Author Topic: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime  (Read 15091 times)

velcro

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Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« on: June 25, 2018, 08:30:20 PM »
The White House said Democrats would "rather have open borders and rampant crime than work with the President to create solutions."

The President tweeted that "Democrats want open Borders, where anyone can come into our Country, and stay."

Here are the facts.

Democrats voted unanimously for the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act.  It passed 68-32 in the Senate in 2013, but was not considered by the House.

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It would have increased border security by adding up to 40,000 border patrol agents. It also would have advanced talent-based immigration through a points-based immigration system. New visas had been proposed in this legislation, including a visa for entrepreneurs and a W visa for lower skilled workers.[4] It also proposed new restrictions on H1B visa program to prevent its abuse and additional visas/green-cards for students with science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) degrees from U.S. institutions. The bill also included a $1.5 billion youth jobs program and repealed the Diversity Visa Lottery in favor of prospective legal immigrants who are already in the United States.
link

This is what Democrats proposed.  To call this "open borders" is a lie.  We stopped about 300,000 people trying to enter the country from Mexico in 2017.  To call that "open borders" is a lie, so just keeping the status quo is not support for open borders.

There is no evidence to say that Democrats want open borders.  There is no evidence that they would prefer open borders to working with the President. People might suspect that, but to use the official channels of the government to make that accusation is reprehensible.

As far as rampant crime, all the data says immigrants commit crime at lower rates than non-immigrants.
The National Academy of Sciences
National Bureau of Economic Research
CATO
New York Times.

There is no evidence, as far as I know, showing otherwise.

Wayward Son

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2018, 09:56:58 PM »
Ah, but you forget, Velcro, as Crunch pointed out in the other thread, it is felonious to try to make a living in this country as an illegal immigrant.  If you apply for a job, ask for Social Security, and a number of other required forms, you must lie on them, and such lying are felonies.  Our government requires people to commit one felony after another if they want to work here without the proper papers and legal standing.

So while the illegal immigrant community may have lower rates of robbery, rape, murder, and such, they have much higher rates of felonious lying.  And that is the real threat to our country.  Felonious lying is only allowed by members of the Trump Administration! ;)

velcro

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2018, 07:45:52 AM »
Sigh.  I guess you are right.  I will submit to the government. After all, it is ordained by God. ;D

TheDrake

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2018, 11:10:27 AM »
When people hear the word crime, they link it with violent crime. This is clearly the association Trump is making when he brings up MS-13 all the time. It is what Brietbart is doing when they feature articles on every instance of an illegal immigrant committing a violent crime.

I haven't heard either talk once about rampant forgery. And it takes two to make that stuff work - the immigrant isn't creating fake documentation on their own. They aren't paying themselves under the table. But the focus is on how these desperate people who only want to feed their families aren't following the rules, and that makes them hardened criminals.

Crunch

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2018, 06:50:17 PM »
Ah, but you forget, Velcro, as Crunch pointed out in the other thread, it is felonious to try to make a living in this country as an illegal immigrant.  If you apply for a job, ask for Social Security, and a number of other required forms, you must lie on them, and such lying are felonies.  Our government requires people to commit one felony after another if they want to work here without the proper papers and legal standing.

So while the illegal immigrant community may have lower rates of robbery, rape, murder, and such, they have much higher rates of felonious lying.  And that is the real threat to our country.  Felonious lying is only allowed by members of the Trump Administration! ;)

Always with the “myths”.  ;D

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In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the bloody 18th Street Gang in California is illegal (estimated membership: 20,000); police officers say the proportion is undoubtedly much greater

Texas, the DPS reports:
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Between June 1, 2011 and May 31, 2018, these 171,000 illegal aliens were charged with more than 265,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 495 homicide charges; 29,526 assault charges; 5,264 burglary charges; 33,637 drug charges; 350 kidnapping charges; 14,794 theft charges; 21,674 obstructing police charges; 1,537 robbery charges; 3,107 sexual assault charges; and 2,673 weapon charges. DPS criminal history records reflect those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 110,000 convictions including 219 homicide convictions; 12,244 assault convictions; 2,900 burglary convictions; 16,358 drug convictions; 144 kidnapping convictions; 6,642 theft convictions; 10,508 obstructing police convictions; 929 robbery convictions.

Believe whatever you want, the facts won’t change though.

TheDrake

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2018, 07:43:28 PM »
That sounded bad until I realized they are using a 7 year span? Why is that unless they want to make the numbers sound scary inflated? Crime is usually described using an annual basis.

In 2016, there were roughly 900 murder arrests (I can't find stats from DPS on charges, so that's a bit of a mess and hard to compare).

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That story also quoted Valdez, then Dallas County’s fourth-term sheriff, calling the law a political tool to attack vulnerable Texans. "Throughout history, we've had a vulnerable group to pick on," Valdez said. "Now it seems to be Hispanics," Valdez said.

Valdez further said that Texas Department of Public Safety numbers show that only 1.6 percent of crime is committed by unauthorized immigrants, according to the story.

1.6% - oh my what a terrible invasion, Texas is totally infested with MS-13 gang members! We're descending into a lawless collapse of civilization!

This is just another repackaging of the better safe than sorry One Bad Skittle argument. Even if you could magically deport every single one of them, you're not making the state materially safer.

Wayward Son

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2018, 02:18:26 AM »
You must love Heather McDonald, Crunch.

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Claim: 95% of Warrants for Murder Issued in Los Angeles are for Illegals

This appears to come from a 2005 testimony from Heather Mac Donald of the Manhattan Institute to the House of Representatives...
 
Assuming this statement from over a decade ago is still true, the meme leaves out a key word; outstanding. Outstanding warrants are different from all warrants, or all murders. They are warrants issued months or years prior, but the suspect hasn’t been arrested. It would make sense that illegal immigrants would make up a disproportionate amount of outstanding warrants, since they are harder to track, and are much more likely to flee the country to avoid arrest. There doesn’t appear to be any reliable statistics on current murder warrants, as LA county doesn’t break them down by immigration status.

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In April 2005, Heather Mac Donald, a Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, testified before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security, and Claims. On the issue of gang membership among illegal immigrants, she said:

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No one knows for certain the percentage of illegals in gangs, thanks in large part to sanctuary laws themselves. But various estimates exist: A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater...

Note, however, that this statement references a California Department of Justice study (not an FBI report), and that it describes only a single gang in Los Angeles County (the 18th Street Gang), the gang that likely has the highest membership rate of illegal aliens.

http://memepoliceman.com/bogus-facts-illegal-immigrants/

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/just-one-state-cost-illegals-los-angeles/



Crunch

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2018, 08:00:41 AM »
This is just another repackaging of the better safe than sorry One Bad Skittle argument. Even if you could magically deport every single one of them, you're not making the state materially safer.
Is illegal immigration really so important to you that the murder, rape, assault, kidnapping, etc, of thousands is worth it?  Remember when the cry was, “If even one life is saved...”?  Good times.

Would you apply this same fatal logic to gun control?

By preventing one type of illegal behavior, you save hundreds of lives, prevent thousands of sexual assaults, hundreds of thousands of crimes. Why would any moral person oppose stopping illegal behavior that leads to this?

Crunch

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2018, 08:01:20 AM »
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You must love Heather McDonald, Crunch.

Never heard if her. Changes nothing.

TheDrake

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2018, 09:07:11 AM »
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Would you apply this same fatal logic to gun control?

Actually, I would apply the same logic to illegal gun sales. I think they should be pursued more aggressively, I'd like to see all the money pouring into the Drug War redirected to tracking down felons obtaining weapons and enforcing existing gun law.

I don't love illegal immigration, I advocate for increased legal immigration and proper checks. I'm a strong advocate for e-verify (assuming they can make it work). I'd even appreciate a crackdown on homeowners paying people under the table - legal or illegal.

I might even be willing to pay for a useless wall. I think the people that are working in drug trades and other lucrative illegal ventures have lots of options to get in, whether through visas, Canadian borders, etc. They aren't swimming the Rio Grande, I suspect. Not to mention an abundant ability to recruit citizens of the United States into their ventures. Let's remember that MS-13 is homegrown in Los Angeles.

The problem is in overstating the issue to the point where everybody gets their hate on for immigration in general. This denies us an influx of young hard working people that our country needs to add drive and spur growth. Many of the people entering the US are fleeing MS-13 in their home countries.

There's a lot that the Office of Refugee Resettlement could do to get its act together. From WaPO:

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In 2014, ORR unwittingly placed a group of teens with human traffickers in Ohio, according to a federal indictment. The children were forced to work on an egg farm 12 hours a day, six or seven days a week, and their paychecks were confiscated. And in 2015, a whistleblower claimed juveniles were placed with sponsors with criminal records, including murder and child molestation.

They made improvements after that according to the article, but there are clearly some broken elements. More legal immigration would lead to more families coming together rather than the broad influx of unaccompanied minors that started after Obama's crackdown on adult crossings.

Should we have shut down Italian immigration because some of them were involved in La Cosa Nostra? Japanese because of the Yakuza? Russians because of русская мафия? Every country has criminals. Some will inevitably slip by, and some will be in communities where they are recruited for the first time. So we should just close our borders tight because any visitor or immigrant might commit some crime?

Wayward Son

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2018, 01:02:51 PM »
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You must love Heather McDonald, Crunch.

Never heard if her. Changes nothing.

True.

How about the fact that her numbers appear to be meaningless and don't show that illegal immigrants are a greater danger than native-born Americans? ;)

cherrypoptart

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2018, 11:51:42 PM »
Trump may be talking about the calls to abolish ICE altogether. I'd be very curious to know how that would work, exactly.

velcro

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2018, 09:33:13 AM »
Cherry,

He could mean that, except abolishing ICE does absolutely nothing on the border.  So, yes, Trump may be using the calls to abolish ICE as his justification for saying Democrats want open borders, but he would be wrong, and he would be proving that he has no clue what he is talking about.   

As far as abolishing ICE, it is largely a branding thing.  ICE should be like the police - law abiding people want to work with them.  But their reputation is so bad, very few people will.  If the tasks are redistributed, with the more draconian enforcement actions taken off the table, and the name changed, progress can be made.  I'm not saying that is right or wrong, just answering your question.

Crunch

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2018, 11:25:23 AM »
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You must love Heather McDonald, Crunch.

Never heard if her. Changes nothing.

True.

How about the fact that her numbers appear to be meaningless and don't show that illegal immigrants are a greater danger than native-born Americans? ;)

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Between June 1, 2011 and May 31, 2018, these 171,000 illegal aliens were charged with more than 265,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 495 homicide charges; 29,526 assault charges; 5,264 burglary charges; 33,637 drug charges; 350 kidnapping charges; 14,794 theft charges; 21,674 obstructing police charges; 1,537 robbery charges; 3,107 sexual assault charges; and 2,673 weapon charges. DPS criminal history records reflect those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 110,000 convictions including 219 homicide convictions; 12,244 assault convictions; 2,900 burglary convictions; 16,358 drug convictions; 144 kidnapping convictions; 6,642 theft convictions; 10,508 obstructing police convictions; 929 robbery convictions.

Go after whatever small piece of this you think you can use to structure the fallacy. Doesn’t change the hard numbers. Trying to stake out the position that a little rape and murder is ok is pretty bad. How much rape and murder is too much? ;)

Crunch

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2018, 11:27:12 AM »
  ICE should be like the police - law abiding people want to work with them.  But their reputation is so bad, very few people will.  If the tasks are redistributed, with the more draconian enforcement actions taken off the table, and the name changed, progress can be made.  I'm not saying that is right or wrong, just answering your question.
What makes you think people involved in criminal activity want to engage any law enforcement, no matter how nice they are? Criminals, you know, prefer to avoid capture.

velcro

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2018, 06:26:34 PM »
  ICE should be like the police - law abiding people want to work with them.  But their reputation is so bad, very few people will.  If the tasks are redistributed, with the more draconian enforcement actions taken off the table, and the name changed, progress can be made.  I'm not saying that is right or wrong, just answering your question.
What makes you think people involved in criminal activity want to engage any law enforcement, no matter how nice they are? Criminals, you know, prefer to avoid capture.

Here's what I actually said:
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law abiding people want to work with them [the police]

Apparently you misunderstood the point I was making.

Let me clarify even more.

If I see a crime in my neighborhood, it is generally in my best interest to cooperate with police.   This is a tenet of community policing - get the generally law abiding people to help you get the more serious criminals.
If the police have the reputation of harassing me  or my family for relatively minor issues, I am less likely to come to them with information about a serious crime.

Right now, ICE has a reputation for harassing people for relatively minor issues.  If they are trying to deport Dreamers at the same priority as MS13, which is the current perception, then they are not effective for a variety of reasons.


velcro

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2018, 01:03:08 PM »
The criminal investigation side of ICE wants to be spun off from ICE, for exactly the reasons I mentioned.

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A majority of ICE’s top criminal investigation agents are asking Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen to spin their division off from the agency.

In a letter sent last week, 19 special agents in charge at ICE’s Homeland Security Investigations unit said that ICE’s controversial detention and deportation policies have made it hard for them to conduct investigations into threats to national security, organized crime, narcotics smuggling and human trafficking.

“HSI’s investigations have been perceived as targeting undocumented aliens, instead of the transnational criminal organizations that facilitate cross border crimes impacting our communities and national security,” the special agents in charge wrote in the previously unreported letter.

They also wrote that “the perception of HSI’s investigative independence is unnecessarily impacted by the political nature” of ICE’s immigration enforcement. “Many jurisdictions continue to refuse to work with HSI because of a perceived linkage to the politics of civil immigration.”

So half of ICE wants to be separate from the immigration enforcement.  Not much different from dissolving ICE and reorganizing the functions, which is what some Democrats are calling for.  (Democrats are not calling for elimination of the immigration enforcement function, so please don't claim they are)

Seriati

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2018, 02:22:14 PM »
The White House said Democrats would "rather have open borders and rampant crime than work with the President to create solutions."

So is the "blatant" lie you reference in this title that you're claiming this is false?  What's outrageous to you about pointing out that Democrats have no interest in securing the border and deporting those in the country illegally?  that's literal truth.

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The President tweeted that "Democrats want open Borders, where anyone can come into our Country, and stay."

That tweet seems accurate to me.  I've yet to hear a Democratic plan for removing anyone that has come into the country illegally.  Isn't that the essence of what an open border means?  Or are you arguing against a strawman of some kind?

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Here are the facts.

Sort of. 

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Democrats voted unanimously for the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act.  It passed 68-32 in the Senate in 2013, but was not considered by the House.

Okay.  In 2013, Democrats passed an immigration reform that the House didn't consider, while Obama was the President.  Big whoop.  It provided for a path to citizenship of every illegal (ie amnesty) not just the Dreamers.  It provided for an incomplete border wall (700 miles on a 2000 mile border, and much of that replacement of existing fences - only half of which are designed to stop pedestrians).  Not to say it didn't do some good things, it included some forward looking measures to capture future illegal immigrants (like e-verify).

Pretty much, the Democratic dream legislation, make every illegal legal, pay some lip service to security.

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This is what Democrats proposed.  To call this "open borders" is a lie.

Well if you leave out the 1300 miles of border's without fence maybe you get there.  But I still think not, since you didn't acknowledge the literal amnesty it included, which again - repeat after me - is the essence of open borders. 

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We stopped about 300,000 people trying to enter the country from Mexico in 2017.  To call that "open borders" is a lie, so just keeping the status quo is not support for open borders.

Lol, I see, you are arguing the strawman.  You think open borders means no security at all.  Open borders, also included ineffective security and the knowledge that every so often everyone illegal will be made legal by legislation.  Pretty much, it's easy to get here, if not on your first try on a later one, and eventually if you hide from us long enough you get to skip the legal immigration system.

And you wonder why Crunch would think every illegal is going to be required to commit other crimes to stay in the country. 

How about, instead of just adding e-verify for jobs, you add it for every public service as well.  Otherwise, you already know the truth, you have no interest in deporting anyone, which means you really do advocate open borders.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2018, 09:49:43 PM »
Maybe the sticking point is the definition of open borders. Perhaps Democrats insist they aren't for open borders because they still want Americans on the border watching the people come in and trying to stop those running drugs or tracking in sex slaves or rolling across the border in tanks and such but the Republicans define open borders as letting mass migration of immigrants take place without any noticeable limits except the limits the immigrants place on themselves as far as how many want to make the trip to our border and into our country.

Fenring

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2018, 12:22:04 AM »
Maybe the sticking point is the definition of open borders. Perhaps Democrats insist they aren't for open borders because they still want Americans on the border watching the people come in and trying to stop those running drugs or tracking in sex slaves or rolling across the border in tanks and such but the Republicans define open borders as letting mass migration of immigrants take place without any noticeable limits except the limits the immigrants place on themselves as far as how many want to make the trip to our border and into our country.

This may be a reasonable explanation for the disagreement in terms. I do agree with Seriati that it seems the plan thus far has been to tolerate certain amounts of illegal immigration but not to allow it to go much further. That doesn't mean "zero enforcement" but it does mean they have no intention of reigning in the probably significant amount of illegal immigration that does happen. It seems illogical to me to accept significant amounts of such activity, and if it *is* going to be accepted, then allowing it should become official policy rather than unofficial policy.

I also think there's some kind of weird logic going on when the "tearing apart families" argument is made against deportation. Is there a numerical term attached to when it's "cruel" versus when it's "not cruel" to send people back to the country they came from? I'll give a few scenarios to explain what I mean:

1) A family comes through Mexico to the U.S. and is caught immediately by border security. They are processed quickly and sent back.
2) A family comes through Mexico, is caught immediately, but before they are processed they escape and vanish into the country. They are re-caught in 6 months, at which time they're sent back.
3) A family comes through Mexico, isn't caught immediately but is tracked down in 6 months, at which time they're sent back.
4) A family comes through Mexico, isn't caught immediately, but is caught 3 years later, at which time they're sent back.
5) A family comes through Mexico, isn't caught immediately, but one of them is caught 10 years later and is sent back.

Sticking within these 5 (not exhaustive) cases, let's decide which is or isn't "cruel". I think most would agree that 1 & 2 aren't cruel at all. Or at least, if liberals and Democrats are telling the truth, they'd be obliged to say that 1 & 2 are the law being enforced, fair and square. (3) begins to get into the territory of a person or family beginning to make a life for themselves. They have laid down some minor roots, maybe established a reliable source of illegal income, made a few friends. Is it cruel to deport one or more members of this family at this juncture? If it isn't, then does that mean the law is only applicable for a few months, at which time they 'get out of jail free' and have "made it"? And if it isn't cruel, then we must surely discount the relevance of those ties they've made thus far and conclude that they have no business being in the U.S. (4) is similar to (3), except more roots have been laid down and they're perhaps now "used to" living in the U.S. Similar questions apply, except now the issue is whether the law shouldn't apply any more after 3 years since it would be cruel to remove them from the life they've begun to get used to.

The last case is the hardest - or is it? After this much time there's no doubt been time to have children who have now been born and raised in the U.S. entirely. Now if the father or mother is caught, is it cruel to separate them from their family? They've surely been here a long time, and consider the U.S. by now to be their home. What about this case? But now let's backtrack quickly and change the numbers: what if the children were had within a year of stealing into the country? Is the 10 years what was relevant, or the existence of the children? And what about 10 years but without children? In the case of the children, does that mean that having children is a shield from the law? And if it's the time, does that mean that anyone who's successfully avoided being caught for X+ years (where X is some arbitrary number) that they now have unofficial amnesty? And if that's going to be unofficial policy, why not make it official policy as well so they can start paying taxes?

My point in all of this is I find the appeal to emotion on this subject quite understandable, and yet when inspected closely does the argument retain coherence?

I'll add one more point, if I may: I find it most troubling to focus entirely on the issue of illegal immigration without giving attention to the issue of what's become of Mexico. That nation has been held down at every turn, and I believe that through an intentional series of policies and unofficial strategies it's been made to be a drug-smuggling cesspool that seems unable to recover. And it's not just that there was a one-time event creating that infrastructure and they've been in a bad cycle ever since. No: active forces to this day within the U.S. keep pushing them down and propping up the cartels. Anyone seen the film Traffic? I hear the events as depicted are scarily accurate. Anyone hear about the news story of a bunch of DEA agents caught as a party put on by cartel bosses, featuring cocaine and hookers? There are other drug-oriented things I could bring up but this isn't the place. My point is that not only has Mexico been turned into a cartel paradise but that this was intentional. I can't entirely take seriously complaining about people wanting to leave Mexico, or those who want to go through Mexico to get to the U.S. (implying that Mexico itself is no great shakes) when the U.S. agencies and other parties making all of this happen get a free pass. I would fully support tightening border security, so long as it's accompanied by steps to make Mexico a better place and to remove drug affiliations from U.S. agencies. The internal corruption is much worse of a problem than is the illegal immigration, in my opinion.

Wayward Son

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2018, 10:13:09 AM »
Maybe the sticking point is the definition of open borders. Perhaps Democrats insist they aren't for open borders because they still want Americans on the border watching the people come in and trying to stop those running drugs or tracking in sex slaves or rolling across the border in tanks and such but the Republicans define open borders as letting mass migration of immigrants take place without any noticeable limits except the limits the immigrants place on themselves as far as how many want to make the trip to our border and into our country.

Cherry, both Republicans and Democrats believe in both those definitions.  I don't see your point.  ???

Wayward Son

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2018, 10:32:39 AM »
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You must love Heather McDonald, Crunch.

Never heard if her. Changes nothing.

True.

How about the fact that her numbers appear to be meaningless and don't show that illegal immigrants are a greater danger than native-born Americans? ;)

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Between June 1, 2011 and May 31, 2018, these 171,000 illegal aliens were charged with more than 265,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 495 homicide charges; 29,526 assault charges; 5,264 burglary charges; 33,637 drug charges; 350 kidnapping charges; 14,794 theft charges; 21,674 obstructing police charges; 1,537 robbery charges; 3,107 sexual assault charges; and 2,673 weapon charges. DPS criminal history records reflect those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 110,000 convictions including 219 homicide convictions; 12,244 assault convictions; 2,900 burglary convictions; 16,358 drug convictions; 144 kidnapping convictions; 6,642 theft convictions; 10,508 obstructing police convictions; 929 robbery convictions.

Go after whatever small piece of this you think you can use to structure the fallacy. Doesn’t change the hard numbers. Trying to stake out the position that a little rape and murder is ok is pretty bad. How much rape and murder is too much? ;)

Those are some pretty impressive numbers, Crunch.  But how about some more numbers?

What are the numbers of these crimes per year, rather than over seven years?  Why did only 44 percent of the arrests for homicide lead to convictions?  Only 41 percent of the  kidnapping charges?  Why the low conviction rates?  Is it different from that of the general population?  If so, why?

How do those numbers compare to Texas' legal population?  Is the rate significantly higher or lower?

How many were for illegal immigrants who have lived in the U.S. for more than 6 months, verses those who recently crossed the border?  How many were for those associated with a gang, especially a drug gang?  What percentage of illegal immigrants are associated with gangs?  Should we punish those who aren't associated with gangs for the actions of those who are?  Does you answer apply to other subjects, like guns?

How many of these immigrants were crossed the border with children?  Would our resources be better used targeting those more likely to commit such crimes?

And why haven't you asked these questions?  Don't you think the answers relevant?  Aren't you worried that you may be being manipulated by a President who thinks you can only understand him if he speaks to you like a fourth-grader, and thinks that you don't think about subjects very deeply?

And did you notice that the numbers still didn't answer my question about the relative danger of illegal immigrants?

The numbers are nice, but they really don't tell a complete story.

TheDrake

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2018, 10:51:03 AM »
As for open borders - there is only one real definition. It applies to the states of the EU, and to the individual states of the United States. No one ever asks anyone for a passport, freight or vehicles can be searched for agricultural or tax reasons, and there certainly aren't people trying to round up anybody from the state you have an open border with.

A truly closed border would be like NK, hardly anyone in or out.

Everything else is a discussion about a functional border and how easy or hard it is to cross under a myriad of circumstances.

velcro

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2018, 01:22:57 PM »
The OP said Trump lied about how Democrats feel about open borders.  We are having a discussion about what open borders means, but the only relevant definition is the one provided by Trump.  If he said open borders means amnesty, and Democrats are in favor of amnesty, then he told the truth.

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The President tweeted that "Democrats want open Borders, where anyone can come into our Country, and stay."

Open Borders, where anyone can come into our Country, and stay.

That means nobody ever would be turned back for any reason, and nobody would ever be deported.
Find me two elected Democrats who are on record saying that, I will concede that the President technically did not lie.

Otherwise, all the semantics and linguistic distortions are just attempts to distract.

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I've yet to hear a Democratic plan for removing anyone that has come into the country illegally.

Try googling "democratic proposals for immigration reform".  The first hit I got was this:

https://www.democrats.org/issues/immigration-reform

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Democrats will continue to work toward comprehensive immigration reform that fixes our nation’s broken immigration system, improves border security, prioritizes enforcement so we are targeting criminals - not families, keeps families together, and strengthens our economy.

So even if you find those notional two Democrats, the official Democratic position is crystal clear: no open borders.  Period.

But to answer the question: Prioritizing enforcement for criminals, not dreamers. Crystal clear.Removing people who came into the country illegally.

It's possible that some people who refuse to see the plain, clear facts, will use distortions, false definitions, or whataboutism to deny what is right here in plain text.

Democrats do not want open borders.
Democrats want dangerous illegal immigrants removed immediately. 

Indisputable facts. Very, very easy to find, if you care about the truth.

Seriati

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2018, 01:34:55 PM »
Very, very easy to find that your source and your link don't mention anything about removing non "dangerous criminal aliens."   So is being in the country illegally grounds for removal without any other crime involved?

You literally just showed that Democrats are not providing a plan for deporting illegal aliens.


TheDrake

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2018, 02:24:26 PM »
Anyone claiming asylum is given the right for their case to be heard, according to many Democrats. It is considered a right under international law, etc, but to some conservatives that mean anyone gets in, anyone gets to be released to disappear into the population. They feel that it is so easy to do this, that it is tantamount to an open border.

That's a strong enough basis to avoid calling this an outright lie and rather more a characterization.

TheDeamon

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2018, 02:37:40 PM »
The criminal investigation side of ICE wants to be spun off from ICE, for exactly the reasons I mentioned.

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A majority of ICE’s top criminal investigation agents are asking Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen to spin their division off from the agency.

In a letter sent last week, 19 special agents in charge at ICE’s Homeland Security Investigations unit said that ICE’s controversial detention and deportation policies have made it hard for them to conduct investigations into threats to national security, organized crime, narcotics smuggling and human trafficking.

“HSI’s investigations have been perceived as targeting undocumented aliens, instead of the transnational criminal organizations that facilitate cross border crimes impacting our communities and national security,” the special agents in charge wrote in the previously unreported letter.

They also wrote that “the perception of HSI’s investigative independence is unnecessarily impacted by the political nature” of ICE’s immigration enforcement. “Many jurisdictions continue to refuse to work with HSI because of a perceived linkage to the politics of civil immigration.”

So half of ICE wants to be separate from the immigration enforcement.  Not much different from dissolving ICE and reorganizing the functions, which is what some Democrats are calling for.  (Democrats are not calling for elimination of the immigration enforcement function, so please don't claim they are)

So basicaly a rollback to February 2003 when INS and Customs were two related, but very different entities. I actually would be okay with Customs becoming it's own thing apart from Immigration. But at the same time, you ARE talking about very closely related functions with a very great deal of overlap. In particular, it also raises questions specific to the Border Patrol as well. Are they Customs, Immigration, both, or something else?

Some of this comes back to the eleventy bajillion government Agencies with bright "You shall not pass" lines drawn around their particular and specific jurisdictions. That is something that should be overhauled as well.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 02:39:44 PM by TheDeamon »

Seriati

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2018, 03:28:02 PM »
Anyone claiming asylum is given the right for their case to be heard, according to many Democrats.

That's not just a Democratic principal.  Asylum is an important body of law, that everyone should take very seriously.  It's fundamentally part of our duty as world citizens.

However, it's not a "loop hole" and it should not be used as one.  Deliberately coaching people that have no reasonable asylum claim to "claim asylum" is deliberately frustrating how our law is intended to work.  Ignoring international law on asylum that requires non-Mexicans transitioning through Mexico to seek asylum there also is troubling.

Our standard for asylum can't be that its nicer living in the US.

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It is considered a right under international law, etc, but to some conservatives that mean anyone gets in, anyone gets to be released to disappear into the population. They feel that it is so easy to do this, that it is tantamount to an open border.

Well that's kind of how it's been operated, and immigration activists have been deliberately coaching immigrants on how to use the system to delay deportation, even where its warranted.

This trend line is what's caused much of the issue with the idea of asylum abuse.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/asylum-applications

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That's a strong enough basis to avoid calling this an outright lie and rather more a characterization.

I give most people the benefit of the doubt, Velcro, however, only gets what he gives (ie nothing).

Wayward Son

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2018, 04:06:50 PM »
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Ignoring international law on asylum that requires non-Mexicans transitioning through Mexico to seek asylum there also is troubling.

AFAIK, there is no such "law."  The only thing I heard about was Article 31of the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, which made it illegal to charge people who have fled across a border to a neighboring country to seek asylum from being charged with illegal crossing if they present themselves to the authorities asking for asylum.

Which is a fine law, but not the same as requiring people to seek asylum in the first country they cross into, or requiring those countries to charge them with illegal crossing if they don't present themselves to authorities.

Seriati

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2018, 04:44:29 PM »
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Ignoring international law on asylum that requires non-Mexicans transitioning through Mexico to seek asylum there also is troubling.

AFAIK, there is no such "law."

You know what, you're right.  I overstated the case.

International law is a misnomer, all law is national.  In this case the 1951 convention's language does say that a refugee had to come directly from the nation in which they were in danger.  Take a look at part B here, where the UNHRC interprets that and notes specifically how this can (and has) been interpretted to require asylum in the first safe country.

http://www.unhcr.org/en-us/excom/scip/3ae68ccec/background-note-safe-country-concept-refugee-status.html

Of course, that's not the only possible interpretation.  The EU actually doubled down on it and made it express.  In any event, it's certainly consistent with International Law to require Mexico do its part on this point.

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Which is a fine law, but not the same as requiring people to seek asylum in the first country they cross into, or requiring those countries to charge them with illegal crossing if they don't present themselves to authorities.

In fact, they are required to present themselves to the authorities under the convention.  The convention prevents the illegal crossing charge in certain circumstances.  Failing to present yourselves to the authorities and failing to follow its laws are both violations of the convention.

velcro

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2018, 05:15:32 PM »
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Very, very easy to find that your source and your link don't mention anything about removing non "dangerous criminal aliens."   So is being in the country illegally grounds for removal without any other crime involved?

You literally just showed that Democrats are not providing a plan for deporting illegal aliens.

As you well know, you said
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I've yet to hear a Democratic plan for removing anyone that has come into the country illegally.

Not everyone, not every single illegal alien, but anyone.  One single criminal deported would meet that criteria.

Now the term is ambiguous.  It could mean everyone, in that any person that is here illegally should be removed.  Its a very roundabout interpretation, but given you just admitted you overstated the case, i am giving you the benefit of the doubt.  So as long as Democrats don't have a plan for removing every single illegal alien, they are for open borders.

Show me the Republican plan for removing "anyone" that has come into the country illegally.  All 11 million.  Immediately.  Show me the plan.  If you can't, then Republicans are just as much in favor of open borders as Democrats.

Or, revert to the clear definition, in which case your statement is demonstrably fals

Fenring

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2018, 05:23:32 PM »
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You literally just showed that Democrats are not providing a plan for deporting illegal aliens.

As you well know, you said
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I've yet to hear a Democratic plan for removing anyone that has come into the country illegally.

Not everyone, not every single illegal alien, but anyone.  One single criminal deported would meet that criteria.

Now the term is ambiguous.  It could mean everyone, in that any person that is here illegally should be removed.  Its a very roundabout interpretation, but given you just admitted you overstated the case, i am giving you the benefit of the doubt.  So as long as Democrats don't have a plan for removing every single illegal alien, they are for open borders.

Obviously he meant every type of illegal alien, not every single individual.

velcro

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2018, 06:36:47 PM »
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Obviously he meant every type of illegal alien, not every single individual.

The Democratic plan prioritizes enforcement so we are targeting criminals - not families, .  It does not ignore families.

We can go down this rabbit hole, but reasonable people would agree that the statement "Democrats do not have a plan for removing anyone that has come into the country illegally" is not true.

Anyone claiming asylum is given the right for their case to be heard, according to many Democrats. It is considered a right under international law, etc, but to some conservatives that mean anyone gets in, anyone gets to be released to disappear into the population. They feel that it is so easy to do this, that it is tantamount to an open border.

That's a strong enough basis to avoid calling this an outright lie and rather more a characterization.


You are putting words in to Trump's mouth that he did not say or imply.  He made it clear what open borders are to him, and the facts do not support the fact that Democrats want open borders, based on his definition.

Just because some conservatives believe, or feel, or think something is tantamount to does not make it so.  If Trump believes that, then, OK, he did not lie in the technical sense. He is just completely ignorant of critical immigration policies and laws, but nonetheless feels compelled to run the government based on ignorance.  You pick, but it is one or the other.

yossarian22c

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2018, 08:14:26 PM »
Democrats must hate winning. Instead of letting Trump continue to get horrible press for separating families and now ineptly trying to reunite them many Democrats are out calling for ICE to be abolished. Its almost like they couldn't let Trump have the market on stupid policy ideas. They just happened to pick one that will help rally Trump's base. How can professional politicians be so inept, maybe they are just amping up the crowds in their super safe districts but this is going to be a disastrous idea in the swing/leaning red districts they are trying to pick up.

TheDeamon

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2018, 09:47:00 PM »
Democrats must hate winning. Instead of letting Trump continue to get horrible press for separating families and now ineptly trying to reunite them many Democrats are out calling for ICE to be abolished. Its almost like they couldn't let Trump have the market on stupid policy ideas. They just happened to pick one that will help rally Trump's base. How can professional politicians be so inept, maybe they are just amping up the crowds in their super safe districts but this is going to be a disastrous idea in the swing/leaning red districts they are trying to pick up.

It's pretty much what I've been predicting since shortly Trump won in 2016. The Democrats are likely to pick campaign issues that resonate well with Democrats in Demoratic Districts, but also has the knock-on effect of getting Conservatives/Conservative Leaning Moderates to show up and vote--against the Dems. Something they would otherwise have been a little less inclined to do in a Presidential Mid-Term where they control the White House and both congressional houses. Meaning the grand strategy of the DNC is going to "get out the vote" in the wrong districts(in districts they would win anyhow), in the wrong way(by getting people from the opposing party to vote in districts the Dems might have won if those people remained at home).

The EC outcome in 2016 already illustrated this. I'm still inclined to expect a repeat of that to play out in the 2018 midterm. Republicans win a (near) majority of House Seats, and Democrats win the aggregate vote tally across all congressional districts(which also means "generic polling" will consistently favor the Dems).

The wild cards obviously being Gerrymandering in every state, and the fact that House seating is not WTA statewide. So the structure of the districting within each individual state is going to play a significant role in determining how the balance of districts settle out. But at the same time, because it's district level, Republicans get "EC proxies" from states they'd never get an actual Electoral College vote in, such as California and New York(but the reverse will also apply for the Democrats).

The Senate Map also presents challenges for the Democrats, I'll be surprised if the Democrats win the Senate barring a major even upsetting the proverbial apple cart between now and November.

I can still see Democrat control of the House potentially happening. Just because of the nature of the congressional districts making it almost a pipe dream to the the Republicans have a decent chance of retaining a majority. However, I do think the aggregate number, as meaningless as it is, is going to be skewed very heavily in favor of the Democrats, but the final tally of House Seats will not reflect that. I'm fully expecting at least a million more votes for both the Democratic House and Senate Candidates (respectively) to be cast than is cast in favor of the Republicans. It just happens to be the nature of the beast in regards to where the various borders are drawn for those seats and where their respective voting populations are.

And then its going to be "fun" to watch Anti-Trump flip their lids over that undemocratic outcome(at least in regards to the Senate).

cherrypoptart

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2018, 09:52:11 PM »
Trump understands that if anyone can come to America claiming asylum based on gang violence in their home country and they get the right to have that asylum case heard in court and can stay for over a year until it's heard then that is effectively an open border. And he's right. That's exactly what it is. Almost every country in the world has gangs. Even Japan has the Yakuza. Anyone can say they are afraid of gang violence. People could say that in dozens of cities across America. So if hundreds of thousands or millions or eventually even tens of millions of people come in with that claim, a true one if that's the standard, a claim of fear of gang violence which entitles them to at least a year of residency during which they can work and have more children who will be instant American citizens, then we effectively have an open border. Sure, like I said we'll stop tanks from rolling across and go after drug runners and terrorists, but anyone else who wasn't a criminal in their own country can just walk up to the border patrol, ask for help and asylum based on fear of gang violence, a true claim for almost all of them, and they are in to stay. That's an open border. And that's exactly what Democrats are calling for, no real limits to immigration. And that's what Trump is fighting against, first off by changing the rules so that gang violence isn't a valid reason for asylum. Saying that it is results in what is for all intents and purposes an open border.

And that's just counting the people who legitimately fear gang violence. Not even counting the scammers.

https://nypost.com/2018/07/04/scams-are-overwhelming-the-us-asylum-system/
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 10:02:22 PM by cherrypoptart »

yossarian22c

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2018, 07:30:49 PM »
The EC outcome in 2016 already illustrated this. I'm still inclined to expect a repeat of that to play out in the 2018 midterm. Republicans win a (near) majority of House Seats, and Democrats win the aggregate vote tally across all congressional districts(which also means "generic polling" will consistently favor the Dems).

The wild cards obviously being Gerrymandering in every state, and the fact that House seating is not WTA statewide. So the structure of the districting within each individual state is going to play a significant role in determining how the balance of districts settle out. But at the same time, because it's district level, Republicans get "EC proxies" from states they'd never get an actual Electoral College vote in, such as California and New York(but the reverse will also apply for the Democrats).

The last time I saw an analysis of the districts I think it was predicting Ds need a +6/7 nationally to get a majority in the house. More of the purpleish states were redistricted by Rs in 2010 leading to a substantial advantage in the house.

Greg Davidson

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2018, 11:30:17 PM »
Health care and the Republican tax bill that gave a trillion dollars to millionaires are two issues that strongly influence Democrats and Independents. If the Democrats can stick to those messages, they will do well.

There is an additional factor above and beyond gerrymandering that helps Republicans - they have also been successful in voter suppression, making it more difficult for traditionally Democratic-leaning voters to vote.

Senate is almost impossible for the Democrats to win this year; winning 53% pf the votes cast for the House of Representatives (a 6% advantage over the Republicans) is maybe a 70% likelihood.  And I can see it being very plausible that President Trump would start a war in October to influence the election (evidently he was pushing an invasion of Venezuela last September https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/04/politics/donald-trump-venezuela-invasion/index.html, he doesn't see implications as much of a barrier)

Wayward Son

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2018, 10:34:58 AM »
Yeah, I suspect a war before the midterms is more likely than the Democrats taking over the Senate, although my money's on Iran rather than Venezuela.  An Iranian war would have the added benefit of enhancing Russia's influence in the Middle East, after they come to Iran's defense. :)

Although Trump may decide to hold off until before the 2020 elections.  After all, what does he care about Congress? ;)

velcro

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Re: Blatant Lies About Open Borders and Rampant Crime
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2018, 01:04:19 PM »
Quote
Trump understands that if anyone can come to America claiming asylum based on gang violence in their home country and they get the right to have that asylum case heard in court and can stay for over a year until it's heard then that is effectively an open border.

Nope. An open border is when anyone can come in, without worries of being deported.  That is literally Trump's definition.
What you describe is different.

If I said "anyone can get into the movies for free", that is not true.  Some people can sneak in the back, but most of them get caught.  The fact that a few people get in without paying does not mean the movies are free.

But if you insist on your false definition, then Republicans also want "open borders".  If they didn't they would have changed the laws by now.  But they haven't.  They can say what they want, but their actions prove that they want "open borders", at least by your definition.