Author Topic: Pelosi Townhall  (Read 2937 times)

Seriati

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Pelosi Townhall
« on: February 01, 2017, 11:22:09 AM »
What was the deal with Pelosi's townhall?  Why would CNN sponsor an hour of free air time billed to let the minority leader of the House answer questions about the Democratic plan to resist Trump?   Honestly, don't recall any such consideration ever having been granted to the Republicans at any time.   Did I just miss seeing it before, or is CNN so in the tank that no one even notices these kind of things anymore?

Watched a bit of it, and saw no insights into the resistance plan, just free air time for Pelosi to put out soft explanations and defenses of the Democratic plank.

Why no outrage over what appears to be the exact thing that Democrats have accused the Republicans of doing for 8 years - you know the "unprecedented" plans to oppose everything about Obama without any thought as to what the items were.  I guess, if your world view really accepted that Republican resistance was mindless and personal, rather than directly connected to the principals their voters care about, then its possible to may see mindless resistance as a parallel attack, but its really depressing that so many people would buy so far into a propaganda point.

D.W.

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2017, 11:35:31 AM »
That's what Democrats / Liberals need to solve (and fast). 
Between a rock and a hard place when you find both hypocrisy and Trump (his administration and his platform, as it's revealed/confirmed) repellent. 

TheDeamon

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2017, 11:53:52 AM »
I still expect Trump to shift towards the center. He's carrying out the platform items where his agenda overlaps best with the right-wing as that's a path of least resistance. Once that short list is done, and the Democratic Party + it's operatives have gone about jumping dozens of sharks regarding "What Trump's doing" he's going to head for for the political center.

And the Democrats are going to be _____ed.

NobleHunter

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2017, 12:00:51 PM »
There's a lot of unprecedented going around. Though Trump hasn't really proposed anything yet that Democrats and liberals might support.

There are probably no insights to the resistance plan because the Democrats are following rather than leading. A lot of them seem to think they can get by with business as usual.

It's probably bad optics for the very reasons you mention. On the other hand, what Fox News seems to do would obviate the need to get special air time. But that's more what I've been told about Fox rather than actually watching it.

TheDeamon

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2017, 12:05:12 PM »
The long held view was that MSNBC was the Liberal version of Fox News.

CNN basically just declared themselves as MSNBC2 so far as moderates and conservatives go.

Kasandra

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2017, 03:11:44 PM »
Quote
Why no outrage over what appears to be the exact thing that Democrats have accused the Republicans of doing for 8 years - you know the "unprecedented" plans to oppose everything about Obama without any thought as to what the items were.
If you thought the Republicans weren't deserving of that accusation then, for which there is 8 years of ample evidence, why get so in a lather about what Pelosi might say or do during Trump's incipient and likely much shorter term in office?

Kasandra

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2017, 03:13:01 PM »
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CNN basically just declared themselves as MSNBC2 so far as moderates and conservatives go.
I consider CNN to be a middle-of-the-road network.  Remember that reality itself is liberal and FOX News is an aberration.

TheDrake

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2017, 03:22:12 PM »
CNN is a trash plate no matter which way they lean. Terrible reporting, on the level of "retweeting" everything they read or see from other outlets. They are the Buzzfeed of cable tv.

Kasandra

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2017, 03:33:10 PM »
I think Anderson Cooper is outstanding and John King is a better than average data analyst.  Otherwise, for the most part the CNN regular staff (not the panelists) are only so-so.  Note that the quality of their reporting and overall analysis will certainly go up with the boycott by Trump mouthpieces.

TheDrake

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2017, 04:06:58 PM »
I don't know about the on-air presence, I mostly read transcripts and stories with only occasional footage. You can find all the criticisms out there, but mostly it is about reporting way too fast and not checking any facts with even one primary source before babbling about it. "This just in, Fox News is now reporting [something that we have no idea is true]. Tom, what do you think about [the uncorroborated thing we just repeated]?"


TheDeamon

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2017, 04:30:19 PM »
I don't know about the on-air presence, I mostly read transcripts and stories with only occasional footage. You can find all the criticisms out there, but mostly it is about reporting way too fast and not checking any facts with even one primary source before babbling about it. "This just in, Fox News is now reporting [something that we have no idea is true]. Tom, what do you think about [the uncorroborated thing we just repeated]?"

CNN is one of the biggest offenders in this. Because it acts as something of a legal shield for them. They didn't report the story, they just reported that somebody else reported a given thing. So if the report is wrong, well, no skin off their back.

And that they also have been one of the networks busted for blatant bias in the past(The Clinton campaign leaks isn't the first time the press has been caught in that proverbial cookie jar), or their speed in reporting heresy with immediate negative editorial slant whenever its something that might reflect poorly on Republicans, while they slow walk almost anything else that might reflect poorly upon the Democrats. Usually in order to give their editorial team some time to "explain away" whatever happened, if they bother to report on it at all(when they can't).

For breaking news they're decent, at least during the first hour or so before the (Left-ward) Editorial spin starts to happen.

Anderson Cooper is decent, but most of the rest of their newsroom, I'd trust them about as far as I could throw them.

Wayward Son

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2017, 04:58:04 PM »
Quote
Why no outrage over what appears to be the exact thing that Democrats have accused the Republicans of doing for 8 years - you know the "unprecedented" plans to oppose everything about Obama without any thought as to what the items were.
If you thought the Republicans weren't deserving of that accusation then, for which there is 8 years of ample evidence, why get so in a lather about what Pelosi might say or do during Trump's incipient and likely much shorter term in office?

Precisely, Kasandra.  No one will complain, because Democrats see it as payback, and Republicans see it as a legitimate action by the minority party.

Unless, of course, the Republicans have suddenly decided that it isn't fair, which makes one wonder where they were for the last 8 years... ;)

Pete at Home

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2017, 05:03:46 PM »
Quote
Why no outrage over what appears to be the exact thing that Democrats have accused the Republicans of doing for 8 years - you know the "unprecedented" plans to oppose everything about Obama without any thought as to what the items were.
If you thought the Republicans weren't deserving of that accusation then, for which there is 8 years of ample evidence, why get so in a lather about what Pelosi might say or do during Trump's incipient and likely much shorter term in office?

Precisely, Kasandra.  No one will complain, because Democrats see it as payback, and Republicans see it as a legitimate action by the minority party.

Unless, of course, the Republicans have suddenly decided that it isn't fair, which makes one wonder where they were for the last 8 years... ;)

I don't know.  If the Republicans carry through with their threat to not taking the nuclear option in the Senate, I may have to accuse them of some degree of moral consistency.

DJQuag

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2017, 05:38:43 PM »
I agree. It will be moral consistency.

It's just...man. I am so utterly sick and tired of politicians explaining their idiocy by invoking previous politicians doing the same crappy thing.

Pete at Home

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2017, 05:48:44 PM »
I agree. It will be moral consistency.

It's just...man. I am so utterly sick and tired of politicians explaining their idiocy by invoking previous politicians doing the same crappy thing.

I hear you.  But it's hard to argue otherwise when someone stands up and condemns Obama as the Anti-Christ for doing exactly what Clinton and Bush had done.  And when someone else calls Trump the reincarnation of Hitler for continuing Obama's policies.

TheDeamon

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2017, 06:09:40 PM »
Quote
Why no outrage over what appears to be the exact thing that Democrats have accused the Republicans of doing for 8 years - you know the "unprecedented" plans to oppose everything about Obama without any thought as to what the items were.
If you thought the Republicans weren't deserving of that accusation then, for which there is 8 years of ample evidence, why get so in a lather about what Pelosi might say or do during Trump's incipient and likely much shorter term in office?

Precisely, Kasandra.  No one will complain, because Democrats see it as payback, and Republicans see it as a legitimate action by the minority party.

Unless, of course, the Republicans have suddenly decided that it isn't fair, which makes one wonder where they were for the last 8 years... ;)

Republicans might decide to call it "payback" as well. Change the rule, vote him in, change the rule back. Then leave all those other rules the Democrats changed in place until they've done their bit, than change that back too.

You do realize the Republicans have left the existing 51 vote rules in place because they said they were going to have their turn at it too if the Dems did so?

Besides which, in the case of this SCotUS seat, it was previously home to an arch-conservative justice, with the bench being as it is, the court is moving to the left almost regardless of who they put in if they're even somewhat palatable to Dems at this point.

Wayward Son

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2017, 03:39:54 PM »
Quote
Why no outrage over what appears to be the exact thing that Democrats have accused the Republicans of doing for 8 years - you know the "unprecedented" plans to oppose everything about Obama without any thought as to what the items were.
If you thought the Republicans weren't deserving of that accusation then, for which there is 8 years of ample evidence, why get so in a lather about what Pelosi might say or do during Trump's incipient and likely much shorter term in office?

Precisely, Kasandra.  No one will complain, because Democrats see it as payback, and Republicans see it as a legitimate action by the minority party.

Unless, of course, the Republicans have suddenly decided that it isn't fair, which makes one wonder where they were for the last 8 years... ;)

Republicans might decide to call it "payback" as well. Change the rule, vote him in, change the rule back. Then leave all those other rules the Democrats changed in place until they've done their bit, than change that back too.

You do realize the Republicans have left the existing 51 vote rules in place because they said they were going to have their turn at it too if the Dems did so?

Oh, yeah, that's how feuds work.  One guy does something bad.  The next guy does something bad to get back at him.  The first guy ignores what he did and only remembers what the next guy did, so does something bad to get back at him.  Ad infinitum.

The only way to break the cycle is for one guy to stop.

From what I'm hearing, the Democrats don't have much stomach to go all out against Trump like the Republicans did against Obama, so I think you'll see more cooperation than Obama got, especially for programs that the Democrats have been pushing for (and road blocked) for the past 6 years.

But Republicans better not complain when the Democrats do block them (although you know they will :) ).  Because they perfected it in the last 6 years.

Quote
Besides which, in the case of this SCotUS seat, it was previously home to an arch-conservative justice, with the bench being as it is, the court is moving to the left almost regardless of who they put in if they're even somewhat palatable to Dems at this point.

Perhaps not.  By one measure, Gorsuch is actually to the right of Alito.  ???  And if Ginsburg or Kennedy dies or retires, the court will definitely swing to the right from where it is today.  And, after sitting on Garland's nomination for so long, you know that the Republicans will not let anything stand in their way of putting in their preferred nominee.  (Trump has already asked McConnel to use the Nuclear Option if there is a filibuster. :( )

Pete at Home

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2017, 04:02:32 PM »
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From what I'm hearing, the Democrats don't have much stomach to go all out against Trump like the Republicans did against Obama, so I think you'll see more cooperation than Obama got, especially for programs that the Democrats have been pushing for (and road blocked) for the past 6 years.

Some of the Democrats are realizing that the anti-Trump coalition is increasingly dominated by an element that's uglier than Trump.

Seriati

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2017, 04:46:29 PM »
Oh, yeah, that's how feuds work.  One guy does something bad.  The next guy does something bad to get back at him.  The first guy ignores what he did and only remembers what the next guy did, so does something bad to get back at him.  Ad infinitum.

Can't recall, didn't you argue in favor of the nuclear option when the Dems used it?

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The only way to break the cycle is for one guy to stop.

That's a dubious proposition.  There's no guaranty that it actually gets the other guy to stop, even in violence where the expression originated.  But here its more like a suckers bet.  There is no chance that the Dems will not use the option next time they "really need it" to overcome Republican obstructionism.  Better to quit pretending that we can go back.

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From what I'm hearing, the Democrats don't have much stomach to go all out against Trump like the Republicans did against Obama, so I think you'll see more cooperation than Obama got, especially for programs that the Democrats have been pushing for (and road blocked) for the past 6 years.

I think the Democrats are having a serious debate over the consequences of their actions.  Trump got elected, in part, by appealing to traditional Democratic base voters.  Mindless opposition to all of his positions, even those that those voters like, risks a permanent schism of part of the base. 

There are definitely Democrats like Machin that will suffer no electoral consequences from backing Trump on moderate or even conservative positions, but that would risk defeat backing hard left positions.  They're pushing for the Democrats to engage (think Reagan Democrats all over again) and if they win the debate, there's every reason to believe that "moderate" Democrats will be able to have a pretty big voice on a number of policies (remember Trump hasn't been lock-step with the Republican establishment and is less beholden).  There are lots of positives to being seen as moderate and reasonable.

On the other hand, the extreme part of the base is all fired up, and there are a bunch of Senators that want to go with them.  They're looking at a calculus of whether in 2 years, and in 4 years that base will still be fired up and growing, or whether its so offensive that it'll provoke a backlash.  When you look at Trump's election as a result of a backlash against the persistent name calling of the far left, that's real fear. 

What you're seeing is a party caught with valid pulls in multiple directions, where each individual is response to a different mix of voters that starts with extreme left and hostile, all the way to mixed red and blue with a heavy resentment at being left behind.  Personally, I think they'd be better off (and the country) with engagement, but much like with the Republicans over the last year I think they'll each go along with their home districts voting preference for the most part.

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But Republicans better not complain when the Democrats do block them (although you know they will :) ).  Because they perfected it in the last 6 years.

If Trump governs as far to the right as Obama did from the left (which is frankly unlikely) and Democrats feel they have to resist him as a matter of principal like the Republicans did, so be it.  If on the other hand, they try to sell that statement of yours as reality and engage in mindless opposition then they'll just be adding a new low to debate.

Wayward Son

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2017, 01:02:35 PM »
Oh, yeah, that's how feuds work.  One guy does something bad.  The next guy does something bad to get back at him.  The first guy ignores what he did and only remembers what the next guy did, so does something bad to get back at him.  Ad infinitum.

Can't recall, didn't you argue in favor of the nuclear option when the Dems used it?

I agreed with the "nuclear option" when it applied to lower court judges (IIRC), but not for Supreme Court judges.  Those positions are too important to take away the minority party's voice, IMHO.  As I recall, I felt that when the Democrats were in charge, and still do.

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The only way to break the cycle is for one guy to stop.

That's a dubious proposition.  There's no guaranty that it actually gets the other guy to stop, even in violence where the expression originated.  But here its more like a suckers bet.  There is no chance that the Dems will not use the option next time they "really need it" to overcome Republican obstructionism.  Better to quit pretending that we can go back.

Except the Democrats didn't use it when they had the chance the last time. ;)

Of course, if everyone, or just one sides, assumes the other side will break with tradition the next chance they have, then we've already lost.  Each side will take whatever advantages it can get when it's in power, and step back any advantages the other side had.  The country will jerk itself left and right with each change of power until it finally shakes itself apart. :(

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But Republicans better not complain when the Democrats do block them (although you know they will :) ).  Because they perfected it in the last 6 years.

If Trump governs as far to the right as Obama did from the left (which is frankly unlikely) and Democrats feel they have to resist him as a matter of principal like the Republicans did, so be it.  If on the other hand, they try to sell that statement of yours as reality and engage in mindless opposition then they'll just be adding a new low to debate.

I fully expect that Trump will govern far, far more to the right than Obama did to the left (except when he completely betrays conservative principles and does something that is more left than anything Obama ever tried :) ).  So I'm not worried about that.  And anyone who pays attention will hear that Democrats have good reason for every step of their opposition.  Of course, you won't hear that from Fox News. ;)

My greatest hope, though, is that Conservatives will remember the predictions that Liberals made about Trump before he came into office and during the first weeks.  Because we can see what a disaster this Presidency will be.  So that, when they see these predictions coming true and realize how bad the President really is, they will once again start to listen to and consider what Liberals have to say, so we can have a true discussion again on how to solve our nation's problems, rather than just ignoring, belittling, and demonizing us.

Maybe then we can make America great again.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 01:07:10 PM by Wayward Son »

scifibum

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Re: Pelosi Townhall
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2017, 01:33:53 PM »
Seriati: you missed it.  Here's a really recent one:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/12/politics/paul-ryan-town-hall/