Author Topic: Russia and US politics  (Read 27837 times)

yossarian22c

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #100 on: March 07, 2018, 09:14:53 AM »
It’s literally turning out that the entire thing was orchestrated by Hillary and her loyalists in the FBI.

You're right they orchestrated this whole thing. So in your world they:
1) Tricked all of the Trump officials into meetings with Russians
2) Tipped off the FBI about those meetings and contacts
3) Forgot to leak anything to the press that the Trump campaign was under investigation until after the election.


DonaldD

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #101 on: March 07, 2018, 11:59:29 AM »
Without even reading your other points, Crunch, since #2 is completely inaccurate, why should we entertain any of them?

Fenring

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #102 on: March 07, 2018, 12:20:59 PM »
3) Forgot to leak anything to the press that the Trump campaign was under investigation until after the election.

I'm coming up short parsing the sarcastic meaning of this clause. What are you saying did/didn't happen?

TheDrake

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #103 on: March 07, 2018, 12:40:42 PM »
3) Forgot to leak anything to the press that the Trump campaign was under investigation until after the election.

I'm coming up short parsing the sarcastic meaning of this clause. What are you saying did/didn't happen?

If the intent was to destroy Trump, why not leak all the information on the investigation of his associates prior to the election in order to smear him, rather than waiting to "soft" impeach him? I think that news cropped up in Dec/Jan if I recall correctly.


Seriati

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #104 on: March 07, 2018, 12:45:06 PM »
The only part of 2 that is "completely inaccurate" is that it says "direct" when it should have said "indirect" or "through a number of cutouts reminiscent of a RICO avoidance style mafia operation."

You're right they orchestrated this whole thing. So in your world they:
1) Tricked all of the Trump officials into meetings with Russians

I'm not sure this isn't true.  I certainly find the meetings between Fusion GPS and the Russian lawyer before and after the meeting with Trump Jr. highly suspicious.  It looks to me, like direct evidence of the more savvy political operation setting up the less savvy.  Change the context to someone you disagree with, like say if Project Veritas has met with such Russian lawyer before and after a meeting it held with Podesta and tell me you wouldn't see the potential problem. 

Not proof I concede, but Clinton is probably the foremost expert on "not proof" we've seen in the political sphere.

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2) Tipped off the FBI about those meetings and contacts

That's just a fact.  In fact, they seem to have "tipped" them more than once because they didn't see enough results.

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3) Forgot to leak anything to the press that the Trump campaign was under investigation until after the election.

They didn't forget.  There are an endless number of press accounts acknowledging that the Russian dossier was leaked to them prior to the election.  As there wasn't an active investigation into the Trump campaign at that point, what else did you want them to leak (or I guess rather to make up whole cloth)?


[/quote]

Fenring

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #105 on: March 07, 2018, 12:46:20 PM »
If the intent was to destroy Trump, why not leak all the information on the investigation of his associates prior to the election in order to smear him, rather than waiting to "soft" impeach him? I think that news cropped up in Dec/Jan if I recall correctly.

But why should that be strange? The two contesting narratives are that either:

1) This is all a smear campaign designed as a scorched-Earth tactic when Hillary's team lost. In this case by definition it only makes makes sense to have begun such a campaign after losing.

2) This was a real scandal and that it was kept under wraps until Hillary lost. In this scenario it actually does seem odd, since why not reveal this damaging stuff before the election?

If anything, when comparing these two scenarios, it seems far less logical that #2 is the truth, since indeed why shouldn't they have tried to bury Trump's election run with it? But I wasn't sure if Yossarian was really making that point, or exactly what his point was, so I wanted to ask.

Seriati

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #106 on: March 07, 2018, 12:48:05 PM »
Oh sorry, if you are wondering why they didn't leak the Trump Jr. meeting?  I think the answer is that they could only know about it in one of two ways, one they set it up or two they discovered it because of an illegal spying operation and/or their own collusion with the Russians.

DonaldD

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #107 on: March 07, 2018, 01:25:49 PM »
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The only part of 2 that is "completely inaccurate" is that it says "direct" when it should have said "indirect"
No - the DNC did not even "indirectly" pay Steele; they hired Fusion GPS, as did the RNC before them.  As well, Clinton was not involved in hiring Fusion GPS.

So yes, that's pretty much completely inaccurate.

As it is, why some folks obsess over Steele is really weird: it's as if they believe that his production of 'the dossier' (always in scare quotes) was inherently 'a really bad thing' and linking 'the dossier' directly to someone is sufficient to tarnish them.  I get that that flavour of Kool Aid tastes really good...

DJQuag

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #108 on: March 07, 2018, 04:17:28 PM »
Russia just tried to kill another ex spy in Britain. And his daughter.

It was nerve poison. And as others have said, the method was a message. Like the polonium, Russia doesn't care that people know that they did it. They're looking to send a message. They can get you no matter where you are.

Interesting.

Seriati

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #109 on: March 07, 2018, 05:15:28 PM »
As it is, why some folks obsess over Steele is really weird: it's as if they believe that his production of 'the dossier' (always in scare quotes) was inherently 'a really bad thing' and linking 'the dossier' directly to someone is sufficient to tarnish them.  I get that that flavour of Kool Aid tastes really good...

People "obsess" over Steele because the primary accusation against the Trump campaign seemed to be related to obtaining a benefit from a foreign national in violation of campaign laws.  Whereas there doesn't seem to have been a payment or an clear benefit sought.

Steele on the other hand, is a foreign national who was paid indirectly by a political campaign for materials directly related to the dirty tricks part of its arsenal.

The idea that the first is "the biggest issue of the century" and the second is "nothing to look at is" seems remarkably hypocritical.

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The only part of 2 that is "completely inaccurate" is that it says "direct" when it should have said "indirect"
No - the DNC did not even "indirectly" pay Steele; they hired Fusion GPS, as did the RNC before them.  As well, Clinton was not involved in hiring Fusion GPS.

Branch out on your sources.  It's flat out known that the DNC and Clinton indirectly funded Fusion GPS through their lawyers - thus the statement about RICO avoidance style cut outs. 

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So yes, that's pretty much completely inaccurate.

No the error was to say direct instead of indirect.  Heck even Shiff's crew's defense of the FBI has turned on the FISA application is a claim that the political source of his payments was disclosed to the judge.  Odd defense if there was no political source.

Crunch

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #110 on: March 07, 2018, 05:48:47 PM »
Without even reading your other points, Crunch, since #2 is completely inaccurate, why should we entertain any of them?

Steele was paid $160,000 to create the dossier. The money came from the Clinton campaign and the DNC. So maybe “directly” was an overstatement. Hillary and the DNC washed the money through FusionGPS. This is common knowledge and well documented. Of course, you can continue  to refuse to believe the facts but this is easily googleable and I suggest you at least try.

LetterRip

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #111 on: March 07, 2018, 07:08:42 PM »
Crunch,

do you have any source that suggests that someone on Clinton's campaign specifically knew who Steele was or that FusionGPS would hire him specifically?

If not - then your speculation seems highly unreasonable.

FusionGPS was and is a well known research firm with a great reputation for intelligence gathering both nationally and internationally and is regularly used by business and law firms when they want thorough research done on a variety of topics.

Fenring

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #112 on: March 07, 2018, 07:25:58 PM »
do you have any source that suggests that someone on Clinton's campaign specifically knew who Steele was or that FusionGPS would hire him specifically?

Why is it relevant whether he was handpicked? Hypothetically, if the DNC instructed their lawyers to have FusionGPS to find a guy and milk him for info, the fact that they'd leave the ultimate selection up to their underlings doesn't whatsoever relate to whether or not they paid for the action. That's like saying because the mob boss's lieutenant is the one hiring the hitman that the boss has nothing to do with it.

LetterRip

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #113 on: March 07, 2018, 07:43:23 PM »
Why is it relevant whether he was handpicked?

Because Crunch was making that claim.

All of the evidence seems to suggest is that the DNC directed their lawyer to hire an opposition research firm, and their lawyer hired FusionGPS.  The stuff uncovered in their research is stuff likely to have been uncovered by other researchers.  Investigating Trump's Russian connections would be something done by any competent opposition researcher since Trump Jr. had made statements about the Trump's ties to Russian sourced financing.

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"In terms of high-end product influx into the US, Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets," Donald Trump Jr. said at a New York real-estate conference [in 2008]. "Say, in Dubai, and certainly with our project in SoHo, and anywhere in New York. We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia."

http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-jr-said-money-pouring-in-from-russia-2018-2


DonaldD

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #114 on: March 07, 2018, 09:05:25 PM »
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It's flat out known that the DNC and Clinton indirectly funded Fusion GPS through their lawyers
Almost, but not quite - the law firm representing the DNC and the Clinton campaign (not Clinton) was approached by Fusion GPS, so you could say that those two entities indirectly funded Fusion GPS.

But hiring Fusion GPS does not mean that they even indirectly paid Steele.  And not that it makes a difference, but there is zero evidence that either of those entities even knew of the existence of Steele or his relationship to the investigation.

The huge issue here is that the DNC hired a firm to do opposition research (the same firm hired by Republicans, earlier in the election cycle) and the biggest problem is that research uncovered so much bad information on the opposition that the researcher felt it necessary to approach the FBI with his findings. And that is what is unforgivable.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 09:07:48 PM by DonaldD »

DonaldD

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #115 on: December 18, 2018, 09:47:24 PM »
More on the dastardly Clinton Foundation and its illegal activities:

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/18/politics/trump-foundation-dissolve/index.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/politics-trump-foundation-dissolution-ny-1.4950304
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U.S. President Donald Trump's namesake charitable foundation has agreed to dissolve following a lawsuit by New York's attorney general claiming Trump misused the foundation to advance his 2016 presidential campaign and his businesses, the state attorney general announced Tuesday.

Barbara Underwood said the Trump Foundation's assets will be distributed to charities that will be vetted by her office. The deal must still be approved by a state judge.

"Our petition detailed a shocking pattern of illegality involving the Trump Foundation, including unlawful co-ordination with the Trump presidential campaign, repeated and wilful self-dealing, and much more," Underwood said in a statement.
Ummm... oops, my bad.

Crunch

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Re: Russia and US politics
« Reply #116 on: December 18, 2018, 11:17:33 PM »
Crunch,

do you have any source that suggests that someone on Clinton's campaign specifically knew who Steele was or that FusionGPS would hire him specifically?

If not - then your speculation seems highly unreasonable.

FusionGPS was and is a well known research firm with a great reputation for intelligence gathering both nationally and internationally and is regularly used by business and law firms when they want thorough research done on a variety of topics.

Steele himself

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British ex-spy Christopher Steele, who wrote the Democrat-financed anti-Trump dossier, said in a court case that he was hired by a Democratic law firm in preparation for Hillary Clinton challenging the results of the 2016 presidential election.

He said the law firm Perkins Coie wanted to be in a position to contest the results based on evidence he unearthed on the Trump campaign conspiring with Moscow on election interference.

His scenario is contained in a sealed Aug. 2 declaration in a defamation law suit brought by three Russian bankers in London. The trio’s American attorneys filed his answers Tuesday in a libel lawsuit in Washington against the investigative firm Fusion GPS, which handled the former British intelligence officer.