Author Topic: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left  (Read 3648 times)

Seriati

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Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« on: July 06, 2017, 11:23:57 AM »
I don't get it.  When I read the NYT's message boards, or any message board where people from the left routinely congregate, I see a constantly repeated theme:  Republicans are moving more to the Right.  Yet, I see no actual evidence of this, what does it even mean? 

On virtually every social issue both parties have moved to the left.  What was once extreme and controversial is almost uniformly mainstream, and becoming more so every day.  Whether it be a social justice issue like treatment of homosexuals, where they were once openly persecuted, but now are widely accepted, and speaking against them is toxic to a politician of either party.  Or an issue like welfare, where the idea of government handouts was once generally offensive to people and now we've permanently institutionalized entitlements programs that no one will touch, politicians label it "non-discretionary" spending to pretend they can't do anything about it.  Even "flash point" issues like abortion have shifted massively with a majority of people disapproving but wanting them to remain legal, and while they still generate rhetoric they don't generate any real legal change.

So what exactly is this massive shift to the Right?  It seems to me to be mostly a product of echo chamber thinking from people who are actually more extremely left, than any reality we face, but maybe I'm missing something objective.

Gaoics79

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2017, 11:35:00 AM »
Seriati I have had this debate with friends who repeatedly touted the so-called power of groups like evangelicals and other social conservatives and their alleged influence. I noted that without exception, they have suffered nothing but defeat after humiliating defeat on every major social issue that mattered to them in the last 50 years, from abortion to no fault divorce to sodomy laws to school prayer to evolution in classrooms to same sex marriage and now with respect to trans issues like sex segregated bathrooms. I noted that for such a well funded and influential group they really really sucked at influencing anything.

As I see it the left needs a good bogeyman to stoke their base and nothing works better than the fearsome right (particularly the religious Christian wing) even if they are obviously now a spent force.

For the Republicans who court their votes, it's convenient to have an angry, impotent group of voters who might know their cause is lost, but also know you're the only game in town to at least throw them a few symbolic crumbs, if nothing else.

NobleHunter

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2017, 11:52:24 AM »
The GOP seems to be in the midst of discussing how to dismantle Medicaid (or Care? I don't feel like looking it up) or at least hobble it into irrelevance. Once they're done using the non-discretionary health care programs to pay for tax cuts, there's every sign they'll go after other programs.

Abortion clinics are under nearly constant legal harassment in a number of states. Even if it nominally remains legal, it doesn't matter if there's no provider you can reach. The impression I get is more that since they can't make it illegal, they'll do whatever they can to prevent it. I don't think it's a sign of a general left-ward trend.

On gun control, the right is essentially unopposed. Last year, I would have said the Right had run the board on Free Trade, as well, but the landscape is shifting on that topic. Though I think the anti-free trade rhetoric from the President has a right-wing flavor.

The GOP is embracing and using particularly nasty ideas about trans and non-binary people. That gives the impression that they've stopped openly expressing their antipathy to gay people rather than abandoning it. There's a lot of state level shenanigans on that issue as well.

Complicating factors: there's a massive difference between Federal and State. So while abortion is a non-issue federally, it's a major issue in several states. If they thought they could get a favourable ruling from the Supreme Court, they'd outlaw abortion in a (embryonic) heartbeat, even if the Feds would probably duck the issue. That seems to be true for a whole host of social issues. Since we're staring down the barrel of a solidly conservative court depending on who retires in the next few years, I think there's reason to be concerned.

There's also the tendency to conflate positions which are perceived to be discriminatory or disadvantageous towards minorities to be right wing (which is reflective of the way the left has won on rhetoric regarding those issues). Not to mention the tendency to simplify right-wing to mean "anything the GOP loudly espouses."

TheDrake

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2017, 12:01:31 PM »
So what exactly is this massive shift to the Right?  It seems to me to be mostly a product of echo chamber thinking from people who are actually more extremely left, than any reality we face, but maybe I'm missing something objective.

Reagan championed Amnesty, which is untouchable today for build-a-wall republicans. He raised taxes multiple times, which is unthinkable to many of the newest Republicans. Just two that come to mind. Then Bush era - No Child Left Behind is roundly criticized in right leaning circles today, and Medicare part-D? Forget about it. Entitlement!

Gaoics79

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2017, 12:37:54 PM »
Noble you are touting the crumbs while progressives ran away with the roast, the stuffing and the cherry pie. Gay marriage is over. Abortion is over. Progressives won. If all Republicans can do is create nuisance laws to annoy progressives and placate their base, that's sad for them.

The only issue you mentioned that is still a going concern is gun control which arguably isn't even completely a right versus left issue (I suspect it's more rural versus urban frankly - which should hint at where I think things are headed)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 12:40:31 PM by jasonr »

NobleHunter

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2017, 12:57:55 PM »
Noble you are touting the crumbs while progressives ran away with the roast, the stuffing and the cherry pie. Gay marriage is over. Abortion is over. Progressives won. If all Republicans can do is create nuisance laws to annoy progressives and placate their base, that's sad for them.

The only issue you mentioned that is still a going concern is gun control which arguably isn't even completely a right versus left issue (I suspect it's more rural versus urban frankly - which should hint at where I think things are headed)
Go tell PP that abortion is over. It's not just nuisance laws when it's forcing clinics to close.

What about "religious freedom" laws? States are still trying to deny benefits to married same-sex couples. I'll believe gay marriage is over when the Supreme Court with two or three Trump appointees shuts down the assorted ways the States are trying to get around Obergefell.

Gun Control isn't an on-going concern. It's over. Even after Sandy Hook, there was weak-sauce attempts at something that looked like gun control but wouldn't accomplish anything. Until and unless there's a possibility the Supreme Court will reverse it's interpretation of the 2nd or there's a movement for a gun-control amendment, nothing will change.

Pete at Home

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2017, 01:15:01 PM »
Tell Sanders that the Gun control battle is over, when,that's the sole issue that Clinton nailed him on over and over in debates.

And then Clinto wondered why Republicans were,saying,she wanted,to,take their guns.

Gaoics79

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2017, 01:17:42 PM »
Noble you are again pointing at little scraps as if they mean anything.

And the "Trump" Supreme court is the same as the Obama one - unless you are implying that Scalia was a liberal :)

D.W.

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2017, 01:57:25 PM »
Quote
Tell Sanders that the Gun control battle is over, when,that's the sole issue that Clinton nailed him on over and over in debates.
As a gun toting Democrat I find the characterization that she "nailed him on it" interesting.  Not sure what Sander's personal opinion is on guns, but I think not being vehemently for draconian gun control reform/enhancement was the smart play.

Are you suggesting this was a significant factor in his defeat?

NobleHunter

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2017, 03:52:47 PM »
Noble you are again pointing at little scraps as if they mean anything.

And the "Trump" Supreme court is the same as the Obama one - unless you are implying that Scalia was a liberal :)
Scraps which prevent people from exercising the rights that are supposedly no longer matters of controversy. The Supreme Court regularly has to rule on these matters, usually by striking down all or part of the law.

Note I said two or three Trump appointees.

Seriati

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2017, 11:13:38 AM »
Noblehunter, I really want to go point by point on what you said, but that'd be a derail from what I really want to understand here.  I agree with jasonr, you're citing to places where the current position is far more left than the historical position and where Republicans are arguing for a position left of that history let alone where the "right" used to be on the position.  It's not evidence of a right shift at all.

I think you're confused on Medicaid/Medicare.  It's hard to parse because the statistics have been generated to be as partisan as possible, but even under the Republican plans Medicaid spending increases.  There is no plan underwhich it actually decreases.  Once again we're labeling slower growth as a cut.  Of course, traditionally, medicaid was funded 50-75% by the feds, Obama greatly expanded the covered people and promised 100% federal funding that never declines below 90%.  That's not a promise he actually paid for.  It follows the long history of the left of buying votes today, with burdens for politicians in the future to pay for.  In this case, Republicans have 3 choices, 1. pay for Democratic vote buying by raising taxes - double hit, 2. pay for Democratic vote buying by cutting other expenditures - double hit, or 3. refuse to pay for democratic vote buying and get accused of taking away a benefit - which ends up being a double hit as well.

And PP?  There's a law making it illegal for federal funds to pay for abortion, yet PP receives hundreds of millions of dollars a year.  Yet it took a SC decision to clarify that non-religious preschool run out of a church was improperly prevented from receiving a grant available to all other preschools to resurface its playground.  There is no constitutional or statutory prohibition on churches receiving federal funds, let alone on receiving them for secular purposes.  It causes no cognitive dissonance on the left to be appalled at the latter and see no issue with the former.  Somehow this is evidence of the Republicans moving Right?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 11:20:59 AM by Seriati »

rightleft22

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2017, 01:45:06 PM »
Eventually if you go left far enough you come out right…

Of course, the Horseshoe theory has been criticized by extremists on both ends of the political spectrum who oppose being grouped with those they consider to be their polar opposites… which some might argue validates the theory

NobleHunter

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2017, 08:43:50 PM »
Historically, Jim Crow used to be a right-wing position. So did any number of currently accepted positions. Makes your position a bit hard to pin down.

TheDeamon

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2017, 09:07:04 PM »
Historically, Jim Crow used to be a right-wing position. So did any number of currently accepted positions. Makes your position a bit hard to pin down.

"Right-Wing" where exactly? The South? I don't recall it being particularly popular in the northern states, or many of the western ones either. At least so long as the discussion was theoretical for them at least.

This is a case where "conservative" is getting confused with "right-wing" in an inappropriate way. In the south, Jim Crow was "the way things are/were" so as such, the "conservative response" to attempts to change it was to resist it.

Because that's what conservatives do, they resist change. It is a penultimate definition of what constitutes a "conservative" across any era in time or in any nation.

Which is one distinction that has been lost by the Democratic party in general as they've lost most of their moderates over the past couple of decades. They don't really have any "liberal conservatives" to speak of anymore, they've been largely run out of the party.

The Republican party has a "right-wing problem" in many respects, because the reality is that the party, much to the annoyance of many people, in particular the Tea Party and Libertarians, is very much a "conservative" organization. They're the party of the status quo, they talk about pulling things back the other direction because that's where they have to go in order to get votes, but generally speaking, they're more than content with the status quo.

The issue present in the United States at this point is that the Democratic party has gone towards the hard-left and is steadily pulling things in that direction, and the GOP is following along as the DNC implements and champions changes which become "the new normal" which becomes that new "status quo" which conservatives then proceed to defend because they resist change, and most of the changes "seem to work" so there's no need to upset the cart all over again to change it back.

There is no real viable "right-wing" party out there at present with a genuine agenda of trying to pull anything "to the right." (However "the right" is being defined at the time)

The closest thing there is to a "viable right-wing" in the United States of America is the Libertarians/"Constitutionalists", and that's a not very cohesive bunch at present, but in general, if they terrify you on social issues, you probably have "issues" of your own.

yossarian22c

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2017, 09:58:27 PM »
Over the past 30 years liberals have won most of the social issues in terms of governance. Gay rights, women's rights, and acceptance of minority cultures have all become the mainstream.  This has left a large group on the left in a way a victim of their own success, there are still things that can be improved in those areas but by and large there doesn't need to be any major government initiatives in to address those concerns today. In these areas, I think the "activists" would do well to largely become "conservatives" in the sense that they fight to protect the gains they have made and push for more minor changes when problems need addressing. However I think they are more likely to go the way of the labor unions. After unions won the rights to a shorter workweek, benefits, and generally all the perks we associate with a good job they kept fighting until it was impossible to fire anyone, unless they showed up drunk and passed out on the plant floor. Continuing to "fight" after you've won the most important battles is the way to obsolescence.

To were the right has won and continues to move to the right is on economic matters and tax policy. Taxes are the lowest they have been since WWII but few Americans know that because of the propaganda of the right (and partially because the biggest tax cuts have gone to the very wealthy). The minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation, more welfare style programs have numerous hoops the poor have to jump through to make sure they are "poor" enough to deserve help. These "fraud and waste" checks the right champions actually serve to ensure the programs end up at times making it harder than necessary for people to escape poverty (in exactly the ways the right then points to the programs and demeans them for trapping people in poverty.) The right champions doing away with tax brackets that shift more of tax burden off the wealthy and onto the middle class. Taxes were raised under Reagan but pretty much any tax increases are anathema to any nationally elected republican at this point.

When I think of the right moving further to the right I generally think about the economic issues. That isn't to say there aren't some reactionaries that oppose some of the social changes but by and large they aren't becoming more extreme, occasionally more desperate because they see how they've basically already lost and are trying to win a few last victories.

TheDeamon

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2017, 10:45:22 PM »
To were the right has won and continues to move to the right is on economic matters and tax policy. Taxes are the lowest they have been since WWII but few Americans know that because of the propaganda of the right (and partially because the biggest tax cuts have gone to the very wealthy). The minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation, more welfare style programs have numerous hoops the poor have to jump through to make sure they are "poor" enough to deserve help. These "fraud and waste" checks the right champions actually serve to ensure the programs end up at times making it harder than necessary for people to escape poverty (in exactly the ways the right then points to the programs and demeans them for trapping people in poverty.) The right champions doing away with tax brackets that shift more of tax burden off the wealthy and onto the middle class. Taxes were raised under Reagan but pretty much any tax increases are anathema to any nationally elected republican at this point.

This is where the "other part of the equation" comes into play with regards to (strict definition) "conservatives." There is another very powerful group out there that favors stability, that status quo, and so forth: big business and big money. They are the penultimate "conservative" in that they want to preserve their personal empires. I've now fully resigned myself to the fact that the Republican Party is bought and paid for by the Fortune 500 and associated ancillary organizations(US Chamber of Commerce, etc). They HATE uncertainty in their respective markets, while simultaneously loving anything that improves their own personal/professional profit margins.

Which is also where things gets loopy. They seem to be running a "mom and pop" type family game with the nation at large. They run to "mom" (the DNC) for "protective measures" that they believe will screw their competition more than it will screw themselves. Then they'll run to "dad" (the GOP) for actions that will improve their profit margins(and usually screwing their employees and customers in the process).

But honestly, I think the biggest hurdle on the "ObamaCare repeal/replacement" side of things on the Republican Side is that the Fortune 500 and company doesn't like the idea of the "market uncertainty" that would ensue if the Republicans just killed the thing on a 3 or 4 year delay to give congress time to draft a new option in the interim. Of course, political considerations also come into play as well, as we go back to "Conservatives resist change" and conservative(moderate) voters wouldn't be happy with that either.

Pete at Home

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2017, 05:02:50 PM »
Historically, Jim Crow used to be a right-wing position. So did any number of currently accepted positions. Makes your position a bit hard to pin down.

"Right-Wing" where exactly? The South? I don't recall it being particularly popular in the northern states, or many of the western ones either. At least so long as the discussion was theoretical for them at least.

This is a case where "conservative" is getting confused with "right-wing" in an inappropriate way. In the south, Jim Crow was "the way things are/were" so as such, the "conservative response" to attempts to change it was to resist it.

Because that's what conservatives do, they resist change. It is a penultimate definition of what constitutes a "conservative" across any era in time or in any nation.

Which is one distinction that has been lost by the Democratic party in general as they've lost most of their moderates over the past couple of decades. They don't really have any "liberal conservatives" to speak of anymore, they've been largely run out of the party.

The Republican party has a "right-wing problem" in many respects, because the reality is that the party, much to the annoyance of many people, in particular the Tea Party and Libertarians, is very much a "conservative" organization. They're the party of the status quo, they talk about pulling things back the other direction because that's where they have to go in order to get votes, but generally speaking, they're more than content with the status quo.

The issue present in the United States at this point is that the Democratic party has gone towards the hard-left and is steadily pulling things in that direction, and the GOP is following along as the DNC implements and champions changes which become "the new normal" which becomes that new "status quo" which conservatives then proceed to defend because they resist change, and most of the changes "seem to work" so there's no need to upset the cart all over again to change it back.

There is no real viable "right-wing" party out there at present with a genuine agenda of trying to pull anything "to the right." (However "the right" is being defined at the time)

The closest thing there is to a "viable right-wing" in the United States of America is the Libertarians/"Constitutionalists", and that's a not very cohesive bunch at present, but in general, if they terrify you on social issues, you probably have "issues" of your own.

Conservative is wrong because. Jim Crow was instituted in 1890 through a successful terrorist campaign against reconstruction. It wasn't about conserving what was; it was a regressionist, reactionary, violent movement to turn back the clock.

TheDeamon

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2017, 05:29:29 PM »
Conservative is wrong because. Jim Crow was instituted in 1890 through a successful terrorist campaign against reconstruction. It wasn't about conserving what was; it was a regressionist, reactionary, violent movement to turn back the clock.

Some of those "Jim Crow" laws had versions that pre-dated the Civil War as I recall. But I won't argue that re-implementation or implementation in the first place circa-1890 was a reactionary/regressionist move.

However, by 1930, in those same areas, if those laws still stood, defense of them would have then become a "conservative" position for those who had lived under them for 40 years.

That said, I do think "a conservative effort" to "reverse a recent change" can qualify as "a conservative effort" depending on the extent of the change, and how quickly they get around to acting on it. For example, at this point, still fighting against Gay Marriage would still qualify as a "conservative" ideal, as it's basically staking a position that "things may have changed too quickly, so we're rolling back the clock." But going to the point of wanting to sign homosexuals up for special counseling, or locking them away in psych wards has shifted over to the reactionary/regressionist camp at this point.

Much like access to over the counter birth control is pretty much a solidly conservative position at this point. It's the argument over when termination of pregnancy  become murder that remains at issue now, but few people hold to the "life begins at conception" position anymore, even among the conservatives.

Pete at Home

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2017, 08:45:01 PM »
Mere "conservatives" don't put sheets on their head and ride around at night burning people alive and destroying churches to reverse" a "recent trend."

Also, rules against 'miscegenation" (not to mention the idiotic word itself) didn't exist anywhere until the late 1850s. And free blacks could vote in Louisiana before 1861.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 08:53:09 PM by Pete at Home »

TheDeamon

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2017, 09:54:19 PM »
Mere "conservatives" don't put sheets on their head and ride around at night burning people alive and destroying churches to reverse" a "recent trend."

Several misnomers on a number of things here: This was in an era that was pre-internet.

1) Information wasn't as available then as it is now. Confirmed information about such activities was hard to come by, unless you actually knew the people who were involved, and they told you they participated. As it's a safe bet that "connections" and "vested interests" (either because they were in the KKK themselves, or they were under thread) in the deep south took great strides to try to suppress such information making it into the local press, leaving "local word of mouth"(rumor mill) as the only means to be aware of such things, unless you had close ties to those involved. Honestly, it probably wasn't until the advent of radio(and soon thereafter television--and the national news feeds that came with that) which broke that information stranglehold in local markets. Even then, I'm sure the local station managers were still trying to keep it under wraps.

2) "Statistically speaking" given what the estimates are for membership in the KKK near its peak, the number of members who actually involved themselves in such blatantly violent/murderous acts were comparatively few and far between. At it's peak, it's estimated it's membership was in the millions, and that lasted for decades. Yet the total number of (near) deaths that are even suspected of being "racially motivated" are surprisingly few despite that, and tended to coincide with particularly tense "periods of high emotion" where rational thought tends to go out the window. It doesn't excuse what happened, when such things happened, and they were all together too common all the same. But as "common" as they were, they still weren't particularly normal all things considered.

3) This does not make beating people until they're only "almost senseless" rather than in significant danger of death, burning crosses in people's yards, or generally helping promote an environment of intimidation and fear(which helped create those previously mentioned"high emotion" scenarios) somehow acceptable or OK. But such activities exist at a slightly different level than actually trying to kill someone. Such environments helped desensitize a very small percentage of the perpetrators into taking progressively more aggressive, and ultimately lethal actions. But that still doesn't mean someone having been a member of the KKK 100 years ago meant they automatically were a murderous bigot just waiting for his chance to kill himself "some darkies." 

Fact is, from what I understand of the history in the South at the time, more often than not, it's entirely possible many(not most) of the members weren't even all that bigoted in the first place, their only reason for being there was for the social networking opportunities it presented(and to prevent being ostracized/place on the list of people to be intimidated). That's probably a very large part of how and why the KKK folded so quickly after the Civil Rights and (federal) law enforcement initiatives in the 1960's. The KKK became a "social liability" for most of those people, and when paired with Federal Law Enforcement attention, they had little to no reason to fear retaliation,  so the "more reluctant members" jumped ship at the first chance they received.

As to the present day. I'd actually be inclined to suspect that most(not all, because some are) White Surpemacists even in the United States are not murderous bigots. Are they bigots? Certainly. Would they be likely to do much of anything if they knew beyond a reasonable doubt that one of their "fellow bigots" was about to go out and start killing others? I think they'd probably start tipping off LEO's in order to stop them. Now if they thought those guys were going out to "harm others" it probably is a different matter entirely from their point of view then, but I think you'd find a lot them would draw a line at intentional killing.

There's a world of difference between the idea of going out and doing something, or supporting others who would do so. It's another matter entirely when it comes down to the reality of actually doing so.

Quote
Also, rules against 'miscegenation" (not to mention the idiotic word itself) didn't exist anywhere until the late 1850s. And free blacks could vote in Louisiana before 1861.

Free blacks in Louisiana prior to 1861 were probably very few and far between, I'd probably guess there might have been a few hundred of them in total? They had no reason to be concerned about "black voters" prior to that because they didn't exist in any kind of numbers as to be any kind of significant factor in even a local election. It wasn't until every black was no longer enslaved, and thus comprised a near(if not outright) majority in most communities that action was deemed warranted. So while the ban on black voters smells of blatant racism, and it certainly had racial motivations. The "incentive" for action in that regard had a simpler basis in my book: It was the people in power at the time saw a threat to their power base, and they acted to neutralize it.

As to "miscegenation" that gets to be a more complicated issue there, but at a guess, I'd wager some of that had to do with "cultural mores" of the era, and while certainly racist, probably not quite in the way some would portray it. "Free women" were expected to be married, in most cases, slaves weren't allowed to marry, and no slave owner who desired to retain their social standing would think of marrying a slave. It gets worse here because we're also talking the Victorian Era at this point, so "men of good standing" were basically expected to have both a wife and a mistress. For the slave owners, this basically translated into you have a (white) wife whom you marry to carry on the family line, and then you use your slaves as a mistress-proxy of sorts.

In this case, the miscegenation laws were probably the landowning (white) family "main line" putting laws into place which would serve to "protect their family line."

On another level, some of that also may have been a more practical concern about potential for "inadvertent incest" occurring because of how many female slaves in particular were treated, and where their "mixed-race baby" may have obviously had a white father, but nobody was sure who the daddy actually was. Alternately, the baby's father was known, and "good old dad" made sure the baby disappeared by being shipped off to another different plantation and never speaking of the child again. Don't need Junior going off to the State University and meet "an interesting black girl" while there, bring her home(or worse, marry her beforehand!) and for Dad(or someone else) to connect the dots only to discover Junior just married his half-sister. Yeah, that's a potential scandal I could certainly see them easily envisioning, actively trying to avoid, and not wanting to talk about openly or on record anywhere.

So long as they were slaves, it wasn't a problem, because hey, they're slaves. But once that changed....

Pete at Home

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2017, 11:09:59 PM »
Quote
Tell Sanders that the Gun control battle is over, when,that's the sole issue that Clinton nailed him on over and over in debates.
As a gun toting Democrat I find the characterization that she "nailed him on it" interesting.  Not sure what Sander's personal opinion is on guns, but I think not being vehemently for draconian gun control reform/enhancement was the smart play.

Are you suggesting this was a significant factor in his defeat?

Yes, and in many of the left turning on him.  I agree what he did was smart and what she did was stupid. It cost Sanders the nomination and cost the DNC the presidency.

Pete at Home

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2017, 11:16:39 PM »
By Louisiana standards there might have been only a few hundred free "blacks" but there were thousands upon thousands of what Louisiana called "free Creoles" who would be called black in other parts of the race- benighted country.


D.W.

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2017, 10:28:03 AM »
I suppose I look at those on the left you who's vote you DEFIANTLY lose if you are not for additional / more strict gun control.  Then I look at those you lose from the middle who MAY have voted for you if you if not for the gun control issue.  Then those on the right who MAY have stayed home if not for the gun control issue.

I think the left/media significantly overestimates the value of the first group and underestimates (writes off as already in "the other" column) those NOT in that first group.

In short, I believe Democrats have less single issue voters on guns than there are votes to be gained from moderate single issue voters, not to mention those who are single issue voters on guns from the right who feel it is an imperative to see you lose, who may not otherwise have cared about the election.

Did it hurt Sanders in the primary?  Sure.  Would it have made him a stronger candidate in the general?  Yep.  Without a doubt in my mind.
But pragmatists are not welcome in politics anymore it seems.

Pete at Home

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2017, 05:40:36 PM »
Senator Moynihan's (NY-D)'s last interview gives some hint why the DNC cannot afford to allow someone like Sanders into the presidency.  If the country actually allowed African Americans and Hispanics to move into the  middle class, they run the danger of becoming Republicans.

TheDeamon

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2017, 07:35:05 PM »
One thing that just came to me while reading an Op-ed elsewhere(media commenting on how embarrassed they are about how the media is covering itself in regards to Trump).

It brought up something completely tangential to their discussion. CNN for example fixated on the matter that Ivanka Trump sat in the chair that was reserved for Donald Trump, and participated in international meetings from that chair. Oh my, the scandal!

To think that a sitting Republican President would have the sheer nerve and audacity to even think of allowing a woman to sit in the Chair of the President of the United States and speak on behalf of the President. It's almost like this seething incompetent orangeatane that is going to set back women's rights back 50 years or more, somehow seems to actually respect and hold at least some women in high regard. (Granted, there is a nepotism angle to be had as well)

But I imagine if President Obama had allowed Michelle to perform in such a role(as their daughters were too young to do so), the Media would have been praising him for taking such a step. Instead, CNN tries to make scandal fodder out it by talking about "how the Republicans would have responded if it was Chelsea Clinton up there" seriously? Is that all they have?

Greg Davidson

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2017, 02:20:55 AM »
I think you are wrong. The media flipped out once when Obama gave a salute with a coffee cup in his hand or some such nonsense (something which it later emerged that Bush 43 had done as well with no media commentary). Hillary Clinton was criticized in the early 1990's for being given a policy role in the Clinton healthcare plan because she was not an elected official. 

Greg Davidson

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2017, 02:23:31 AM »
Towards the broader point, there are some wins in terms of framing for each side of the political spectrum. I think it is noteworthy that the pre-Obamacare status quo has become politically toxic (about 17% support for the various Trumpcare bills, and all of them are no worse than things were in 2008). That's what Biden meant when he said the passage of Obamacare was a BFD.


TheDeamon

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2017, 08:28:07 PM »
Towards the broader point, there are some wins in terms of framing for each side of the political spectrum. I think it is noteworthy that the pre-Obamacare status quo has become politically toxic (about 17% support for the various Trumpcare bills, and all of them are no worse than things were in 2008). That's what Biden meant when he said the passage of Obamacare was a BFD.

IIRC, most of us concluded the 2012 campaign cycle was the last chance to prevent most of the changes from becoming permanent(as full implementation started in 2014, IIRC). So the current logjam is unsurprising political theater. Hurricane Sandy's more enduring legacy.

Seriati

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Re: Democratic beliefs about Right versus Left
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2017, 09:42:14 AM »
Hillary Clinton was criticized in the early 1990's for being given a policy role in the Clinton healthcare plan because she was not an elected official. 

This is true, but also fifteen years ago.  No one had ever heard of a millennial at that time, it's a different world.  Chelsea was not criticized for being active in her mother's campaign (in fairness though, Chelsea has to get the kid gloves, she is the literal poster child for the abuse that kids of politicians used to unfairly receive).   But it's beyond that, there was plenty of express grooming and even speculation about her future candidacy were going on during the campaign, she was frequently asked that question in a friendly way.  Honestly, I can't envision a situation where Hillary and Chelsea would have been anything but celebrated by the media for Chelsea taking on a role in her mother's administration, whether it was formal or even informal.