Author Topic: Left Wing Caricature  (Read 9051 times)

TheDeamon

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Left Wing Caricature
« on: February 14, 2017, 02:33:14 PM »
I guess after getting a sampling of some of the sound bites from The Grammy's, and in light of the multitude of protests that have been happening lately. I just have to observe that it is rather remarkable to see the Left-wing come out in a full display of fear and rage, almost literally rendering themselves as a caricature of the very thing that many people turned out to vote against when they voted for Trump.

To paraphrase Star Wars, "I sense much fear in the force, I do. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the Dark Side."

Reality is, the protests are accomplishing not much, particularly when it comes to the people who voted Trump. If anything, it's probably just further re-affirming their reasons for having done so. That some of the rather hyperbolic rhetoric is coming from those same protests just adds to the divide as they're undoubtedly "jumping the shark" on a number of issues, and they're just putting even more distance between themselves and everybody else.

Refusal to even associate with people who hold differing views just further compounds their problem. It allows them fall further "out of step" with the mainstream and right wing alike, which will in turn make rapprochement that much more of a challenge for them later on.

Although I think a better comparison may actually be a different model entirely, although I wouldn't be surprised if some go down the above path. ;)

Although this one is talking about death/terminal illness:

https://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/

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1. Denial & Isolation
The first reaction to learning about . . . is to deny the reality of the situation. “This isn’t happening, this can’t be happening,” people often think. It is a normal reaction to rationalize overwhelming emotions. It is a defense mechanism that buffers the immediate shock of the loss. We block out the words and hide from the facts. This is a temporary response that carries us through the first wave of pain.

Unfriending Trump supporters/conservatives in general, general "freak outs" and a lot of the other reactions that have been getting noted in conservative circles.

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2. Anger

As the masking effects of denial and isolation begin to wear, reality and its pain re-emerge. We are not ready. The intense emotion is deflected from our vulnerable core, redirected and expressed instead as anger.

Need I elaborate on this?

Going to switch to wiki from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model
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3. Bargaining
The third stage involves the hope that the individual can avoid a cause of grief.

This one should be interesting when/if this stage starts to manifest.

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4. Depression
"I'm so sad, why bother with anything?" . . .
During the fourth stage, the individual despairs at the recognition of their mortality. In this state, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time mournful and sullen.
May not bode so well for 2018....

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5. Acceptance
"It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it; I may as well prepare for it."
In this last stage, individuals embrace mortality or inevitable future

Would be highly interesting to see what form that would take, and what it possibly means in the longer-term.

Although the substance abuse version is amusing in this context:
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Denial: People feel that they do not have a problem concerning alcohol or other substances. Even if they do feel as if they might have a small problem they believe that they have complete control over the situation and can stop drinking or doing drugs whenever they want. Example: "I don't have to drink all of the time. I can stop whenever I want."

Anger: The anger stage of abusers relates to how they get upset because they have an addiction or are angry that they can no longer use drugs. Some of these examples include "I don't want to have this addiction anymore." "This isn't fair, I'm too young to have this problem."

Bargaining: This is the stage that drug and alcohol abusers go through when they are trying to convince themselves or someone else that they are going to stop abusing in order to get something out of it or get themselves out of trouble (or to justify continuing their use of drugs and/or alcohol). Example: "God, I promise I'll never use again if you just get me out of trouble." "...If you let me stay here, I will never do drugs/alcohol again."

Depression: Sadness and hopelessness are important parts of the depression stage when drug abusers are faced with the reality of living a life without their substance of choice. Most abusers experience this when they are going through the withdrawal stage quitting their addiction.

Acceptance: With substance abusers, admitting the existence of a problem is different from accepting the problem. When a substance abuser admits that he/she has a problem, this is more likely to occur in the bargaining stage. Accepting that he/she has a problem is when you realise that you have a problem and start the process to resolve the issue.

DJQuag

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2017, 05:21:11 PM »
I was completely on board with the idea that Trumpiots could be talked with and talked to, *during the election.*

Now? The damage is done. If you're truly a person who stands against Trump and what he wants to do, the only thing you can do is bitch and moan just as loud as possible.

The man calls factual reporting fake news and there are tens of millions who go along with it and eat it up.

There comes a point where talking with the other side is done. Considering how his first three weeks have gone, I really don't see Trump remaining popular with anyone other then the alternative facts crowd for very long. He's going to fsil. He's going to fail hard. And I'm not going to blame people and politicians who can see that before it's shoved in everyone's face anymore then I blamed anti GW2 people and pols in 2003.

These days, being against the second Iraq war is something to hang your hat on. Trump even lied about being against it.

Wayward Son

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2017, 06:33:53 PM »
Protests, rallies, and marches are not to bring the other side to your point-of-view.  And they aren't for bringing over those who voted for Trump.

They are to express anger and to get organized.  And to put others on notice that there are people who are willing to get up, get together, and do something.

Believe it or not, I'm not really a political person.  I haven't gone to a protest or rally since college, except for a Trump rally in San Diego a few months ago, and that was because I had a vacation day and not much else to do. :)  I'm not a member of political action groups or any such stuff.  I pretty much keep to myself.  And I've done this through the Reagan Administration and both Bush Administrations, even though I was both horrified and mystified that Bush II was re-elected.  ::)

Last month, I attended a meeting of the local Democratic Club for the first time.  I'm pretty much planning on attending the March for Science.  I signed up with a local climate change organization.  And I should be joining the ACLU for the first time in my life.

If Trump getting me involved, how many others are getting involved that weren't before?  And how much more involved are those who were involved before?

I'm not angry so much as scared.  Scared that the ignorant egomaniac in the White House will cause long-lasting and significant damage to our nation.  My worst fears are him instituting a tyranny and/or starting a nuclear war.  I can't do much about nukes, but I can stop a tyranny.

I've been through disappointing elections before.  This is far beyond that.  Trump is a fool who has been given the keys to the State.  And like a 10-year-old driving a semi-truck, we don't know what he will do.  But you know he'll do something, and it ain't gonna be good.

One last thought.  Before you dismiss the marches and the rallies, like Trump has done, consider for a moment the Tea Party.  They had rallies and marches, too--tiny things, nothing close to the Women's March on the day after Trump's inauguration.  And look what they were able to accomplish.

This may seem like a caricature to you.  But there is mass and energy behind it.  So watch out.  It's going to be a wild ride. :D

TheDeamon

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2017, 06:55:23 PM »
One last thought.  Before you dismiss the marches and the rallies, like Trump has done, consider for a moment the Tea Party.  They had rallies and marches, too--tiny things, nothing close to the Women's March on the day after Trump's inauguration.  And look what they were able to accomplish.

This may seem like a caricature to you.  But there is mass and energy behind it.  So watch out.  It's going to be a wild ride. :D

The "energy" on this one is different, it feels more like "Occupy Wallstreet" to me, and sounds a lot like "occupy" to me. I don't doubt they're not going to fade away like they did last time, albeit they took a long time to do so that time as well.

I also don't actively question the depth of its support. What I do question however, is the breadth of the support it actually has.

Yes, most of the population is "urban" now, and the anti-Trump stuff is overwhelmingly urban in nature. However, as the Electoral College demonstrated, the Urban population doesn't (yet) fully dictate the politics of the United States of America. They may have the "popular will" but they don't have the "congressional will" to go with it, as the EC confirmed, and the congressional outcomes backed it as well. "Rural America" controls the Senate, and "Rural America" still retains nominal control over the House, and that isn't likely to change until the 2022 election cycle at the earliest after some more redistricting.

"The left" does have the benefit of making many of the "right wing" (Myself included) cringe on a number of factors, but that goes back to depth vs breadth. A number of those protesters you might have seen reports of in more rural/conservative areas? They're probably not Democratic voters, they're Republicans/Conservatives who think they're making a stand on principles, much as they did with the Tea Party, where they fought the Republican Party as well as the Democrats.

Don't think the Conservatives packed it all in just because Trump's in office, they didn't. He scares them too, albeit mostly for other reasons, although there is overlap with Dems on some points.

So once again, The Democrats are not looking at reality. Of course, neither is Trump, and the Washington Republicans have been doing a decent job of ignoring reality for 8 years already, so we'll see who(besides Trump) turns out to be more deluded in all of this.

Right now, I'm still leaning towards it being the Democrats. They're going full on "Chicken Little" with Trump, and most(not all) of what they've been doing it over is just nuts at this stage in things. The sky isn't falling, entrenched interests are just that, and called as much for good reason. Trump was going to have a hard enough time trying to do a lot of his more outlandish things without people running around proclaiming that the sky is falling because he is in office.

Which is the most dangerous thing they've done all things considered, because they've made that declaration, and in 2 years, when their promised Armageddon has failed to materialize, they're likely going to have problems at the ballot box. From members of their own side being disenfranchised/demoralized after working themselves up to this high tizzy over a "non-event" that isn't wildly different Washington normal, and nothing having happened. To the moderates and conservatives who will simply ignore them next time.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2017, 07:00:27 PM »
I'm thinking the difference this time may just be social media and the larger echo chamber and positive reinforcement it provides for your point of view as well as how much easier it makes it to organize.

I like what Bill Maher said about how Bush, McCain, and Romney were all called Hitler. I'm not sure if Reagan was called Hitler or not but he was certainly vilified as much as or even more than all the rest. The fact is this is just what the left does, and the do it all the time, every time. They would have done it to Cruz, or Rubio, or anyone else the Republicans put up, even Kasich. The proof if that there hasn't been a single time where they haven't done it. Gotta give credit for consistency. It's all just a political tactic and can't be taken seriously anymore.

The only reason it seems like something more this time is simply social media along with a complicit press that amplifies their temper tantrums and puts a microscope on even the most trivial and ridiculous criticisms about Trump, like we just saw with the fake news Trudeau handshake hesitation picture.

http://time.com/4669566/justin-trudeau-donald-trump-washington-handshake/

I mean I find the image as amusing as anybody but some media stories are running with this like it's real news when all it's just a fantastic meme and that's all.

The point is that all of this is just another leftist tempest in a teapot, full of sound a fury but signifying nothing.

I get that the opposition is real and it's sincere. But it was real and sincere every time before from Nixon to Reagan and Bush to McCain and Romney. That's just the way it is and the way it will always be. And that's fine. The fireworks just seem to be exploding in brighter colors now because of advances in technology that provide for more spectacular images.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 07:03:19 PM by cherrypoptart »

TheDeamon

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2017, 07:00:40 PM »
I also don't actively question the depth of its support. What I do question however, is the breadth of the support it actually has.

In other words: High energy, and wildly popular, but ultimately meaningless, because virtually all of the energy, and popular support, exists in a selected range of "enclaves" because they're highly concentrated and that those areas were going to be opposed to such things anyhow. So ultimately, pointless.

The Tea Party was high energy, highly dispersed, and active in areas where they could, and did, swing things in a conservative direction. The Liberal response in many of those areas? They left for more Liberal/"accepting" communities.

TheDeamon

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2017, 07:10:18 PM »
The only reason it seems like something more this time is simply social media along with a complicit press that amplifies their temper tantrums and puts a microscope on even the most trivial and ridiculous criticisms about Trump, like we just saw with the fake news Trudeau handshake hesitation picture.

Well, the other thing is that Trump gives them a whole truckload of material to work with on an ongoing basis. He isn't a career politician, even if he's worked with them throughout his own career.

The politics he's used to is the politics of a boardroom, where the public face and the "behind closed doors face" can be wildly different things. And in the corporate world, there wasn't as much scrutiny applied to his activities.

He hasn't learned to keep his mouth shut, and he's used to working in an environment where he could dictate the terms of said environment. He no longer fully controls said environment, and  he doesn't have the kind of control over things he's used to having in his business empire. Until he adjusts to those things, we're getting "The President (mostly) Unfiltered" which is something the United States probably hasn't seen at any time in the modern era. Which is a lot of what is freaking people out right now.

In LDS terms, the American Public, and the World at large, hasn't figured out when they're hearing "Trump the person" speaking, or "Trump the President" speaking. While "Trump the person" is indeed the President, that doesn't mean that "the person" is always going to be agreeable with what "the President" does. So just because Trump says something doesn't mean that's now government policy.

D.W.

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2017, 09:30:26 PM »
That is indeed what "freaks me out" TheDeamon.  I'm not thrilled with the naked prostituting of our government departments either.  To continue the metaphor, I was more use to seeing the high priced classy escorts who tended to stay out of the direct spotlight most of the time while conducting business...

But MOSTLY it's Trump the persona being a total disconnect with everything I've come to believe represents being presidential.  Dealing with a Republican dominated government isn't the end of the world or even a national disaster in my book.  A set back, sure.  But this guy reacts (or seems to) from the gut, not deliberation with the best and brightest he could find to surround himself with.

I think my stress level about all things politics would drop by... say 25% if he did nothing else but drop his twitter account.

Pete at Home

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2017, 09:58:08 PM »
I think Trump is used to politicians of all political wings kissing his ass because they wanted his money and publicity.  But now that he's in direct competition with them, and kicking their asses with 1/10 the money, changing all the rules of the game, they are going Bonzo on his Ender.  And the sad thing is, he's no Ender.  Those losers hate him so much that their strategy is to try to make the guy with his finger on the nuclear button have an emotional meltdown.  They actually say this in public, trying to make him crack.  Talk about stupid.

NobleHunter

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2017, 10:55:03 AM »
In LDS terms, the American Public, and the World at large, hasn't figured out when they're hearing "Trump the person" speaking, or "Trump the President" speaking. While "Trump the person" is indeed the President, that doesn't mean that "the person" is always going to be agreeable with what "the President" does. So just because Trump says something doesn't mean that's now government policy.
That's not a privilege the President gets to have. A lot of people are always going to assume that whatever Trump says reflects the beliefs of his administration. Even if it is just Trump's opinion people are still going to assume it factors into policy decisions. Since the President isn't a powerless figurehead, there's no way to separate Trump's beliefs from his administration's policy. All this presumes that Trump would even try to maintain a separation between his personal self and his public servant self.

I think Trump is used to politicians of all political wings kissing his ass because they wanted his money and publicity.  But now that he's in direct competition with them, and kicking their asses with 1/10 the money, changing all the rules of the game, they are going Bonzo on his Ender.  And the sad thing is, he's no Ender.  Those losers hate him so much that their strategy is to try to make the guy with his finger on the nuclear button have an emotional meltdown.  They actually say this in public, trying to make him crack.  Talk about stupid.
They're trying to get him to crack now so he doesn't go off during at a critical moment. Imagine if Trump loses it during something like the Cuban Missile Crisis. If he can't hack it--and there's plenty of reasons to think he can't--then he needs to go sooner rather than later.

Fenring

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2017, 11:17:06 AM »
In LDS terms, the American Public, and the World at large, hasn't figured out when they're hearing "Trump the person" speaking, or "Trump the President" speaking. While "Trump the person" is indeed the President, that doesn't mean that "the person" is always going to be agreeable with what "the President" does. So just because Trump says something doesn't mean that's now government policy.
That's not a privilege the President gets to have. A lot of people are always going to assume that whatever Trump says reflects the beliefs of his administration. Even if it is just Trump's opinion people are still going to assume it factors into policy decisions. Since the President isn't a powerless figurehead, there's no way to separate Trump's beliefs from his administration's policy. All this presumes that Trump would even try to maintain a separation between his personal self and his public servant self.

You know what? I was almost about to agree with you, but then I realized that one of the core criticisms people have of politicians is that they never say what they think, and instead only utter political phrases designed to generate support. They are political machines, and not people, in their speech habits. So here we get a President who is the opposite - he speaks his mind freely and all the time, and these statements aren't exclusively political or strategic, but are off-the-cuff remarks. You could argue that they are, in fact, strategic, but never mind that for now. What I'm saying is that Trump is actually doing what people for a long time have desired a politician to do, and how he's being accused of "not being presidential" for doing it. Well you really can't have it both ways; a President is either going to speak like a President at all times (i.e. live as a political animal and keep his actual thoughts out of the picture) or else he'll say things "as a person" some of the time rather than "as a President."

I really feel like the outrage here is against him, personally, and not against his methods. If Obama had communicated with the public over Twitter, posted jokes, funny comments, and so forth, people would have hailed him as being in touch with the people, personable, and less phony than his predecessors. They would have loved it. A social media President? It would have gone over really well if the President in question was already a pop icon. But people hated Trump so much coming in that anything he did was going to be flamed to oblivion regardless of what it was, unless he managed to cure cancer and usher in world peace all at the same time. I maintain that the antipathy people feel towards his Twitter usage and his constant offhand remarks aren't really about those methods, but simply about how HE uses those methods. A really popular President doing those same things would get loud applause. 

D.W.

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2017, 11:33:32 AM »
To be fair, I hated twitter long before Trump's tweets became news.

As one of "them", I'll be one of the first to say you are wrong.  I found the times I was lest favorable towards Obama was when he spoke off the cuff and got personal about issues where a more measured political response was (IMO) more appropriate.

This is not OK, no matter what policies or agenda one is pushing.  Even someone I found funny and convincing and clever over twitter, with a platform I supported, I would look down on them for its use. 

POTUS doesn't get do over's.  They can't react to criticism this way (without damaging the entire country).

Fenring

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2017, 11:41:39 AM »
I'm not defending Trump's statements of behavior on a general basis. But consider for a moment when Obama did 'popular' approach type things like appearing on "Between Two Ferns" and other cute PR moves like that. It generated a positive response, no? Now, that doesn't mean Twitter is the same thing as appearing in comedy sketches, but as time moves forward there will be many methods of using media forms to present the President in a way other 'being serious.' Trump has certainly jumped ahead in that regard and gone whole hog on using social media to speak out, and I wish he'd do so in a constructive manner. I mean, it would be something at least if his comments actually tended to be funny. Overall I don't entirely disagree with you, but only meant to point out that I think the things he says and does are treated as harshly as they are because it's HIM, not because of the things themselves.

D.W.

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2017, 12:11:05 PM »
I get your point.  I've heard it from my uncle, my father and my brother... 
I find it shocking and upsetting.  So, I will go so far as to say that to a certain type, you are correct.  This is what they want.

It's hard NOT to come off as elitist in response to this, but here it is.  Among those inclined to oppose Trump, I think you will see a correlation of being opposed to a sitting president giving us such an unvarnished reactive view into their thoughts at the speed of a tweet.

Fenring

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2017, 12:23:43 PM »
I get your point.  I've heard it from my uncle, my father and my brother... 
I find it shocking and upsetting.  So, I will go so far as to say that to a certain type, you are correct.  This is what they want.

It's hard NOT to come off as elitist in response to this, but here it is.  Among those inclined to oppose Trump, I think you will see a correlation of being opposed to a sitting president giving us such an unvarnished reactive view into their thoughts at the speed of a tweet.

Maybe so. But consider that until now Presidential Tweeting wasn't a thing, and so by and large I would have expected the overall view of that to be either "never thought of that" or "huh it sounds weird", with a some people probably being against it on principle. It's the sort of thing that wouldn't get popular support until it was already done and proved to be ok or even a good thing. Twitter has a negative reputation amongst some people already, regardless of who's doing the Tweeting, which should figure into how we assess this issue. What I was suggesting is that if a popular [Democrat] President was in power and using Twitter to good effect I don't think we'd be seeing this backlash; rather we might begin to see people shifting their views about such uses of media. But as it is Trump's use of media is further alienating his detractors, and I have no idea what it's doing to his supporters.

Regarding how Presidential a President should seem, I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, I think Presidents have largely ceased to be leaders and that various media should be used by a President to reach the people. On the other hand that doesn't mean we want a President clowning around all the time like one of the boys. But I do think there is some niche for coming Presidents to occupy in the public arena that have previously stood vacant, with Presidential addresses restricted to State of the Union and formal affairs. I don't think that's good either.

NobleHunter

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2017, 12:25:55 PM »
Obama still recognized he was President all the time, not just when it was convenient. Trump seems incapable of asking himself "should the President really say this?" If he demonstrated any ability for circumspectness, I'd give him more slack for wanting to be "authentic" on Twitter. I'm not asking him to run everything by a PR rep (though it'd help) just to act with an awareness that there is a certain dignity to his office, even if he chooses to be undignified on occasion.

TheDeamon

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2017, 12:30:33 PM »
I'm not asking him to run everything by a PR rep (though it'd help) just to act with an awareness that there is a certain dignity to his office, even if he chooses to be undignified on occasion.

Well, I guess you don't want him to follow Thomas Jefferson's example then, at least to the maximum extent the Secret Service would let him.

Seriati

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2017, 01:14:02 PM »
Obama still recognized he was President all the time, not just when it was convenient. Trump seems incapable of asking himself "should the President really say this?" If he demonstrated any ability for circumspectness, I'd give him more slack for wanting to be "authentic" on Twitter. I'm not asking him to run everything by a PR rep (though it'd help) just to act with an awareness that there is a certain dignity to his office, even if he chooses to be undignified on occasion.

So he was acting presidential when he went off without knowing any of the facts and said that the police were "acting stupidly" when they arrested Henry Gates in Cambridge? 

There are plenty of cringe worthy Obama quotes out there, particularly self aggrandizing ones where they aren't particularly presidential.  Trump brings cringe worthy to a new level, but there is definitely a lot of selective outrage going around.

NobleHunter

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2017, 01:18:33 PM »
I'll be sure to include the proper 2 minute hate for Obama next time I want to criticize Trump. I'll add this failure to my next self-criticism session.

Seriati

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2017, 01:24:52 PM »
Lol NobleHunter, no need for that.  You were the one that made the comparison, I was just pointing out that its a comparison that is being made to an idealized version of Obama and not the real one.

TheDrake

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2017, 01:57:11 PM »

So he was acting presidential when he went off without knowing any of the facts and said that the police were "acting stupidly" when they arrested Henry Gates in Cambridge? 

That's only part of the quote, as you know.

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I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in that. But I think it's fair to say, number one, any of us would be pretty angry; number two, that the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home

All of that is true, even if you accept Crowley's version of those events. They knew it was his house, the only thing he was doing is yelling at them, and they could have just walked away.

This doesn't begin to compare to Trump. He would be unlikely to qualify his pontifications with "I don't know all the facts", for starters. His version of this (without changing the view) would read something like:

So-called Cambridge police arrest black man for standing on his own front porch. Sad!


Pete at Home

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2017, 04:46:54 PM »
Quote
So-called Cambridge police arrest black man for standing on his own front porch. Sad!

 ;D

Beautiful channel.  You need to do this more often.  Can you do the Gettysburg address in twitterspeak?

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This doesn't begin to compare to Trump. He would be unlikely to qualify his pontifications with "I don't know all the facts", for starters.

Right, but that goes without saying in the context of a Trump tweet.  For heaven's sake, our President takes his briefings direct from Fox News, which to my knowledge hasn't been vetted by Congress.

Obama's statement sounds more sober, but is arguably more damaging than your spoof because it comes with the ethos and credibility of a Nobel Prize winning, highly articulate President.

Wayward Son

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2017, 11:56:18 AM »
Quote
Right, but that goes without saying in the context of a Trump tweet.

For you it does.  But how about for Trump? ;)

Pete at Home

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2017, 12:25:17 PM »
Quote
Right, but that goes without saying in the context of a Trump tweet.

For you it does.  But how about for Trump? ;)

I have no idea what goes on in Trump's head.   But I see a fundamental flaw in this argument:

"Trump is unstable.
It's bad to have an unstable man in charge of the nuclear football and the world's largest superpower.
For the safety of the world, we need to remove him.
Let's remove him by attacking everything he does regardless of merit, by ridiculing him personally, by calling his wife a whore and publicly insinuating incest with his daughter, use tactics that would make anyone break down and do something stupid.
Pushing an unstable man with his finger on the nuclear trigger to the breaking point, will make us all safer"

D.W.

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2017, 12:48:34 PM »
Well when you say it that way...    ::)

Wayward Son

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2017, 02:38:52 PM »
You miss a few basic points there, Pete.

1.  Every President is ridiculed.  Obama was called the Anti-Christ, a Muslim, part of the Muslim Brotherhood, a homosexual, a terrorist sympathizers, an idiot, and so on.  His wife was called a whore.  This is how politics has been for a long time.  Trump would be called these things regardless of who he is; he's the President.  And no one can control it or stop it.  (At least as long as the First Amendment holds.) :(

2.  If name-calling and baseless insinuations can break him, what makes you think he could withstand it under the normal pressures of the job?  If insinuating that he wants to bed his daughter might make him do something irrational, what will having North Korea's leader calling him a gutless pig-poker do to him?  You think he'll take insults from Kim Jong-un if he won't from Bill Maher? ;)

Being President is a tough job, where your ego is assaulted on almost a daily basis.  If he can't handle it, he'd best get out of the kitchen.

Better to break him now, when there is no international crisis to justify using the button, than where there would be some doubt and his aides might let him do it without question. :(

TheDeamon

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2017, 02:46:00 PM »
Better to break him now, when there is no international crisis to justify using the button, than where there would be some doubt and his aides might let him do it without question. :(

At least until you consider the possibility that other actors on the international stage may decide to participate "in the festivities" as it were, and are ready and very willing to take advantage of situation should such a "breakdown event" take place. As the United States will be experiencing a power vacuum and have most of its attention focused inward, thus leaving them free to act out on the international stage largely unhindered and unencumbered by the Government of the United States of America.

So by trying to "break Trump" in order "to be safer in the event of an international crises" they are actually creating the very conditions for such a crises to actually happen... Through no fault of Trumps, but rather their own machinations.

So does that mean that if China invades Taiwan upon Trump having a mental breakdown, we can start bringing Left-Wing pundits up on charges of High Treason?

Wayward Son

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2017, 02:48:13 PM »
Better to bring up the Republican Party on charges of treason for electing someone who would break down under the normal pressures of the office. ;)

D.W.

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2017, 03:00:50 PM »
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So does that mean that if China invades Taiwan upon Trump having a mental breakdown, we can start bringing Left-Wing pundits up on charges of High Treason?
I don't think High Treason fits.  You can blame them, maybe even charge them with something, but would that be treasonous or just reckless?  I'd expect the line of attack would be through setting up conditions where international treaties and agreements with allies were broken or impossible to uphold.

Maybe I'm wrong but aren't Treason charges mostly pointed inward rather than, "Wow, look how you dicked over our allies?"

TheDeamon

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2017, 04:14:17 PM »
Maybe I'm wrong but aren't Treason charges mostly pointed inward rather than, "Wow, look how you dicked over our allies?"

Typically yes, however, Treason, at its core, is a crime deliberately committed against the national interests of your own nation. So in that respect, screwing over our allies, and setting back our national interests by a considerable margin could be construed as a form of treason.

Edit: Of course, it is that same vagueness of trying to establish "what is in the national interest?" that tends to very tightly restrict where and when Treason gets invoked in a court of law.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 04:16:37 PM by TheDeamon »

Pete at Home

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2017, 07:09:50 PM »
You miss a few basic points there, Pete.

1.  Every President is ridiculed.  Obama was called the Anti-Christ, a Muslim, part of the Muslim Brotherhood, a homosexual, a terrorist sympathizers, an idiot, and so on.  His wife was called a whore.  This is how politics has been for a long time.  Trump would be called these things regardless of who he is; he's the President.  And no one can control it or stop it.  (At least as long as the First Amendment holds.) :(

2.  If name-calling and baseless insinuations can break him

I didn't say it can.  I didn't say all the insinuations were baseless, either.  What I said is that there are folks on the left who are openly stating their plan to "break" Trump down emotionally.  Whether they are right or wrong about that, they are bloody idiots.  It's a stupid plan.


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So does that mean that if China invades Taiwan upon Trump having a mental breakdown, we can start bringing Left-Wing pundits up on charges of High Treason?

No.  It means that if lefties succeed in melting Trump, and he does something horrible, and they say "I told you so," that I and others will say, "shut up you fluffing idiot. As far as we know, you did this."

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Better to bring up the Republican Party on charges of treason for electing someone who would break down under the normal pressures of the office. ;)

I'm not a republican and I didn't vote for Trump and I think this plan to break him is incredibly stupid both in the short and the long term.

Wayward Son

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Re: Left Wing Caricature
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2017, 12:55:46 PM »
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What I said is that there are folks on the left who are openly stating their plan to "break" Trump down emotionally.  Whether they are right or wrong about that, they are bloody idiots.  It's a stupid plan.

Well, I certainly can't argue with that. :)

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It means that if lefties succeed in melting Trump, and he does something horrible, and they say "I told you so," that I and others will say, "shut up you fluffing idiot. As far as we know, you did this."

And as long as you blame the fluffing idiots on the Left, rather than the entire Left, I'm with you.

Meanwhile, I'll blame the fluffing idiots on the Right who thought he was a good candidate for President and got him elected. :)