't use China, because Trump is going to overturn 20-30 years of economic policy.  Don't use Obamacare, because health care costs have risen more slowly under it than in the prior decade and 20 million additional people are covered than were before.  Maybe Trump can fix the auto bailout and bankrupt GM and somehow blame Obama. Republicans are still angry about what he did on that one.

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But now suddenly, since it's the Democrats who just lost the presidential office, everything that goes wrong is on Trump.
I think Trump has heralded just how badly he will handle things with his Cabinet picks.  You can't blame the wisdom, knowledge or experience of Ben Carson or Rick Perry on Obama.

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While the economic surge in activity that seems to have started building since the election? Yeah, I'm sure you'll be more than happy to give those positives to Obama. Rather than crediting the looming end of Obama's/Democratic economic policies as being the trigger.
What surge in economic activity?  The stock market has taken off, but employment has increased every month since the early days of Obama's Administration.  I'm sure a more generous observer would say that has had an impact on the economy, but Trump (or maybe even Romney) will take credit for any further increases and blame any job losses on Obama.

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Remarkable how it suddenly seemed to take off after the Democrats lost though. I guess we just didn't wait long enough for their policies to work?
I think you're saying that Democrats had no problem with what Trump said he would do if elected until 11/9.  Uh-huh.

LetterRip

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #156 on: December 27, 2016, 06:25:54 PM »
The stock market response is because Trump is going to let mergers go through that the Obama administration had blocked.  All of these are expected to be universally bad for the US and reduce net jobs, but they will increase monopoly power and thus be good for the shareholders of those companies.

He has promised to largely eliminate most of the repatriation taxes on companies, so again great for shareholders - but *censored*s over the public - who will be losing trillions in taxes that are owed.

TheDeamon

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #157 on: December 27, 2016, 06:43:32 PM »
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While the economic surge in activity that seems to have started building since the election? Yeah, I'm sure you'll be more than happy to give those positives to Obama. Rather than crediting the looming end of Obama's/Democratic economic policies as being the trigger.
What surge in economic activity?  The stock market has taken off, but employment has increased every month since the early days of Obama's Administration.  I'm sure a more generous observer would say that has had an impact on the economy, but Trump (or maybe even Romney) will take credit for any further increases and blame any job losses on Obama.

Consumer Confidence is polling at the highest levels seen since 2001. The Real Estate market, which had been slowing considerably in the run up to the November Election is showing signs of having taken a rather significant upturn since about the middle of November, in particular housing in the upper income brackets.

Another way to view this is the rhetoric and psychology side of markets in particular where those markets meet politics. With Trump, its okay to be rich, or to become rich, and it certainly is OK to make money.

Under Obama, if you're rich, or you become rich, your success came on the backs of others("You didn't build that."). You're going to be accused of exploitation and a long list of other things as well more likely than not. You'll be threatened with new regulations and laws if your "too successful" and possibly new taxes as well. After all, if you're doing so well, you should be able to afford to pay more and "spread the wealth around."

It's been an argument I know I made elsewhere back in 2012 in regards to Romney, I don't recall if I had access to my Ornery account at that time. Even in 2012, business was sitting on giant boatloads worth of (cash, "liquid") capital and doing (essentially) nothing with it besides keep it on their balance sheets. Record amounts of it even. That is a rather unusual situation to find many/most corporations in, they don't make money by leaving their money parked in bank accounts. Which means "corporate America" was highly uncertain about something(s) in regards to the American Economy. It was suspected that in the event of a Romney win, that money would be unleashed, but if Obama won, the status quo would hold.

Well, Obama won, and the status quo held. 4 years later, and "Corporate America" is now sitting on top of an even larger horde of cash. Much of the growth that has happened in many companies over the past 8 years hasn't really been the outcome of new initiatives on their part, but rather by their instead using those large war chests to buy out other smaller "start up" companies with either promising, or already demonstrated business opportunities. 

Obama presided over an 8 year long "merger and consolidation" business cycle. Which is very, VERY, abnormally long so far as business cycles go. Something was preventing the economy from moving back into an actual growth phase. Then suddenly, lo and behold, a Republican is voted into the highest office, and things seem to suddenly start heating up even before they're actually in office...
 
Amazon is already reporting one of its strongest holiday sales years to date. Many other retailers are looking to have done very well as well(Which would track with high consumer confidence). So economic indicators are heading up, we'll see what really happens once the rubber hits the road in January, but it seems people are liking their prospects.

But getting back to:
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The stock market has taken off, but employment has increased every month since the early days of Obama's Administration.

As the Media, and the Democrats would gleefully say in 2004, and again in 2008: What increase? What recovery? You mean the growing GDP figure that failed to even keep pace with population growth, never mind inflation?

The Employment numbers that also likewise failed to track with population growth where we had more people entering the workforce in almost any given month than we had new jobs created for? I guess it's a good thing a lot of other people decided to withdraw from the job force for the long-term, helping move the unemployment numbers lower?

Also what about that whole underemployment number? They couldn't stop talking about it under Bush. Under Obama, the only people who seemed to be bothered with bringing it up were right-wing pundits. But rest assured, now that Trump is about to enter office, those "underemployment" numbers will be getting attention, as will the "labor force participation rate" (as dubious as that number now is, given the retiring baby boomers), and any other economic indicator they can use to say that economic misery isn't improving, or possibly getting worse under Trump.

Although I'll generally hold that we're moving out of an 8 year merger and consolidation phase of economic activity, so we're probably poised to see an economic boom/growth phase that is unprecedented. The concern there is people are going to forget what "primed the pump" for it to happen(8 years of an artificially suppressed/manipulated market), and we're likely to set ourselves up for one hell of a bust.. Which invariably follows a boom.

But it's probably going to take years, not months, to play itself out. Probably long enough for Trump to get re-elected on "it's the economy stupid" before it finally runs out of steam.

In the mean time, it will be fun to watch the Democrats scream though.  8)

TheDeamon

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #158 on: December 27, 2016, 06:47:21 PM »
He has promised to largely eliminate most of the repatriation taxes on companies, so again great for shareholders - but *censored*s over the public - who will be losing trillions in taxes that are owed.

Those taxes are not owed until they re-enter the country. Otherwise that money would be here already, or those companies would have moved their HQ's overseas.

It is money that is not advantageous to those companies to bring back to the US, so they don't bring it back, and instead use it as a slush fund to finance further investment opportunities overseas building more manufacturing and service facilities over seas rather than domestically. It is money the tax payer is unlikely to ever see, until or unless somebody/something makes it worth their while "to bring that money home."

The public is robbing itself by making bringing that money home not worth doing so.

DonaldD

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #159 on: December 27, 2016, 10:33:16 PM »
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The Employment numbers that also likewise failed to track with population growth where we had more people entering the workforce in almost any given month than we had new jobs created for? I guess it's a good thing a lot of other people decided to withdraw from the job force for the long-term, helping move the unemployment numbers lower?
I wouldn't be so confident of that characterization - between 2008 and 2013, the population of the USA increased by about 12 million people - and all of that increase was attributed to those 50 years old and above, almost equally split between those between 50 and 64 years old, and those 65 and above.  In fact, there was a decrease of about 1 million people in the age groups below 50.

Since labour force participation rate is calculated based on the population that is 16 years old and above - including those 65 and older - that pretty much explains the drop in the participation rate right there.

I'm not arguing that the recovery has been gang busters, nor that it hasn't left many people behind, nor that salaries have not also lagged for the middle class and below. But ignoring the demographic changes over the same period is a bit disingenuous.

Pete at Home

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #160 on: December 27, 2016, 10:41:58 PM »
I know a lot of folks who can't get a job, and am one of them. And of those that have, I have never known Americans to work so many hours for so little money.  65 hour weeks.

Still, it does confuse me a bit why some undocumented Mexican immigrants I know oappear to have voted illegally for Trump.  Go figure. Whew.

Kasandra

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #161 on: December 28, 2016, 06:13:49 AM »
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Consumer Confidence is polling at the highest levels seen since 2001. The Real Estate market, which had been slowing considerably in the run up to the November Election is showing signs of having taken a rather significant upturn since about the middle of November, in particular housing in the upper income brackets.
The rise in consumer confidence is attributed to expectations, not results.  That isn't an indicator of any actual economic activity.  If it falls after Trump fails to deliver, it will be hard to retrofit that onto Obama's 8 consecutive years of actual economic and jobs growth.  How is improvement in the Real Estate market for "upper income brackets" a boon to the general economy?  Again, if you want to attribute that to Trump it is speculative. Also note that November is the beginning of the normal seasonal housing market spurt.  Overall, 2016 was a very good year for real estate - hardly attributable to Trump - and the trend is predicted to continue for at least another year.

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Under Obama, if you're rich, or you become rich, your success came on the backs of others("You didn't build that."). You're going to be accused of exploitation and a long list of other things as well more likely than not. You'll be threatened with new regulations and laws if your "too successful" and possibly new taxes as well. After all, if you're doing so well, you should be able to afford to pay more and "spread the wealth around."
That's a political argument that has nothing to do with actual economic activity.  If you're right that the rich have realized that they'll be even richer going forward, that means that those less rich will be even less rich in the future because business (aka the rich) will have even more power to control the distribution of wealth and benefits to themselves.  Look for even more underemployment and reduction in benefits and lower incomes for salaried and hourly workers.  How is that a sign of good economic strength?

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Amazon is already reporting one of its strongest holiday sales years to date. Many other retailers are looking to have done very well as well(Which would track with high consumer confidence). So economic indicators are heading up, we'll see what really happens once the rubber hits the road in January, but it seems people are liking their prospects.
They are spending money that have or expect to be able to pay off based on present economic conditions.  Do you really think people would spend an extra $1000 on Christmas gifts because they think they'll have a sudden windfall from Trump's election when the credit card bill comes in January?

I give the speculative Trump surge in "confidence" about 6 months.  Then I will pull most of my money out of equities and perhaps buy annuities, something I never would have considered in the past.  Even a .25% CD will look good at that point.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #162 on: December 28, 2016, 08:21:01 AM »
Kasandra: "Then I will pull most of my money out of equities and perhaps buy annuities, something I never would have considered in the past.  Even a .25% CD will look good at that point."

Before I say anything about finance I always preface it by admitting that I have no idea what's going to happen, but...

The timing of the Fed's rate hike right after the election seemed like it was more than just coincidence. A suspicious person might think that they were holding off on raising rates for political purposes. That same type of person might wonder if now that the party they favor is out of power they will be much more aggressive in hiking rates and if that acts to slow Trump's roll and put the old kaibosh on Trump's economic boom then so much the better. Now I understand that as the economy picks up the Fed is supposed to raise rates to keep inflation in check, and it also makes sense with that premise that they wouldn't raise them while the economy was still weak under Obama, but still the timing...

I could have seen the Fed keeping rates low indefinitely just as has been done in Japan. People say they have to raise rates some time, but as Japan and many places in Europe prove, not really, they don't. Of course we'll never know but it's interesting to wonder if we would have gotten the same rate hike just now if Hillary had won instead of Trump. I don't remember her promising much in the way of economic growth so maybe not, plus the Fed might have just kept covering for Democrats like they've been doing with Obama all this time, constantly hinting at a rate hike for years now that never came until after his party was voted out.

One other thing I hear is that if the Fed does raise rates that will explode the national debt so there is no way for them to really do it without devastating results to our national finances. Of course, if they want to really sock it to Trump that would be one way to do it. He campaigned on even more money assuming low interest rates. Fed rate hikes would put a real monkey wrench into the works.

Where's Kuato when you need it?

Kasandra

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #163 on: December 28, 2016, 08:24:52 AM »
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Before I say anything about finance I always preface it by admitting that I have no idea what's going to happen, but...
That's an odd comment for you to make, since you have consistently expressed your support for Trump based on the things he said he would do that you wanted.

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The timing of the Fed's rate hike right after the election seemed like it was more than just coincidence. A suspicious person might think that they were holding off on raising rates for political purposes.
That same suspicious person might think that if a Democrat said there would be an eclipse at a certain date and time that the event was somehow a liberal conspiracy.

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One other thing I hear is that if the Fed does raise rates that will explode the national debt so there is no way for them to really do it without devastating results to our national finances. Of course, if they want to really sock it to Trump that would be one way to do it. He campaigned on even more money assuming low interest rates. Fed rate hikes would put a real monkey wrench into the works.
This is exactly the kind of pre-emptive retroactive attack that I expect from people who want to hedge their bets that Trump won't actually be able to deliver on his wild and reckless promises.  The fed rate has been held low for far longer than in the past in order to nurse the recovery along.  Now that Obama has achieved the recovery to what would be considered a "healthy" state, it's time to start to return the rates to something like historical norms.

Nice try.  He's your man, own it.

Kasandra

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #164 on: December 28, 2016, 08:28:22 AM »
TheDeamon, there's someone else who agrees with you about Trump's influence on the economy:

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The U.S. Consumer Confidence Index for December surged nearly four points to 113.7, THE HIGHEST LEVEL IN MORE THAN 15 YEARS! Thanks Donald!

Fenring

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #165 on: December 28, 2016, 09:55:08 AM »
That same type of person might wonder if now that the party they favor is out of power they will be much more aggressive in hiking rates and if that acts to slow Trump's roll and put the old kaibosh on Trump's economic boom then so much the better.

As far as I've ever been able to glean the Fed doesn't favor any party; it favors individuals who will be supportive of their policy, which can be politicians from either side. Their allegiance is to the banks, and whomever supports the banks is in their camp.

TheDeamon

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #166 on: December 28, 2016, 11:14:34 AM »
TheDeamon, there's someone else who agrees with you about Trump's influence on the economy:

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The U.S. Consumer Confidence Index for December surged nearly four points to 113.7, THE HIGHEST LEVEL IN MORE THAN 15 YEARS! Thanks Donald!

I like how you selectively go back to some of my statements. Don't have time right now to go into the earlier posts(work force participation rate in particular comes to mind).

The CCI is perhaps one of the more meaningless stats in many respects, but at the same time it's a useful index to look at. The reason why it is both "meaningless" and "useful" at the same time is because it reflects the psychology of the consumer market, which makes it a rather Apolitical gauge of political issues that involve the economy.

If the average consumer feels that the government is doing things "harmful to the market" then CCI drops. If the average consumer feels that the government is (about to start) doing things that are "beneficial to the market" then the CCI will go up. That isn't to say a large list of other things don't also impact the CCI, because they do, but government policy positions are one hell of a major input on that front, and the Trump admin isn't expected to be status quo with what Obama was up to. People evidently expect "a sea change" for the better to happen shortly. But as the CCI is a gauge of expectations, rather than the fundamentals of the market, we'll see what plays out. High CCI alone is not enough to mean that markets are about to do well, some times they're strong indicators of a market poised to crash. (As happened in 2001, the previous high water mark; and again in 2007/2008 IIRC, although that one didn't quite reach 2001 levels)

Trump was elected on a pro-business platform, among other things, people as such think the government is about to start doing things which will be beneficial to economy in ways that Obama's policies weren't. Ergo, they think "things are heading in the right direction" once more(Yet another poll question pollsters love to ask, as the political version of the CCI), and are more comfortable spending money as a consequence.

The other thing in the mix is how to economically categorize the past 8 years in the US, besides as a lost decade. Historically speaking, we should have seen the economy go through two boom and bust phases with an average economic growth rate ahead of the curve that we've enjoyed. We never really boomed, although the economy has grown albeit barely, but we never went into a "bust" (recession) either.

Which is in large part why I'm starting to call this an 8 year merger and consolidation cycle. Which if that call is right, we're in the prelude to the boom. Which then brings us to:

That same type of person might wonder if now that the party they favor is out of power they will be much more aggressive in hiking rates and if that acts to slow Trump's roll and put the old kaibosh on Trump's economic boom then so much the better.

As far as I've ever been able to glean the Fed doesn't favor any party; it favors individuals who will be supportive of their policy, which can be politicians from either side. Their allegiance is to the banks, and whomever supports the banks is in their camp.

If the Fed is thinking in the same vein as I am, they're going to have to start being very proactive in managing interest rates. The US (corporate) Economy is dealing with the pent up energy of what should have been 2 previous boom/bust cycles, as a third one should be starting. Corporations in particular are flush with cash. If we enter a boom cycle, interest rates aren't really going to be a concern for companies sitting on multi-billion dollar war chests, they'll simply self-finance.

But hiking interest rates will help curb many of the other excesses that tend to come with a boom cycle. Particularly one as large as we might be sitting on right now. Economically speaking, we might be sitting on top of a proverbial Krakatoa right now. While the resulting boom(explosion) would potentially be damn impressive, I'd just as soon not have to deal with the bust(fallout) that would follow such an event.

DJQuag

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #167 on: December 28, 2016, 12:37:00 PM »
See, I consider Hillary's loss to be a feature, not a bug in regards to the EC.

That it was Trump she ran opposite to, or that she ran at all, was the bug. In that respect, the problem isn't with the Electoral College. The problem is with the presidential candidate selection process, neither one should have made the general election.
That's not really a response but a little speechifying.  You're joining the embryonic Republican cohort that will blame Democrats for every foul, stupid and dangerous thing that Trump and the Republican Congress do because they failed -- FAILED -- to defeat the bozo the GOP put forward.  Since you make that point yourself, I will ignore any complaint you make about them.  I'm amazed that Trump won, even with all the obstacles and hindrances that Clinton had to dodge and/or carry, but he did and he's yours, so own it.

This is ridiculous.

At some point the Democrats have to own up to what they did. They put up a *censored* tier candidate. No matter how qualified she was, when it came to getting people to vote for her she was a bad choice.

In a country full of voters suffering from the side effects of globalism and the war between the rich and middle/poor classes (which the rich have unequivocally won in the past thirty odd years) you simply can't have a candidate who has been part of federal government for decades run against a complete outsider. It's a bad risk.

But no. The DNC crowned her, and anyone who didn't like her was sure to be branded a sexist, and boy did that *really* help things.

Trump is a disaster and I'm kind of looking on with the air of a rubbernecker viewing a car wreck at this point, but don't you dare try to intimate that the DNC has no blame in this. The majority of the electorate are grade A dumbasses. The purpose of the parties is to manipulate them. And the DNC failed. So *censored*ed hard.

If we can avoid a nuclear war, Trump will be impeached in a year or two. The person we need to worry about is Pence.

DJQuag

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #168 on: December 28, 2016, 01:09:32 PM »
Also what exactly was behind you changing names? Cassandra Truth oh haha someone predicting doom and gloom when everyone didn't see it.

Except we all see it, AI. Even the conservative posters here outside of Cherry fully acknowledge and predict that Trump will be a frigging disaster.

Are you really saying anything you couldn't have said under AI Wessex?

Pete at Home

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #169 on: December 28, 2016, 02:24:38 PM »
I like the Kasandra iteration.  It helped put ongoing grudges behind us.

DJQuag

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #170 on: December 28, 2016, 02:50:40 PM »
I like the Kasandra iteration.  It helped put ongoing grudges behind us.

All due respect, Pete, but you mispelled the word "me" as "us."

Kasandra

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #171 on: December 29, 2016, 08:38:36 AM »
TD:
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The U.S. consumer confidence index (CCI) is an indicator designed to measure consumer confidence, which is defined as the degree of optimism on the state of the economy that consumers are expressing through their activities of savings and spending.
In other words, it reflects their current state of mind based on recent events as well as optimism for the future, which is a projection of the current state.  Yes, psychology matters since the so-called metric is confidence, a mood or attitude.

DJ:
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Trump is a disaster and I'm kind of looking on with the air of a rubbernecker viewing a car wreck at this point, but don't you dare try to intimate that the DNC has no blame in this. The majority of the electorate are grade A dumbasses. The purpose of the parties is to manipulate them. And the DNC failed. So *censored*ed hard.

If we can avoid a nuclear war, Trump will be impeached in a year or two. The person we need to worry about is Pence.
You're right that Clinton became a symbol of the system and Trump represented a rejection of it.  The people she lost were mostly those who have become disenchanted with what the system does for them.  But don't forget that she outpolled him, so it's not like he overwhelmed her with voters.

Pete at Home

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #172 on: December 29, 2016, 08:52:54 AM »
I like the Kasandra iteration.  It helped put ongoing grudges behind us.

All due respect, Pete, but you mispelled the word "me" as "us."

Me + Kassandra = "us".

Time heals NO wounds for me, but a small gesture goes a very long way with me.

TheDrake

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #173 on: December 29, 2016, 03:32:39 PM »
Update: we now know at least one part of the "action" that Obama promised.



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The US State Department declared the 35 Russian diplomats from the Washington DC embassy and the consulate in San Francisco "persona non grata", giving them and their families 72 hours to leave the US.

The Russian government is expected to respond in turn by expelling US diplomats.

It will also close two Russian compounds used for intelligence-gathering, in Maryland and New York, as part of a raft of retaliatory measures.

Sanctions have also been announced against nine entities and individuals including the GRU and FSB Russian intelligence agencies.

source

DJQuag

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #174 on: December 29, 2016, 03:49:29 PM »
So I dunno I guess in realpolitik this is to be expected but the thing that strikes me here that I didn't realize was that Russia had identified compounds from which they conducted espionage and we were all like "Oh okay," right up until they had the nerve to show the US that the DNC were being *censored*heads.

DJQuag

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #175 on: December 29, 2016, 03:52:49 PM »
I kind of wish the response to this had been more along the lines of during the next Russian election President For Life Putin had had to own up to his own embarrassing emails, but since Obama has about 3 weeks left in power and Russian cock enthusiast Trump is about to take power that probably wasn't an option.

TheDrake

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #176 on: December 29, 2016, 04:02:57 PM »
Yeah, that struck me as odd also. It is in the official statement by the President. It might have been standard spy games - better to keep an eye on locations we've identified than to roust them to set up shop elsewhere. Or their entire existence was fabricated.


Seriati

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #177 on: December 29, 2016, 06:31:28 PM »
What should have made Trump unqualified to hold office in the opinion of the electors enough that they should have overruled the results of the general election the way Martin Sheen and many other high profile celebrities took out millions of dollars in ads encouraging them to do?

Just to add on to this, what exactly makes career politicians who've never held any real jobs or have any real understanding of the people they intend to represent (rule) qualified?  The truth is there is every reason to believe that Trump is fully qualified to be President.  The idea that talented people who are not career politicians are not qualified is elitist and offensive.

Gaoics79

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #178 on: December 29, 2016, 07:06:11 PM »
Quote
I kind of wish the response to this had been more along the lines of during the next Russian election President For Life Putin had had to own up to his own embarrassing emails, but since Obama has about 3 weeks left in power and Russian cock enthusiast Trump is about to take power that probably wasn't an option.

That would have been something, anyway, not this useless hissy fit.

We don't need to "send a message" or retaliate or whatnot. The only action that needs to be taken in response is simply better security, end of story. I don't see this as anything but a veiled attack on Trump by Obama. It's a further attempt to de-legitimize Trump's win by implying that Russia stole the election for him. It's almost as if - Gasp! - Obama thinks the election was *rigged*. But he couldn't think that - doing so would be irresponsible and vile, an attack on the foundation of our democracy, or so I recall hearing shortly before the election from some people. Hmmm...

Pete at Home

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #179 on: December 29, 2016, 09:14:14 PM »
Hope Obama doesn't go all the way and burn the White House to the ground before leaving.

DonaldD

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #180 on: December 29, 2016, 10:24:19 PM »
Quote
It's almost as if - Gasp! - Obama thinks the election was *rigged*. But he couldn't think that - doing so would be irresponsible and vile, an attack on the foundation of our democracy, or so I recall hearing shortly before the election from some people. Hmmm...
Come on Jason - you are better than this.

You know that what people were on about before the election was not just the claim that the election was "rigged", but that there was simply no evidence to support the claim. Actually providing such evidence, and using it as a basis to fix a problem would have been constructive and would have strengthened the democratic machinery.  This, alas, is not what happened.

Also, notwithstanding you putting words into Obama's mouth, I challenge you to present a statement that Obama made suggesting anything of the sort. Russia "interfering" with the election is not synonymous with "rigging" the election; and like it or not, the President and the President elect, as well as Congress, have all been presented with evidence of this malfeasance.

It's not some theoretical attack with no basis in reality as were Trump's claims about a rigged primary and then a rigged election, but one that is well-documented, with known actors.  Not responding would be just inviting more such actions in the future.  BTW, imposing sanctions does not preclude other actions, like, as you say, improving security.  But people will always get hacked - people are dumb. Teaching them about strong passwords, or requiring two-step sign ins will not stop the real problem.  The real problem is the extent that Russia is willing, at the moment, to invest in regime change in western democracies.

Sanctions that would penalize Russia financially would have been more effective, but Trump has already effectively emasculated himself by siding with Russia over the FBI and the CIA.

It should be noted, too, that Russia has now played this same game in France as well as in Italy and Greece. There are upcoming elections next year across Europe, and in all likelihood, Russia will be actively supporting groups sympathetic the Russian expansionism. Why this doesn't upset more people in the USA would be mind-boggling, but unfortunately, partisanship seems to have won out over sanity and informed self-interest.



Pete at Home

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #181 on: December 30, 2016, 12:58:05 AM »
Quote
Sanctions that would penalize Russia financially would have been more effective, but Trump has already effectively emasculated himself by siding with Russia over the FBI and the CIA.

You realize that statement left no moral difference at all between you and Trump, either in style or in substance.

DonaldD

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #182 on: December 30, 2016, 06:15:59 AM »
Maybe the issue here is that, though attacks by Russia on western democracies have become commonplace in the past few years, this is the first time USA stakeholders have taken notice.

It's as if, if things don't occur in the USA,  they disn't actually happen...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-cyber-warfare-election-hack-1.3896613
Quote
European spymasters have repeatedly expressed alarm over the years about a sharp rise in Russian espionage under Vladimir Putin. But what is far more worrisome are the attempts to destabilize Western governments through the same cocktail of political interference.

These attacks involve the hacking of parties and state agencies, fake news stories, financial support of far-right parties and relentless propaganda by Russian state networks and social media to stir up populist anger against establishment parties.

Kasandra

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #183 on: December 30, 2016, 06:55:08 AM »
Quote
Sanctions that would penalize Russia financially would have been more effective, but Trump has already effectively emasculated himself by siding with Russia over the FBI and the CIA.

You realize that statement left no moral difference at all between you and Trump, either in style or in substance.
Donalds comment bears no resemblance to anything Trump might say or do. It's a fair observation. In response to the actions Obama took Trump said we should just ignore what Putin did and get on with our lives.

Gaoics79

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #184 on: December 30, 2016, 08:26:34 AM »
Quote
It's not some theoretical attack with no basis in reality as were Trump's claims about a rigged primary and then a rigged election, but one that is well-documented, with known actors.

That Trump's claims were rubbish is not in dispute. I do recall the objection at the time was that even the allegation was to undermine our democracy, and that it was irresponsible for him to do so.

In this case, I will concede there is more evidence to support the Russian activity than what Trump had (something, by definition, is more than nothing). Yet, I have yet to see anything resembling a smoking gun. What I have seen is evidence that actors in Russia likely hacked the DNC and then an inference that Russia was "behind" the provision to Wikileaks (i.e. the Russian government) and then a further inference that Putin personally ordered the attack.

However, I note that Wikileaks denies this expressly and indicated that the source was a leak, not a hack. This latter point is critical. Since Assange himself says that it was a leak (and he would know) I have to weigh his word against that of the CIA and the Obama admin. Somebody is lying.

Guess who I ascribe more credibility to?

If Assange says it was a leak, I believe him and I don't believe them. If you want to know why I ascribe so little credibility to the U.S. government in these matters, their lies in the leadup to the Snowden affair would be Exhibit A. Lying to us for years in matters of intelligence and national security has consequences. And in a circumstance where I see their position as self serving (a Democratic administration seeking to blame the loss of an election on a foreign power perceived as friendly to the incoming president-elect) I have even greater basis to dismiss their claims and to believe Assange. I also see this blaming of Russia, by the way, as fitting into a larger propaganda war against Russia and Putin in particular, that has been going on for years. Note I do not say that all propaganda is a lie - but in this case, the overall trend of seeking to demonize Russia and Putin lends further credence to my supposition that Putin is a very convenient skapegoat in this case.

But lets assume for a moment that I believe the Obama admin / CIA and assume that Assange is the one lying. Let me assume that the Russians did precisely what they are accused of doing. That it may have been self-serving on the Russians' part does not change the fact that they exposed the DNC's misfeasance and lies to the public. That is a public service.

From day 1 the DNC claimed to be fair and evenhanded, even though everyone suspected they were in the tank for Hillary. And (in your scenario) the Russians made sure they got caught with their pants down.

You may be outraged that the Russians exposed the DNC's lies. I am outraged that they lied and then tried to blame Russia for the consequences of their duplicity.

You know how you stop this from happening again, apart from beefing up network security? STOP LYING TO THE PUBLIC!
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 08:33:35 AM by jasonr »

Pete at Home

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #185 on: December 30, 2016, 10:01:49 AM »
Quote
Sanctions that would penalize Russia financially would have been more effective, but Trump has already effectively emasculated himself by siding with Russia over the FBI and the CIA.

You realize that statement left no moral difference at all between you and Trump, either in style or in substance.
Donalds comment bears no resemblance to anything Trump might say or do. It's a fair observation. In response to the actions Obama took Trump said we should just ignore what Putin did and get on with our lives.

You don't think that metaphors about cutting out parts of Trump's genitals, violent phalocentric imagery, has any resemblance to something Trump might say? Really? 

DonaldD

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #186 on: December 30, 2016, 10:11:43 AM »
Quote
You may be outraged that the Russians exposed the DNC's lies. I am outraged that they lied and then tried to blame Russia for the consequences of their duplicity
You keep going on about the hack as if the hack itself was particularly important.  It is not, except in so much as it is a part of Russia's current arsenal being used to destabilize western opponents.  The primary issue, as I have been repeating, is Russian involvement in sabotaging democratic elections.  Using Wikileaks was only one tool, though particularly effective in the USA.  Russia's fingerprints are all over social media, fake news and financing of anti-western establishment entities. 

Without acknowledging this primary issue, and if people allow partisanship to blind themselves to the actual attacks on their democracies, that will lead to Russia and other bad actors to continue to wield unconscionable amounts of influence on western democracies.

Do we really want Vladimir Putin having the power to sway elections and effectively choose successors in western countries?

Fenring

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #187 on: December 30, 2016, 10:58:13 AM »
The primary issue, as I have been repeating, is Russian involvement in sabotaging democratic elections.

Yes, you have been repeating this. You have yet to demonstrate how anything was "sabotaged", even if all allegations about what Russia did are true. If releasing true information is 'sabotage' then we have a problem far worse than Russia on our hands.

Quote
Using Wikileaks was only one tool, though particularly effective in the USA.  Russia's fingerprints are all over social media, fake news and financing of anti-western establishment entities.

So you are now imputing directly that Wikileaks is in league with Russia? Where is your evidence for this, other than the circular theory that Russia is behind everything, and therefore anything any party does is in concert with Russia's motives? 

Quote
Without acknowledging this primary issue, and if people allow partisanship to blind themselves to the actual attacks on their democracies

Partisanship is the actual attack on democracy. Or rather, the forces that reinforce and bolster partisanship are the attackers.

TheDeamon

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #188 on: December 30, 2016, 11:25:29 AM »
Do we really want Vladimir Putin having the power to sway elections and effectively choose successors in western countries?

The LA Times had a piece earlier this month talking about the dozens upon dozens of times that the US intervened and interfered with electoral processes in other nations during the Cold War. Experience has shown that such operations only generally lead to a maximum shift of up to 3 points for the person/party they were supporting.

So just looking at the Popular vote stats for 2012(Obama won with a 3.9% margin) and 2008(Obama won with a 7.2% margin), it is unlikely that Russian involvement in those cycles would have changed the outcomes, at least at first glance. It's possible a 3% vote shift in some states might have allowed Romney to squeak in an electoral win as only a 1% shift did for Trump this time, but I'm not inclined to go check at this time.

2000 and 2004 were within the 3% margin. 1980, '84, '88, '92, '96 were all well outside of a 3% margin however.

rightleft22

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #189 on: December 30, 2016, 11:26:56 AM »
Dance and spin but even Trump knows what was happening and is therefor in my opinion culpable in the spying and hacking. 
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in history.
 
Quote
“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” Mr. Trump said during a news conference here in an apparent reference to Mrs. Clinton’s deleted emails. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily.”

Personally, I wouldn’t spend much time defending Russia or Trump on this one as it will just make it harder to deal with the cognitive dissidence when the pendulum swings in the other direction and you need to condemn Russia, spying and hacking. 

Trump is Putin’s bitch. 

TheDeamon

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #190 on: December 30, 2016, 11:35:26 AM »
Quote
“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” Mr. Trump said during a news conference here in an apparent reference to Mrs. Clinton’s deleted emails. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily.”

Personally, I wouldn’t spend much time defending Russia or Trump on this one as it will just make it harder to deal with the cognitive dissidence when the pendulum swings in the other direction and you need to condemn Russia, spying and hacking.

 ::) ??? :o

Someone fails at rhetoric, and humor.

Kasandra

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #191 on: December 30, 2016, 11:54:55 AM »
Quote
Sanctions that would penalize Russia financially would have been more effective, but Trump has already effectively emasculated himself by siding with Russia over the FBI and the CIA.

You realize that statement left no moral difference at all between you and Trump, either in style or in substance.
Donalds comment bears no resemblance to anything Trump might say or do. It's a fair observation. In response to the actions Obama took Trump said we should just ignore what Putin did and get on with our lives.

You don't think that metaphors about cutting out parts of Trump's genitals, violent phalocentric imagery, has any resemblance to something Trump might say? Really?
That is the 3rd listed definition for "emasculate".  The first is to weaken someone's credibility or authority, which is what Donald meant.

Kasandra

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #192 on: December 30, 2016, 11:58:23 AM »
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Yes, you have been repeating this. You have yet to demonstrate how anything was "sabotaged", even if all allegations about what Russia did are true. If releasing true information is 'sabotage' then we have a problem far worse than Russia on our hands.
The issue is neither the hack nor the release of plausibly true information damaging to Democrats, but the selectivity of the hack-release in order to damage just one Party.  People who support the purported Russian actions are also somehow comfortable that no such hack-release was made about Republicans.  That's why I continually point out the partisan inference for support of the attack against only one Party.

Kasandra

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #193 on: December 30, 2016, 12:01:22 PM »
Do we really want Vladimir Putin having the power to sway elections and effectively choose successors in western countries?

The LA Times had a piece earlier this month talking about the dozens upon dozens of times that the US intervened and interfered with electoral processes in other nations during the Cold War. Experience has shown that such operations only generally lead to a maximum shift of up to 3 points for the person/party they were supporting.
According to the WP, US interference in foreign politics has had a far more determinative role on other governments.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #194 on: December 30, 2016, 12:31:05 PM »
The only way we could have had a fair election was if no one ever found out that the Democrats rigged their own primary election.

Gaoics79

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #195 on: December 30, 2016, 12:46:21 PM »
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The issue is neither the hack nor the release of plausibly true information damaging to Democrats, but the selectivity of the hack-release in order to damage just one Party.  People who support the purported Russian actions are also somehow comfortable that no such hack-release was made about Republicans.  That's why I continually point out the partisan inference for support of the attack against only one Party.

Yes yes yes. Except you ignore the significant possibility that there was simply nothing worth revealing on the Republican side. Or maybe the RNC has better security than the DNC.

OR - Maybe it was a leak after all, just as Assange has stated.

But either way, the quagmire you go into defending the DNC's ability to deceive its electorate is far deeper than the quagmire I go into by defending (possible) Russian involvement in its exposure.

If the Russians hacked the DNC then the DNC will simply beef up its security, tighten its e-mail policies and the problem should be solved.

Whereas if the DNC continues to deceive its electorate that is not a problem that can be remedied with improved network security.

I know which issue concerns me more.

Maybe the Russians did the DNC a favour, in all honesty. Next time you'll be ready for it. 

Pete at Home

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #196 on: December 30, 2016, 12:48:36 PM »
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Yes, you have been repeating this. You have yet to demonstrate how anything was "sabotaged", even if all allegations about what Russia did are true. If releasing true information is 'sabotage' then we have a problem far worse than Russia on our hands.
The issue is neither the hack nor the release of plausibly true information damaging to Democrats, but the selectivity of the hack-release in order to damage just one Party.  People who support the purported Russian actions are also somehow comfortable that no such hack-release was made about Republicans.  That's why I continually point out the partisan inference for support of the attack against only one Party.

I'm not "comfortable" about it. But it's not as big an issue as what was revealed.  I also don't think the revelation swung the election.  Hillary lost because non-whites did not show up to the polls. That had zero to do with emails or hacking.


Pete at Home

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #197 on: December 30, 2016, 12:50:29 PM »
Quote
Sanctions that would penalize Russia financially would have been more effective, but Trump has already effectively emasculated himself by siding with Russia over the FBI and the CIA.

You realize that statement left no moral difference at all between you and Trump, either in style or in substance.
Donalds comment bears no resemblance to anything Trump might say or do. It's a fair observation. In response to the actions Obama took Trump said we should just ignore what Putin did and get on with our lives.

You don't think that metaphors about cutting out parts of Trump's genitals, violent phalocentric imagery, has any resemblance to something Trump might say? Really?
That is the 3rd listed definition for "emasculate".  The first is to weaken someone's credibility or authority, which is what Donald meant.

It's a legitimate use of the word, yes, and also the selection that the other Donald would have made.

TheDeamon

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #198 on: December 30, 2016, 12:51:08 PM »
Do we really want Vladimir Putin having the power to sway elections and effectively choose successors in western countries?

The LA Times had a piece earlier this month talking about the dozens upon dozens of times that the US intervened and interfered with electoral processes in other nations during the Cold War. Experience has shown that such operations only generally lead to a maximum shift of up to 3 points for the person/party they were supporting.
According to the WP, US interference in foreign politics has had a far more determinative role on other governments.

Looks like they pulled from the same source, almost 2 months earlier even.

Albeit their focus was different. Washington Post also got into the "other ways" the US would interfere when the ballot box failed. Which usually had a higher "success rate" as decided by US policy at the time.

The point still stands that when trying to swing an election, usually the most they managed to do was swing the poll result by about 3 points. So resolving it at the ballot box was an option in close elections, but it had to be close in the first place. If the polling wasn't within that +/- 3% range before you get involved, then you went to the "other tool chest" and pursued "other options" instead.

yossarian22c

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Re: Cyber Showdown
« Reply #199 on: December 30, 2016, 01:00:45 PM »
Okay, Russia didn't "rig" the election.  But they did interfere with it and that should be a concern.  We should be concerned about foreign spy agencies hacking powerful people and exposing their secrets when it benefits them or holding onto them to blackmail them with later.  Did there interference change the outcome of the election, I think probably not.  Two years of hearing about Clinton's emails and her server, in addition to Comey's statement the weekend before the election made her much more likely to be impacted by these attacks than almost any other candidate would have been.  After two years of hearing about emails, any story with Clinton and emails in the headlines was bad news for her regardless of what the emails revealed or didn't.

The DNC did not "rig" the primary but they were certainly in the Hillary camp. Did anyone really believe otherwise before the emails were leaked?

Both are of concern, we know what the motivations for the DNC was, it has been in the Clinton camp since the 90's.  What is Russia's motivation.  That is what is concerning.