Author Topic: let's cut the crap on gun control  (Read 5084 times)

Pete at Home

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let's cut the crap on gun control
« on: January 11, 2016, 01:18:01 AM »
In 2004, under George Bush Jr, the feds prosecuted 8,752 federal gun-violation cases. In 2013, under the Obama administration, the feds prosecuted only 5,082 cases — a decline of 42 percent from 10 years before.

Why does Obama stand, cry straight faced about the need to change laws when he has so notably slacked on enforcing existing laws?  Is it any wonder gun deaths have soared on his watch when his administration has bungled their duty to protect the people using existing laws?

AI Wessex

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2016, 06:51:03 AM »
Does this help?:
Quote
As fewer U.S. attorney’s take on cases from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and ATF itself refers less cases to the district attorney’s than in years past, official spokespeople blame sequestration and staffing woes for some of the drop-off.

Federal prosecutors brought 25 percent fewer cases in 2013 recommended by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, than in 2008, the last year of George W. Bush presidency, according to data obtained from the Executive Office of U.S. Attorneys. In addition, cases recommended for prosecution by ATF have declined 33 percent since 2004.

“ATF faces key resources challenges in staff attrition and system modernization,” Ginger Colbrun, an ATF spokeswoman said in an e-mailed statement. “As such, ATF’s “Frontline” business model now prioritizes our mission responsibilities, consistent with priority public safety concerns, particularly when resources are limited and difficult choices must be made with regard to priorities. Firearms violence, arson and explosives consistently and significantly impact public safety and therefore must be ATF’s first priority, consistent with the Department’s strategic goals.

“ATF staffing has decreased between 2010 and 2013, representing the lowest number of onboard staff since fiscal year 2004. Despite having the lowest number of agents in eight years, ATF initiated more than 21,000 criminal firearms investigations and more than 2,600 other investigations last year.”

Pete at Home

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2016, 09:13:30 PM »
So why isn't Obama making this an issue?  Why does focus on usurping legislative functions instead of doing his damn job with these executive functions?



Does this help?:
Quote
As fewer U.S. attorney’s take on cases from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and ATF itself refers less cases to the district attorney’s than in years past, official spokespeople blame sequestration and staffing woes for some of the drop-off.

Federal prosecutors brought 25 percent fewer cases in 2013 recommended by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, than in 2008, the last year of George W. Bush presidency, according to data obtained from the Executive Office of U.S. Attorneys. In addition, cases recommended for prosecution by ATF have declined 33 percent since 2004.

“ATF faces key resources challenges in staff attrition and system modernization,” Ginger Colbrun, an ATF spokeswoman said in an e-mailed statement. “As such, ATF’s “Frontline” business model now prioritizes our mission responsibilities, consistent with priority public safety concerns, particularly when resources are limited and difficult choices must be made with regard to priorities. Firearms violence, arson and explosives consistently and significantly impact public safety and therefore must be ATF’s first priority, consistent with the Department’s strategic goals.

“ATF staffing has decreased between 2010 and 2013, representing the lowest number of onboard staff since fiscal year 2004. Despite having the lowest number of agents in eight years, ATF initiated more than 21,000 criminal firearms investigations and more than 2,600 other investigations last year.”

D.W.

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2016, 10:06:06 AM »
Because as pointed out in the other gun thread, the current tactics are to villainize the opposition.  You are either an unbalanced conspiracy theorists pro gun nut job or you are a gun grabbing tyrant trying to soften up the nation before your brutal oppression begins.

Getting funding for expanded ATF resources and staff and enforcing existing laws even if successful would be just more status quo and not sexy enough to motivate voters.  Any political capital spent is always measured in its ability to motivate or expand your voter base or shrink and suppress that of your opposition.  Enforcing existing laws does neither of these.  In this regard, NOT funding these resources and staffing works towards the "smaller government" or "fiscal responsibility" narratives for the republican side.  This DOES motivate their voter base.

Think more cynically and politics makes a lot more sense.  :(

Pete at Home

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2016, 11:03:05 AM »
"Getting funding for expanded ATF resources and staff and enforcing existing laws even if successful would be just more status quo and not sexy enough to motivate voters"

If "motivating voters" is higher priority for this administration than preventing gun violence, what does that say about Mr O's sincerity?

 Something is Rotten when the chief executive makes usurpation of legislative powers a higher priority than his actual executive duties.

Something is perverse where criminalizing nonviolent behavior that is currently lawful, becomes higher priority than enforcing existing laws against laws against violent offenders.

Is it any wonder that gun violence has mushroomed under this admin?

"Think more cynically and politics makes a lot more sense.  "

Agreed and we'll said.

D.W.

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2016, 11:11:31 AM »
Quote
Is it any wonder that gun violence has mushroomed under this admin?
  It has?  Or we just talking the high profile mass shootings?

I got to say I enjoy the inference that we need to trust or respect or even like our politicians.  I just like mine mostly predictable.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 11:13:32 AM by D.W. »

Pete at Home

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2016, 11:27:39 AM »
"sequestration"

Sequestration resulted from a standoff between Congress and Obama.  What was Obama holding out for that was so much more important than holding the line against gun crimes and mass murder"

"It has?  Or we just talking the high profile mass shootings?"
Good question. I was just taking the Obaminions at their word that there was some growing issue of gun violence that needed to be addressed with gun control.  If that's so, then enforcing existing laws looks like higher priority than playing chicken with the constitution.

D.W.

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2016, 12:05:38 PM »
Don't have time to research it now.  Quick info I saw (from 2012ish) was that gun injuries was going up and gun homicides was still on the decline.  Without knowing more about the numbers that could just speaks to the effectiveness of our trauma surgeons and response times of ambulances. 

I thought in general crime was going down.  Including gun crime.  There's too much data lumped into the same pot to make a lot of sense out of it.  Though that does make it easier to pull out "evidence" to suit whatever point you are trying to make. 

I sometimes wonder if it's not both sides which are hesitant to see solid studies done on gun violence and gun ownership.

Wayward Son

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2016, 04:05:27 PM »
It turns out that the U.S. isn't very good about reporting and compiling crime statistics.

[/url=http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-to-make-sense-of-conflicting-confusing-and-misleading-crime-statistics/]This article points out how it is done badly.[/url]

And here is why murder rates aren't even good at measuring gun violence.

Of course, the bottom line is that shootings and murders don't have to go up to justify doing something about them.  At more than 9000 shooting murders in 2012 alone, they are way too high by any measure. :(

D.W.

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2016, 04:32:00 PM »
Agreed, but it is an interesting point  when faced with impassioned demands that we "must act now!"  There is no reason to accept current gun violence or deaths.  Acting as if this is some new problem and every new incident MUST be the straw that broke the camel's back and action is surely REQUIRED now!?!

The push-back against this argument / plea should make it obvious by now that it is ineffective.  It doesn't change minds, it galvanizes the opposition.  Until people face the fundamental argument (as I see it anyhow) that gun rights is an embodiment of a philosophy of self determination, you aren't going to get anywhere.

When faced with a world that is seen as threatening and unsafe you get one of two reactions.  "Help!  Someone protect me!" and "Don't you dare impede my ability to protect myself!"  The gap between these two is not insurmountable.  Compromise IS possible.  At least until you treat the opposite reaction to your own as alien, irrational or idiotic.

AI Wessex

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2016, 09:38:22 PM »
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So why isn't Obama making this an issue?  Why does focus on usurping legislative functions instead of doing his damn job with these executive functions?
How?  Funding is in the budget, and the budget was reduced by the sequestration. Do you imagine that the GOP Congress *wants* the ATF to do its job?  All he can do is do less or shift priorities from other critical functions, both of which the gun-loving Congress would attack him for at the same time they smile into their sleeves.

Pete at Home

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2016, 09:57:34 PM »
Pete: why didn't O make a bigger deal about getting funding for
ATF?

"How? "

BULLY PULPIT.  Unilateral action. Same tricks he uses now w closing legislative gaps like gun shows without legislative approval.

Pete at Home

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Re: let's cut the crap on gun control
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2016, 10:00:38 PM »
,"All he can do is do less or shift priorities from other critical functions, both of which the gun-loving Congress would attack him for at the same time they smile into their sleeves."

So what? He saves lives and gets attacked for it.  And calls them on their hypocrisy.  That's a big win for him.