Author Topic: Avoid Women at All Cost  (Read 5496 times)

Crunch

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Avoid Women at All Cost
« on: December 07, 2018, 08:09:07 AM »
That’s the headline at Bloomberg: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

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No more dinners with female colleagues. Don’t sit next to them on flights. Book hotel rooms on different floors. Avoid one-on-one meetings.

In fact, as a wealth adviser put it, just hiring a woman these days is “an unknown risk.” What if she took something he said the wrong way?

Across Wall Street, men are adopting controversial strategies for the #MeToo era and, in the process, making life even harder for women.

That’s good advice, ask Bret Kavanaugh or any Duke lacrosse player, or a college age male. It’s a risk vs reward/penalty calculation. Even if you’re a decent guy, the penalty of false accusations is so extreme that you have to do whatever you can to minimize that risk.

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Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an *censored*.”

That’s pretty much the bottom line, said Ron Biscardi, chief executive officer of Context Capital Partners. “It’s really not that hard.”

No, it’s not hard.  But it’s not enough either. The accusation is easy to make no matter what you do and “hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”. Bad review? Didn’t get that promotion? Personality conflict with a male coworker? Just a simple misunderstanding. The woman can take you down, destroy your career, with just a few words.

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There aren’t enough women in senior positions to bring along the next generation all by themselves,” said Lisa Kaufman, chief executive officer of LaSalle Securities. “Advancement typically requires that someone at a senior level knows your work, gives you opportunities and is willing to champion you within the firm. It’s hard for a relationship like that to develop if the senior person is unwilling to spend one-on-one time with a more junior person.”

Men have to step up, she said, and “not let fear be a barrier.”

Easy for a woman to say, she’s not the one that is threatened by false accusations that “must be believed”.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 08:17:11 AM by Crunch »

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2018, 09:37:08 AM »
I don't want to live in your world. It makes me sad

Fenring

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2018, 11:27:32 AM »
I don't want to live in your world. It makes me sad

I don't think it's such a foolish concern. I'm also not sure how much this says about Wall Street mentality in particular, but it's not a surprise that people fear persecution. Hitchcock famously mentioned his greatest fear ever was being accused of something he didn't do, and being unable to prove his innocence.

D.W.

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2018, 11:40:16 AM »
While I get the concern, it seems just a tad too convenient that we go from, "they can't do the job men can", to "they aren't as sound an investment as they may leave to raise children", to "we're afraid they may disrupt operations with false claims".

One can always come up with a justification.  Maybe this isn't a case of that... but it sure looks suspicious to me.

Fenring

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2018, 11:50:48 AM »
One can always come up with a justification.  Maybe this isn't a case of that... but it sure looks suspicious to me.

I think the matter is worth examining with a two-column system. In column one you make the assumption that it's just another excuse and see how the facts line up. In the other we perhaps suppose that feminism is being hurt by some modern strains of progressivism. I would be willing to believe it may be a little bit of both. I am actually quite confident, though, that the issues many progressives these days push are directly contrary to concerns traditional feminists have had and that there is a conflict of interest in play. It should come as no surprise that many times a supposed effort to combat an injustice creates more of it. As an analogy we can think of the ignorant efforts to fight the black plague, which in fact made it far worse.

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2018, 12:48:40 PM »
If you are a flaming arsehole who often does borderline inappropriate things, and who disparages women openly, then yeah you're probably worried. If you're also cutthroat about getting ahead, and undermining all the people around you, you're probably worried. If the people around you are equally cutthroat arseholes, maybe you should be worried. So that explains why a preponderance of the worried people are in finance...

Fenring

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2018, 01:11:38 PM »
TheDrake,

Even if we accept your argument at face value, there should be no legal repercussions to being an arsehole or cutthroat. Having people not like you or refuse to do business with you? Ok, it's a free country. Fear going to jail because someone doesn't like you? That's not acceptable. And I'm not disagreeing with you about the financial sector, but I just want to make sure we're actually talking about the same thing. I don't see any karmic justice in an arsehole being in actual danger from false accusations. Unless your argument is that they're not in any actual danger but people like that will tend to be paranoid?

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2018, 01:41:34 PM »
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I don't think it's such a foolish concern
I didn't say I thought it was a foolish concern. Its the conclusion I feel sad about and the world its creating. I think we can do better.

Its why character matters and that we do our best to live our values, even if we fail.
We also need to conscious of using today standards to measure the past. Few people are going to pass that test.  There has to be some sort of balance and we should not have to apologize over and over again about a past mistake if we are authentically trying to do better now.  Learn better do better.

Quite honestly I'm just sad that everything is being measured and judged as either - or when life happens in the grey.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 01:47:13 PM by rightleft22 »

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2018, 02:14:25 PM »
Unless your argument is that they're not in any actual danger but people like that will tend to be paranoid?

Possibly a little bit of both. I think there is probably a lot of paranoia, and that there's likely to be an extreme magnification of the risk. Then there's a small grain of truth that I wanted to acknowledge as well. Actually getting jailed isn't what these guys are worried about, at least according to the article. They are worried about getting fired based on the accusation, absent a real HR investigation, and the damage to their reputation.

They are probably at higher risk for all kinds of workplace discrimination issues. I also don't think that just being a jerk is sufficient. It think they probably also have to be overheard telling stories with sexual content, referring to people in a misogynist way, etc. I think there has to be some fertile ground to plant the seed of doubt. People do weather accusations, and its often because there isn't that background to say "I can totally see him doing that."

That's why the Duke Lacrosse players had a hard time, in part. Did they deserve it? No, they didn't. But nobody had a difficult time believing it so it had some legs. According to the team captains, a player menaced one of the strippers and suggested she use a broomstick as a sex toy. There was a player that yelled a racial slur at one of the women. There was a violent email sent talking about killing a stripper. As far as I know, these facts are not in dispute.

So forgive me if I don't look at these boys as these horribly wronged people who demonstrate how we must all now be afraid of terrible wrongful accusations that can ruin our lives, as Crunch seems to suggest.

Wayward Son

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2018, 02:18:18 PM »
You know who you should go talk to, to find out how to handle this new situation, Crunch?

Go talk to a woman.

She can tell you how to handle it when you sit next to someone of the opposite sex on a flight.  When rooms are too close together.  One-on-one dinners and meetings with the opposite sex.  And especially what to do when the other person is the one who "must be believed."

Women have been subject to this as far back as I can remember.  They'll tell you that, for the most part, it isn't anything you have to worry about.  A vast majority of the opposite sex are good and decent people who won't try to ruin your life.  You just have to keep an eye out for the bad apples, the ones who will try to exploit their power and position.  With those you have to keep in a strong position, so they can't pull anything on you.  Avoid situations where you can get in trouble with these people.

Yeah, it ain't perfect.  You may still get screwed.  But until society gets better, it's just the way it is.  You'll get used to it.

The best part is, you can ask just about any woman.  That's what the #MeToo movement showed.  It isn't just a few instances, like for men being falsely accused.  It happens all the time--rape, attempted rape, sexual coersion, unwanted come-ons, grabbing of various body parts, ridicule for being a woman, etc.  You can't throw a stone in an office without finding someone who it's happened to.

I know it's scary.  I know it ain't fair or right.  But until we have a good way to determine who is telling the truth or not, it's the world we have to deal with.  I'm sure you can handle it, Crunch.

After all, your mother was able to. ;)

Crunch

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2018, 02:22:37 PM »
I don't want to live in your world. It makes me sad

I hate to break it to you but you do live in this world. You are not immune to it not matter what you think. This world is even a little bleaker than you think too. Just today (yesterday?) Lena Dunham had to admit she lied when she claimed to have evidence that would exonerate a writer on her show accused of sexual assault. The lies about who’s doing what to whom once these things start consume us all, you will be no exception unless you protect yourself.

Crunch

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2018, 02:29:39 PM »
I'm sure you can handle it, Crunch.

After all, your mother was able to. ;)

My mother. Nice comment, *censored*. Wanna take shots at my wife or daughter next? That the way you do it? Just pick a random woman and use her? What a jerk.

Wayward Son

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2018, 02:38:01 PM »
I'm sure you can handle it, Crunch.

After all, your mother was able to. ;)

My mother. Nice comment, *censored*. Wanna take shots at my wife or daughter next? That the way you do it? Just pick a random woman and use her? What a jerk.

I wasn't taking any shot at your mother, Crunch.  I wasn't "using her," except as an example you should be able to relate to.  I hope she hasn't been harassed, or worse, but odds are that she has sometime in her life.  I know my mother was.

It makes me angry to think about that, and I'm sure it makes you even more angry.  But that's the world we live in.  And that's why, at this time, we are giving more credence to what the woman says that we did before.  Which, ultimately, seems to be what is so terrifying to you.  That there is a chance that you'll be treated as badly as women are.  We need to find a way to make sure everyone is treated decently.  But until we figure out how, we all have to live with the world as it is.

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 03:37:25 PM »
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I hate to break it to you but you do live in this world

Read the book  ‘Touching The World A Blind Woman, Two Wheels, 25000 Miles’ this summer.  On the motorcycle windshield they posted a note that said something like – How you look at the world determines what you will see.  Kind of Ironic that the statement this was the intention that a blind woman set for the trip. Every time they entered a new country they would be warned how bad they would meet in the next would be and or how lucky they go through the last country without being harmed.
They weren’t naive. They ran into untrustworthy people and dealt with it appropriately, however overall most of the people they met were kind and helpful especially during those moments they found themselves lost or other some such trouble. Much of that had to do with how they presented themselves and treating others as they wanted to be treated.

The world in which you live in Crunch seems to be full of boogie men and woman waiting to do you harm. I suspect its what you see and experience and I’m sorry for that. Its not a world I want to live in, nor the one I experience.

I suspect you will argue that I’m naive and that may be true. I'm sure I’m sometimes taken advantage of. Even so I’m doing ok, and it seems to workout in the end. I prefer to start from a place of trust.   I have behaved in ways in the past that I would not like to be judge on today. I like to think I learned something from those experiences and doing better now that I know better which is  what I expect from others.

I work with someone who tends to look darkly at the world and he sees it plenty, always complaining about this and that person, this or that situation. His life is hard. I work in the same space and I don’t see it and wonder whose reality is ‘real’. Probably a bit of both. I don’t know… I suspect he enjoys complaining so where both getting what we hope to see. Its just not the world I want to live in.

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 04:28:27 PM »
The best part is, you can ask just about any woman.  That's what the #MeToo movement showed.  It isn't just a few instances, like for men being falsely accused.  It happens all the time--rape, attempted rape, sexual coersion, unwanted come-ons, grabbing of various body parts, ridicule for being a woman, etc.  You can't throw a stone in an office without finding someone who it's happened to.

So to be clear, there are so many bad men out there, in positions of power that it happens all the time.  But there are not a sufficient number of bad women out there than men need to be concerned.

Why is that?  The prior abuse came about because of a gross imbalance of power and an overwhelming societal bias against the woman.  If you create a gross imbalance of power in the other direction, and an essentially irrefutable bias against the man, why wouldn't the same result come about in reverse?

Be outraged about history all you want, but also be fair about the future.  You don't correct injustice through injustice.

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2018, 05:01:38 PM »
I do not know a single person who has not experienced someone making them feel uncomfortable or vulnerable. That said I've never had my junk ogled, and if I did, I didn't notice. nor have I been groped by a stranger... wait yes I have. I didn't like it but didn't say anything.  I don't know any woman who has not experienced having their breasts ogled and or if not ogled, body shamed by a man. So what can we do... When we learn better do better.

The problem is we spent so much time ignoring this issue is that we jump to the extremes and so don't create the space to learn better.   
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 05:12:57 PM by rightleft22 »

NobleHunter

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2018, 05:06:58 PM »
So the previous status quo was that  sexual harassment, rape, or sexual assault was tolerated because the perpetrators were rich and powerful men or just careful in the selection of victims. Do you think if a woman becomes known to have made false accusations she'll be able to pursue her career without significant effect? That such events will become tolerated as the price of doing business with certain women?

Crunch

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2018, 06:17:12 PM »
I'm sure you can handle it, Crunch.

After all, your mother was able to. ;)

My mother. Nice comment, *censored*. Wanna take shots at my wife or daughter next? That the way you do it? Just pick a random woman and use her? What a jerk.

I wasn't taking any shot at your mother, Crunch.  I wasn't "using her," except as an example you should be able to relate to.  I hope she hasn't been harassed, or worse, but odds are that she has sometime in her life.  I know my mother was.

It makes me angry to think about that, and I'm sure it makes you even more angry.  But that's the world we live in.  And that's why, at this time, we are giving more credence to what the woman says that we did before.  Which, ultimately, seems to be what is so terrifying to you.  That there is a chance that you'll be treated as badly as women are.  We need to find a way to make sure everyone is treated decently.  But until we figure out how, we all have to live with the world as it is.

You using her just now was as bad as anything any other man has done to her. It’s grossly inappropriate and demonstrates the sickness of your ideology, using women for whatever political points you want to score then denying you’ve done it and trying to gaslight anyone that saw you do it. Do you not get how using women in such a way is no different than Harvey Weinstein in the impact on her dignity and self worth? To you, she’s not a person but  just a punching bag to trot out and score points.

Fenring

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2018, 06:18:15 PM »
I don't know any woman who has not experienced having their breasts ogled and or if not ogled, body shamed by a man. So what can we do... When we learn better do better

Not going to defend body shaming, although I think you might be surprised if you looked at metrics of how much body shaming comes from men towards women, versus women towards women. If the subject is how men treat women, then it would be fair on that front to observe whether it's actually individual sexism or whether it's perhaps something sick in the culture itself.

Regarding ogling breasts I think that's a bad bar to set for bad behavior, because they are genetically designed to be ogled. It's not a bug, it's a feature, and part of how the species propagates. I would fully endorse taking a look at how much the culture objectifies women, uses sex to make money, and turns people into things that look a certain way. All of this is bad stuff. But if we're going to talk about people who (compared to some other cultures) dress pretty sexy and then turn heads...well, yeah, that's sort of the point. Heads will turn when something desirable walks by. The issue to me is how respectfully that sort of encounter goes down. So I guess I should properly ask whether by "ogled" you mean really treated crudely on the street, versus simply been the recipient of a lot of (sometimes unwanted) attention. If it's the latter then that's a whole other discussion, I think. But I think you might have made a typo and meant "groped" in the first instance of "ogled", and for that there is of course no defense. To be honest I (as a man) have been touched a number of times in inappropriate ways over the course of my life, but maybe this isn't representative of men as a whole. And it's never happened in an office space type environment, but rather elsewhere, so maybe that's telling if women report that it happens literally everywhere. There's no question that the objectification of the female body is night and day compared to male bodies in the public eye. But then *that* gets into a historic discussion about how artists in general seem relatively aligned in thinking that the female form is more attractive anyhow.

I guess I've lost what I meant to originally say by now. What was my point again?

Wayward Son

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2018, 06:27:55 PM »
The best part is, you can ask just about any woman.  That's what the #MeToo movement showed.  It isn't just a few instances, like for men being falsely accused.  It happens all the time--rape, attempted rape, sexual coersion, unwanted come-ons, grabbing of various body parts, ridicule for being a woman, etc.  You can't throw a stone in an office without finding someone who it's happened to.

So to be clear, there are so many bad men out there, in positions of power that it happens all the time.  But there are not a sufficient number of bad women out there than men need to be concerned.

Why is that?  The prior abuse came about because of a gross imbalance of power and an overwhelming societal bias against the woman.  If you create a gross imbalance of power in the other direction, and an essentially irrefutable bias against the man, why wouldn't the same result come about in reverse?

Be outraged about history all you want, but also be fair about the future.  You don't correct injustice through injustice.

While I heartily agree that we shouldn't correct injustice through injustice, I haven't heard exactly how that is to be done.

What I have heard is that believing the woman when she makes a complaint will lead to gross injustice, and must be stopped.

What seems to be the implied answer is that we shouldn't believe the woman.  That her testimony isn't evidence, can be discounted, and shouldn't be believed unless backed up by substantial proof.  That in a he said/she said situation, the man's word carries more weight.

IOW, the status quo.  ::)

And anything other than this will give the woman too much power and she will abuse it like men do.

Which is kinda the point.  Men don't want to be abused like the way men abuse women.  They find it unacceptable. 

But somehow it is acceptable to abuse women that way... ;)

No, we shouldn't correct injustice with injustice.  But we can't go back to the old injustice, either.  So we either find a better way, or try the new power structure and see if it becomes as unjust as the old (which it doesn't seem to have become yet).  Because while injustice is wrong, limiting injustice to a small group is even worse.  Better we all suffer, which will give us greater motivation to find a better way.

Wayward Son

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2018, 06:36:19 PM »
I'm sure you can handle it, Crunch.

After all, your mother was able to. ;)

My mother. Nice comment, *censored*. Wanna take shots at my wife or daughter next? That the way you do it? Just pick a random woman and use her? What a jerk.

I wasn't taking any shot at your mother, Crunch.  I wasn't "using her," except as an example you should be able to relate to.  I hope she hasn't been harassed, or worse, but odds are that she has sometime in her life.  I know my mother was.

It makes me angry to think about that, and I'm sure it makes you even more angry.  But that's the world we live in.  And that's why, at this time, we are giving more credence to what the woman says that we did before.  Which, ultimately, seems to be what is so terrifying to you.  That there is a chance that you'll be treated as badly as women are.  We need to find a way to make sure everyone is treated decently.  But until we figure out how, we all have to live with the world as it is.

You using her just now was as bad as anything any other man has done to her. It’s grossly inappropriate and demonstrates the sickness of your ideology, using women for whatever political points you want to score then denying you’ve done it and trying to gaslight anyone that saw you do it. Do you not get how using women in such a way is no different than Harvey Weinstein in the impact on her dignity and self worth? To you, she’s not a person but  just a punching bag to trot out and score points.

What the **** are you talking about?  The fact that I assume your mother was ill-treated in her lifetime is affecting her self-worth?  That some men probably have treated her badly reflects in any way on her?  Your statement makes no sense to me.  Pointing out that, in all likelihood, she has been abused in some way through no fault of her own is somehow treating her badly?

Can someone explain to me what Crunch is trying to say?  I'm sorry, I don't get it.  I certainly mean no disrespect to his mother or family.

Right now, it just looks like Crunch is trying to distract from my main point, that while "believing the woman" may not be just, it is no worse than the injustice we have tolerated and imposed of women for decades.

If it makes it any easier, I withdraw my comment on whether your mother was abused or not.  I meant no disrespect to her or her family.  Talk to any other woman instead about what has happened to them.  Or peruse #MeToo for the stories of what has happened to other women.  I just thought that referring to someone you personally know and love would make their stories more real to you, more personal, not just something that happens to other people, but something that happens to the people you know and love.  That these injustices affect you, personally, too.

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2018, 07:06:51 PM »
I suggest we leave everybody's family out of any discussions, hypothetical or otherwise. It's a cheap ploy used far too much by politicians.

"Would you send your son to war?"
"What would you say to your daughter?"
"I have daughters myself."

I think it is unhelpful. Imagine if Crunch had answered, "What if it was your son/father/brother being accused of sexual misconduct? Then what would you think?"

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2018, 02:26:36 AM »
I don't want to live in your world. It makes me sad

I wouldn't want to live in the world of Weimar Germany either, but Hitler came to power because the sane German voices of his time refused to acknowledge the fracking obvious fact that the Armistice terms were unjust inhumane and unsustainable.  I loathe Crunch's politics but broken clocks are occasionally right on time.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2018, 02:33:48 AM »
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Talk to any other woman instead about what has happened to them.  Or peruse #MeToo for the stories of what has happened to other women.

My ex-wife told me about being sexually harassed by a woman, and MeToo won't give her a platform for that part of her story because they only tell stories of victimization when the perp is male.

That's why the women's march on washington doesn't blink when a woman that raped and murdered a gay man was a keynote speaker.  And why the left-wits that look up the story say that's OK because she didn't rape and murder him specifically because he was gay.  That's Me-Too progressive rape culture.  Affirmative Rape.  See also Salon's "marshmellow" treatment of the "Tabloid" movie arguing that a woman can't rape a man even at gunpoint with him manacled to the bed because his erection proves some sort of consent.

What do you call a movement to tell stories of sexual harassment and rape BY women?  #metooBitch?

D.W.

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2018, 09:26:37 AM »
While TheDrake’s point about leaving families out of it is more condusive to good discussions, Crunch has either taken Wayward’s point in the worst possible (and IMO the most ridiculously wrong) way.  Wayward it seemed perfectly obvious to me what you were saying.  I hope rather that this is indeed Crunch Brand Distracti-O’s for our enjoyment…

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That's why the women's march on washington doesn't blink when a woman that raped and murdered a gay man was a keynote speaker.
Pete, who are you talking about?  I expect the reason “nobody blinked” is nobody knew about it.  It’s not often that an ex-con convicted of murder gets to be a keynote speaker at this type of event. 

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2018, 11:13:54 AM »
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That's why the women's march on washington doesn't blink when a woman that raped and murdered a gay man was a keynote speaker.
Pete, who are you talking about?  I expect the reason “nobody blinked” is nobody knew about it.  It’s not often that an ex-con convicted of murder gets to be a keynote speaker at this type of event.

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D.W.

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2018, 11:26:47 AM »
thanks

That's a pretty insane read.  That anyone knowledgeable about her (even "secondary involvement") would give her a mic blows my mind...

Not every day you read something and thing, "It can't be THAT bad, there must be more to it..."  Only to learn, Yep!  It's that nuts.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 11:31:31 AM by D.W. »

Crunch

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2018, 06:30:50 PM »
I'm sure you can handle it, Crunch.

After all, your mother was able to. ;)

My mother. Nice comment, *censored*. Wanna take shots at my wife or daughter next? That the way you do it? Just pick a random woman and use her? What a jerk.

I wasn't taking any shot at your mother, Crunch.  I wasn't "using her," except as an example you should be able to relate to.  I hope she hasn't been harassed, or worse, but odds are that she has sometime in her life.  I know my mother was.

It makes me angry to think about that, and I'm sure it makes you even more angry.  But that's the world we live in.  And that's why, at this time, we are giving more credence to what the woman says that we did before.  Which, ultimately, seems to be what is so terrifying to you.  That there is a chance that you'll be treated as badly as women are.  We need to find a way to make sure everyone is treated decently.  But until we figure out how, we all have to live with the world as it is.

You using her just now was as bad as anything any other man has done to her. It’s grossly inappropriate and demonstrates the sickness of your ideology, using women for whatever political points you want to score then denying you’ve done it and trying to gaslight anyone that saw you do it. Do you not get how using women in such a way is no different than Harvey Weinstein in the impact on her dignity and self worth? To you, she’s not a person but  just a punching bag to trot out and score points.

What the **** are you talking about?  The fact that I assume your mother was ill-treated in her lifetime is affecting her self-worth?  That some men probably have treated her badly reflects in any way on her?  Your statement makes no sense to me.  Pointing out that, in all likelihood, she has been abused in some way through no fault of her own is somehow treating her badly?

Can someone explain to me what Crunch is trying to say?  I'm sorry, I don't get it.  I certainly mean no disrespect to his mother or family.

Right now, it just looks like Crunch is trying to distract from my main point, that while "believing the woman" may not be just, it is no worse than the injustice we have tolerated and imposed of women for decades.

If it makes it any easier, I withdraw my comment on whether your mother was abused or not.  I meant no disrespect to her or her family.  Talk to any other woman instead about what has happened to them.  Or peruse #MeToo for the stories of what has happened to other women.  I just thought that referring to someone you personally know and love would make their stories more real to you, more personal, not just something that happens to other people, but something that happens to the people you know and love.  That these injustices affect you, personally, too.

See how easy that was? You just got the MeToo treatment, the briefest taste of what guys face and what they’re fearing in the workplace.  How’d that feel? How much easier would it be for an angry woman, justified or not, to do that to you at work? They probably ask the same questions as you did and are just as surprised as you are. You know, of course, context, what you meant, and apologies in these cases don’t matter. If this were a place of work, you’d be under investigation by HR right now and have a good chance of being fired. Certainly your career here would be over and you’d need to go work somewhere else, hoping the taint doesn’t follow you.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2018, 04:26:59 AM »
thanks

That's a pretty insane read.  That anyone knowledgeable about her (even "secondary involvement") would give her a mic blows my mind...

Not every day you read something and thing, "It can't be THAT bad, there must be more to it..."  Only to learn, Yep!  It's that nuts.

It gets worse when you put it in the larger pattern of Salon and other leftwit sources arguing overtly that a man has no right over his body: should not be allowed to control his sperm count with male birth control pills if such ever become available, that a woman that forces a man to have vaginal sex with her has not "raped" him, and a broad number of unilateral privileges where a woman has is justified in killing a man with premeditation outside any reasonable construction of self-defense or defense of another.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2018, 04:30:01 AM »
I'm sure you can handle it, Crunch.

After all, your mother was able to. ;)

My mother. Nice comment, *censored*. Wanna take shots at my wife or daughter next? That the way you do it? Just pick a random woman and use her? What a jerk.

I wasn't taking any shot at your mother, Crunch.  I wasn't "using her," except as an example you should be able to relate to.  I hope she hasn't been harassed, or worse, but odds are that she has sometime in her life.  I know my mother was.

It makes me angry to think about that, and I'm sure it makes you even more angry.  But that's the world we live in.  And that's why, at this time, we are giving more credence to what the woman says that we did before.  Which, ultimately, seems to be what is so terrifying to you.  That there is a chance that you'll be treated as badly as women are.  We need to find a way to make sure everyone is treated decently.  But until we figure out how, we all have to live with the world as it is.

You using her just now was as bad as anything any other man has done to her. It’s grossly inappropriate and demonstrates the sickness of your ideology, using women for whatever political points you want to score then denying you’ve done it and trying to gaslight anyone that saw you do it. Do you not get how using women in such a way is no different than Harvey Weinstein in the impact on her dignity and self worth? To you, she’s not a person but  just a punching bag to trot out and score points.

What the **** are you talking about?  The fact that I assume your mother was ill-treated in her lifetime is affecting her self-worth?  That some men probably have treated her badly reflects in any way on her?  Your statement makes no sense to me.  Pointing out that, in all likelihood, she has been abused in some way through no fault of her own is somehow treating her badly?

Can someone explain to me what Crunch is trying to say?  I'm sorry, I don't get it.  I certainly mean no disrespect to his mother or family.

Right now, it just looks like Crunch is trying to distract from my main point, that while "believing the woman" may not be just, it is no worse than the injustice we have tolerated and imposed of women for decades.

If it makes it any easier, I withdraw my comment on whether your mother was abused or not.  I meant no disrespect to her or her family.  Talk to any other woman instead about what has happened to them.  Or peruse #MeToo for the stories of what has happened to other women.  I just thought that referring to someone you personally know and love would make their stories more real to you, more personal, not just something that happens to other people, but something that happens to the people you know and love.  That these injustices affect you, personally, too.

See how easy that was? You just got the MeToo treatment, the briefest taste of what guys face and what they’re fearing in the workplace.  How’d that feel? How much easier would it be for an angry woman, justified or not, to do that to you at work? They probably ask the same questions as you did and are just as surprised as you are. You know, of course, context, what you meant, and apologies in these cases don’t matter. If this were a place of work, you’d be under investigation by HR right now and have a good chance of being fired. Certainly your career here would be over and you’d need to go work somewhere else, hoping the taint doesn’t follow you.

As a white guy who once kept from getting fired by showing that my firing was latino-supremacist, I'd need some evidence from you that things are as bad as you say.  Certainly some MeToo leaders might envision the outcome that you describe in their wet dreams, but I don't think we're there yet.

Also, it kind of feels like you used your mother far more foully than you wrongfully accused Wayward of doing.  In that respect only (sheer hypocrisy) you match the worst aspects of MeeToo, otherwise it's a difficult analogy to follow.  I'll read it again and try to see if I can make more sense of it after a little sleep.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 04:32:19 AM by Pete at Home »

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2018, 12:21:15 PM »
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See how easy that was? You just got the MeToo treatment, the briefest taste of what guys face and what they’re fearing in the workplace

Curious. How many men here fear this happening to them?

I am more conscious of maintaining a professional persona at work but I’m not afraid. Sure, it could happen, may angering the wrong persons (man or woman)... I tend to keep strong boundaries with those in the work place I don't trust. 

I've worked for six companies. In each the sexual harassment policy were clearly stated.   Other then the military in most cases any harassment was dealt before it escalated. This was the type of gateway harassment that leave men and woman uncomfortable – the huger that hugged to long, inappropriate jokes... In most cases it ended there. No one fired, just lessons learned, boundaries established. Other then that kind of thing I an unaware of anything that went further though office romances continued to happen. It is also different rules if the office romance evolved someone that had "power" over the other.   

The Military was different. In the eighties they started to allow woman in combat roles and the boundaries got blurry fast.  Lots of fraternization that ended badly and crossed the line.  In most cases it started with flirting and a guy that didn’t realize they were taking it to far. Some blame for both sides there, however it was almost always the guy that took it to far.

Begging the question should flirting be allowed in the work place? I don’t know many people who don’t enjoy flirting a little but if your going to engage in it at work you need to be very self controlled and aware. Probably best to focus on what your getting paid for. 99% of the time that will keep you from getting in trouble.   


TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2018, 01:14:48 PM »
I've always been astonished at what my corporate harassment training says is okay...

I've occasionally been the manager who tut-tuts when people are starting to get over the line with just joking around.

Filthy jokes are fun, but they don't belong in the workplace. Flirting? Meh, I wouldn't mess with it on general principal. I'm less worried about HR than just making things awkward and weird. If I had a recommendation, it would also be to avoid any workplace relationships. But I maintain a firewall even on platonic relationships for the most part - I'm not going to invite a co-worker to my neighborhood bar, those worlds don't need to collide. They're not on my facebook, my twitter is restricted to business, and for sure I'm not inviting them here to ornery!

I also think that being all-around well liked can't hurt. If I ever let a bad comment slip, I suspect that most people I work with would let it go with an apology. So I'm not worried that someone is going to scorch my earth, because in general they are going to give me the benefit of the doubt.

By the way, for it to be harassment in a legal sense, you can't be struck down with a single inappropriate comment. The company might choose to fire you, but more likely you're going to get "rehabilitated" with a sensitivity class or other coaching mechanism.

I focus on comments, because I never make physical contact beyond the accepted business handshake. Could someone accuse me of feeling them up in a private conference room? Sure, I guess, but I don't think I have any enemies.

I spend zero time outside this board contemplating the risk of being accused, and nobody I know IRL has ever expressed a concern.

Maybe its different for people who feel compelled to comment on a co-workers physical appearance, likes to date co-workers, is generally abrasive and unliked, and refuses to change their behavior according to current workplace standards or finds them difficult to comprehend.

Wayward Son

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2018, 03:18:14 PM »
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See how easy that was? You just got the MeToo treatment, the briefest taste of what guys face and what they’re fearing in the workplace.  How’d that feel? How much easier would it be for an angry woman, justified or not, to do that to you at work? They probably ask the same questions as you did and are just as surprised as you are. You know, of course, context, what you meant, and apologies in these cases don’t matter. If this were a place of work, you’d be under investigation by HR right now and have a good chance of being fired. Certainly your career here would be over and you’d need to go work somewhere else, hoping the taint doesn’t follow you.

Thank you for admitting you were being dishonest.  It does take a load off my mind. :)

I also wonder if you are overblowing the effects of such an accusations at the workplace.  Certainly you could have gone to HR, and they would have taken you seriously.  But I doubt my career would have been over.

For one thing, your accusation was vague.  You never explained why you were offended, or even what I had done to offend you, other than bring your mother into the conversation.  While there are strict rules about harassment in the workplace, mentioning someone's mother is not the same as mentioning someone's a** or how very sexy they look.  The latter ones are obviously over the line; the former needs explanation.

For another, I would like to think I handled it fairly well.  I asked how I offended you; I told you I meant no harm; and I promised not to do it again.  I tried to learn from it and modify my behavior appropriately.  I did not deny your right to feel that way; I did not brush you off or tell you that you were being too sensitive; and I did not call you a liar (as our current Commander-in-Chief probably would have, even though there was a post showing that I did  :D ).  For most situations, I think that would be enough.

Of course, sometimes it wouldn't be.  Some people are easily offended and won't accept an apology.  Some HR departments will try to avoid controversies at all costs.  And some people are simply out to get you.

But there have always been a threat of people out to get you.  If they're willing to lie about what you said to them, they're probably willing to lie about you stealing company property, or about you saying something on the internet that hurts the company, or any number of false accusations that have nothing to do with harassment.  Ignoring what women about harassment say won't significantly lower the threat from malfeasance.

And for those who are easily offended?  Consider the alternative--the old standard.

Men making unwanted comments about women in the workplace.  Men making unwanted advances toward women in the workplace.  Men molesting and raping women in the workplace.

And HR ignoring it.  Telling women they are too sensitive.  Telling women that the men didn't really mean it.  Telling women they are lying because they want to destroy the men's careers, or even if they acknowledge it, giving them a settlement and forcing them to sign non-disclosure agreements so that the men's reputations aren't sullied.  It is because of stuff like this that women are now given the benefit of the doubt.  Because before, they were given none.

Also weigh the amount of harm done with each scenario.  How often are men's careers destroyed without cause because of false or exaggerated accusations?  How many people do you know personally that this has happened to?  Ask around.

Then compare that number to the number of people who have been harassed, groped, kissed, or raped.  Again, how many do you know personally?  Ask around.

Yes, taking women that their word that they have been harassed or worse opens up a lot of people to the possibility of unfair accusations and punishment.  But when compared to the alternative, to the previous status quo, where there was common harassment and worse, there is overall less harm being done now than then.  So until you can come up with a better plan than the one we have now, I suggest being nice and relaxing.  It's a worry, but it's no worse than what women have typically had to deal with since before I can remember.  I see no reason to make other people's life worse just because you are afraid your life will be worse.

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2018, 04:17:52 PM »
While I grant some people are afraid of false accusations, and others are afraid that real accusations will be taken seriously, I think the biggest risk is just the honest misunderstanding. 

A friendly hand on the shoulder of a male colleague is taken as a sign of goodwill and the same gesture for a female one gets taken as harassment.  Uncertainty about the rules for future conduct and even for reinterpretation of past conduct causes a lot of anxiety, even for those who never meant to do any harm.  If you yelled at a subordinate who screwed something up, is that going to be recast by the sub-ordinate as an event that was triggered by their race, gender or sexual identity instead of their conduct?  Who's going to stand up and defend you, especially when these actions are routinely handled under secrecy and defending your friend could be construed as creating a hostile work place or even as retaliation.

Will your ackwardness at dealing with someone you find attractive come across as harassment, if you avoid them will it be retaliation or discrimination?

There have also been studies that show that when attractive and unattractive co-workers engage in the same behavior that the unattractive ones are deemed to be harassing at a greater rate.  That certainly complicates the idea that we can fairly judge these matters solely from the perspective of the victim.

Times change and people sometimes lag, no one wants to be demonized for conduct they believe is acceptable or for treading into a grey area.

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2018, 04:42:30 PM »
Times change and people sometimes lag, no one wants to be demonized for conduct they believe is acceptable or for treading into a grey area.

If the area is grey, stay out of it. Don't put your hand on anybody's shoulder, I would find that gesture unwelcome even if it is non-sexual. Other cultures would find that deeply offensive regardless of the intent. I would say that most people get informal feedback from somebody before they get reported and fired in these non-malicious circumstances.

One should be able to catch up pretty quickly, if one wants to. Most of the complainers about "political correctness" aren't interested in changing their behavior to conform to a new reality. So they continue to act like a caricature from Anchorman and wonder why they are getting in trouble.

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2018, 06:53:44 PM »
I think you're wrong about it being easy to catch for everyone who wants to do so.  I have no problem adopting these changes, however, I still work with people for whom computers are mysterious devices and grew up where smoking and drinking in the office were the norms.  They're not able to just learn that gestures they were raised upon as friendly are now ones that make others uncomfortable.  What they have done is stopped interacting with younger people and turned to relying on go betweens.  That's a real mentoring cost for those younger people.

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2018, 02:46:39 PM »
And yet... They did stop smoking and drinking in the office, yes? So with consistent pressure and feedback, they can learn. I'm going to stick with "they don't want to change *. Unfozen caveman is not an excuse. It's not just a mentoring loss, it's a loss to the company. If they disengage, rather than change, they should be pastured with a severance for their years of service.

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2018, 04:15:35 PM »
While we're at it, companies expect employees to stay on top of change. Changes in the law, changes in their market, changes in their customer profile, changes in management practice, changes in technology. Is it really asking so much for them to also stay on top of changes in interpersonal relationships?

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2018, 04:44:44 PM »
Remember the stink about no smoking laws?  OMG it was going to be the end of pubs and social engagement. What happened? People adapted and pub business actually increased.

Yes the unsolicited huger, hand on shoulder guy/woman, close talker... will adapt and the work place survive and even thrive

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2018, 05:08:29 PM »
I see, and the person who can't remember dozens of personal pronouns and to whom the attach?  Heck I know people that can't remember names and faces, adding more to the memory burden isn't going to work.

I also find the lack of empathy for those who are well meaning troubling.  Everyone should change their disputably harmful gestures to make person x comfortable, with out regard to how that makes everyone else feel.  Sharing a bathroom is bound to make someone uncomfortable, why are you prioritizing one person's feelings over anothers?

There are clear lines, and there are not so clear lines.  There are also rules that change on a frequent basis. 

Not smoking is as easy rule.  Now try to put in place a gluten free regime on everyone in a building.  it's neither easy to understand, nor straightforward, and even beginning to understand it requires study and an active use of time for which the employee is not compensated.   Even nut free is all but impossible to get full compliance with well meaning people.

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2018, 05:29:43 PM »
Don't mix personal with business, that is just as easy a rule to follow as no smoking. Rather than "oh, which people can i touch and in what way" which could be complicated - just stop touching anyone! Rather than, "I wonder what acceptable flirting is?" - just don't flirt in any way. You can still be friends, you can talk about your new boat, your vacation to Mexico. You can't talk about all the hot girls you see on the lake, or the donkey show you saw in Cancun.

If I could learn not to use mild curse words because I worked with Mormons, these guys can do it too.

Most importantly, be receptive to feedback. And, all of us can improve on providing feedback.

The pronoun thing is a crazy red herring to bring into the mix. Let's restrict the discussion away from the complications of transgender.


TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2018, 05:45:37 PM »
I will admit that I may have had a big head start versus people in other industries and professions. Tech work in an office setting with corporate HR and mandatory training with a corresponding cultural norm may skew my perspective. I haven't seen anyone put a hand on a shoulder in over a decade. I haven't heard a pejorative term more than a handful of times in the past 10 years. That includes "bitch" and "dick", which are in relatively common parlance elsewhere even in my own life.

The more someone does not have separation, the harder it gets. I'm not meaning to say that conformance is trivial and doesn't require some effort, but if you can learn every other aspect of your job you can learn this too.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2018, 10:26:27 PM »
Don't mix personal with business, that is just as easy a rule to follow as no smoking. Rather than "oh, which people can i touch and in what way" which could be complicated - just stop touching anyone! Rather than, "I wonder what acceptable flirting is?" - just don't flirt in any way. You can still be friends, you can talk about your new boat, your vacation to Mexico. You can't talk about all the hot girls you see on the lake, or the donkey show you saw in Cancun.

If I could learn not to use mild curse words because I worked with Mormons, these guys can do it too.

Most importantly, be receptive to feedback. And, all of us can improve on providing feedback.

The pronoun thing is a crazy red herring to bring into the mix. Let's restrict the discussion away from the complications of transgender.

Generally agreed except that it's not a red herring but part of a pattern of PC newspeak. I'm happy to seclude transgender pronouns but I can bring up half a dozen other example of Leftspeak that are intentionally obtuse, convoluted and mind-wracking.

In short, you're quite right for the most part: most aspects of PC language involve either helpful or neutral changes that education and effort can accommodate.  (although this has a negative effect of further marginalizing the poor and uneducated from the discourse of power).  However some PC language fatwas cannot be accomplished without doublethink or brainwashing. 

Take, for instance, the set of rules regarding who and in what circumstances a person is allowed or required to use certain words for black persons.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 10:30:34 PM by Pete at Home »

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2018, 10:24:45 AM »
Don't mix personal with business, that is just as easy a rule to follow as no smoking.

It's not.  If you don't take an interest in co-workers you are "unfriendly" or "cold" and get passed over for promotions or even fired, if you take an interest in co-workers you are "nosy" and a "busy body" and get passed over for promotions and not trusted.  You are just as easily a gossip as the hub of office communications.

All of that is complicated by the fact that many of the judgments are subjective based upon who each person is.  One person asking an assistant if they are married is taking a friendly interest, the next is creepily implying they want to date them, the one who never asks is mean and doesn't like them.

I've seen all those situations play out in every office I've been in, without anyone involved doing any behavior that objectively (say if you watched it in a training video) would be labelled as inappropriate.

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Rather than "oh, which people can i touch and in what way" which could be complicated - just stop touching anyone!

I don't touch people at work, other than handshakes.  But I work with people from all over the country and the world, and it's completely common for some of them to put a hand on the forearm or shoulder during a handshake, or to hug or even kiss in greeting.  Of course, never mind multiculturalism, they're all wrong and the American sanitized society should be lauded as the only correct way things work.

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Rather than, "I wonder what acceptable flirting is?" - just don't flirt in any way.

I haven't flirted with anyone at work in at least 15 years.  I've not seen it except for a few inappropriate people and the youngest people in the office (and even then exclusively off the work site).  The idea we have of sexist flirting, a male boss imposing on a female secretary hasn't been a part of any workplace I've ever worked.

I don't think we're talking about flirting.  We're talking about friendly behavior that is recharacterized as unwelcome flirting.

Is it flirting to compliment someone's sweater?  Is it ever acceptable?  I've just flat out avoided it.  I'll note a male co-worker's haircut, but I won't mention a female co-workers - is that because it's objectively wrong to do so, or because it's subjectively too risky? 

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You can still be friends, you can talk about your new boat, your vacation to Mexico. You can't talk about all the hot girls you see on the lake, or the donkey show you saw in Cancun.

The latter is really 60's style sexism, clearly wrong.

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The pronoun thing is a crazy red herring to bring into the mix. Let's restrict the discussion away from the complications of transgender.

It's not just transgender, it's dozens of self designations that are in no way apparent to an  observer.  I was just reading this week about a teacher fired for refusing to use such a pronoun - they avoided referring to the student by any pronoun directly (but were criticized for not actually adopting it) and referred to the student by a gender pronoun when discussing them with other teachers.

That's literally thought control costing someone their job.  How is that not "in the mix"?

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2018, 12:12:00 PM »
I'd rather stick with the OP premise - avoid women at all cost, that's why I am sidestepping transgender issues.

Complimenting someone's sweater? I guess it depends on a lot of things. I wouldn't do it unless I knew the person fairly well and had a positive relationship. I don't keenly feel some loss over it.

If I got a hug or kiss in greeting someone for the first time, I'd call for a paramedic because I've never seen such a thing and I'd probably be having a heart attack.

I would never ask anyone about their personal life unless they offered it up. Even if I see a picture on someone's desk. Is it okay? MMM. Maybe. But it's a risk that is completely unnecessary.

There's a good article from GQ that sums things up for me.

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Even small acts performed with good intentions can come across poorly, and it can be difficult to navigate what is and is not appropriate. A compliment in the workplace can easily cross lines, so here are some tips to help you stay in the compliment safe zone...

“I” compliments are unsettling because it sounds like you’re telling us that what we’re doing suits your sexual appetites. “I love that shirt” feels like you’re thinking naughty things about what’s under the shirt, while “that shirt is awesome” is much safer.

Most of your compliments should be not about appearance: I would aim for a good 90/10 split with only 10 percent of your compliments being about how someone looks or what they’re wearing. What’s left, you may ask? Well, you do work with this woman, right? “You killed it in that meeting” is a safe option.

It seems like somewhere along the way, a lot of men confused being decent to women with complimenting us, and I worry it has become a compulsive tic. So I’m telling you now: You don’t have to say every compliment that comes to you. Especially if you’re concerned that you’re toeing a creeper line, just shut it down.

You especially have to examine whether you are complimenting all your coworkers on a great new shirt, or only the women.

Like I said before, you can take an interest in your coworkers. What is your favorite sporting team - that's a classic. If it's a personal life issue, respond to what is offered, don't ask for information. Ask your open-enders, like "how was your weekend?" Then follow up and engage. Not difficult to stay inside the lines. You are the universal adapter, if somebody shares a lot or a little - you let them set the tone. In these ways you will never be nosy. As for gossip, never ever talk about a conversation you had with someone else about their personal business. "Hey, did you hear Sally went to Cancun?" - verboten.

Fenring

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2018, 12:52:29 PM »
You especially have to examine whether you are complimenting all your coworkers on a great new shirt, or only the women.

What if the work culture has a less eclectic look for male workers whereas there's a far greater divergence of dress among women? This could easily create the scenario where most of the time any "interesting" attire is being worn by women. This is actually what I've personally observed in office settings. So even if your standards are fairly applied you might well end up mostly complimenting women. Is that sexist, despite it being a true evaluation based on equally-applied standards?

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You are the universal adapter, if somebody shares a lot or a little - you let them set the tone. In these ways you will never be nosy.

This makes it sound like all conversations are passive, where you're passively hearing about someone else. But what about what you feel comfortable sharing? What you offer can also set the tone, and end up sounding like a request for information. For instance offering what you did on the weekend might well imply you expect a reciprocation. So is that wrong? But if it is, then how are both parties supposed to navigate the safe zone if both are expecting the other to set the tone?

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As for gossip, never ever talk about a conversation you had with someone else about their personal business. "Hey, did you hear Sally went to Cancun?" - verboten.

This one is a lost cause. It's not unreasonable to bring this point up, but I see little chance gossip won't happen, especially about things are aren't 'negative'. Bringing up "hey did you hear how Sally performed worse than her co-worker" isn't good, obviously, but people aren't going to feel very deterred from talking about Sally's vacation if she's the one who brought it up in the first place (to someone).

I'll note in general that although I haven't had extreme exposure to business meetings, trips, and dinners, I've had some, and a lot of doing business involves being personable, opening up to business partners (within a business place, or with associates). Choosing to always "play it safe" and avoid offering up or asking things will tangibly hurt your business, although that might depend on the line of business you're in. Most people know that they have to develop relationships of some sort with business associates, whether it's surface-level (how's the weather) or deeper (how are the kids), or much more personal where a friendship has evolved. The whole idea of 'cover your butt, don't say anything personal' is a very new, and I would add, very damaging phenomenon. Sure, it protects you from HR, but also makes the workplace less lived in and human.

That being said, I would tend to agree that eliminating egregious or toxic behavior should take precedence over everyone having carte blanche. But I also tend to agree with Seriati that it's not so simple to just get with the program. What's the best program, after all? I'm reminded of the episode at Google with Damore, where he had a legitimate dispute about how to actually improve workplace relations and make the place more welcoming to women. In his case his ideas weren't the corporate party line so he was punished, and I suspect that a lot of ultra-modern notions of how a workplace should be consist of ideological ideas that are actually undemonstrated. But I'm sure many new ideas are ok too, the question is how to sort it out and not end up with everyone treating each other like robots in order to avoid getting in trouble. And I say this as someone who tends to prefer to avoid discussing anything personal at all at work, but I also recognize that this is an actually hurtful policy for people who feel the exact opposite, so I try to compromise. This is a serious point to consider: avoiding discussing personal details can offend people. So when weighing how to avoid offending people, I don't think it's at all clear-cut that keeping personal stuff out of work is the way to do that; not if we're being honest. Don't forget that HR isn't about making people feel good, it's about covering their butts.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2018, 01:05:53 PM »
 The focus of feminism represents broad scale the trail of 99% of women in the population.   Oh you have to do is go to craigslist or any other place that shows rooms for rent ,  and you’ll see a list of barely disguised offers From men or women who want a woman tenant that they can use From men . or women who want a woman tenant that they can use sexually.   But no, let’s talk about sweaters instead, even though most women in the population or offended if you don’t say something nice about their funky sweater .

D.W.

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2018, 01:52:34 PM »
I'd suggest offering your spare bedroom to a co-worker be put on the "don't do it" list.  ;)

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2018, 02:05:36 PM »
I think very few business relationships improve over talking about your sexual history or relationship status, or other items that tread upon that ground. To say that avoiding this narrow band of topics makes you a cold automaton is baffling to me. Talk about a film you saw, sure, unless it was Eyes Wide Shut. Talk about where you went to college, but maybe not about the raging keggers you used to host. Talk about how much you love New Orleans, but not about how women will expose themselves for beads.

Fenring makes a good point about passivity and about the risks of reciprocity. I overstated the reactive nature of things. I'm basically saying that anything in the grey zone shouldn't be initiated. If someone does pry into my personal affairs, I will deflect the question. I won't answer it, but I also won't refuse to answer it. Sometimes I'll pretend I didn't hear it.

I even had a situation last night where somebody in a bar got offended because I took the Lord's name in vain. Clearly, this was a bizarre request at a nightclub playing pool. Nevertheless, I did my best to comply. That's what I mean about being the universal adapter.

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2018, 02:55:48 PM »
Quote
Former president Barack Obama once introduced California's Attorney General Kamala Harris at a Democratic fundraiser as brilliant, dedicated, tough and "by far, the best looking attorney general in the country.'' The remark raised a few eyebrows as Americans questioned whether or not it amounted to sexism. The then-president, who has also complimented men before, called Harris to apologize.

So, yeah, even someone considered a great communicator can mess up now and again. But he wasn't drummed out of office, he apologized and was given the benefit of the doubt. In the future, Presidents should follow my simple rules for success!

Quote
The research suggests that only 49 percent of people think that a male commenting on a female's appearance at work is inappropriate. Another 36 percent say that it depends, and 15 percent think it's totally fine. As for a female commenting on a male's appearance, 46 percent think it's inappropriate, 37 percent think it depends on the situation and 17 percent think it's fine.

SNL had a really funny take on office harassment.

The number one rule? Be attractive.