Author Topic: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?  (Read 426 times)

Wayward Son

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Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« on: November 30, 2018, 06:36:23 PM »
We know that money laundering is a Federal crime.  But is it serious enough to rise to the level of impeachment?  Even for the highest office in the land?

Just thought this might be a topic to settle before any practical examples are discovered. ;)

scifibum

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2018, 07:37:58 PM »
Trump's conduct is impeachable several times over already. The question is what will stir the Senate Republicans.

We already know that past criminal tax fraud won't.

It's going to take a lot.

Crunch

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2018, 09:08:21 AM »
Right.  Since illegal gun running and murdering American citizens was perfectly acceptable, nothing is an impeachable offense .   
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 09:11:12 AM by Crunch »

TheDeamon

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2018, 09:40:18 AM »
Trump's conduct is impeachable several times over already. The question is what will stir the Senate Republicans.

We already know that past criminal tax fraud won't.

It's going to take a lot.

They haven't even impeached "their own" (fellow congressmen) for that, so why would the President be different? If a member of Congress can do it and only receive censure, it doesn't seem consistent for someone else to get impeached, by Congress, for the same conduct.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2018, 10:19:51 AM »
If they were honest, they'd impeach Trump for trying to secure the border and enforce the immigration laws that are currently on the books because that's the thing they really object to Trump doing most. So what would be the actual crime to charge him with regarding his attempts to secure the border and uphold the law? Well... racism of course. The worst crime of all.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2018, 10:25:05 AM »
By the way, wasn't it illegal for Obama to drop pallets of American cash on an Iranian tarmac? Of course he never actually did that. Instead he converted that American cash to foreign cash first and then dropped it on an Iranian tarmac. And that made it legal, right? I'm not sure that's exactly money laundering but it's sure seems like some sort of money finagling, at least.

Yes, I know... but... but... Obama!

I'll take a look at Trump's money laundering and see but so far as the media goes up to now, their attacks on him haven't ended up looking legit. I want to say nothing-burgers but maybe that's overused and a too little well-done but I don't have a better term for it on the menu.

D.W.

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2018, 11:32:51 AM »
I'm not going to try and defend either of those policy actions but other than trying to shine a light on shady things Obama approved of and our government acted on, why are those even slightly relevant, let alone an apples to apples comparison in your mind to alleged illegal activity for personal gain by our current president?

How does that thought even pop into one's head?  Oh sure Trump MAY have done something wrong, but here's a government decision with Obama's signature on it!  It's "bad" too... right?   ::)

Crunch

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2018, 11:42:02 AM »
They’re relevant because those are the standards the left set and the rules they created. Understanding that we’re going to go forward with the left‘s rules is a big part of judging anything that Trump *may* have done. If the left was ok with Obama or other Democrats doing something, I’m 100% ok with Trump doing it.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2018, 12:35:36 PM »
The link about money laundering was just money laundering in general and didn't seem very specific to Trump. Here's another one. Maybe this is what it's about.

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-drugs-corruption-panama-hotel-money-laundering-714891

"President Donald Trump made tens of millions of dollars in profits by allowing Colombian drug cartels and other groups to launder money through a Trump-affiliated hotel in Panama, according to a new investigation by the organization Global Witness.

In the early 2000s, Trump was having financial difficulties and began selling his high-profile name to real estate developers around the world, the report said. One of these developed Panama’s Trump Ocean Club International Hotel and Tower.

The report said the drug cartels purchased hotel units to hide the origins of money earned through drug trafficking and other criminal activity, and Trump is estimated to have earned tens of millions of dollars from the deals.

Some observers are saying it is time for Congress to begin investigating the president’s finances and potential conflicts of interest."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a thing in banking where the banks are supposed to know their customers and report suspicious activity but as far as I'm aware the same type of thing hasn't been developed yet for real estate, meaning there is no obligation if you are selling real estate to do a background check on your buyer and make sure their funds are legit. I'm not seeing how all of this can be Trump's fault. Or any of it even. It's just more overreach. If the Feds want to go after these guys they definitely should. But if the guy who bought my house turns out to be an international drug smuggler why should I go to prison for money laundering? Not my job.

The banks usually take care of that and look for seasoned money. If a guy is paying cash then sure the Feds can look into it and that's fine. There may be tax evasion issues and money laundering going on. I don't see how you can prosecute the seller though or hold him liable.

D.W.

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2018, 09:38:47 AM »
Quote
They’re relevant because those are the standards the left set and the rules they created.
  I get not wanting to let Obama off the hook.  I'm cool with that.  But it seems absurd to insist you are following 'rules and standards' when the things you are citing have nothing to do with present criticism. 

The only way I can see to stretch this is if you are suggesting, "You on the left let Obama do whatever he wanted without criticism, why is it different now?"  (Thus ignoring the types of things one criticizes, or the motivations for those acts, or the criminality vs "things I don't like".)  Is that the point I was missing?  Is that the standard "the left" set? 

That you think we (the left) believe the president should be beyond suspicion and always to be granted the benefit of the doubt?

TheDrake

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 09:57:58 AM »
By the way, wasn't it illegal for Obama to drop pallets of American cash on an Iranian tarmac? Of course he never actually did that. Instead he converted that American cash to foreign cash first and then dropped it on an Iranian tarmac. And that made it legal, right? I'm not sure that's exactly money laundering but it's sure seems like some sort of money finagling, at least.

So.... hiding cash from the IRS is the same as giving cash back to a country after stealing it and holding it for decades? We got paid in advance for military hardware that we never delivered. It is a strange point of view that it was illegal to return it.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 11:18:32 AM »
That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is it was a quid pro quo cash for hostages which is illegal under American law.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2018, 11:58:46 AM »
I had understood that was their money and we were "holding" it for them as punishment but the thing is if I understood the situation correctly it would have been illegal for Obama to give their money back to them as a direct wire transfer or using pallets of American cash. He had to use foreign cash to get around the law. There's just something awfully shifty about that and I'm still not sure how changing the money from American dollars to foreign currency before giving it to them made it legal. It certainly broke the intent of whatever legal structure was preventing just giving them American cash directly even if it found some loophole in the letter of the law.

Going back to Trump, sure many things that go on with big businesses can be unsavory. I wouldn't be surprised if in some places there isn't bribery going on which is against American law but accepted or even expected in other countries. I wonder if Trump could be busted for that too, or at least accused of it.

TheDrake

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2018, 12:16:31 PM »
Going back to Trump, sure many things that go on with big businesses can be unsavory. I wouldn't be surprised if in some places there isn't bribery going on which is against American law but accepted or even expected in other countries. I wonder if Trump could be busted for that too, or at least accused of it.

Interesting question. I think legally, no. But politically, sure. Especially if his bribe went to someone unsavory for more reasons than just bribes. The difference is that there is enough ambiguity in what most people do to have political and legal cover. I don't know that Trump is clever enough (or devious enough) to use shell companies, untraceable cash payments, or other protections. Manafort didn't - wiring money directly from your offshore account to a variety of vendors doesn't seem to be a wonderful plan. I think you're supposed to launder it in so it looks like taxes have been paid in one way or another, though I have no expert knowledge.

If a multinational has to grease some wheels to get things moving, I imagine they make it look like a charitable donation to benefit people who live in the area. And then if that charity happens to lose track of some of the money, then they don't have anything to do with it (wink, wink).

Fenring

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2018, 12:17:17 PM »
I haven't done much reading into Trump's supposed tax crimes so I don't know much about that. However I would argue that the issue of pursuing prosecution for certain kind of white collar crimes is one of intent. If the goal is to simply clean up Washington then I would completely approve. In reality if everyone was going to be busted for while collar crime then probably most people in Washington (and probably in the Fortune 500) would end up behind bars. And actually I'd be cool with that. What I would not be cool with is selective enforcement where some people are pursued and others were not, on the basis of which targets are politically convenient. The minute enforcement becomes an issue of selective targeting I would rather none of them be prosecuted rather than the legal system become a tool for political warfare. But I'll just toss in that 'none of them being prosecuted' wouldn't be my first choice by a longshot.

Seriati

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2018, 04:35:30 PM »
Trump's conduct is impeachable several times over already.

Which conduct is impeachable?

Seriati

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2018, 04:37:32 PM »
By the way, wasn't it illegal for Obama to drop pallets of American cash on an Iranian tarmac? Of course he never actually did that. Instead he converted that American cash to foreign cash first and then dropped it on an Iranian tarmac. And that made it legal, right? I'm not sure that's exactly money laundering but it's sure seems like some sort of money finagling, at least.

So.... hiding cash from the IRS is the same as giving cash back to a country after stealing it and holding it for decades? We got paid in advance for military hardware that we never delivered. It is a strange point of view that it was illegal to return it.

Hiding cash in a personal business dealing harms the country in what way?

Giving a pallet of hard currency to the world's leading sponsor of terrorism harms the country in what way?

I feel like, if you can't write an essay showing why the first is - apparently - worse in your eyes than the second, then I'm not sure why you would take the tack that you did in your response.

TheDrake

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2018, 04:57:14 PM »
If you frame it that way, sure. But I'll continue to raise an issue with it.


Hiding cash in a personal business dealing harms the country in what way?
Demonstrating a willingness to avoid the rule of law and in particular reducing federal revenue through illegal tax evasion harms the country in what way?

Giving a pallet of hard currency to the world's leading sponsor of terrorism harms the country in what way?
Returning a sum of money in a dicey but legal transaction that stops a country that sponsors terrorism from developing nuclear weapons in the short term harms the country in what way?

Mind you, I view the second as both not a failure and not illegal. Investigations and reports back me up on the second part, while the first is hotly contested.

Seriati

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2018, 05:22:13 PM »
Lol, TheDrake, it's indisputable that Iran is the foremost sponsor of state terrorism.  I showed in an earlier thread that the evidence is that they have increased all spending on the military and regional aggression by more than a third since this deal came live.  Hard currency also happens to the be easiest form of currency to use to fund illegal acitivities and terrorism making it's transfer especially problematic.  As to the impact of the "treaty" it's fairly disputable, even if it seems obvious to me that it did next to nothing to slow Iran's ambitions to develop nuclear weapons let along stop.  It also didn't limit or inhibit their ability to develop the non-nuclear components of a nuclear missle, and gave them the cash to boost that as well.

I tend to agree that criminal actions by a politician demean us all.  I'm still open to actual crimes that can be proven.  But it's just absurd to put these actions on the same plane with respect to harm to the country.

Fenring

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2018, 05:25:18 PM »
it's indisputable that Iran is the foremost sponsor of state terrorism.

I would dispute it. I might see a case to be made that it's near the top, but beyond that I don't think by any means they're the biggest exporter of mayhem in that region (let alone the world).

TheDrake

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2018, 05:51:37 PM »
That's a policy argument versus doing something criminal.

I still think it is easy to make a case that the deal didn't "harm the country" more than it helped. We were going to have to give them that cash soon anyway, in some form, unless we planned to spit in the eye of the impending tribunal decision and several international agreements. Had we blown off the Algiers accords, the potential damage to US standing and leadership could have been much more damaging than transferring funds to Iran. Let's not forget that the agreement and the tribunal facilited payments of $2.5 billion from Iran to the United States, which was 2.5 billion that they didn't have available to fund terrorism.

I'm sure we could trot out examples of other policy errors that did more damage to the country than most private crime conducted by politicians, including bribery and other acts. Probably the greatest potential harm to the country itself is if such crimes left a politician open to blackmail. Which could then be used in any number of ways to force policy that harms the country.

Crunch

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2018, 05:53:51 PM »
Quote
They’re relevant because those are the standards the left set and the rules they created.
  I get not wanting to let Obama off the hook.  I'm cool with that.  But it seems absurd to insist you are following 'rules and standards' when the things you are citing have nothing to do with present criticism. 

The only way I can see to stretch this is if you are suggesting, "You on the left let Obama do whatever he wanted without criticism, why is it different now?"  (Thus ignoring the types of things one criticizes, or the motivations for those acts, or the criminality vs "things I don't like".)  Is that the point I was missing?  Is that the standard "the left" set? 

That you think we (the left) believe the president should be beyond suspicion and always to be granted the benefit of the doubt?
The left granted Obama a free pass. The left explained by not caring one bit about Obama’s illegal behavior that we should no longer care abiut a president’s behavior. The left  cares about achieving ideological goals and nothing else matters. Obama never needed the benefit of rpthe doubt, he was backed by a following that included virtually all of mainstream media that clearly said, “we don’t care”.  That’s the rule, we don’t care. Asking the right to care now is far too little far too late.

scifibum

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2018, 03:08:44 AM »
Trump's conduct is impeachable several times over already.

Which conduct is impeachable?

That you're asking, not to mention your tireless apologetics for Trump, tells me that it wouldn't be a wise use of my time.

Seriati

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2018, 09:36:04 AM »
Trump's conduct is impeachable several times over already.

Which conduct is impeachable?

That you're asking, not to mention your tireless apologetics for Trump, tells me that it wouldn't be a wise use of my time.

I'm asking because there have been a 1001 claims of "impeachable conduct" including from minutes after the inaugeration that have failed to pan out to be high crimes or misdemeanors.  I'm asking because every claim I've researched has been wishful thinking or application of a rule in a manner that if it were applied equally would empty out Congress and many of the state governments, or it's such a bizarre misconstruction of an existing doctrine as to be false.

Most of the claims of crimes have failed to even be able to be brought in a court and those that have seemed to have failed, which ought to tell you that there wasn't any "there" there, but instead seems to  the left to be proof of guilt and a deeper ominous guilt.

I don't think it's apologetics to point out that the claims of the left have no clothes.  Just like it wasn't partisan to point out that the Obama administration lied to help his election chances about a video being responsible for Benghazi - and yet even now that its been demonstrated through their emails that were leaked people still deny it.  It was completely partisan to investigate Obama's judgement in Benghazi, and I said so from the start, the President is the right person to have made the call about what to do.

Fact is opposition to Trump is political and in some cases policy, it has very little to do with impeachable offenses other than as a convenient vector to try and undo the election.

TheDrake

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2018, 10:20:20 AM »
We have about three data points on what is an impeachable offense for Presidents.

Johnson's doesn't apply anymore, as the Tenure of Office Act is defunct.
Nixon's involved obstruction of justice by firing a bunch of people investigating himself and his party and replacing them with others.
Clinton's involved lying under oath.

Trump flirts with the second one, but his handlers seem to have him barely reigned in.
Trump avoids the third by not making live statements under oath, otherwise I have little doubt he could control himself sufficiently.

Seriati

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2018, 05:59:12 PM »
Lol, TheDrake, it's indisputable that Iran is the foremost sponsor of state terrorism.  I showed in an earlier thread that the evidence is that they have increased all spending on the military and regional aggression by more than a third since this deal came live.  Hard currency also happens to the be easiest form of currency to use to fund illegal acitivities and terrorism making it's transfer especially problematic.  As to the impact of the "treaty" it's fairly disputable, even if it seems obvious to me that it did next to nothing to slow Iran's ambitions to develop nuclear weapons let along stop.  It also didn't limit or inhibit their ability to develop the non-nuclear components of a nuclear missle, and gave them the cash to boost that as well.

Once again, timely news.  https://www.foxnews.com/politics/cracks-in-iran-deal-coalition-europeans-fume-over-tehran-missile-test  You may expressly note that Iran states that it's ballistic missiles tests are consistent with the treaty and Europe is annoyed over terrorism that Iran has sponsored in Europe.

I concede Fenring's point on "foremost" and correct the statement to one of the foremost.

Crunch

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2018, 07:43:47 AM »
That's a policy argument versus doing something criminal.

I still think it is easy to make a case that the deal didn't "harm the country" more than it helped. We were going to have to give them that cash soon anyway, in some form, unless we planned to spit in the eye of the impending tribunal decision and several international agreements. Had we blown off the Algiers accords, the potential damage to US standing and leadership could have been much more damaging than transferring funds to Iran. Let's not forget that the agreement and the tribunal facilited payments of $2.5 billion from Iran to the United States, which was 2.5 billion that they didn't have available to fund terrorism.

I'm sure we could trot out examples of other policy errors that did more damage to the country than most private crime conducted by politicians, including bribery and other acts. Probably the greatest potential harm to the country itself is if such crimes left a politician open to blackmail. Which could then be used in any number of ways to force policy that harms the country.

Perhaps a parody news article explains it better:
Quote
Addressing a crowd at a lucrative speaking engagement Tuesday evening, former president Barack Obama slammed President Trump for his "inhumane" use of tear gas at the border earlier this week, pointing out that a drone strike would have done the job much more effectively.

Obama ripped into Trump for using tear gas when a simple deadly drone strike would have sufficed.

"Whenever I had a problem with foreigners, I never turned to inhumane methods like tear gas—instead, I just took 'em out with a well-placed Hellfire II," he said, drawing cheers. "It's a much cleaner, faster method of dealing with non-Americans—and even the occassional American citizen," he added.

"It's great—you just call it in and wham, bam, thank you MQ-9 Reaper. No muss, no fuss," he said. He added that while the Border Patrol did use tear gas fairly often during his term in office, it "didn't count" because the media wouldn't cover it.

Obama grinned and winked at his audience, then dropped the microphone.

The crowd then lept to its feet to applaud the "compassionate" ex-commander in chief, weeping and yelling "We miss you!"

Babyon Bee.

scifibum

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2018, 11:45:11 AM »
Seriati, being a soulless demagogue who constantly tells egregious lies to the people is impeachable. It's not going to happen with this congress because they are too partisan. It won't happen with the next congress because the Senate will remain too partisan to convict. But it should. We should require basic decency from the highest elected office in the nation, and Trump debases the office with his constant lying. He uses Twitter and his rallies to repeat, over and over again, many falsehoods. One good recent example is claiming that he has $150 billion in spending commitments from Saudi Arabia, to justify his inaction over the crown prince-directed  murder of Kashoggi. He's repeated this false claim multiple times, trying to manipulate popular belief into thinking that any effort to hold the Saudis accountable will impoverish our nation. But that's just one out of many.

I know that lying in this way is not a crime, but "high crimes and misdemeanors" has never been meant to map to the criminal justice code. There is already precedent for impeachment over demagoguery, for other offices. There's no reason it couldn't be one article among several, including obstruction of justice - again it doesn't have to be based on a criminal charge, which you know - and abusing his military authority for political purposes with the southern border deployment. Not to mention literally standing with Putin in Helsinki while endorsing his claim that Russia did not interfere in our elections, immediately after Mueller detailed Russia's efforts: egregiously siding against American interests.

Seriati

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2018, 01:07:48 PM »
Seriati, being a soulless demagogue who constantly tells egregious lies to the people is impeachable.

I hope that's just intended as hyperbole.  I don't see any way to measure or conclude that Trump is soulless.

I haven't see the "egregious" lies, I know you want to believe that's willful blindness, but honestly, the "eggregiosness" and even in many cases the "lies"  themselves seem mostly to be unfavorable interpretations.

If this were the standard in place, admitting we can't determine soulessness, you agree we should have impeached Obama and Clinton as well?

Quote
It's not going to happen with this congress because they are too partisan. It won't happen with the next congress because the Senate will remain too partisan to convict. But it should.

My quibble would be that it's only going to happen because the new House will be too partisan not to carry it forward.  The only possible caveat to the "only" is if Mueller actually manages to find a real crime or misdemeanor, then it will also, but not exclusively occur because of that crime.

Quote
We should require basic decency from the highest elected office in the nation, and Trump debases the office with his constant lying.

We should "demand" decency.  The format for that demand is called "voting" not "impeachment."

Quote
He uses Twitter and his rallies to repeat, over and over again, many falsehoods. One good recent example is claiming that he has $150 billion in spending commitments from Saudi Arabia, to justify his inaction over the crown prince-directed  murder of Kashoggi. He's repeated this false claim multiple times, trying to manipulate popular belief into thinking that any effort to hold the Saudis accountable will impoverish our nation. But that's just one out of many.

This is an interesting one.  What do you think is "false" the level of commitments?  Or that it's part of the basis for his decision?  I can see pretty clear statements where he said Kashoggi was murdered, with the only quibbling seeming to be whether he will state that the Crown Prince ordered it.

But what really interests me is the baked in (and most likely false) presumption of what "should be done."  Is it your view that we should cut all ties with the Saudis?  We already implemented a travel ban on certain involved parties (the EU did so after the US).  If this murder was sufficient cause to cut all ties with the Saudis, why wasn't 9/11 or their known linkage to exporting radical Islam?  Do you hold to the same standard for the dozens of other countries that have been known to kill their own citizens inside their own borders?

Wouldn't the same logical arguments require that we impose similar sanctions on China, where we know that dissidents can be imprisoned and even killed by their government?

What is this "rule" that Trump is violating so clearly in your head that so clearly  demands a specific action that you aren't seeing and what exactly is that action?  The US government of every past President has ignored egregious conduct from the Saudis and many of our other allies and not triggered much more of a response.  We've looked the other way for decades because of the Saudi's oil wealth and strategic importance, yet this conduct, of which there is zero evidence is a new type of conduct, makes the whole thing a reflection of Trump alone?

Most everything you list really boils down to a disagreement on policy, for which apparently, you feel entitled to remove a President from office.  Voting is the remedy for such disagreements.  Impeachment is in fact for high crimes and misdemeanors, not dislikes and bad feelings.

Fenring

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2018, 01:23:35 PM »
Seriati, being a soulless demagogue who constantly tells egregious lies to the people is impeachable.

If this were the standard in place, admitting we can't determine soulessness, you agree we should have impeached Obama and Clinton as well?

If scifi were to hypothetically agree with your assertion (that all three should have been impeached based on that standard), would you then agree that Bush 43 should have been impeached as well?

Seriati

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2018, 01:27:04 PM »
Seriati, being a soulless demagogue who constantly tells egregious lies to the people is impeachable.

If this were the standard in place, admitting we can't determine soulessness, you agree we should have impeached Obama and Clinton as well?

If scifi were to hypothetically agree with your assertion (that all three should have been impeached based on that standard), would you then agree that Bush 43 should have been impeached as well?

If it's about WMD, no.  That was clearly an error not a lie.  If it's about something else, my opinion would be colored by the facts.  I'm not aware as a general matter that 43 was prone to lying in any context.

LetterRip

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2018, 01:59:34 PM »

If it's about WMD, no.  That was clearly an error not a lie.

Powell clearly lied to the UN - he had been informed that the aluminum tubes were impossible to use for centrifuging uranium and were actually most likely for rocket bodies - yet he straight up lied to the UN.  He knew that the mobile weapons factory claim was also fraudulent and lied to the UN.  The inspectors were clear that that believed that Sadam didn't have WMDs.  So I'd say it was clearly a lie, not an error.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/06/lie-after-lie-what-colin-powell-knew-about-iraq-fifteen-years-ago-and-what-he-told-the-un/


Seriati

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2018, 02:40:36 PM »
Here's an actual interview with Powell.  https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/colin-powell-u-n-speech-was-a-great-intelligence-failure/  Though it goes well past that speech.

Building the case that Powell lied relies on readers not being sophisticated enough to understand that there is always conflicting intelligence.  Powell relied on the analysts, and the analysts relied on their sources.  We now know that some of those sources were deliberately lying, and that some of those analysts were wrong and had their own agendas.  None of which shows that a conspiracy theory write up that Powell "was told" something was a lie, when the speech was drawn from US intelligence and vetted by the CIA makes him a liar.

Fenring

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2018, 03:30:03 PM »
If it's about WMD, no.  That was clearly an error not a lie.  If it's about something else, my opinion would be colored by the facts.  I'm not aware as a general matter that 43 was prone to lying in any context.

Just checking :)

But that said, I find it interesting that you don't think starting a war in error is as serious as telling white lies about the ACA. And that's assuming your extremely charitable premise that they fully believed in the truth of what they were saying. Especially since Bush was already planning the Iraq war before he even took office.

LetterRip

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2018, 03:34:28 PM »
Building the case that Powell lied relies on readers not being sophisticated enough to understand that there is always conflicting intelligence.


There wasn't conflicting intelligence.  He was told flat out that the content of his prepared speech were incorrect.  It is absolutely a lie when you state something you have been told is incorrect. He also fabricated parts of claimed intercepted communications during his speech - implying he was quoting from intelligence when it was actually not present in the communication.

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when the speech was drawn from US intelligence and vetted by the CIA

The vetting of his speech prior to presentation - specific notes were written stating that those speech elements were wrong.  So he knew it was wrong.  It is only not a lie if the speech is 'vetted' and then you make corrections to bring the speech in alignment to correct the false information.  If you keep the falsehoods in there - it is lying.

If a company had a public communication with corporate information vetted before presentation, and a number of material facts were flagged as false, and the corporate officer then presented the speech without removing the falsehoods - he could potentially go to jail for fraudulent representation.

There was no US intelligence telling him that the tolerances were 'too tight' to be used for rockets, and there was specific intelligence that the tolerances weren't nearly high enough for centrifuges and that we used aluminum tubes of similar tolerances for rockets.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 03:37:35 PM by LetterRip »

scifibum

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2018, 06:07:36 PM »
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I haven't see the "egregious" lies, I know you want to believe that's willful blindness, but honestly, the "eggregiosness" and even in many cases the "lies"  themselves seem mostly to be unfavorable interpretations.

No, no no. Lies. Constant. Some small, many egregious. (My spelling is correct in case you're not sure.)

Whenever people point out the lies you pick small ones and quibble, and ignore the big ones or simply insist they are different points of view. You can do your own homework if you want:
http://projects.thestar.com/donald-trump-fact-check/

The "Voter fraud" is a pretty good category for sheer made up nonsense, like this:

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"A lot of times it doesn't matter, because in many places, like California, the same person votes many times. You probably heard about that. They always like to say, 'Oh, that's a conspiracy theory.' Not a conspiracy theory, folks. Millions and millions of people."

Note the repetition on this one:

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"We started it about eight months ago. It's incredible. The head of U.S. Steel called up, he said I've never said anything like it -- what you've been able to do in such a short part of time. They're building seven new plants, they're expanding plants."

Source: Campaign rally in Huntington, West Virginia

in fact: Though Trump had been making such claims for four months, there was still no evidence at the time that U.S. Steel is building seven new plants. At the time Trump spoke, U.S. Steel had only announced a major development at two existing facilities since he introduced his steel tariffs. First it said it was restarting two shuttered blast furnaces at its plant in Granite City, Illinois, then that it was investing $750 million to revitalize a plant in Gary, Indiana.


Trump has repeated this claim 30 times

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If this were the standard in place, admitting we can't determine soulessness, you agree we should have impeached Obama and Clinton as well?

Hell no I don't agree. Trump's dishonesty is a couple of orders of magnitude above any president in living memory. He just makes things up constantly. There's no comparison to Obama and Clinton.

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What is this "rule" that Trump is violating so clearly in your head that so clearly  demands a specific action that you aren't seeing and what exactly is that action?

I'll tell you what it is, it's a strawman of your own invention. Must have been fun taking it down.

Crunch

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2018, 08:13:07 AM »
We get it, orange man bad.

TheDeamon

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2018, 10:29:40 AM »
We get it, orange man bad.

He doesn't get that intense dislike is not, and should not, be grounds for impeachment.

Trump represents/embodies a number of less than desirable things. (A Garbage fire comes to mind) But that doesn't justify creating new precedents or pursuit of "by any means" processes to remove him from office.

Stifling and stymieing? Knock yourself out, but this borderline fetish on impeachment of Trump is disturbing. It is actively seeking to create precedents best avoided, by either party. But then, Democrats seem to lack the self-awareness to realize "once the shoe is on the other foot" they may not be so enthusiastic about what they're advocating. One would think the Obama to Trump transition would have taught them, but I guess it wasn't enough of a demonstration for them.

Seriati

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2018, 10:44:32 AM »
Building the case that Powell lied relies on readers not being sophisticated enough to understand that there is always conflicting intelligence.


There wasn't conflicting intelligence.

Yes there was.  https://truthout.org/articles/powells-chief-of-staff-iraq-intel-was-outright-lies-but-powell-didnt-knowingly-lie-at-un/  here's just one link, there a many others.  You want to believe that the truth was 'obvious' because it fits your world view of what happened, but the majority of our intelligence community - and that of most other countries - was behind the report.  Even the most dissident of the US groups believed that Chemical and Biological weapons were present, and the CIA signed off on the report. 

I can look into the missile body issue in detail if you like, but it doesn't survive - to me - the facial claim that the CIA signed off on the speech, which Powell would have relied on.

Again, I feel like the standard you're pushing is one of confirmation bias.  I don't think there is any reasonable basis to believe the Bush Admin wasn't absolutely convinced they would find WMDs.  The Iraqi war was - as I argued at the time - justifiable on numerous grounds, they chose to emphasize the WMDs both because it was easily relatable and because they were convinced it was a slam dunk they could prove it after the fact with what they found.

TheDrake

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2018, 12:18:56 PM »
Even Blix was unable to get to the bottom of WMD. Hussein actively wanted the world to believe that he had WMD as a deterrent to being attacked. Iraqi resistance actively wanted the world to believe that Hussein had WMD as a way to encourage invasion. US allies had access to intelligence and supported invasion.

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Blix has written a new book, "Disarming Iraq," about the events leading up to the war. During that period he was lambasted by both doves and hawks: by the former for failing to state unequivocally that Iraq had no WMDs, and by the latter for failing to find them. As he explained Wednesday night, part of the problem was that he himself had believed the weapons probably existed. "I'm not here to have gut feelings," he said. "But yes, in December 2002 I thought Saddam had weapons of mass destruction." Still, "the objective was to inspect effectively and to report objectively."

LetterRip

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2018, 12:51:11 PM »
Seriatti,

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yes there was.

Oh, well if his chief of staff says it in his defense, I'm totally sure that his chief of staff would never lie.

Here we see the review comments prior to the speech.  I really can't see how you can possibly characterize his presentation as anything but blatant lying.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2011/021811a.html

Seriati

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2018, 01:01:58 PM »
The same way I did before.  You're relying on someone, who themselves is relying on people having no idea how intelligence really works.  There are always reports that say something can't be confirmed, or that a source said it wasn't true, even if there are a dozen that say it is.  Analyst's interpret that and make a judgement about it.  The author, with the benefit of hindsight, is claiming that certain reports were the obvious ones that should have been believed.

By that standard, all the people who claimed the economy would tank if Trump was elected were flat out liars too.  There was plenty of evidence - that they knew - that they ignored in making those lies.  Were they liars, or did they justifiably rely on the parts of the evidence they believed were more likely?

Again, what I cited pointed out that only one of the 15 agencies involved labelled those claims "weak" and the ones most relied on specifically endorsed them.  You seem to think it's a lie to rely on the actual people charged with discovery the facts.

Fenring

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2018, 01:59:34 PM »
Seriati, this seems like a circular argument when you assert that intelligence services provided reports that said the same thing as the President and Powell. This is because if it was lies and there was a coordinated effort to deceive, it would be trivially easy to arrange for the reports to come in saying whatever they want them to, so that they could claim they went off the intelligence. I've seen bona fide reports from people in intelligence basically saying that they often get marching orders for what kinds of reports they're expected to deliver and which kinds not to deliver. It's not a big secret that you don't give the boss news he doesn't want to hear. So I call your argument circular because you assume that the reports were legit and unbiased, and that therefore anyone reading them would agree with that they said; but this is only a truism, since if they arranged for the reports to read that way then it would be tautological that they would side with the conclusions. Your argument seems to amount to little more than "if they didn't lie then they didn't lie", which is of course true as a logical statement.

And this asserts that the intelligence reports all did say what you're claiming they did. But go back to the old Ornery site to the Bush thread I started and you'll see that it is not the case that the reports said what you claim they did. And there were also foreign heads of state exclaiming about how they knew for sure there was no WMD in Iraq. And it's been long proven that Blair and Bush co-planned the Iraq 2.0 even before this issue of WMD even came up and before the inspections were done. People in the UK have intermittently called for Blair to be charged with war crimes on this account. I personally find it literally unbelievable that nobody lied and it was all a mistake. It's so far-fetched that it's practically science fiction. However what I do find to be a compelling discussion would be to determine who may have lied and who not. I was previously of the opinion that Powell may have been largely deceived in what he was told, which then presupposes another deceiver. I'm not sure about that but I think it's plausible.

Seriati

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2018, 02:10:17 PM »
Fenring, the argument isn't circular.  LR is claiming  it that Powell knew he was lying because one intelligence agency said claims were weak and Powell knew it.  That ignores that it was completely reasonable for Powell to have relied on and believed  the conclusions of the other 14 US agencies (not to mention our allies), including specific approval of the text of his speech. 

It boils down to LR is asserting Powell lied because there was contrary evidence that most of the US intelligence community either did not find convincing or lied to Powell about, and LR wants to believe that because Powell was wrong he was lying.  That's why I put out the Trump economic collapse analogy.

scifibum

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2018, 03:20:31 PM »
We get it, orange man bad.

I get it, your president is a garbage fire and so the best option available is to attempt to ridicule the people who aren't willing to ignore that for a tax cut.

Crunch

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2018, 07:40:55 PM »
We get it, orange man bad.

I get it, your president is a garbage fire and so the best option available is to attempt to ridicule the people who aren't willing to ignore that for a tax cut.
Yes, orange man bad.

That’s not ridicule. It’s what your argument boils down to. You spent 8 years defending a guy that literally murdered American citizens, lied routinely, broke laws, and set race relations back decades. It’s not anything that Trump is doing you object to, it’s Trump himself. You probably don’t even know why.

Orange man bad.

D.W.

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Re: Is Money Laundering a High Crime or Misdemeanor?
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2018, 11:02:52 AM »
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You spent 8 years defending a guy that literally murdered American citizens, lied routinely, broke laws, and set race relations back decades.
Are you from the future?