Corey Booker and Kavanaugh Hearing

[TheDrake]

There is a difference between outrage and petulence.

[Crunch]

It was nothing but a performance calculated to energize his base and get them out to vote. It was ugly and his followers should demand better. 

I call BS. Trump doesn't do this stuff out of calculation. He just reacts and rants involuntarily. Kind of like the Incredible Hulk, he gets mad and it just sort of happens.

The consistently effective way he does this, and that it works, should disabuse you of that notion. Watch now how Graham and other Republicans begin to utilize this tactic to similar effect. Finally fighting back is a calculated tactic and it’s working.

Many of you will *hate* living by your own rules now. I’m not a fan of where this goes but the rules are the rules.

[TheDeamon]

Looks like Avenatti is in hot water, with NBC and possibly the Justice Department for his antics in the Kavanaugh hearings circus.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/new-questions-raised-about-avenatti-claims-regarding-kavanaugh-n924596

[Crunch]

Has anyone checked on Ford? I don’t think she’s been seen for a few weeks, she’s disappeared. Man, she may be the ultimate example of being used and discarded once her utility was gone.

[D.W.]

Because you would think someone in her position wants to stay in the spotlight?   

[rightleft22]

My read on Ford is that she authentically felt she had to come forward even though she did not want to be in the spotlight.
She may have been used by all involved however I suspect for her it was just something she had to do in order to be true to herself.
I would not have done it but I'm a coward.. or realist.   Nothing she did was going to change anything... yep I'm a coward

[Crunch]

Because you would think someone in her position wants to stay in the spotlight?   

Because She wanted specifically to stay out of the spotlight. She asked for anonymity. But that wasn’t useful so Feinstein forced her into it, usiung her up and throwing her away when Ford proved no longer useful.

My guess is that most women would never want to be in that spotlight. Moral of the story, don’t trust democrats.

[Crunch]

Karma can be a bitch. 

Attorneys representing the interests of President Trump in the case of Gifford v. Trump previously won a dismissal of all claims against Mr. Trump. As a consequence the court ordered the plaintiff “Stormy Daniels” and her creepy porn lawyer, Michael Avenatti, to reimburse Donald Trump’s legal team for all expenses incurred during their defense of the frivolous lawsuit.
The lawyers representing Mr. Trump filed a motion with the court and now submit a claim for $341,559.50 for legal costs incurred (full pdf below). The court will also likely impose monetary sanctions upon CPL Avenatti.

[cherrypoptart]

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/nov/3/another-kavanaugh-accuser-admits-fabricating-rape-/

"One of Justice Brett M. Kavanaugh’s accusers admitted this week that she made up her lurid tale of a backseat car rape, saying it “was a tactic” to try to derail the judge’s confirmation to the Supreme Court."

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just because one lady lied and now admits it doesn't mean that he didn't rape a bunch of other women.

[LetterRip]

"One of Justice Brett M. Kavanaugh’s accusers admitted this week that she made up her lurid tale of a backseat car rape, saying it “was a tactic” to try to derail the judge’s confirmation to the Supreme Court."

That seems mistaken.  There was a letter sent to the committee by someone else anonymously.  When the anonymous author failed to step forward, she claimed that she had was the 'Jane Doe' who sent the letter.  We have no idea if the letter itself was made up, only that it didn't originate with her.  I don't think that she provided a 'lurid tale of backseat car rape' (I can't find any source that suggests she did) - rather there was one in the letter sent to the committee; and she claimed credit for the letter - but didn't provide any other elaboration, etc.

Also she can't have committed obstruction of justice or obstruction of a criminal investigation as far as I can tell (unless there was/is an criminal investigation into Kavanaugh - it seems that the only investigation was civil).  Also AFAIK she didn't lie to the FBI.  She could perhaps be charged with contempt of congress.

[Seriati]

LR, why do you think that is "mistaken" the woman in question, lived in Kentucky, was decades older than Kavanaugh, was a left-wing activist, admitted it wasn't her and said she claimed it was because the issue needed more attention.  It was clearly a tactic to try and derail the confirmation, are you objecting to the idea that she "made it up"?  Honestly, you should denounce this woman.  There should be no room - at all - for lying in these processes.

I have no idea what the charge could be.  It seems like everyone but Ford owes Kavanaugh an apology for this process.

[LetterRip]

LR, why do you think that is "mistaken" the woman in question, lived in Kentucky, was decades older than Kavanaugh, was a left-wing activist, admitted it wasn't her and said she claimed it was because the issue needed more attention.

She didn't make any accussations herself, she just falsely identified herself as the author of a letter sent to the committee.  The article falsely states that she made accussations, instead she falsely took credit for someone elses accussations.

It was clearly a tactic to try and derail the confirmation, are you objecting to the idea that she "made it up"?

What she made up was her claim to be the author of a letter, sent by someone else.  The accussation which she was proclaiming authorship of, we have no idea what it's provenance is.  What the article was proclaiming was that she was the author of the accussations, and that she is admitting that the accussations are false.  What she is actually admitting is that she isn't the author of the accussations.  Those are dramatically different things.

She did indeed falsely claim authorship.  But that isn't what the article was accussing her of.

Honestly, you should denounce this woman.  There should be no room - at all - for lying in these processes.

Please reread what I wrote and what the paper wrote.  The paper appears to dramatically have misreported the issue.  I fully agree that there is no room for lying.  Her false claim of authorship is reprehensible.  It is also reprehensible to suggest that she did something she didn't.  A false claim of authorship is quite different from filing a false claim.  We have no idea if the letter that was sent to the committee was legitimate, all we know is that she isn't the author of it.

I have no idea what the charge could be.

Fair enough.

  It seems like everyone but Ford owes Kavanaugh an apology for this process.

I think she is a terrible person for falsely claiming authorship and she should have whatever charges are reasonable brought against her.  There doesn't seem anything to suggest that Kavanaugh is owed an apology except by this woman.

If it is shown that the actual allegations made against him were false, then those making the allegations absolutely own him an apology.

[TheDrake]

Proper breakdown from a more reputable outlet than the failing Washington Times

Saying that "she made up her lurid tale" fails the most basic of fact checking. She never made up a tale of any kind, lurid or otherwise. Those details are somewhat distracting however, it does show clearly that some of those involved in making or backing accusations were entirely dishonest.

[Crunch]

The Democrat’s champion for women has shown his true self:

Avenatti was formally charged with felony domestic violence and his bail was set at $50,000, LAPD Officer Rosario Herrera told Fox News.

Is anyone really surprised? Avenatti is actually a perfect symbol for Democrats.

[LetterRip]

Avenatti is alleging it is a false allegation by those acting on behalf of Jacob Wohl - the individual who conspired to have false allegations made against Mueller.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/michael-avenatti-appears-blame-jacob-wohl-domestic-violence-arrest-n936571

Given that Mr Wohl has engaged in such behavior previously, it is plausible that that is the case.

https://www.businessinsider.com/jack-burkman-jacob-wohl-mueller-sexual-misconduct-scheme-legal-implications-2018-10

Of course if Mr. Avenatti has engaged in such behavior then he should certainly be punished.

[Seriati]

LR, why do you think that is "mistaken" the woman in question, lived in Kentucky, was decades older than Kavanaugh, was a left-wing activist, admitted it wasn't her and said she claimed it was because the issue needed more attention.

She didn't make any accussations herself, she just falsely identified herself as the author of a letter sent to the committee.  The article falsely states that she made accussations, instead she falsely took credit for someone elses accussations.

And?  I never disputed whether she wrote the letter - she didn't.  Though I think  you're engaging in some mental shenanigans to claim she didn't make accusations when she took credit for the letter.

It was clearly a tactic to try and derail the confirmation, are you objecting to the idea that she "made it up"?

What she made up was her claim to be the author of a letter, sent by someone else.  The accussation which she was proclaiming authorship of, we have no idea what it's provenance is.  What the article was proclaiming was that she was the author of the accussations, and that she is admitting that the accussations are false.  What she is actually admitting is that she isn't the author of the accussations.  Those are dramatically different things.

Honestly, most every article I saw was clear that she claimed authorship of a letter she did not write.  That's a fact that only became evident because the Senate was able to track her down "from her unique name" which I read to mean she didn't give contact information, but rather just tried to attach a name to increase the credibility.  I don't see enough of a difference in what she did to claim she didn't make an accusation.

I agree based on the fact that she didn't write the letter she's in no position to discredit the allegations.  The allegations are discredited by being written on an anonymous basis in the first place, which is why she was trying to make it appear more credible. 

She did indeed falsely claim authorship.  But that isn't what the article was accussing her of.

Are you fixated on a single article?  It was clear in the letter from the committee and in most articles that she falsely claimed to have written a letter that was already in the record.

I think she is a terrible person for falsely claiming authorship and she should have whatever charges are reasonable brought against her.  There doesn't seem anything to suggest that Kavanaugh is owed an apology except by this woman.

I disagree.  Most have made horrid accusations against him, even on this board people have called him a rapist, without any reasonable basis for those claims.  They've lied about him.  He's owed an apology.

The Senators dragged him through the mud for politics and nothing else.

[Seriati]

Avenatti is alleging it is a false allegation by those acting on behalf of Jacob Wohl - the individual who conspired to have false allegations made against Mueller.

Is it false then that he told the police, "She hit me first"?  If that was said, then the idea that this is somekind of false allegation has no merit.

I don't particularly like Avenatti, but he is entitled to a presumption of innocence.

[scifibum]

I don't like Avenatti either, and I think Jacob Wohl is a pathetic person who would try to frame him if he thought he could, but my money right now is on Avenatti getting into some kind of altercation with a woman who is not his wife, which resulted in her being hurt in some way. He's going to mount a defense that he didn't strike her and the injury was unintentional. (Pushed her away in self defense and she fell into a door, for instance.)

Wohl is probably just trolling this time, and Avenatti is taking advantage of that for the short term cover it gives him with supporters. 

Just my general feeling.

[Seriati]

So on point about Avenatti coverage, and I admit I love stories that focus on measurables when they talk about media reporting.  https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/media-watchdogs-group-accuses-cnn-msnbc-of-downplaying-avenatti-arrest

Just to add some of my own context, when I first heard about the story and went to CNN's website, the only Avenatti story was at the bottom of their third column, clearly an intentional choice.

[LetterRip]

It isn't clear to me why it should even make national news, let alone get significant coverage.  He is about as important as other celebrity gossip.

[Seriati]

It wasn't clear to me why he got wall to wall coverage for representing Stormy Daniels either, other than it was a story the media wanted to sell.  In any event, the media made him into a candidate for President, and that makes it far more newsworthy now that it ever should have been.

Or in other words, they have to lie in the bed they made.

[D.W.]

In any event, the media made him into a candidate for President

Is this attempted humor or was this floated?   

[Seriati]

I don't know what you mean, but I've seen multiple lists of Democratic candidates for President that have him on them.

[LetterRip]

It wasn't clear to me why he got wall to wall coverage for representing Stormy Daniels either, other than it was a story the media wanted to sell.

A presidential candidate committing a federal election crime is fairly significant news.  A lawyer committing a crime on behalf of a presidential candidate is also fairly significant news.  Someone threatening violence against a woman's child to prevent her from going public about the behaviour of a presidential candidate is also significant news.  A President lying about breaking the law is also significant news.

[Seriati]

Of course none of that actually relates to Avenatti in any way but a pipe dream.  Most of it's barely plausible, its just the story the media wanted to sell.  They made him and they're stuck with him.

[D.W.]

I don't know what you mean,

You answered the question.  Wasn't any deeper than the text.  I'd heard nothing of the sort. 

I guess to be fair, it's a name I've heard of, and it doesn't end with Clinton... 

[TheDeamon]

In any event, the media made him into a candidate for President

Is this attempted humor or was this floated?   

I have seen his name get floated as a possible Democratic Presidential candidate for 2020. It is that status gaining press attention now on this event.

[rightleft22]

In any event, the media made him into a candidate for President

Did the media make him into a candidate or were they reporting on him hinting at he might run or was it that he said if he ran he could win... I don't remember

We need to clarify what we mean when we use the word media. Was it social media, talk shows, or news (no panels, no editorial, no opinion just the news)

[Pete at Home]

I'd say the left-wits on facebook did it. Some of them former Ornery lefties.  But most of all Wasserman-Schultz and Marrissa Johnson, with the help of Vladimir Putin. 

[Crunch]

Avenatti is alleging it is a false allegation by those acting on behalf of Jacob Wohl - the individual who conspired to have false allegations made against Mueller.

So much for believing women. The irony of this is sublime.

[Crunch]

I don't know what you mean, but I've seen multiple lists of Democratic candidates for President that have him on them.

Avenatti 2020 - Fighting to give women rights ... and if they don’t behave, lefts too.

[D.W.]

That was terrible...
I laughed, but sometimes I'm a terrible person.   

[LetterRip]

Avenatti is alleging it is a false allegation by those acting on behalf of Jacob Wohl - the individual who conspired to have false allegations made against Mueller.

So much for believing women. The irony of this is sublime.

There is no irony at all, since I've never help the position we should believe all women for any and all accusations - indeed my public (and personal) position has always been that about 2% of the population are psychopaths - and women psychopaths use false accusations as a tool (revenge, as way to gain leverage in a legal dispute, as a threat etc) - and thus we can expect a reasonable percentage of accusations to be false, and we should evaluate the individual merits of the accusation and what we know of the woman's character and the man's character.

If a credible accusation is made, we can then judge it on its merits.  At this time though - since we have strong evidence that republican operatives have sought to purchase false allegations against political opponents in the past, and there is no public allegation, it isn't unreasonable to wait for more information before drawing conclusions.

[Lloyd Perna]

I don't think the Police would have arrested him if there weren't a credible allegation.

[LetterRip]

I don't think the Police would have arrested him if there weren't a credible allegation.

I mean a publicly credible allegation.  We don't know who made the allegation, what the specific allegation is, etc.  We know that the initial reporting is that it was his estranged wife, but she has publicly denied it.  I'm not saying it definitely didn't happen, but at this point all we know is that an arrest was made and he is out on bail.

[Pete at Home]

Avenatti is alleging it is a false allegation by those acting on behalf of Jacob Wohl - the individual who conspired to have false allegations made against Mueller.

So much for believing women. The irony of this is sublime.

There is no irony at all, since I've never help the position we should believe all women for any and all accusations - indeed my public (and personal) position has always been that about 2% of the population are psychopaths - and women psychopaths use false accusations as a tool (revenge, as way to gain leverage in a legal dispute, as a threat etc) - and thus we can expect a reasonable percentage of accusations to be false, and we should evaluate the individual merits of the accusation and what we know of the woman's character and the man's character.

If a credible accusation is made, we can then judge it on its merits. 

I'll vouch for LR on this.  Since my debut on Ornery he's argued the position that almost all rapes are carried out by a tiny fraction of the population and stood for due process.

[Crunch]

Avenatti is alleging it is a false allegation by those acting on behalf of Jacob Wohl - the individual who conspired to have false allegations made against Mueller.

So much for believing women. The irony of this is sublime.

There is no irony at all, since I've never help the position we should believe all women for any and all accusations - indeed my public (and personal) position has always been that about 2% of the population are psychopaths - and women psychopaths use false accusations as a tool (revenge, as way to gain leverage in a legal dispute, as a threat etc) - and thus we can expect a reasonable percentage of accusations to be false, and we should evaluate the individual merits of the accusation and what we know of the woman's character and the man's character.

If a credible accusation is made, we can then judge it on its merits.  At this time though - since we have strong evidence that republican operatives have sought to purchase false allegations against political opponents in the past, and there is no public allegation, it isn't unreasonable to wait for more information before drawing conclusions.

I meant for Avenatti, not you. As well as for the rest of those that insisted on destroying Kavanaugh.  Kavanaugh must be laughing his ass off.

[Pete at Home]

I doubt it.  He seemed to take it far more personally than Thomas did.  Expect actual revenge from that one.

[cherrypoptart]

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/facebook-selfie-saved-man-spending-99-years-prison-crime-didnt-commit-213950742.html

"On Sept. 22, 2017, Cedar Park, Texas, resident Christopher “CJ” Precopia, 21, was working at a lumberyard when the Temple County Police Department came to arrest him. CJ’s crime: Breaking into his ex-girlfriend’s home two days prior and attacking her with a box cutter, carving an “X” onto her chest... Per ABC News, CJ’s ex-girlfriend told police that after CJ broke into her home, he “came towards her in an aggressive manner and pushed her to the ground, punched her in the face and cut her with a box cutter.”

“I could hear the slices being made,” the woman told police, according to KVUE...

...However, Erin insisted that her son couldn’t have committed this crime — because they were together on Sept. 20th, 2017, at 7:20 p.m., the time of the alleged attack. Erin had taken CJ to the Renaissance Austin Hotel for an event by the skincare line Rodan & Fields called “Men Tell All.”

“Thankfully, I do log on Facebook all the time, and I check in when I go places,” Erin, who did not return Yahoo Lifestyle’s request for comment, told KVUE. That evening, Erin had posted a selfie of her and CJ at 7:02 p.m. at the event located an hour away from the accuser’s home."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice how Ford didn't make this rookie mistake of specifying the time and place so Kavanaugh could prove his innocence.

Nevertheless, we must still believe the survivors, no matter what. He should go to prison for what he did, even if he didn't, and he definitely should never be on the Supreme Court. After all, those were very serious and credible accusations.

[TheDrake]

Nevertheless, we must still believe the survivors, no matter what. He should go to prison for what he did, even if he didn't, and he definitely should never be on the Supreme Court. After all, those were very serious and credible accusations.

Your little meme has grown tiresome. A vanishingly small minority of people thinks you must believe everyone no matter what. You certainly must make a good faith effort to listen to what someone has to say, and not dismiss it pre-emptively. In other words, you should investigate much as these people have done successfully, and how it has worked out successfully for the vast majority of the falsely accused.

Just about everyone has to be somewhere, and the only upside of ubiquitous cell phone records tracking your every move is that you're going to have evidence of where your phone was.

The real question is with relatively available exonerating evidence, who botched the investigation and who charged him prematurely? The jokers over at Bell County.

[Crunch]

Nevertheless, we must still believe the survivors, no matter what. He should go to prison for what he did, even if he didn't, and he definitely should never be on the Supreme Court. After all, those were very serious and credible accusations.

Your little meme has grown tiresome. A vanishingly small minority of people thinks you must believe everyone no matter what. You certainly must make a good faith effort to listen to what someone has to say, and not dismiss it pre-emptively. In other words, you should investigate much as these people have done successfully, and how it has worked out successfully for the vast majority of the falsely accused.

Just about everyone has to be somewhere, and the only upside of ubiquitous cell phone records tracking your every move is that you're going to have evidence of where your phone was.

The real question is with relatively available exonerating evidence, who botched the investigation and who charged him prematurely? The jokers over at Bell County.

In this post you say the meme should be done and, that by doing exactly what you say should be done, the police botched the investigation. 

[Lloyd Perna]

I don't think the Police would have arrested him if there weren't a credible allegation.

I mean a publicly credible allegation.  We don't know who made the allegation, what the specific allegation is, etc.  We know that the initial reporting is that it was his estranged wife, but she has publicly denied it.  I'm not saying it definitely didn't happen, but at this point all we know is that an arrest was made and he is out on bail.

Ok, Looks like more details are coming out.  Is this "publicly credible"?


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/michael-avenatti-accuser-says-he-dragged-her-left-her-marks-n938656

[LetterRip]

Llyod,

yep seems fairly credible to me, though it differs significantly from the initial report.  Does this lawfully qualify as domestic violence?  He probably should have called the cops to evict her rather than trying to do so himself.  But it doesn't sound like it could meet the definition of domestic violence in most jurisdictions.

[TheDrake]

In this post you say the meme should be done and, that by doing exactly what you say should be done, the police botched the investigation.

I took a minute to respond, because I was trying to decide if you were being deliberately obtuse, trying to be funny, or really unable to comprehend.

Nobody, literally nobody thinks that a jury trial should be suspended on pure testimony of an accuser.

What people mean, when they say that you should believe the women, is that you shouldn't immediately attack them and try to discredit their story. They shouldn't be disparaged for not coming forward immediately. They shouldn't have their character questioned. They shouldn't be discouraged from making a report. In other words, they should be treated exactly like everyone else reporting a crime.

If you go to report a burglary, the cops don't insinuate that you were asking for it by having nice things in your house. If you report that your accountant is embezzling from you, you aren't treated skeptically by the DA. If you report that somebody stole your car they don't ask what you were doing in that neighborhood before they list it stolen.

Yes, sometimes reports turn out to be false. If you were an accountant falsely accused, you might lose some clients while you prove your innocence. There's a redress for that, its called a civil suit.

[Crunch]

What people mean, when they say that you should believe the women, is that you shouldn't immediately attack them and try to discredit their story. They shouldn't be disparaged for not coming forward immediately. They shouldn't have their character questioned. They shouldn't be discouraged from making a report. In other words, they should be treated exactly like everyone else reporting a crime.

It has been repeatedly demonstrated that this is not true ... unless the accused is a democrat.

[cherrypoptart]

> TheDrake


> Yes, sometimes reports turn out to be false. If you were an accountant falsely accused, you might lose some clients while you prove your innocence. There's a redress for that, its called a civil suit.

Why should it be treated the same as other crimes when it is totally different? And most of the time there is no possible way to prove your innocence so even if you can't be found guilty in a court of law because there isn't enough evidence you still have that hanging over your head for the rest of your life and lose relationships and your reputation forever with no way to get it back. Look at the Ford case. How does Kavanaugh prove he didn't do it? How does a civil suit redress anything when there's no way to prove he didn't do it? How does he get his reputation back when tens of millions of people still think he did it and he has no possible way to change their minds? The damage done by a false sexual assault accusation can never be undone.

[Pete at Home]

Drake,  what you say is indeed what some people believe, but if you think that that’s what the college institutional feminists mean, Then you had to of been living with your head under a rock during the entire Obama administration

[Pete at Home]

 Drake, I agree with you that should be treated like any other Cryan.  But if you think the cops don’t show up on the scene of a burglary, or car theft, and start investigating the victim, then you live a very privileged and protected life

[TheDeamon]

Insurance Fraud is a myth concocted by the insurance industry to increase my rates and lower their payouts. =P

I think the more cheeky line to use on Avenatti would be to praise the courage of his accuser in coming forward to law enforcement, knowing what machinery would be unleashed upon her after doing so.

[LetterRip]

The felony domestic violence charges - which was the reason for the arrest - have been dropped.  Referral to city attorney for determination of whether there should be misdemeanor domestic violence charges.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/22/prosecutor-declines-felony-case-avenatti-1012550