Author Topic: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law  (Read 3109 times)

Wayward Son

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Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« on: January 25, 2017, 03:33:37 PM »
I picked up this latest tweet from the President Stonekettle Station:

Quote
If Chicago doesn't fix the horrible "carnage" going on, 228 shootings in 2017 with 42 killings (up 24% from 2016), I will send in the Feds!

Of course, Sean Spicer said "What he wants to do is provide the resources of the federal government . . . There is no one thing . . . [aid,] if requested, up through the governor, through the proper channels.”

How stupid does he think Trump is?  ::)

He thinks Trump meant, "If Chicago doesn't fix the horrible "carnage" going on, I will send them the aid they requested!"  ;D  Gimme a break.

We know what Trump meant.  The National Guard.  Tanks in the streets.  And for how long?  Until criminals stop shooting each other?  How long do you think that will take?

Or until he figures out that the only way to stop the shooting is to disarm the criminals.  And how will he know which gun owner is a criminal? ;)

Congratulations, Conservatives and Republicans.  You hated Obama because he wanted to take away our guns.  You hated Hillary because she was going to take away our guns. 

Now you got Trump, who is threatening to take away our guns.  ::)

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2017, 04:07:52 PM »
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Or until he figures out that the only way to stop the shooting is to disarm the criminals.  And how will he know which gun owner is a criminal? ;)

Textbook dicto simpliciter fallact

If it really were than simple, we would all have "figured it out."

Much easier to start with finding out which criminals have access to guns. Enforce existing constitutional gun laws.

TheDrake

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2017, 04:23:36 PM »
That's why this text seems so dangerous now compared to when it was added because of the debacle in the aftermath of Katrina.

"The President may employ the armed forces..." to "restore public order" when "domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order"

Check out the full text, I'm not lawyerly enough to read it properly, but I could see Trump using it to justify sending the national guard to Chicago without Illinois request, though I find that improbable at the moment.

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2017, 04:38:02 PM »
He may just flood Chicago with BATF, FBI, and the U.S. Marshals. Rather than deploying the National Guard.

Maybe even send in that SWAT Team the Department of Education was alleged to have assembled under Obama, "to help protect the schools."
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 04:40:26 PM by TheDeamon »

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2017, 05:00:32 PM »
What I find more alarming is continuing the Obama tradition of felony charges against reporters that cover unapproved protests.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2017, 05:08:26 PM »
This strikes at Rahm Emmanuel, a lynchpin in the DNC grassroots policy.  Chicago is also the place where law abiding African Americans recently won the right to bear arms 5:4 against DNC policy. It's also the location of the most notorious torture terrorism hate crime against a white male. So Red America will sympathize with Trump, possibly even giving up the federalism issue here...

Or perhaps making the DNC pick it back up. I was wondering if Trump was going to charge those four Chicago tools under the federal hate crime statute.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 05:10:57 PM by Pete at Home »

Wayward Son

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2017, 05:29:20 PM »
I thought those four slime were already being charged with a hate crime before Trump came into office.  ???

Not that he won't take credit if they were...

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2017, 08:14:31 PM »
I thought those four slime were already being charged with a hate crime before Trump came into office.  ???

Not that he won't take credit if they were...

State charges. Fed crime charges on top of state are rarely prosecuted through completion but SCOTUS has found they do not violate double jeopardy.   And under Obama, no black defendant was prosecuted for a hate crime, and a whole generation of losers has sprung up with left think bs that it can't be done. This would make a good test case.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2017, 09:02:40 PM »
Evidence to support my theory that Trump and Rahm Emmanuel are the next big fight

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38738423

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2017, 10:06:47 PM »
Well, Chicago would certainly demonstrate that Law Enforcement isn't keeping them safe even with being a sanctuary city. But Chicago is fairly unique in that argument.

Seriati

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2017, 09:13:17 AM »
So to clarify, you're afraid that Trump will impose martial law, even though he's given no indication he would do so, nor ever said so, but you had no issue with the Obama administration trying desperately to enter into a "consent decree" with the City of Chicago on a rush basis before it went out of power.  Such consent decrees are used to impose "as a settlement" binding obligations - federally imposed - that interfere with local authority and control in a manner that the Federal government could not do by direct law and the local authorities have been unwilling to do as a matter of politics.

Why do you not see that you have a one-way view of the perils of facism?

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2017, 09:42:15 AM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/13/us/chicago-police-justice-department-report.html?_r=0

Interesting stuff, but fascism, Seriati?  An arguable wrong against federalism is not necessarily fascism.  What am I missing?

I think we could find a much stronger support for your thesis of Obamists' one-sided view of fascism if we were to look at the still-imprisoned reporter and heavy handed high tech censorship tools used in the Standing Rock protest.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 09:44:20 AM by Pete at Home »

cherrypoptart

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2017, 11:12:18 AM »
If Trump sends the National Guard into Chicago I will agree that is over the top and a step toward fascism but I"m just shaking my head in disbelief that anyone seriously believes that's what he was talking about or that could ever happen.

My interpretation is that Trump is willing to help local law enforcement with the resources of the FBI in terms of manpower and expertise in helping to solve crimes and get violent criminals off the streets such as by letting the police have cooperative access to the FBI's crime labs with ballistic and DNA analysis and perhaps with new advances in technology such as with facial recognition and social media platforms analysis along with high priority for quick turnarounds on results and having the FBI lend a hand with apprehensions which is especially important with the mobility of people nowadays in being able to cross state lines and even flee internationally.

There are numerous ways the feds can help local law enforcement without running afoul of the Constitution or trampling anyone's rights let alone conjuring the specter of fascism.

Seriati

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2017, 11:25:55 AM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/13/us/chicago-police-justice-department-report.html?_r=0

Interesting stuff, but fascism, Seriati?  An arguable wrong against federalism is not necessarily fascism.  What am I missing?

Beats me, it's literally fascism to undermine local control and democratic processes by imposing authoritarian solutions from on high that exceed the solutions available to either government involved and overrule the democratic decisions of the local government authorities.

The fact that they claim its for the greater good doesn't change that, just makes it worse as it undermines our democracy.

What exactly does a consent decree forcing Chicago to change its practices, add to the ability of the government of Chicago to change it's practices?   Rahm's the one negotiating to bring in the force of the Feds, why can't he as the top elected official get the changes he wants in place through his own authority?   If the people won't support the changes democratically, how is it not fascism to impose them from on high?

TheDrake

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2017, 12:16:19 PM »
Go back to the quote and read what others have posted, Seriati.

If Chicago doesn't fix the horrible "carnage" going on, 228 shootings in 2017 with 42 killings (up 24% from 2016), I will send in the Feds!

This is a threat of unilateral Federal action to fix a local problem - murder. He didn't say, "My office will provide any resources needed." or "The federal government stands ready to assist." Yes, this unilateral action is unlikely to be the army, but it is a threat.

The consent decree that you cite is about curtailing the local government's abuse of its citizens, who are also US citizens and entitled to the protection of the federal government.

This isn't apples to oranges, it is steak to bananas. It is certainly worth thinking about whether the federal government has a right to stop local abuse of power, perceived or real, but it isn't an apt analogy.

rightleft22

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2017, 01:32:43 PM »
Trump says exactly what he means

Seriati

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2017, 01:36:05 PM »
Lol, the Obama administration putting the force of the federal government on this issue is "completely different" than the Trump admin doing so.  In any event, I'll wait to see how he "sends in the Feds" before I panic about the imposition of martial law. 

And if you'll forgive me, it is exactly the correct analogy, it troubles me that you see a distinction.  It tells me that sophistry makes for effective fascist arguments.  The Feds have used consent decrees repeatedly (especially in collusion with environmental groups) to force into effect regulations and changes that exceed their regulatory and even legal authority.  In this case, a State (and Chicago as an arm of a state) has a legal police power that the Federal government does not and by way of agreeing to the consent decree grants the Federal government the power to act outside its authority, while simultaneously breeching the limits on the state's power by reference to federal supremacy.  Frankly, that's a very more troubling abuse of power.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 01:55:53 PM »
Lol, the Obama administration putting the force of the federal government on this issue is "completely different" than the Trump admin doing so.  In any event, I'll wait to see how he "sends in the Feds" before I panic about the imposition of martial law. 

And if you'll forgive me, it is exactly the correct analogy, it troubles me that you see a distinction.  It tells me that sophistry makes for effective fascist arguments.  The Feds have used consent decrees repeatedly (especially in collusion with environmental groups) to force into effect regulations and changes that exceed their regulatory and even legal authority.  In this case, a State (and Chicago as an arm of a state) has a legal police power that the Federal government does not and by way of agreeing to the consent decree grants the Federal government the power to act outside its authority, while simultaneously breeching the limits on the state's power by reference to federal supremacy.  Frankly, that's a very more troubling abuse of power.

I agree that it's a good analogy.  And I do agree that tanks in the streets is a feature of fascism, although not a feature confined to fascism; fascism is not the only form of authoritarianism or totalitarianism.  But the idea of central control over local control being fascism per se confuses me.  I had not thought of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments as particularly fascistic.

D.W.

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2017, 01:56:13 PM »
Seriati, "We the People" like to be tricked when our government oversteps it's bounds.  We get much more riled up when our government shouts and yells, "I'm so gonna go illegal tyrant all over your ass!"

We like to peacefully ignore the erosion of our rights and privileges.  We don't like to be jostled and frightened while it happens.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2017, 02:04:40 PM »
Trump says exactly what he means

In response to this?  https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/as-killings-surge-chicago-police-solve-fewer-homicides/2016/11/05/55e5af84-8c0d-11e6-875e-2c1bfe943b66_story.html?utm_term=.8bcaa5c910b9

I'm not sure it's inappropriate. This seems to be something that both Obama and Trump agree on.  Not much in that territory. 

Seriati, Government exists to secure the people's rights.  14th Amendment shifts a greater burden to the feds to oversee state and local protection of civil rights.  What's the issue here?

Yes, murder is local, but there's precedent to the feds taking over where the states are failing there, going back decades and tied to the 14th amendment.

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2017, 02:22:10 PM »
I have to wonder if they couldn't invoke RICO or something comparable and move in on that grounds. I was given to understand at some point in the past, a lot of the shootings/murders that are going on in Chicago tend to lead back to MS13 and its various tendrils.

Of course, that then ties back to the image of Trump being "Anti-immigrant" which then means he's pursuing a racist agenda, and so on and so forth.

I would certainly argue that MS13 is NOT "a local problem" and certainly would be grounds for Federal involvement, and not just in Chicago.

Of course, MS13 is one of the strongest arguments for having a strong and secure southern border. If we'd locked that border down in the 1990's, we wouldn't be dealing with them now. Considering that organization was started/grew thanks to illegal immigrants entering the US, setting up shop in LA(in the late 80's/early 90's) seeing what was going on in the local drug/crime scene, getting deported, sneaking back in, getting deported again, and coming back yet again and realizing "Hey, we could make a lot of money if we brought drugs across the border with us since much of the stuff is coming from our countries to start with."

But then, its almost too late on that front, they have "domestic" drug operations in the US now as well. It would be interesting to see if Trump takes a Libertarian approach to the War on Drugs. That would be a good first step on starting to defang MS13 for example.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2017, 02:29:02 PM »
Hey, maybe I'm wrong on a war between Trump and Rahm Emmanuel.  Check out this video:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38760671

While RE bashes Trump on the sanctuary city ban, he actually "welcomes" Trump's "offer of help".

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2017, 02:47:17 PM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38762643

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A 12-year-old girl was among six injured at a shooting during a memorial for a victim of gun violence in Chicago.
Police were called on Wednesday night to the city's south side after a gang ambushed the vigil.
The mother of the 20-year-old dead woman, whom mourners had gathered to remember, was among the victims.
Last year the Illinois city recorded 762 homicides, according to police records.
Police spokesman Ron Gaines said the 12-year-old girl suffered a bullet-graze wound to her head, and is currently in hospital in stable condition.
"Another gang saw them on social media and came out and shot up the memorial," Mr Brown told the Chicago Sun-Times.

That's the second act of world news terrorism coming out of Chicago in a month.  Obama, Rahm E., and Trump are right on this one.  Locals have failed and federal assistance should be contemplated.

Seriati

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2017, 04:11:48 PM »
Seriati, Government exists to secure the people's rights.  14th Amendment shifts a greater burden to the feds to oversee state and local protection of civil rights.  What's the issue here?

Well first of all, defining murder as a violation of civil rights is part of the issue.  It's a gross abuse and expansion of federal power.  Like it or lump it, the federal government is not empowered to act on all matters.  If Illinois were getting involved, I'd not be the one complaining.  In fact, Illinois should be the one hammering Chicago, if Chicago can't get it's act together on local crime enforcement it has absolutely nothing to do with the Federal government.  I'm troubled that we've gone so far you seem not even to question this as an abuse.

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Yes, murder is local, but there's precedent to the feds taking over where the states are failing there, going back decades and tied to the 14th amendment.

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No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

And which part of this, implies that a statistical difference in the impact on a race, for which there is no actual law that is intended to apply differently and for which the State is actively trying to resolve implies that the Federal government should be entitled to exceed its own authority?

Frankly, the interpretation that you're referring to was an abusive expansion of federal power in the first instance.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2017, 04:50:07 PM »
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Well first of all, defining murder as a violation of civil rights is part of the issue.  It's a gross abuse and expansion of federal power.  Like it or lump it, the federal government is not empowered to act on all matters

Horse biscuits. 14A was passed with intent, inter alia, to authorize Reconstruction, which included a perfectly appropriate occupation force to stop kkk sheetheads from murdering African Americans. 

The public torture of that kid in Chicago and the gunning down of mourners at a wake has more than a passing resemblance to the sheethead terrorism of yore. 

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Frankly, the interpretation that you're referring to was an abusive expansion of federal power in the first instance.
You don't like the cure, then lobby to repeal 14a.  Same thing I tell anti gun leftwits about 2a.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 04:54:18 PM by Pete at Home »

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump Threatens Chicago with Martial Law
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2017, 05:01:01 PM »
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And which part of this, implies that a statistical difference in the impact on a race, for which there is no actual law that is intended to apply differently and for which the State is actively trying to resolve implies that the Federal government should be entitled to exceed its own authority?

That sentence needs to be put out of its own misery. Rephrase with fewer than three usages of the Be verb within a single sentence? (that's generally where meaning breaks down).

I don't understand your exact meaning but tentatively agree that 14a contains no explicit trigger for disparate racial impact.  Although 14a obviously allows for such legislation in event that states are withdrawing protection from a particular race. That's tied to historical context of 14a, the reconstruction.  But there's a more general guarantee there of due process for all, which Rahm E, Obama, and apparently Trump all agree is invoked here. And I think they are right in this instance.

I hope that Trump credits Obama for the groundwork when he sends in the tanks. :)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 05:11:22 PM by Pete at Home »