Author Topic: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso  (Read 74582 times)

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #150 on: May 17, 2017, 10:00:21 AM »
More to the point, how can it possibly be evaluated as "bad" when the POTUS helps another nation - any nation at all - to prevent terrorist attacks? It's kind of sick in the first place to take any position other than that it's good to help human beings avoid terrorist plots. The fact that it's Russia shouldn't make any difference there, and I really feel like the reason this blew up is because of the Trump/Russia narrative already in the water, and the media thought they could lump this in with that as proof Trump is in league with Putin. That's definitely how the headlines read to me. The issue about whether Trump screwed over Israeli intelligence (doubtful) is not how the story is mostly being reported.

cherrypoptart

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #151 on: May 17, 2017, 11:19:36 AM »
I'm hearing that it was murdered DNC operative Seth Rich who leaked the emails. Of course there is no way at this point to know if that's true or not but that would make for a very interesting twist in the whole Trump-Russia collusion narrative if it was a Democrat who did it all, possibly motivated by the DNC corruption against Sanders.

ScottF

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #152 on: May 17, 2017, 11:22:22 AM »
This scandal is really just part of the "not my president" crowd's new mission (which includes most of the media). They firmly believe that finding something impeachable and removing this clown is simply a matter of time. 99 false positives are fine as long as they can uncover or generate 1 that gets the job done. This will be their focus for the next few years. Does anyone doubt this?

LetterRip

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #153 on: May 17, 2017, 02:27:23 PM »
Everyone knew about the laptop bomb plot the moment that it was announced that we were restricting flights with laptops and it was utterly obvious that ISIS would be the culprit.  If that is the only thing he told them - then it is a non-issue.

Of course I pointed out around the time of 9/11 that laptop bombs were an obvious issue that made our security theater completely pointless - so any half competent security service should have been aware since at least 9/11 that laptop bombs were a possibility.

Fenring,

Quote
More to the point, how can it possibly be evaluated as "bad" when the POTUS helps another nation - any nation at all - to prevent terrorist attacks?

What help do you suppose was provided - everyone already knew about the possibility of laptop bombs and terrorists, and the US recent restriction and location restrictions provided the knowledge of where the threat could originate.  What 'help' do you feel was provided by providing the city where the intel came from?  That is the compromising knowledge that risks the source of the other country being discovered and provides no help in preventing the threat.  It was his bragging and providing source compromising information that is the concern - not warning Russian about the publicly disclosed terrorism threat.  The terrorism threat knowledge was shared with our allies - it is the detailed information such as what specific city that the intel came from that was not to be shared and that risks compromising the source.

Seriati,

Quote
Let's see the proof on Russian collusion, period end of story, now.

There is already publicly disclosed proof - two Trump campaign officials lied to congress about their contact with Russia including the current AG - when lawyers commit a felony there is usually a very good reason.  There are 5 known members of Trump campaign who had contact with Russia.  Trump told Comey to end the Russian investigation, and then Trump fired Comey using an obvious lie as the stated reason (then later coming clean that he planned to fire Comey regardless, and also suggesting that ending the Russian investigation was part of the reason).  There is also Trump publicly inviting Russia to engage in hacking of the DNC and releasing the information.

Of course the FBI has yet to make a full case, but what is known is already quite damning.

Quote
Even the substance here appears to be something that was widely known.

So Trump supporters seem to be not actually reading or listening about what the issue is.  The issue is not 'Trump tells Russia there is an ISIS laptop bomb threat' - that is completely responsible and expected and was already widely known.  The issue is 'Trump tells Russia the city in ISIS controlled territory that the intel about the laptop bomb plot was discovered' - that is what was extremely secret and has put our ally who provided the intel at risk and our access to future intel at risk and it is something that was not to be shared with anyone including our other allies.

Seriati,

here are 17 - most of these are on video.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/jul/06/17-things-donald-trump-said-and-then-denied-saying/

And that is over half a year old.

Here are 250 lifes since taking office.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/05/16/donald-trump-has-said-100s-of-false-things-heres-all-of-them.html

You are free to go through and find 10 of them that have video or audio contradictory evidence.


Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #154 on: May 17, 2017, 02:39:33 PM »
This scandal is really just part of the "not my president" crowd's new mission (which includes most of the media). They firmly believe that finding something impeachable and removing this clown is simply a matter of time. 99 false positives are fine as long as they can uncover or generate 1 that gets the job done. This will be their focus for the next few years. Does anyone doubt this?

Although that is doubtlessly what is going on in Washington right now (after all, that's how it's been for at least the last 8 years ;) ), I'm not so sure that this is "just part" of it.

The World on NPR was talking about classified subjects, and the expert (I don't recall who it was) made an interesting statement.  She said that when something is classified, part of the process is to list, specifically, how national security could be hurt if this information was revealed.  Point by point the person who classifies it has to state how our country's security could be impaired unless the information was kept secret.

So if Trump inadvertently revealed classified information to the wrong parties (such as the Russian press), there is an actual checklist somewhere that lists how Trump could have hurt our national security.

I would be interested in seeing that checklist, so long as it isn't classified, too.

So while legal, this has the potential of being a serious mistake.  Not just "finding something" to impeach him with.

(And, btw, don't forget that he is a clown. :) )

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #155 on: May 17, 2017, 03:56:15 PM »
Quote
There is also Trump publicly inviting Russia to engage in hacking of the DNC and releasing the information

LR, has your account been hacked? You are not the type to say the thing which is not.

At worst reasonable reading, Trump "invite"  Russia, not to hack, but to disclose what it had already hacked.  Unless you are clawing Clinton a perjurer, her stuff was no longer onlune, ergo unhackable.

Seriati

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #156 on: May 17, 2017, 04:56:24 PM »

Quote
Let's see the proof on Russian collusion, period end of story, now.

There is already publicly disclosed proof

OMG.  There literally is not, everything you cite is literally garbage not proof.

Quote
- two Trump campaign officials lied to congress about their contact with Russia including the current AG - when lawyers commit a felony there is usually a very good reason.

In what world was either of Flynn or Sessions a "campaign official"?  Flynn was appointed to head the NSA, had the highest clearance from the Obama admin and was vetted and approved from Congress.  He was fired within 2 weeks of the admin realizing he'd lied about a conversation with Russia, in a conversation that he legally could have had a few weeks later.

The Sesssions lie idea is total bull *censored*.  I've read those transcripts multiple times he was asked about his involvement with Russia on behalf of the administration not in his entire history of public service, and he corrected his statement and even went so far as to unnecessarily recuse himself. 

Neither of this claims relate in any way to any meaningful collusion claim for the administration or the campaign.  They are literally the definition of de minimus and after the fact.

Quote
There are 5 known members of Trump campaign who had contact with Russia.

In what way?  There literally 10's of millions of Americans that have had "contact" with Russia, are they all part of a nefarious plot too?   Good lord, you'd be hard pressed to meet any New Yorker who doesn't know a Russian emigrant.

Quote
Trump told Comey to end the Russian investigation...

Really?  Please provide the quote, cause what was cited in the Comey memo is no where close to what you just claimed.

Quote
...and then Trump fired Comey using an obvious lie as the stated reason (then later coming clean that he planned to fire Comey regardless, and also suggesting that ending the Russian investigation was part of the reason).

Lol.  Firing Comey is the one thing that every liberal demanded over the last few months, what hypocrites.  There is no reasonable way to believe that firing Comey would have any impact on the Russian investigation, and sworn testimony by the acting head of the FBI exists saying it did not have such an impact.

Quote
There is also Trump publicly inviting Russia to engage in hacking of the DNC and releasing the information.

Wow.  Just wow.

I can see that there will be no way to come to grips here.  You don't have evidence, nor will you need it, you have partisan outrage and that is far better than real facts.  Interpretation is better than proof anyway as it can be based on anything and can't be undone in the mind of the believer.

Quote
Of course the FBI has yet to make a full case, but what is known is already quite damning.

Or if you look at it objectively, utterly unconvincing.  If there is proof of collusion, or even reasonable evidence put it on the table.  But what you just cited is less damning than the evidence presented in traffic court in cases that get dismissed.

So far, by the way, what I've review of your lies links isn't much better.  He's definitely been caught out in misstatements, or more usually not remembering what he actually said.  I know plenty of people who are the same way in day to day life and no one goes around calling them proven liars.  lol.  But like I suspected, a huge pile of the apparent "lie" is little more than deliberately unfavorable interpretation. 

Really though you just engaged in an avoidance behavior.  Tell me specifically which things you think are lies he has been caught in.  I'll research them on my own, but I want you to commit to them first.

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #157 on: May 17, 2017, 04:59:29 PM »
The World on NPR was talking about classified subjects, and the expert (I don't recall who it was) made an interesting statement.  She said that when something is classified, part of the process is to list, specifically, how national security could be hurt if this information was revealed.  Point by point the person who classifies it has to state how our country's security could be impaired unless the information was kept secret.

So if Trump inadvertently revealed classified information to the wrong parties (such as the Russian press), there is an actual checklist somewhere that lists how Trump could have hurt our national security.

The National Archives would beg to differ on this.

There are thousands of "Classified documents" stashed away in the National Archives awaiting declassification at this time which were classified only by virtue of the space in which they were in. So there is plenty of "classified material" out there reminding government workers of important appointments for themselves, their children, and/or their significant others, among other things.

LetterRip

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #158 on: May 17, 2017, 05:02:49 PM »
Quote
There is also Trump publicly inviting Russia to engage in hacking of the DNC and releasing the information

LR, has your account been hacked? You are not the type to say the thing which is not.

At worst reasonable reading, Trump "invite"  Russia, not to hack, but to disclose what it had already hacked.  Unless you are clawing Clinton a perjurer, her stuff was no longer onlune, ergo unhackable.

He said he 'Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing'.  So I agree my characterization of 'hack the DNC' is inaccurate.

Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #159 on: May 17, 2017, 05:12:28 PM »
The Times report said that Trump revealed the city in Syria where the information was obtained. This would presumably allow Russia to identify the local network within which the intelligence asset is embedded. The fact that our incompetent braggart of a president is compromising our allies' intelligence assets in Syria to Russia IS actually objectionable, regardless of whether or not it is technically within the presidential prerogative. Regardless of our puppet president's claims, the reality remains that Putin hasn't been on exactly the same page as the US and her allies in regards to Syria...

On a more personal note, y'all traitors who keep crying "Fake News!" and denying that Putin is puppet-playing our a$$es, are doing nothing more than showcasing the obvious biases y'all already put on record back when you were passing around Russian propaganda last fall. Y'all heard the a$$ clown ask Russia to hack his political opposition ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, and y'all cheered when it actually happened--then you voted your treasonously partisan consciences to put a traitorous liar into office.

Quote
Let's see the proof on Russian collusion, period end of story, now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNa2B5zHfbQ

So tired of watching you traitors pretend to be patriotic. Y'all aren't patriots--you're partisans. You're so hypocritically biased that you can't tell the difference.

godsblackestcrow: Please see your email. -OrneryMod
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 05:47:56 PM by OrneryMod »

Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #160 on: May 17, 2017, 06:14:04 PM »
Hmm.

I thought I was relatively restrained there...I wrote it last night, then slept on it before posting...I even erased the paragraph that had all the "*censored* yous" in it...

Tell me, Mod: what word would you recommend instead of "traitor," if the intent is to point out that a pattern of partisan actions has attained the level of literal treason, but the word needs to pass some arbitrary standard of politically correct insultlessness?

NobleHunter

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #161 on: May 17, 2017, 06:37:10 PM »
Lol.  Firing Comey is the one thing that every liberal demanded over the last few months, what hypocrites.  There is no reasonable way to believe that firing Comey would have any impact on the Russian investigation, and sworn testimony by the acting head of the FBI exists saying it did not have such an impact.
Criticizing Comey isn't the same as demanding he'd be fired. ETA: You can make a start on supporting the "every liberal" claim by quoting where Obama demanded Comey be fired.

And you really don't think the new director isn't going to be affected by the possibility that supporting the Russia investigation will get him fired? Even if Comey's firing didn't have an impact, that doesn't mean his predecessor won't have one. If nothing else, the credibility of the investigation just got blown all to hell if it returns a null verdict.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 06:42:01 PM by NobleHunter »

Seriati

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #162 on: May 17, 2017, 08:49:08 PM »
Well now that a Special Counsel has been appointed I guess we'll see.  Can't decide yet if this will turn out to be a good thing for Trump or not.  If there isn't any collusion it seems like this will get put to bed, on the other hand no prosecutor ever likes to not bring any charges.  Be really interesting to see if we get surprise charges against leakers out of it.

NobleHunter, I honestly don't think there's any risk at all that the next FBI director would have been intimidated by what happened to Comey.  I really don't think rational insiders look at the situation and think Comey was fired because of a Russian investigation that firing him did nothing to stop.  What would have happened was it would have created a black cloud over any finding by the investigation that nothing untoward happened, which is still - by far - the most likely result of this.

DonaldD

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #163 on: May 17, 2017, 11:02:50 PM »
A rational insider would understand that Comey got fired because he would not kiss the ring.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #164 on: May 17, 2017, 11:25:34 PM »
Hmm.

I thought I was relatively restrained there...I wrote it last night, then slept on it before posting...I even erased the paragraph that had all the "*censored* yous" in it...

Tell me, Mod: what word would you recommend instead of "traitor," if the intent is to point out that a pattern of partisan actions has attained the level of literal treason, but the word needs to pass some arbitrary standard of politically correct insultlessness?

I'm just reading this for the first time, so I'm not the one that reported you for this ... in my book, a woeful ignorance of legal definitions is not a suspension level offense.  The cure to ignorance is knowledge.

Treason is defined in the constitution.  I strongly suggest that you look it up, before you use the term again.

The answer to your question is "espionage."  The putative crime which Trump may or may not have committed (based on Congress' interpretation in a putative impeachment trial) is espionage.  Not treason.  At worst possible interpretation he's done what Chelsea Manning did.

==============
Quote
Lol.  Firing Comey is the one thing that every liberal demanded over the last few months, what hypocrites.

Not true.  I defended Comey when he said that the investigation was over; I defended him when he announced it had re-opened, and I defend him now.  He was placed in an impossible situation where ethics contradicted law, and made what I see as the most honorable choice under the circumstances.  You may not agree with his decision, but if you do not concede that he put his conscience ahead of his career, then you have some explaining to do to retain my respect.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #165 on: May 17, 2017, 11:54:28 PM »
Y'all heard the a$$ clown ask Russia to hack his political opposition ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, and y'all cheered when it actually happened

Or maybe he was satirically alluding to the fact that apparently the only way to get the truth out of the DNC is to have a third party hack them and reveal what they won't admit themselves. In the case of Hillary in particular there is no defensible way to claim that she was forthcoming with making her official files transparent, or even disclosing close to what was asked of her (it is factually incontrovertible that she claimed she turned over everything when she had not, and made efforts to scrub much of it). Therefore Trump's comment about Russia finding her missing files again alludes to the fact that the only apparent way to get transparency is to have files leaked by sources such as Wikileaks or Guccifer (which was blamed on Russia). At the time, and still to this time, I read Trump's comment as being a sardonic joke about the fact that even hackers are more honest than Hillary. The joke was about Hillary's unwillingness to turn over her material, not about actually requesting Russian espionage to dial it up a notch. But of course par for the course as this point is for any comment to be taken out of context, and for any flavor intention to be removed when being misinterpreted so that a sarcastic comment will be read seriously, or vice versa. To be fair this is partly Trump's fault because while he's capable enough of coloring his live comments with 'tude it often won't translate very well in written form such as on Twitter. As we just saw from the quote about cancelling white house press briefings, it's not always easy to parse whether Trump is being serious or not, and that's on him. It certainly makes it easier for people to misinterpret what he means, just as I believe you did with the comment you are referring to.

Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #166 on: May 18, 2017, 01:21:17 AM »
Fenring:

So...Trump is too much of a liar to take what he says at face value? Awesome defense of your persistent defense of the man...

I thought you were the type who liked to pretend that truth matters, and that there is supposed to be some kind of dignity to the office of the POTUS, Fen...what's up with this constant stream of defense for this untruthful, undignified, un-American clown which I keep seeing flowing from your pen?

Keep telling yourself you're just siding with the legitimate winner of the democratic process because the hate is coming from biased leftist liberal losers, if you like, but you might be careful how you bend your brand around kissing the ass of the powers the be, brother--for all the disclaimers of distaste and independence that preface the side-taking tune you keep singing, surely you'll understand that people will end up seeing which part you always seem to end up taking, in the end...

Pete:

What's your point? That we're not technically at war with Putin and his peeps, so I haven't given a proper reason for calling Trump's treachery treason?

Putin's an enemy of the US, in my book, Pete, regardless of how modern, post-cold war conventions may have muddled our postmodern definitions of war. And the video I posted was of Trump promising our "adversaries" that they would be rewarded if they attacked our country.

That constitutes treason, yo.

The *censored* I care if all this partisan bull*censored* has the whole herd of sheep too confused to admit that the basic facts read so?

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #167 on: May 18, 2017, 02:04:16 AM »
So...Trump is too much of a liar to take what he says at face value? Awesome defense of your persistent defense of the man...

No, it means that it's all too easy to bend a quote to mean whatever one wants to.

Quote
I thought you were the type who liked to pretend that truth matters, and that there is supposed to be some kind of dignity to the office of the POTUS

There's a difference between acknowledging that the current President doesn't live up to the dignity of his office, and between saying he should be impeached on principle. It does an even greater injustice to the office to refuse to allow the President to do his job because you don't like him. There's a difference between not liking someone (even if justified) and firing them. It's not like the people howling about Trump are actively preventing some kind of real disaster, as in, their complaints will cause Trump to consider his actions more carefully. All it does is create a maelstrom of noise that he has to deal with while trying to do the job at the same time. Overall I see it as weakening the country in the strange hope that a precedent is set wherein a President can be removed from office due to complaints, like what happened to Brendan Eich. Whoever sees that kind of scenario as a win is only shooting themselves in the foot down the road.

Quote
Keep telling yourself you're just siding with the legitimate winner of the democratic process because the hate is coming from biased leftist liberal losers, if you like, but you might be careful how you bend your brand around kissing the ass of the powers the be, brother--for all the disclaimers of distaste and independence that preface the side-taking tune you keep singing, surely you'll understand that people will end up seeing which part you always seem to end up taking, in the end...

Why don't you tell me which part I always seem to end up taking? Please include in your analysis any threads about Bernie's campaign, and going back a bit further, about the Bush admin.

Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #168 on: May 18, 2017, 04:36:54 AM »
Quote
No, it means that it's all too easy to bend a quote to mean whatever one wants to.
:lol:

Sooth. The craft in any spell is in the reading...

But your failure to read this liar right seems to be based in denying the power of subtext--as if the conspiring context around quoted text can't simply be taken as a given.

This traitor whose part I keep reading you as taking not only called upon our adversaries to attack our nation through the commission of espionage against his political opponents, but after our adversaries committed the espionage he publicly requested, the traitor and his partisan followers were among the principal disseminators of the stolen information (you know, those "Wikileaks" that you seem to be reluctant to admit were really always Russian propaganda which our intelligence services have told us were illegally obtained through foreign espionage in a directed attack against our country).

The way you seem to want to read things allows the liar to box up and keep the cake he's already ordered and eaten.
Quote
There's a difference between acknowledging that the current President doesn't live up to the dignity of his office, and between saying he should be impeached on principle.
Who the *censored* is claiming that principle has *censored*-all to do with any of this!? I'm of the mind that y'all mob-minded dumbocracy-sheep just definitively proved that your principles have not a *censored* thing to do with your politics (which is actually what I've been saying all along)!

Please remember that y'all partisans just surpassed the point in American history where your political hatred for your fellow Americans grew large enough for half of the *censored*ing country to treasonously help the Russians disseminate propaganda in a blatant attack on our political process.

What I'm saying--if you were asking--is that we should try and execute the orange traitor for inciting this act of mass treason. (I'd be amenable to locking up Hillary too, incidentally, if it would help nail the coffin on this bipartisan political system which is sabotaging our country...)
Quote
Why don't you tell me which part I always seem to end up taking?
I'm talking about the way I keep seeing you take the traitor's side, every time I drop by to see what my Ornery American friends are saying about the treasonous clown who the think-they're-right partisans have put into office.

And while it may read like I'm telling, in my spelling, I'm actually asking, Fenring: why are you selling your credibility out by constantly defending this obvious traitor and fraud?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 04:43:48 AM by godsblackestcrow »

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #169 on: May 18, 2017, 08:19:45 AM »
Ah, well. Good to see that some people are adhering to the time honored traditions of guilty until proven innocent, and trial by angry mob.

That always helps society get to great things.

Mynnion

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #170 on: May 18, 2017, 09:16:16 AM »
A couple of quick thoughts.

Is Trump innocent of all of the allegations being thrown around surrounding Russia?  I believe there is enough smoke to warrant a thorough investigation.  If we want to insure the the integrity of our Democratic system we need our leaders to hold more loyalty to the country than they do to the party.  That means that "We the People" need to lead by example and call for greater integrity in our leaders.  The question becomes how broad a scope the investigation entails.  Should the scope be limited to collusion or broad enough to look at any Russian manipulation?  I am personally sick of investigations designed to specifically target a political opponent.  That undermines are system of justice.

There is plenty of room to criticize both parties and instead of blindly reacting to protect those we see as ideologically similar we need to start listening to opposing views respectfully.  Some of what both sides is garbage but much is real and shouldn't be ignored.

If Comey was removed for the stated reasons.  Great.  If he was however removed for not "kissing the ring" than that can have a negative impact on anyone Trump chooses to replace him.

One thing I know for sure is that I am glad it is not my job to defend the constant chaos that seems to surround Trump.

Seriati

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #171 on: May 18, 2017, 09:42:39 AM »
Ahh... so it's foulest treachery when the Russian's hack the DNC or Hillary and reveal that they have been lying to the American population and directly manipulating the Presidential election, without Russia violating any duty owed to them, but it's all for a noble cause when intelligence officials commit a crime to reveal legal conversations of a President, the revelation of which harms the national interests for purely partisan reasons.

Maybe check your outrage when you go around labeling your political opponents traitors and ignoring actual treachery that serves your cause.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #172 on: May 18, 2017, 10:24:39 AM »
And while it may read like I'm telling, in my spelling, I'm actually asking, Fenring: why are you selling your credibility out by constantly defending this obvious traitor and fraud?

I think you'll find maybe one poster on this site tops who actually endorses Trump in some capacity. For the rest you seem to be losing perspective of context and assuming that being critical of bad methods is the same as being on the side of the person towards whom they're directed. That's a really bad assumption. In fact, it's the kind of partisan assumption that leads to sacrificing the system just to ensure there's no possible chance that the other side gains any benefit whatsoever. This is not merely counter-productive, but also goes against the spirit of good governance, which is that improvements should be made to benefit all, not just those in one's own party. It would benefit all for the media landscape to change, and I will happily post criticism of their bad methods regardless of which side is the current recipient of their nonsense. Since Trump is the sort to constantly occupy media attention it should come as no surprise that he will happen to be the one on the receiving end much of the time.

Before jumping into a diatribe against Ornery members you might stop to first ask them what point they're actually trying to make rather than assuming they've taken a side.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #173 on: May 18, 2017, 11:18:34 AM »
Quote
Pete:

What's your point? That we're not technically at war with Putin and his peeps, so I haven't given a proper reason for calling Trump's treachery treason?
 

"technically"?  We're not at war.  Period.
Quote
Putin's an enemy of the US, in my book, Pete, regardless of how modern, post-cold war conventions may have muddled our postmodern definitions of war.

The US constitution is inot a "modern, post-cold war convention." Give it a read some time.  And you are not the one who designates the US' enemy -- that job goes to Congress.

Putin's a horrible person, but so was Stalin, and Stalin was our ally against Hitler.  And when someone leaked information about our nukes to Stalin, that was espionage, not treason.  You going to pretend that Putin is a worse guy than Stalin?

Given that espionage and treason both scale up to the death penalty, I don't know why you're bitching and balking over the word "espionage."  You asked for the right word, and I gave it to you.
Quote
And the video I posted was of Trump promising our "adversaries" that they would be rewarded if they attacked our country.

Huh?  Where? <goes fishing>
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 11:20:51 AM by Pete at Home »

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #174 on: May 18, 2017, 11:27:49 AM »
Quote
And the video I posted was of Trump promising our "adversaries" that they would be rewarded if they attacked our country.
:o

Checks link, and sorely disappointed.  "Attacked our country" -- you mean providing America with the stuff that American courts had demanded by subpoena?  And "rewarded by our press" ...

I've never seen you so sold out to a political party that you would bend the facts and words that way.  For all your flaws you were an independent thinker.

If I were to publicly ask Russia to publish Trump's tax statements if they have them, or to tell us who killed JFK, would you call me a traitor for that?

Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #175 on: May 19, 2017, 02:49:34 AM »
Quote
The US constitution is inot a "modern, post-cold war convention."
Of course it isn't--you need to re-read what I said. The US constitution is a pre-modern, relatively obsolete document which was written without any understanding of what modern statecraft conventions would be 2+ centuries after it was drafted. The fact that it limits the power to declare war to Congress, for example, hasn't stopped the modern America of our lifetimes from ignoring the irrelevant, obsolete stipulation of the constitution, and adapting to modern conventions by engaging in war after war with nary a declaration of war from the body which ostensibly has the sole power to initiate war.

Your argument seems to pretend that adhering to, aiding and colluding with Saddam Hussein during the Gulf War wouldn't have been treason because Congress never officially declared war against Iraq.
Quote
"Attacked our country" -- you mean providing America with the stuff that American courts had demanded by subpoena?
No...I mean what I said: that an American calling for a foreign adversary to commit espionage against fellow Americans constitutes treason.

When did you sell out your ethics so hard that you decided that treasonous, illegal means are justified by the possibility of attaining politically preferred ends?
Quote
I've never seen you so sold out to a political party
No, you haven't. And that's not what you're seeing here, either.

I'm not shilling for loser liberals here--I'm railing against traitors and partisan tyranny.
 
The actual sell-outs here are the folks who completely abandoned their ethics and patriotism the second they found an end that they wanted badly enough to justify traitorous, criminal means.

On an emotional level, I sympathize with y’all (and I don't mean "thou" when I refer to "ye," excepting insofar as thou wouldst self-identify as part of my object's plurality). It’s my opinion that Clinton is a liar whose arrogant disregard for vitally important national security procedures endangered us all. I wanted to see the evidence she burned.

But on an intellectual integrity level, I've never been so disgusted with my fellow Americans. If there be such a thing as Justice, it most hold that just ends do not justify unjust means.

Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #176 on: May 19, 2017, 03:05:32 AM »
Quote
Before jumping into a diatribe against Ornery members you might stop to first ask them what point they're actually trying to make rather than assuming they've taken a side.
Lol!

Don’t get too bent, Fenring--diatribe is simply the font I use whenever I’m wielding a pen.

All I’m really saying in your direction is that it disappoints me to see you painting yourself Orange so often these days.

Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #177 on: May 19, 2017, 03:16:34 AM »
Quote
Ahh... so it's foulest treachery when the Russian's hack the DNC or Hillary and reveal that they have been lying to the American population and directly manipulating the Presidential election
Nah...the foulest treachery is committed by biased partisans who pretend to have principles while they bend their ethics one way to catch crooks who aren’t on their team, and then bend their ethics the other way defending crooks who are on their side.

You know--it's those hypocrites who want to bend the law to hold an opponent politician to the fire when the crooked liar has negligently disregarded national security protocols, but then turn around and defend another crooked liar who has similarly negligently disregarded national security protocols, simply because he’s on their political team…

Those are the foully treacherous folk, to my mind. It’s the pretense to principles that gets my goat, if you know what I mean--they truly seem to believe themselves to be people of principle, even as they demonstrate themselves to be biased hypocrites, over and over again.

What's sad is that some of these hypocrites are some of the smartest people I meet. They're just blind to their biases, and oblivious to the way they use their intelligence with rankly partisan hypocrisy...

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #178 on: May 19, 2017, 03:20:28 AM »
All I’m really saying in your direction is that it disappoints me to see you painting yourself Orange so often these days.

You should then be most displeased at the media centers I criticize. It's my duty to speak out against disinformation and propaganda, and when it happens to be leveled mostly against a schlub like Trump it's doubly vexing because I end up having to take sides against those attacking Trump (which as I mentioned is not the same as taking sides *with* Trump).

Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #179 on: May 19, 2017, 04:38:06 AM »
Quote
You should then be most displeased at the media centers I criticize.
;D

Whoever said I wasn't? If you haven't noticed, my displeasure is great enough to go around.

To be honest with you, though, I'm less displeased with the mainstream media these days than I am with social media.

In the last decade, the masses have acquired powers of publication which vastly exceed the powers possessed by the mainstream corporate publishers of yesteryear. But we are not using these powers to expand knowledge and truth--we are using them as an unruly mob is wont to do: spreading lies, and gossip and innuendo--disseminating untruth.

It's not the journalists in the mainstream media who are really lying to the average Joe. It's us--the mob of know-nothing liars on his Facebook page whom Joe trusts, in spite of the fact that we refuse to check our sources as a rule, and we generally don't even know what journalistic ethics are--much less hold ourselves accountable to any such protocols whenever we spew the ignorant nonsense we do.

What I think happened is that, when we developed technology which eliminated the cost of publication, we also eliminated the processes and systematic practices which functioned to curate the expensive published content.

You can blame the mainstream institutions if you like--I won't welcome you to Ornery over it: the idea isn't wrong. They've always had an angle, and they're still mostly just snowing us to sell us *censored*. But if you're asking me for my opinion, we are the real problem. We just don't care enough about truth not to spread our own stupidity.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 04:52:55 AM by godsblackestcrow »

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #180 on: May 19, 2017, 08:37:04 AM »
Quote
The US constitution is inot a "modern, post-cold war convention."
Of course it isn't--you need to re-read what I said. The US constitution is a pre-modern, relatively obsolete document which was written without any understanding of what modern statecraft conventions would be 2+ centuries after it was drafted. The fact that it limits the power to declare war to Congress, for example, hasn't stopped the modern America of our lifetimes from ignoring the irrelevant, obsolete stipulation of the constitution, and adapting to modern conventions by engaging in war after war with nary a declaration of war from the body which ostensibly has the sole power to initiate war.


If the Constitution is "irrelevant," then how come Trump's been stymied so far on the immigration front?

"Modern Statecraft" is more affected by the writing of the constitution and the memes introduced therein as the contemporary English Language is influenced by Shakespeare.  While it's arguably "pre-modern" it shaped much of what we call "modern" ergo remains relevant.

Congress has delegated its right to declare war.  It could easily strip those rights from the President.
Quote
Your argument seems to pretend that adhering to, aiding and colluding with Saddam Hussein during the Gulf War wouldn't have been treason because Congress never officially declared war against Iraq.

Reread the War Clause, which allows for numerous types of undeclared war.  Some of the War Clause measures (e.g. Trading with the Enemy Act which are based on the Captures clauses) were in effect against Saddam Hussein.

By your standards, we should try Obama for treason for dealing with Iran and with Cuba.  Your standard would also make FDR a "traitor" for aiding the soviet Union during WWII. And Truman a "traitor" for accepting a conditional surrender from Japan after the US had made perfectly clear that only an unconditional surrender would do.

Quote
No...I mean what I said: that an American calling for a foreign adversary to commit espionage against fellow Americans constitutes treason.

Reread what I said.  and what he said.  He called on Russia to disclose some of what it might have already have obtained through Espionage.  Calling for disclosure of espionage =/= calling for more espionage.  You're entirely without a leg to stand on here.
Quote
On an emotional level, I sympathize with y’all (and I don't mean "thou" when I refer to "ye," excepting insofar as thou wouldst self-identify as part of my object's plurality). It’s my opinion that Clinton is a liar whose arrogant disregard for vitally important national security procedures endangered us all. I wanted to see the evidence she burned.

But on an intellectual integrity level, I've never been so disgusted with my fellow Americans. If there be such a thing as Justice, it most hold that just ends do not justify unjust means.

Again, you err when you say that asking for *disclosure* of what might have been obtained via espionage, could be construed as treason.  That much isn't even espionage.  Disclosure of the unjust is just.  Truth is the whole foundation of justice; true justice cannot be founded on a lie.  And in Rwanda and South Africa, Disclosure of Truth by villains has sufficed for justice in its entirety, with peace as a result.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #181 on: May 19, 2017, 09:08:12 AM »
Quote
You should then be most displeased at the media centers I criticize.
;D

Whoever said I wasn't? If you haven't noticed, my displeasure is great enough to go around.

To be honest with you, though, I'm less displeased with the mainstream media these days than I am with social media.

In the last decade, the masses have acquired powers of publication which vastly exceed the powers possessed by the mainstream corporate publishers of yesteryear. But we are not using these powers to expand knowledge and truth--we are using them as an unruly mob is wont to do: spreading lies, and gossip and innuendo--disseminating untruth.

Amen.  Welcome to the disinformation age.

Quote

It's not the journalists in the mainstream media who are really lying to the average Joe.

I disagree.  Every "interview" that was scripted with Clinton, involved journalist collusion in a lie.  Every misleading assertion that Putin "rigged" or "hacked" the election, intentionally duped readers into believing that the vote itself had been manipulated.  Far more damaging than quibbling over how many folks showed up for Inauguration day.  (Big flogging deal, that)

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #182 on: May 19, 2017, 09:10:00 AM »
Quote
Nah...the foulest treachery is committed by biased partisans who pretend to have principles while they bend their ethics one way to catch crooks who aren’t on their team, and then bend their ethics the other way defending crooks who are on their side.

When has it been otherwise?  This is precisely the state of affairs anticipated by the Constitution, hence all the anti-Democratic checks and balances.
Quote
When did you sell out your ethics so hard that you decided that treasonous, illegal means are justified by the possibility of attaining politically preferred ends?
Since I've never used the word "treason" as broadly you have, since reading the constitution, I cannot be said to have sold out my ethics in this matter.  I disagree with your ethics.  That's all.  And I think that if you think the matter through to its logical conclusion, that you will disagree with your ethics as well.

As for my "politically preferred ends", I did not vote for Trump.  And even pretending that I was now a Trump supporter, what "politically preferred end" am I serving by saying that the proper crime to charge is espionage, not treason?  If I wanted Trump[ to succeed, then I'd quietly laugh up my sleeve as his enemies raised charges that could not possibly stick.  Overcharging is the reason that death-dealing thug Damien "Football" Williams walked free after the whole nation had seen him shoot and bludgeon Reginald Denny on national TV.

Truth and accuracy aren't politically preferred ends.  They are ethical principles, and I think you will agree with me when your blood cools.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 09:18:53 AM by Pete at Home »

Seriati

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #183 on: May 19, 2017, 09:32:58 AM »
Quote
Ahh... so it's foulest treachery when the Russian's hack the DNC or Hillary and reveal that they have been lying to the American population and directly manipulating the Presidential election
Nah...the foulest treachery is committed by biased partisans who pretend to have principles while they bend their ethics one way to catch crooks who aren’t on their team, and then bend their ethics the other way defending crooks who are on their side.

Then you are arguing against a strawman.  Evidence of a crime should be pursued no matter who its against.

Holding however, the Trump admin responsible to a political standard, while exculpating the Clinton campaign on a legal standard is rank hypocrisy.  Colluding with CNN to influence an election is FAR more likely to have an impact than colluding with the Russians would.  Whether Russian hackers, US hackers or some poor kid working for the DNC who mysteriously ended up murdered in a robbery where nothing was stolen, revealed a secret shouldn't make a bit of difference to your level of outrage, yet it only matters to the Dems if the Russians did it.

Trying to make a laughable comment asking the Russian's to find Hillary's 30k missing emails, into a bigger issue than the fact that there were 30k missing emails is just pure partisan media manipulation.

Quote
You know--it's those hypocrites who want to bend the law to hold an opponent politician to the fire when the crooked liar has negligently disregarded national security protocols, but then turn around and defend another crooked liar who has similarly negligently disregarded national security protocols, simply because he’s on their political team…

Or maybe the hypocrite is the one who writes a sentence directly equate an actual violation of the language of a statute with something that isn't against the law.

I started this with a specific demand.  Show the actual evidence of collusion.  Any competent prosecutor - that isn't a partisan - would have found enough in Clinton's fact pattern to indict anyone not named Clinton.  If something even remotely plausible comes out about Trump, there is no doubt they will act on it.

Quote
Those are the foully treacherous folk, to my mind. It’s the pretense to principles that gets my goat, if you know what I mean--they truly seem to believe themselves to be people of principle, even as they demonstrate themselves to be biased hypocrites, over and over again.

How you like living in a glass house?

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #184 on: May 19, 2017, 10:33:57 AM »
Quote
asking the Russian's to find Hillary's 30k missing emails,

Let us be clear -- he wasn't asking them to go obtain them, but rather to disclose *if* they had obtained them.

TheDeamon

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #185 on: May 19, 2017, 01:22:19 PM »
I started this with a specific demand.  Show the actual evidence of collusion.  Any competent prosecutor - that isn't a partisan - would have found enough in Clinton's fact pattern to indict anyone not named Clinton.  If something even remotely plausible comes out about Trump, there is no doubt they will act on it.

Agreed, but I've been saying as much since before Trump was elected. The Media is holding true to predictions, with the scant evidence they DO have, they're already screaming about why there isn't an impeachment process already underway. If they actually had something that wasn't simply rumor and innuendo the Republican Leadership in congress would help push Trump in front of bus, that they'll also gleefully help schedule, to get him out the way so he isn't "an ongoing embarrassment"  for their idea of the GOP.

They're not going to circle the wagons around him like happened for the Clintons, recently or back in the 90's.

But this goes back to the Trump Admin being comedy gold, Donald Trump is perhaps "the most impeachable President" we've ever had, even without any criminal wrong-doing on his part, certainly so in recent history. The problem they have is they first have to catch him "doing something." That he's not getting caught is turning into a strong indicator he's probably not doing much in the "criminal deeds" department. (Unethical is another matter, but ethical and legal are not one and the same)

Gaoics79

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #186 on: May 19, 2017, 01:26:33 PM »
The missing email comment was easily Trump's finest moment in the election, the only time I actually laughed out loud. I think it's pretty clear what Trump meant by that comment and I fully support him in that. I find the suggestion that he was promoting espionage hilarious - nearly as hilarious as the original comment.

It just goes to show that even a sleazy reality star gets it right occasionally. They say that the "deplorables" comment lost the election for Hillary but I'd say the missing email comment might have won it for Trump.

Pete at Home

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #187 on: May 19, 2017, 03:17:00 PM »
Crow is no partisan hack but like me sometimes gets an odd bee in his britches. I honest don't understand his PoV on that harmless remark.

Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #188 on: May 23, 2017, 07:25:23 AM »
Quote
Truth and accuracy aren't politically preferred ends.  They are ethical principles, and I think you will agree with me when your blood cools.
Caw caw caw.

Haven’t you heard? My beak is steeped in blood that burns with that fire which never cools.
Quote
By your standards, we should try Obama for treason for dealing with Iran and with Cuba.
...Hmm...I guess so...maybe if we really squint? Here: let me help you fit your analogy to my standardized script:

If--nine years ago--Obama had publicly asked Cuba to commit espionage against McCain while on the campaign trail, and then Wikileaks released a load of stolen internal communications from the Republican campaign, and Obama stumped on reopening a closed federal investigation into McCain’s mishandling of classified information, and then the FBI director announced that he needed to reopen the McCain investigation to sort through all of McCain’s aide’s husband’s dick pics to see if McCain had exposed anything highly private to Cuban spies, and then our National Security apparatus publicly announced that Cuba had been behind the leak in an act of espionage specifically targeting Republicans in order to influence our election...then I might have been laughing my ass off at this failing American democracy experiment of y’all’s, but I do think I’d also have been pointing out that Obama’s “joke” asking Cuban spies to help him win the election was a gag that, in context, quacked like treason...

Wouldn’t you?

If it also happened that, a year prior to the 2008 election, “Cuba” had invaded the southern half of “Nicaragua” to build a waterway to move billions of dollars worth of “cigars” into the Pacific, and Obama had campaigned on reneging on defense commitments to a “North America Central America Treaty Organization” which (in hypothetical history) had been vital to American security interests for all of living memory, and then it came out that Obama’s campaign manager also had been on the payroll as a lobbyist for the pro-”Cuban” occupation faction in “Nicaragua,” and less than a month after Obama took office, his National Security Advisor got fired for lying about having talked to the “Cuban” Ambassador, about relaxing sanctions imposed by Bush in response to the “Cuban” occupation of “Nicaragua,” and it came out that Obama’s business partners had been drafting “peace” plans permitting Cuba to keep the southern half of Nicaragua for the next century, while other members of Obama’s circle were brokering eleven figure deals for stakes of Cuban cigar companies, and Obama was all the while waging war against America’s fourth Estate for constantly pointing out what a liar he kept proving himself to be...well,yeah--I really do think I’d have been mocking liberal sheep who presumably would have been screaming that all the reports were “Fake News” in the shrillest leftspeak screech which is audible to the human ear…

What about you?
 
Quote
Since I've never used the word "treason" as broadly you have, since reading the constitution, I cannot be said to have sold out my ethics in this matter.  I disagree with your ethics.
Lookit: I’m no lawyer, but every ornery American knows that the American “Justice” system is never going to convict a big league politician of high crimes. There wasn’t any way the Blue team was gonna let the Red team burn the Witch, and there’s no way Putin’s faux-gold Puppet is coming out of the deal he made with the Russian devil without yet another deal for a pardon and a full emolument on the back end from Uncle Sam. The history of American Justice will read just as it always reads...

So if y’all purpose to prosecute the point to the point that I have to lawyer up, I’ll concede I’d have to plead “no contest” to a count of the crime of hyperbole for suggesting we should string the turncoat turkey up--I’m not seriously calling to for the crowd to lynch the man, just to feed the crows (I don’t even recognize trial process of the court to be valid, to be honest--which I kinda figured some of y’all might get). But I’m calling this anti-American partisanship Treason, and I’m just fine with my reasons: my kind may come to crow in murders, but y’all’s a raven mob.

And...for real, Pete? Never mind for a minute the way you think I’m mis-crossing my T’s against Traitors, Treason and Treachery--you’re really telling me that, ethically, you see nothing wrong with each candidate calling for Russian spies to commit crimes to help him/her win the presidency, going forward, as long as he/she claims it’s a joke, and has enough partisan support?

Why don’t we just cut out the middleman, and put Putin in office?
Quote
Disclosure of the unjust is just.
Just never mind any unjust means, huh? Tell me: if an end is an end is an end, and justice is just how it just now is, then how does it happen that, no matter how you look at it, the unjust villain just ain’t ending up locked up?

Smh. Card ought to change the name of this place to the “Orangey American.” Never mind the way that red folk turned yellow, even the putatively purple people have been tainted by this agent Orange.

;)

Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #189 on: May 23, 2017, 07:34:42 AM »
Quote
How you like living in a glass house?
:lol:

Life is but a stage, on mine stands no cage: my play gambols over shambles of shards. It’s sharp sometimes, but my claws are hard...
Quote
Holding however, the Trump admin responsible to a political standard, while exculpating the Clinton campaign on a legal standard is rank hypocrisy.  Colluding with CNN to influence an election is FAR more likely to have an impact than colluding with the Russians would.  Whether Russian hackers, US hackers or some poor kid working for the DNC who mysteriously ended up murdered in a robbery where nothing was stolen, revealed a secret shouldn't make a bit of difference to your level of outrage, yet it only matters to the Dems if the Russians did it.
I’m sorry--you were pointing out my partisan hypocrisy, and you lost me in your haste to get to your party: remind me where I exculpated Clinton of anything?

What should one do when a red pot retorts to a raven-colored kettle that red is rubber, and black is actually blue?

Seriesly, who the *censored* do you think you’re talking to?

I’m not actually one of them Dems, but even I think it’s funny to see you pretend that they weren’t outraged by the scenes where the Clinton machine colluded with the media mainstream. Anyone not stuck seeing straight red could tell you that the leftmost half of the Democrats haven’t stopped complaining about exactly that since the 2008 primaries! Don’t you suspect that at least some “level of outrage” over CNN feeding Clinton questions (at a Democrat primary townhall) came from folks wearing blue in the Bernie camp?

Do you ever publish points that aren’t first filtered through a biased-partisan-hypocrite-talking-point-generation machine?

By the way, you forgot to mention the pizza shop basement pedophilia ring--I’m pretty sure that’s tied together with the DNC intern murder thing, even if the connection is shrouded in mystery--undoubtedly because isn’t getting the coverage it deserves from the mainstream media. Let us know when you and your completely credible buddies Alex Jones and Kim Dotcom crack the Clinton-has-been-secretly-assassinating-her-way-to-the-top case, K?
Quote
I started this with a specific demand.  Show the actual evidence of collusion.
I already did. You can claim the liar was just joking when he publicly asked Russian spies to help him win, but you might keep in mind the fact that federal judges have already ruled that the things Trump said on the campaign trail can and will be used against him in a court of law.

History is going to be laughing at that joke for a while...

Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #190 on: May 23, 2017, 07:42:47 AM »
Quote
The missing email comment was easily Trump's finest moment in the election,
Welcome to Ornery, you’re wrong. His finest (and funniest) line was easily the “pardon me” punchline at the Al Smith dinner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXDoP-gH4aE
Quote
I think it's pretty clear what Trump meant by that comment and I fully support him in that. I find the suggestion that he was promoting espionage hilarious - nearly as hilarious as the original comment
The thing about irony is that it reflects the way reality belies the way you think you see a thing.

The fact that a joke is a joke, doesn’t prove that the subtext isn't true...
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 07:56:57 AM by godsblackestcrow »

Seriati

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #191 on: May 23, 2017, 10:01:57 AM »
Crow is no partisan hack but like me sometimes gets an odd bee in his britches. I honest don't understand his PoV on that harmless remark.

I can only base my opinions on the words he chooses to share, which I generally find excessively patronizing.  Maybe you can point out where I missed something he wrote that isn't excessively political and excessively one sided.

Crunch

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #192 on: May 23, 2017, 10:08:30 AM »
The thing about irony is that it reflects the way reality belies the way you think you see a thing.

The fact that a joke is a joke, doesn’t prove that the subtext isn't true...
Along those lines, this happened...
Quote
Reporters on Monday fell for a fake "White House" document that supposedly showed President Donald Trump making unusual demands of his Israeli hosts during his trip abroad.

This was shared and propagated by reporters at the Jerusalem Post, Business Insider, the Nation, NBC News, the Washington Post, and Mother Jones and retweeted quite a few times (over 2000).  Among the demands: 8 Hungry Man Fried Chicken Dinners (frozen), 2 cartons KFC paper napkins (must be KFC), 6 boxes double stuffed Oreos (unwrapped, stacked in rows of 8 ), 9 lbs bacon (uncooked). The list was fairly extensive and absurd.

How anyone bought into such an obvious joke (and a pretty funny one at that) is surprising.  That reporters covering Trump not only bought into it but pushed it should be quite worrisome to everyone.  The Washington Post went back and deleted their tweet once they realized they'd been had - down the memory hole for them, also a worrisome practice.

The end result, with all the anonymous sources people so easily duped claim to have, is that the majority of Americans no longer believe anything coming out of the news media.  Obviously for very good reason. Fake news is a standard now, so common that you can no longer tell the fake from the real.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 10:14:32 AM by Crunch »

Seriati

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #193 on: May 23, 2017, 10:42:58 AM »
If--nine years ago--Obama had publicly asked Cuba to commit espionage against McCain while on the campaign trail, and then Wikileaks released a load of stolen internal communications from the Republican campaign,...

If that had occurred, we'd still, nine years later be seeing new stories in the MSM detrimental to the Republicans from either direct quotes in the email or "meta analysis" proving some version of the Republicans are racist, sexist, or homophobic, see,"only a racist would so consistently end their sentences with a preposition."

There is absolutely NO question the media wouldn't give two figs about the source if it damaged Republicans instead of Democrats (note all the "anonymous" sources committing literal treason that are protected by the media today, if they are anti-Trump).

Meanwhile, there are next to no stories about the substance of those leaked emails.  MSM successfully pivoted the entire country to focus on how the leak occurred and not the substance, but hypocritically, asking for the same treatment on anti-trump leaks is attempting to push a "false" narrative to protect the President.

Quote
...and Obama stumped on reopening a closed federal investigation into McCain’s mishandling of classified information, and then the FBI director announced that he needed to reopen the McCain investigation to sort through all of McCain’s aide’s husband’s dick pics to see if McCain had exposed anything highly private to Cuban spies,...

So what's this supposed to be equivalent to?  Did I miss where McCain actually committed a federal crime and the Bush administration refused to prosecute?  Where there was a secret meeting between two planes on a tarmac where the head of the Justice Department met secretly with McCain's wife (or is it only "obstruction" when a President has a meeting  and expresses his hope that a prosecution won't occur?)

If you want to play this game, play it straight, cause throwing down a pre-judged version of nonsense that doesn't matched what happened just proves a bias on your part to me.

Quote
and then our National Security apparatus publicly announced that Cuba had been behind the leak in an act of espionage specifically targeting Republicans in order to influence our election...

And then failed to ever put forward actual proof of the fact, while actual questions about whether their claim was politically motivated in the first place persist?  Where it became widely known that Cuba was not the only group that hacked them, that some of their staffers leaked information, including one killed execution style in the early morning in a "robbery" where nothing was stolen?

I don't dispute that Russians tried to meddle in the election using media influence.  Until the left invested them with mythical super spy/manipulation skills to explain an electoral embarrassment, the obvious intent of their actions was to cause President Clinton to have to spend years defending her own unethical actions. 

Quote
...then I might have been laughing my ass off at this failing American democracy experiment of y’all’s, but I do think I’d also have been pointing out that Obama’s “joke” asking Cuban spies to help him win the election was a gag that, in context, quacked like treason...

Wouldn’t you?

Actually no.  I'm not a moron, and I've pretty well established where I stand on the Rule of Law.  Even for someone like Obama, who in my view, routinely acted against the interests of and to the detriment of the country. 

Quote
Quote
Holding however, the Trump admin responsible to a political standard, while exculpating the Clinton campaign on a legal standard is rank hypocrisy.  Colluding with CNN to influence an election is FAR more likely to have an impact than colluding with the Russians would.  Whether Russian hackers, US hackers or some poor kid working for the DNC who mysteriously ended up murdered in a robbery where nothing was stolen, revealed a secret shouldn't make a bit of difference to your level of outrage, yet it only matters to the Dems if the Russians did it.
I’m sorry--you were pointing out my partisan hypocrisy, and you lost me in your haste to get to your party: remind me where I exculpated Clinton of anything?

What makes you think that was a personal comment?  Was it the vague reference to "Dems" or the prior history there on concepts like "partisans"?  Or just cause it's more convenient to try and defend the specific when you made the general charge initially?

Quote
Seriesly, who the *censored* do you think you’re talking to?

Don't know you at all.  You write like a literary student using words rather than substance to make your case.  I take issue with that.

Quote
I’m not actually one of them Dems, but even I think it’s funny to see you pretend that they weren’t outraged by the scenes where the Clinton machine colluded with the media mainstream. Anyone not stuck seeing straight red could tell you that the leftmost half of the Democrats haven’t stopped complaining about exactly that since the 2008 primaries! Don’t you suspect that at least some “level of outrage” over CNN feeding Clinton questions (at a Democrat primary townhall) came from folks wearing blue in the Bernie camp?

Actually that's kind of my point.  There is a huge chunk of outrage from the extreme left at the party bosses, there's even an active class action law suit by those claiming to be Bernie supporters, and you'd barely know it from the media coverage.  It's almost like there's a campaign to suppress that substantive issue or something.

Quote
Do you ever publish points that aren’t first filtered through a biased-partisan-hypocrite-talking-point-generation machine?

Of course, though not often on purely partisan talking point arguments.  It's hardly my fault that the only talking points from the left are iterations of stop Trump. 

Be happy to debate what the left wants to do on tax reform, or reforming Obamacare, or dealing with immigration and illegal immigration.  Oh wait, the left doesn't have to do any of that?  Why not again?  Of yeah, the claim that Republicans were the party of No so we can be the party of Resistance and refusing to "normalize" our opponents, and suppression of speech we don't like. 

Quote
By the way, you forgot to mention the pizza shop basement pedophilia ring--I’m pretty sure that’s tied together with the DNC intern murder thing, even if the connection is shrouded in mystery--undoubtedly because isn’t getting the coverage it deserves from the mainstream media.

I never read the pizza shop thing directly, what I have read is endless accounts of it as an example.  Is it the only example?  It would crack me up, if it weren't so sad, that the MSM believes that the pizza shop is the dangerous fake news, but their one sided bias and twisting of stories and narratives is just effective advocacy.

Quote
Quote
I started this with a specific demand.  Show the actual evidence of collusion.
I already did. You can claim the liar was just joking when he publicly asked Russian spies to help him win, but you might keep in mind the fact that federal judges have already ruled that the things Trump said on the campaign trail can and will be used against him in a court of law.

Lol.  You clearly know little about law.  A public claim can not be evidence of collusion.  Look up the word.

I get that District court judges have so ruled, an interesting Precedent - in my view unlikely to hold, may even be reversed by the liberal 9th Circuit.  And why?  Cause the flip side of it risks every the left holds dear, empowering everyone of the district judges to overrule facially legal rules because of what a politician once said exposes everything.

Think about it, Texas court bans all payments - Nationwide - to Planned Parenthood because of what a politician said in writing the bill that funds them and inputs that the bill was to fund abortion (illegal) despite that it doesn't do so facially.

Rejoicing in a nonsense standard that has district court judges replace the President's decision making with their own personal opinions is directly contrary to the rule of law, and really is only consistent with the idea of totalitarian rule by philosopher kings.  A judge ordering -nationwide - that the federal government must make payments to cities, replaces the authority of the legislature and the executive with his autocratic opinion. 

If you let the rule of law devolve into the ends justifies the means, it is a pendulum that swings both ways.  Don't believe its possible?  Did I ever tell you about the time the US elected one of the two worse presidential candidates in recent memory, this guy named Trump, and how he continued to blaze the trail of his immediate predecessor and tried to rule through executive orders?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 10:46:53 AM by Seriati »

Wayward Son

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #194 on: May 23, 2017, 03:31:28 PM »
Now this is what I call Fake News:  out-and-out lying.

Newt Gingrich, Sean Hannity and Fox News claim that slain Democratic staffer gave WikiLeaks "something like 53,000 emails," not the Russians.  (Although Fox did retract the report two days later.)

It's one thing to have a headline that isn't supported by the story.  But it's another thing when the story itself is pure speculation in an attempt to distract from a politically inconvenient fact.  Especially when it uses the death of someone as a basis for the lie.

That's fake news.

Fenring

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #195 on: May 23, 2017, 03:48:50 PM »
It's one thing to have a headline that isn't supported by the story.  But it's another thing when the story itself is pure speculation in an attempt to distract from a politically inconvenient fact.  Especially when it uses the death of someone as a basis for the lie.

That's fake news.

Wait, so now you agree that it's fake news to accurately report on what someone said, when what is said happens to be inaccurate? If so I'm somewhat on your side, however you'd better be pretty darn sure the story is false before calling it a "lie". It's still propaganda to publish unsubstantiated rumors, even if somewhere hidden in an article it's stated that it's merely a theory. However in the case of this particular theory I've read a lot and I do not believe you have the basis to call the story false. In this instance I think the best you can do is to call the theory incorrect and lament that the usual suspects will disseminate anything that appears to support their side or hurt the other side. I'm quite sure that Politifact has zero capacity to know the truth of this theory, and the only basis for its claim that the story is false is that Wheeler retracted his certain-sounding comments and amended them to say he couldn't be certain since he didn't see the evidence first-hand. Great, so that means the matter is still up in the air or at worst unknowable. That's a far cry from calling the story an out-and-out lie.

Wikileaks themselves have been sort of hinting that it was Seth, even though they insist they will never divulge a source for any reason. But they do sometimes say things between the lines hope you'll connect the dots. Regardless of whether he was the actual leaker, Wikileaks was saying from the start that the files were leaked and not hacked. If you are so certain that the purveyors of the files themselves are lying about where they got them from, why don't you provide your conclusive, incontrovertible evidence to support the claim of calling the theory a lie (rather than just a shot in the dark)?

cherrypoptart

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #196 on: May 23, 2017, 06:18:48 PM »
Now there's a witness.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/05/breaking-internet-hacker-kim-dot-com-releases-documents-seth-rich-leaked-podesta-wikileaks-emails/

Kim Dot.Com: “I KNOW THAT SETH RICH WAS INVOLVED IN THE DNC LEAK.”

Internet entrepreneur and hacker, Kim DotCom, admitted on Saturday that he was part of an operation along with Seth Rich to get stolen DNC emails to Wikileaks.

---------------------------------------------------------

Why would Mr. DotCom make that up?

Does anyone really believe that Seth Rich was killed in a botched robbery in which the robber didn't take anything of his valuables?

What were the results of a forensic analysis of his laptop?

If someone in the Trump camp got those emails released that makes Trump a traitor to the country so if someone from the DNC did the exact same thing does that make the DNC a traitor to the country too?

Or is it like hate crimes when if it's self inflicted then it doesn't count?

yossarian22c

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #197 on: May 23, 2017, 08:41:25 PM »
Now there's a witness.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/05/breaking-internet-hacker-kim-dot-com-releases-documents-seth-rich-leaked-podesta-wikileaks-emails/

Kim Dot.Com: “I KNOW THAT SETH RICH WAS INVOLVED IN THE DNC LEAK.”

Internet entrepreneur and hacker, Kim DotCom, admitted on Saturday that he was part of an operation along with Seth Rich to get stolen DNC emails to Wikileaks.

---------------------------------------------------------

Why would Mr. DotCom make that up?
Partisan shenanigans. But more likely self promotion and greed. Had you ever head of "internet entrepreneur" Kim DotCom before today? And now you have (and lots of other right wing conspiracy theorists) increasing his notoriety and possibly revenue from whatever he entrepreneurs on the internet.
Quote

Does anyone really believe that Seth Rich was killed in a botched robbery in which the robber didn't take anything of his valuables?
Yes, considering that is what the police and his family believe.
Quote
What were the results of a forensic analysis of his laptop?
I have no idea, but I doubt the contents of a victim's laptop are something that is typically revealed in the course of an investigation.

Quote
If someone in the Trump camp got those emails released that makes Trump a traitor to the country so if someone from the DNC did the exact same thing does that make the DNC a traitor to the country too?

Or is it like hate crimes when if it's self inflicted then it doesn't count?

If someone in the Trump camp hacked the emails and leaked them to wikileaks that is a crime.  It doesn't make them a traitor to the country but it makes them a criminal.  If someone working for the DNC leaked the same thing it most likely makes them a whistle blower (with some potential overlap with a crime being committed, depending on how the emails were obtained).

cherrypoptart

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #198 on: May 23, 2017, 09:33:21 PM »
Julian Assange also as much as said it was Seth Rich.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/05/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-tweets-cryptic-message-seth-rich/

 Julian Assange‏ @JulianAssange

WikiLeaks has never disclosed a source. Sources sometimes talk to other parties but identities never emerge from WikiLeaks. #SethRich

  11:08 PM - 21 May 2017

---------------------------------------------------------------

That's a lot more evidence in favor of it being Seth Rich than any Russians.

Gaoics79

  • Members
    • View Profile
Re: The Fake News Lie that makes Trump look like a Boy Scout in compariso
« Reply #199 on: May 24, 2017, 05:44:07 AM »
Quote
Had you ever head of "internet entrepreneur" Kim DotCom before today?

I certainly had. He is the founder of Megaupload. He's notorious actually, and was in the news several years back when they raided his mansion. I didn't follow the case but I presumed they had him in jail for mass copyright infringement or whatnot.

Julian Assange I have heard of too and when he says the data was leaked from the DNC I believe him and I don't believe the lying CIA.