Author Topic: Who should be held to the higher truth standard? POTUS or a news org?  (Read 577 times)

Pete at Home

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Who should be held to the higher standard regarding truthfulness?  The POTUS or a major news organization?

Discuss. Bonus points if you can avoid naming presidents past #41 as examples, and craft general rules that apply to leaders and news orgs. Remember the idea of standing for something rather than standing with a group? That old chestnut.

TheDeamon

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Re: Who should be held to the higher truth standard? POTUS or a news org?
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 01:49:19 AM »
Any News Organization that claims to be non-partisan in nature.

If they(the News Org) want to be partisans, then all bets are off; but they likewise lose a fair bit of standing as well.

PotUS is a politician, lies are almost expected.

D.W.

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Re: Who should be held to the higher truth standard? POTUS or a news org?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 09:13:54 AM »
The News.  Because without a high standard in reporting we'd never know to what extent others lack standards...

rightleft22

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Re: Who should be held to the higher truth standard? POTUS or a news org?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 09:58:36 AM »
Quote
PotUS is a politician, lies are almost expected.


So Lies are ok if its expected? Or are we just so numb to them that we stop caring? Do we deserve better?
What are we say stuff like that?

Wow that really pushed my button.

D.W.

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Re: Who should be held to the higher truth standard? POTUS or a news org?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 10:33:02 AM »
A post truth society!  The new dark age has so many brightly lit screens.    8)

Fenring

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Re: Who should be held to the higher truth standard? POTUS or a news org?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 11:02:42 AM »
So Lies are ok if its expected? Or are we just so numb to them that we stop caring? Do we deserve better?
What are we say stuff like that?

Wow that really pushed my button.

Expect lies whenever there's a conflict of interest in getting power vs. serving. The lie is used to get what one wants, and then to perpetuate power once one has it. This will be done if the individual is advantaged by lying (or things they are). Solution is simple: take away the advantage. Until then expect the lie.

TheDrake

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Re: Who should be held to the higher truth standard? POTUS or a news org?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2018, 11:26:36 AM »
Truth is a broad concept.

I expect politicians to make false promises. I expect them to exaggerate problems that they think deserve a solution in terms of framing. I expect them to feign interest in Iowans for a brief period every four years. Maybe the middle one applies to OpEds - which are published by a news organization.

I don't expect politicians to make claims of events that never happened, like Hillary claiming to be shot at - although the more I learn about science about memories shifting from 3rd to 1st person, the less upset I am about that particular one. For a news organization, this is unforgivable.

I expect that when an error is made, either by a politician or a news organization, there should be a visible retraction and apology.

I expect that if a politician or a news organization states an objective fact, like prices have risen 15% over 5 years, that it should be accurate.

I can't pick either/or. My standards are largely the same regardless of who is doing the telling.

TheDeamon

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Re: Who should be held to the higher truth standard? POTUS or a news org?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2018, 12:57:20 PM »
Quote
PotUS is a politician, lies are almost expected.


So Lies are ok if its expected? Or are we just so numb to them that we stop caring? Do we deserve better?
What are we say stuff like that?

Wow that really pushed my button.

If they got elected, it obviously is what "we deserve." Now as to being something to desire, I fully agree that the trait is undesirable.

But that is why an unbiased, non-partisan and factually reliable press corps is Critical, so they sound the alert when big lies are being perpetuated.

But short of an unbiased, non-partisan press, then a (reasonably) unfettered partisan press (so all sides can get their views out) is required. And that is the where "factually reliable" meets spin and "lies, dammed lies, and statistics."

Fenring

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Re: Who should be held to the higher truth standard? POTUS or a news org?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2018, 01:04:41 PM »
If they got elected, it obviously is what "we deserve."

Not if you consider that voters are not given an option about how the election process is conducted. They only vote on the final result. It makes no sense to accuse a player for failing the game when the rules are broken.

Seriati

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Re: Who should be held to the higher truth standard? POTUS or a news org?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2018, 03:16:51 PM »
Who should be held to the higher standard regarding truthfulness?  The POTUS or a major news organization?

Major News Organizations.  They should be held to the standard of verified proof.  That's kind of their job, to investigate and report.  There should never have been a need for "fact checkers" as that's literally what the major news organizations should have been doing.

There's plenty of room there to have opinions and to make persuasive arguments, but they should not come from a place where the truth is suppressed or altered to get there.

POTUS on the other hand should be held to a high standard as well.  I'm not of fan of deliberate self serving lies, you know like telling everyone Benghazi was about a video or that Trump's inauggeration had more people at it than any prior inauggeration.

But mistakes, even ones that are self-serving (and rarely corrected) are less concerning.  POTUS will often be talking to people and have to make statements off the cuff, or make claims based on questionable assumptions (Obamacare will save every family money), or because the office holder (Trump) is a braggart that seems to think putting something in the ball park or in the general direction is equal to truth. 

The remedy though for a politician remains to look at what the politician is doing overall and where they are going.  No one stopped voting for Obama because he lied about Obamacare, or because he lied about same sex marriage (heck, everyone knew that was a lie for "middle America" and no one cared).  No one's going to stop voting for Trump just because the media vets every word in everything he says and holds it up to a completely partisan mirror of whether its false (heck even the factcheckers routinely base their criticism on opinion rather than fact).

Quote
Discuss. Bonus points if you can avoid naming presidents past #41 as examples, and craft general rules that apply to leaders and news orgs. Remember the idea of standing for something rather than standing with a group? That old chestnut.

No bonus points for me. 

It's funny to me that the left passionately believes in the utility of diversity in every walk of life, except when it comes to intellectual diversity.  News organizations won't get it correct until they make real efforts to bring in more people with a broader diversity of opinions.  Far too much echo chamber reporting.

If they did that they'd have far more credibility when they tried to hold politicians' feet to the fire.

As for politicians?  What can we actually do?  Choice is generally vote for someone you dislike, or vote for someone who hates you and your entire way of life.  Is that a real choice?

Pete at Home

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Re: Who should be held to the higher truth standard? POTUS or a news org?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2018, 11:03:06 PM »
I think most of us would be OK with a POTUS lying to the press and people in order to mislead the enemy as to the location of the Normandy invasion during WWII.  Some might even say that it's the president's constitutional duty as commander in chief to so lie.

I think that the wrongfulness of a lie depends greatly on whether and to whom the debt of truth is owed.