Author Topic: Avoid Women at All Cost  (Read 5498 times)

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2018, 03:00:47 PM »
Seriati Are you experiencing some of the extremes you mention in your work place? being asked to use certain pronoun's, everyone must eat gluten free, nut free, be a vegan, make small talk and be good at it....

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2018, 04:40:53 PM »
Seriati Are you experiencing some of the extremes you mention in your work place? being asked to use certain pronoun's, everyone must eat gluten free, nut free, be a vegan, make small talk and be good at it....

Only the last one has been present in every office I've been in.  As Fenring pointed out building connections to people is absolutely critical to building business.  You wouldn't believe how many billions of dollars flow around the country based on whether someone likes someone else better.  Not generating a personal connection when someone else does almost certainly means you didn't get the business.  I've known plenty of people who've generated millions in business, whose quality of work is below someone else who generates no business.  It's almost all tied to personal connections.

People want to do business with friends, if they have a choice.  If you eliminate making friends at work you're hamstringing yourself.

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2018, 06:04:26 PM »
People want to do business with friends, if they have a choice.  If you eliminate making friends at work you're hamstringing yourself.

I still don't understand why you can't be friendly and cordial without being baffled about where the lines are drawn. Your colleagues shouldn't be your drinking buddies. There's no reason you can't have working lunches, dinners, golf, ballgames and other not-work friend activities.

The original post describes men avoiding such activities with women because they are terrified about getting accused of harassment. I don't think that's a very real concern, but if they are worried they could  just as easily make sure there's another person present from the office. I think its just the latest excuse for cutting women out of the loop.

Crunch

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2018, 06:12:20 PM »
Do you think these false accusations don’t happen?

Did you notice that by doing what you said, making sure another person is present, that you’re saying exactly what these guys are saying to do?

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2018, 06:54:16 PM »
Do you think these false accusations don’t happen?

Did you notice that by doing what you said, making sure another person is present, that you’re saying exactly what these guys are saying to do?

I'm not advocating that approach, but I'm saying if they are so terrified, then that is a better way to handle it than avoiding women entirely.

Do false accusations happen? Sure. Traffic accidents happen too, but they don't turn people into shut-ins.

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According to a 2017 report by the US National Institutes of Health, fake accusers "were primarily motivated by emotional gain. Most false allegations were used to cover up other behaviour such as adultery or skipping school".

In many cases the fake accuser has a history of lying to authorities or committing fraud. She may well have a criminal record.

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According to Sandra Newman, every academic study on the issue finds that the most common type of fake accuser is actually a teenage girl trying to get out of trouble.

So if your co-worker is a dishonest teenager, you might be in some risk.

There were 135,000 rapes reported in 2017. The highest estimate of false reports is about 10%. So 13,500 or fewer (the low end of estimates is 3,500). We don't know how many of those resulted in material damage to the person's life. Some of these false reports are not going to name an individual, but would rather just have a description.

There were 37,000 fatalities in automobile accidents. That doesn't even account for how many serious injuries there were as well.

Crunch

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2018, 06:57:34 PM »
Sure, traffic accidents happen. But you wear seatbelts, have airbags, etc. Why?

Why do you think people shouldn’t take precautions?

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2018, 10:10:11 AM »
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People want to do business with friends

True. I work in IT so lots of introverts and management tends to hire to a person’s strengths. Being friendly and considerate doesn’t necessary require having to have the gift of small talk. That said you probably want someone more extroverted doing your face to face with customers and they would have to be more careful/professional minded about crossing lines, having more lines. 

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Sure, traffic accidents happen. But you wear seatbelts, have airbags, etc. Why?
Why do you think people shouldn’t take precautions?

I think you made TheDrake’s point as his suggestion about work place professionalism is metaphorically wearing seat-belts… perhaps HR harassment training would be the airbags?

Fenring

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2018, 10:39:19 AM »
I think you made TheDrake’s point as his suggestion about work place professionalism is metaphorically wearing seat-belts… perhaps HR harassment training would be the airbags?

Except in this case the airbags protect the steering wheel, not the driver.

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2018, 10:46:32 AM »
I'm not advocating that approach, but I'm saying if they are so terrified, then that is a better way to handle it than avoiding women entirely.

Do false accusations happen? Sure. Traffic accidents happen too, but they don't turn people into shut-ins.

So the male boss walks up to a junior female in the office, and tells them that he loves pulled pork sandwiches and asks her if she likes them.

The female makes a complaint to HR that the boss is being religiously insensitive as he knows she does not eat pork as a religious matter, and that he is making an unwelcome advance in implying that they share a meal.

Is it an open and shut case?  Which way?  Is it fair to order the boss to sensitivity training?  What if the boss had asked other people to share a pork sandwich and was welcomed?  what if he was specifically told the offer was unwelcome?

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So if your co-worker is a dishonest teenager, you might be in some risk.

I think you're at the most risk if you co-worker is an honest person that believes that common activities are offensive and you should know better.

No idea why you think rape statistics are relevant to this discussion about misunderstandings.

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2018, 10:58:44 AM »
Seriati, that is simply a bizarre scenario. Let's stay out of fantasy land, unless you have some indication that something like that scenario has actually played out.

The simple scenario is fine, you complement someone on their appearance and they take it the wrong way. Which my response is, there's really no reason to do that. Or to make loud declarations of what kinds of food you like. I work with a lot of vegetarians, I don't wax long and hard on how great my steak was last night. None of them would go to HR over it, I'm certain, but I'm still sensitive to their feelings about it. It would certainly be insensitive to set up a company outing to a steakhouse, and that might get you referred to an informal chat about inclusion.

As far as rape accusations, remember that was the OP premise. It wasn't originally about harassment, but rather it was about being falsely accused of assault.

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2018, 11:17:52 AM »
Seriati, that is simply a bizarre scenario. Let's stay out of fantasy land, unless you have some indication that something like that scenario has actually played out.

I'm trying to move us out of the "simple" cases that don't actually demonstrate anything about which people are concerned.  It's kind of a strawman to act like we're only talking about clear things.

Conducting a performance review with a door closed versus open?  You think that's clear?

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The simple scenario is fine, you complement someone on their appearance and they take it the wrong way. Which my response is, there's really no reason to do that.

Most people avoid ever doing this because of the risk, and the fact that there is no real defense.  This complaint is always going to "win" with no modern HR ever telling the "victim" that they are being too sensitive.

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Or to make loud declarations of what kinds of food you like. I work with a lot of vegetarians, I don't wax long and hard on how great my steak was last night. None of them would go to HR over it, I'm certain, but I'm still sensitive to their feelings about it. It would certainly be insensitive to set up a company outing to a steakhouse, and that might get you referred to an informal chat about inclusion.

So what if your boss is a radical vegan and constantly lectures you about eating meat?  What if you come to believe you are being passed over for promotions because you eat meat?

I mean eating meat is not a protected class, so you're probably out of luck, so it's not really a relevant example.  Maybe if you had a medical condition that required you to eat meat we could shoehorn it into a protected class.

It's a bad example otherwise.  I'm happy to walk through something you find appealling, but it has to be relevant to the actual discussion - ie in a grey area.

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As far as rape accusations, remember that was the OP premise. It wasn't originally about harassment, but rather it was about being falsely accused of assault.

It really wasn't, both the OP and the link talked about harassment, work place misunderstandings and protecting oneself from comments being misconstrued. 

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2018, 01:53:14 PM »
Conducting a performance review with a door closed versus open?  You think that's clear?

I think it generally is clear. You conduct a performance review, you generally act professionally. You close the door as protocol demands. I don't think you really have to worry about your subordinate flying into a rage and insisting that you molested them or asked them for a sexual favor. It's not a thing.

You don't have to worry about inappropriate small talk being an issue, it is a performance issue.

There are really two separable scenarios - deliberate falsification and misunderstanding.

Crunch's description was clearly focused on the former, but the linked article was much more broad.

I'd be willing to be proven wrong, maybe there are droves of men being falsely accused of bad behavior. Most of the writing about this that I've found is highly hypothetical. Men are worried about X. Because they know a bunch of people who got scorched? Because they've already received feedback that their behavior is inappropriate?

My google-fu is pretty strong, but no matter how hard I filter I am coming up dry on even finding a first hand account of someone who actually was falsely accused in a workplace.

Instead, what I generally see are a handful of high-profile examples that keep getting trotted out, like Duke Lacrosse which is 12 years old.

I would say you might be more vulnerable if you are famous. On television, athletes, politicians, CEOs, etc. They face a lot of challenges that don't apply to others.

Harassment misunderstandings are harder to unearth. But usually harassment requires a pattern of behavior. It generally isn't a situation where you make one misstep and they show you your walking papers.

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2018, 02:19:59 PM »
Well, you're running into some problems for your google searching.  HR departments are almost always operating on need to know basis for legal reasons.  They won't comment on the claims. 

The company can almost always terminate an accused - whether they are guilty or not - without any legal risk, and when they do so it's in the accused's interest to sign a binding non-disclosure and accept some kind of settlement.  Whereas if they terminate an accuser they are almost certainly face legal liability for doing so (there's a ton of resources online that can walk you through this distinction).

The accused is often not going to have their reputation dragged through the mud publically, unless of course they decide to make their case "known," in which case they are going to be tagged as harasser before they can even begin to defend themselves.

As to why you see the hypos?  Because harassment legal claims both private and through organizations like the EEOC are pretty common.  Because plenty of people know someone, or know of someone, where the rumor is they were fired for inappropriate conduct and the rumor mill is short on actual facts and long on speculation.  It's pretty easy to believe, side ways, that someone you knew for years didn't really harass someone when you don't have any actual information on what really happened.

Those "carrying the banner" for being accused are almost all public figures where the conduct is egregious and almost certainly not false.  Whereas its terribly easy to find banner carriers on the other side with the best cases possible.  Information availability bias alone would be enough to color the issue.

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2018, 03:22:04 PM »
How many people here have had to complete harassment training for work?

Many of the scenarios being tossed about are discussed in the training.

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Except in this case the airbags protect the steering wheel, not the driver

True HR primary role is to protect the company, however after the harassment training and putting process in place does let the employees know were they stand is such matters and what is considered acceptable behavior.
There will always be immature employees as well as those looking to create trouble. If you come across one, document the interactions and avoid being alone with them. 

As for avoiding all woman... maybe that might be best for those living with so much fear and distrust, at least they wont reproduce.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 03:29:25 PM by rightleft22 »

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2018, 03:35:19 PM »
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As to why you see the hypos?  Because harassment legal claims both private and through organizations like the EEOC are pretty common.  Because plenty of people know someone, or know of someone, where the rumor is they were fired for inappropriate conduct and the rumor mill is short on actual facts and long on speculation.  It's pretty easy to believe, side ways, that someone you knew for years didn't really harass someone when you don't have any actual information on what really happened.

Maybe I'm just insulated. Even via word of mouth, I've never heard a story about someone who got falsely accused, even by their own evaluation. You may well be right that people are keeping such stories under wraps, but I have to wonder about that.

I do have lots of stories that I've heard about inappropriate conduct toward a person. I've witnessed inappropriate conduct. I've heard people defending themselves who don't deny the facts, but say why they don't think it is a big deal. In particular, a non-celebrity sous chef who didn't understand why he got in trouble just because he was making lewd comments. Even he didn't get fired, just reprimanded.

Glad you mentioned EEOC. Their data says they receive about 7,700 per year, and that number has not increased over the past 8 years and usually involves wrongful terminations. About one tenth result in settlements. That's not the whole story, obviously, there would typically be many more handled privately and there are other agencies.

In general I accept your premise that there is enough "fog" to make it difficult to be certain what is going on. Using my own personal experiences doesn't prove anything.

Given the uncertainty, I wonder why men who have access to similar levels of information have already decided they are vulnerable to attacks that may or may not actually be happening?

I find it particularly odd that 30% of GOP men are more concerned about false accusation, while only 6% of GOP men are more concerned about women being sexually harassed.

source

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2018, 04:19:51 PM »
Maybe I'm just insulated. Even via word of mouth, I've never heard a story about someone who got falsely accused, even by their own evaluation.

No, what you would have heard is that the retired suddenly, or took another job, and if you were in the gossip, you would have heard the "real story" from someone who heard if from a friend whose cousin works in the cubicle next to the head of HR. 

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You may well be right that people are keeping such stories under wraps, but I have to wonder about that.

HR policy and company policy in virtually all cases is not to talk about employment matters.  This is completely within that proscription and you'd only hear anything with a need to know, or in the very rare case that a claim is filed.  The only claim that is typically filed, and generally the only one that is successful when filed, is a claim of a victim of harassment, not one by the accused harasser for a false accusation or wrongful termination.  Your employer can legally fire you because of the accusation, you don't even have to be guilty, and not firing you actually exposes them to risk.

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In general I accept your premise that there is enough "fog" to make it difficult to be certain what is going on. Using my own personal experiences doesn't prove anything.

There's only a partial fog.  There's almost no interest in a person falsely accused and vindicated making it public if it wasn't already public.  There's little interest in any person accused taking it public if it's not there already.  Most of what you see is the accuser taking it public, but are they doing so because it creates leverage - which it does - or for some other reason?

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Given the uncertainty, I wonder why men who have access to similar levels of information have already decided they are vulnerable to attacks that may or may not actually be happening?

Again, they've seen the harassment training, they've seen the behavior, and in some cases they've heard the rumors.  All it takes is one friend who tells you, in private, that they lost their job because of a false accusation, or even a friend of a friend, and you'd be paranoid.  You're talking about an accusation that can ruin 20, 30, even 40 years of hard work even if its false.  How is it not sensible to consider some defensive practices?

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I find it particularly odd that 30% of GOP men are more concerned about false accusation, while only 6% of GOP men are more concerned about women being sexually harassed.

I think one could easily interpret that as GOP men are convinced they don't harass women.  They probably believe (with some justification) that harassment is something the liberal elite do, that's why it's all over the immoral Hollywood and elite media heads.  They're fully aware that the corporate world has made huge efforts on this front, while seeing that the lecturing morality of Hollywood and the Media turned out to be a big case of do as we say, not as we do.  Couple that with a belief that they are morally superior and would never engage in harassment and false accusation is really the only context left for them - the more enlightened are concerned about their wives and daughters as well (which is why 49% are concerned about both genders).

Are they being unreasonable to believe false accusation is a concern?  They probably believe that a liberal activist would be too happy to use it as a tactic to take them down and unscrupulous enough to use a false accusation as a tactic. You can actually see that Democratic women are the flip of the Republican men, with only 4% concerned about men and 30% women.  I've heard plenty of metoo voices that don't care one bit about the damage of a false accusation.

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2018, 05:01:44 PM »
 
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They probably believe that a liberal activist would be too happy to use it as a tactic to take them down and unscrupulous enough to use a false accusation as a tactic
That's the problem with beliefs, beliefs don't have to be based on fact or even  personal experience. Hear say is enough... so both sides make the same mistake.


cherrypoptart

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2018, 11:44:05 PM »
I have an anecdotal story about a woman I know who is in the Army and she was dealing with a civilian woman and there seemed to be some confusion about who answered to whom so they got into an argument about it and long story short one woman accused the other of brushing against her on the way out the door, or body checking or shoulder checking her or something. So there are no witnesses and it's one person's word against the other's with one denying there was any contact and the other saying there was. So it goes into a whole big drama about it with official statements and interviews and witnesses called even though no one else saw anything and so forth. In the end nothing could be proved but they both kind of took a reputation tarnishing that will affect their careers adversely. Not even anything sexual about it at all but just goes to show that anyone can charge you with anything, maybe justifiably and maybe they make it up or maybe there is some Rashoman element where people see the same thing differently, but it only takes the charge itself, even if it's false, to ruin your career.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2018, 07:19:56 AM »
I suspect that a number of us right in this conversation have been victims of false sexual accusations, especially in the last year, and that no one wants to come forward and admit it.  It's like the shame in the Moslem community of being raped (like existed in our own community as late as decades ago.)  Come on --  no one here's been accused of, say, "raping" a woman that you never had any kind of sexual relations with? 


rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2018, 02:27:37 PM »
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Not even anything sexual about it at all but just goes to show that anyone can charge you with anything, maybe justifiably and maybe they make it up or maybe there is some Rashoman element where people see the same thing differently, but it only takes the charge itself, even if it's false, to ruin your career..

And it only takes being assaulted, believed or not to if not ruin your life, greatly impact it.

So were do we sand? What are we debating here. Should we all live in fear and distrust everyone, maybe 'get' them first before 'they' get us?

This fear politics is interesting. There is fear that companies and powerful people will do anything to protect themselves but trust those same people and companies to do what is right without the need for regulation or oversight. I't very confusing.

F.E.A.R  More often then not False Evidence Appearing Real - its not the world I want to live in. Maybe its naive but I choose to believe that if I treat others will in most cases it will be returned. That has been my experience to date. As for corporations and the powerful trust but verify... its why I don't make for a good republican even though I'm conservative by nature. 

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2018, 03:18:30 PM »
 Future statistics will show that 2018 was the path all year for the explosion of the sex doll industry.  Already the puritanical man haters are gnashing their teeth and crying about the increase of men playing with dolls

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2018, 03:50:11 PM »
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There's almost no interest in a person falsely accused and vindicated making it public if it wasn't already public.  There's little interest in any person accused taking it public if it's not there already. 

Agreed and well-said!  Fortunately, the proliferation of cell phones has opened new possibilities for men's rights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzA4dCT4X0I (woman harasses man while falsely accusing him of sex harassment -- all context is on video so you can see the accusation is false).

I had a psycho named Jennifer Maddox try to extort money from me this year threatening to accuse me of various sexual wrongdoings. (I'd never kissed let alone had any sort of sex with her) Fortunately, I have the text trail to prove my innocence and the wit to make her feel stupid with screen shots of her own texts.  So there never was a police report; just threats and attempted assaults by her dumb-ass boyfriend (which I also got on camera.)

I do life-casting with nudes and I have Maddox in text asking me to make molds of various intimate parts of her, and asking me to come into her house. And me refusing, and saying that I never do life-casting one-on-one, and that I needed to have an adult friend with her present.  Since then I've turned to videoing lifecasting sessions, which means that much fewer models are willing to work with me, but safety is paramount.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2018, 03:50:39 PM »
 Anyway I think all these men are just forgetting the obvious little security things that they need to do to avoid getting sued for sexual harassment and rape. Basic modern precautions like filming all of your sexual encounters. To prove that the other party was consensual even if you are not Since case law has shown that the man is charged with rape even when an encounter was forced And mutually non-consensual

Fenring

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2018, 04:11:25 PM »
Basic modern precautions like filming all of your sexual encounters.

I guess it's a good thing you don't practice law anymore... (unless you were joking)

D.W.

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2018, 04:50:21 PM »
I know I made the room uncomfortable at our last harassment training HR meeting. 

A friend who works in HR and her husband who work in security talk about this kinda stuff and break out the occasional horror stories.  Well in one case, someone got wind that a co worker was complaining about their behavior.  If I recall correctly it was crass humor type stuff.  Anyhow, they made it a point to get into HR and filed a false complaint about this person preemptively. 

Then when the "real" complaint came in, it was seen by HR as retaliatory.  Muddied the waters and the real perpetrator (regardless of how acceptable/unacceptable their behavior was) skated. 

ANYHOW...

Our training came up with, "Try and work it out with your coworker if you feel comfortable, if not, or if that doesn't work, then see HR."

So I asked, "Should you really give them a heads up that you may be filing a complaint?  What if they try and retaliate with a false claim?"

<dead silence>

Then I proceeded to dig the hole deeper for a bit explaining the above rambling story from my friends in HR/security... 

 :-[

Wonder how many people thought... "Note to self:  stay away from DW!"

FWIW the answer I got was, "That really doesn't happen..."

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2018, 05:58:57 PM »
Basic modern precautions like filming all of your sexual encounters.

I guess it's a good thing you don't practice law anymore... (unless you were joking)

I was making a squicky quasi-joke hyperbole.  See "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift or my previous post claiming that the dead have a constitutional right to vote. :)

As for the other person's remark re my practice of law; I can defend this joke from a legal perspective (just as I did with my argument that the 14th amendment rules out "prohibiting dead people from voting." :D

In other words, while I don't recommend the process for moral and philosophical reasons, it would be safer from a legal and practical perspective for any man in post "Me-Too" America to consensually video all seduction, foreplay and sexual activity in case a rape charge is filed.  I'm willing to take this on with anyone that's willing to cite law, so long as that person isn't obtuse; for example, doesn't pretend that I said anything about videoing someone without their consent.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #76 on: December 18, 2018, 09:24:35 PM »
I know I made the room uncomfortable at our last harassment training HR meeting. 

A friend who works in HR and her husband who work in security talk about this kinda stuff and break out the occasional horror stories.  Well in one case, someone got wind that a co worker was complaining about their behavior.  If I recall correctly it was crass humor type stuff.  Anyhow, they made it a point to get into HR and filed a false complaint about this person preemptively. 

Then when the "real" complaint came in, it was seen by HR as retaliatory.  Muddied the waters and the real perpetrator (regardless of how acceptable/unacceptable their behavior was) skated. 

ANYHOW...

Our training came up with, "Try and work it out with your coworker if you feel comfortable, if not, or if that doesn't work, then see HR."

So I asked, "Should you really give them a heads up that you may be filing a complaint?  What if they try and retaliate with a false claim?"

<dead silence>

Then I proceeded to dig the hole deeper for a bit explaining the above rambling story from my friends in HR/security... 

 :-[

Wonder how many people thought... "Note to self:  stay away from DW!"

FWIW the answer I got was, "That really doesn't happen..."

I don't know about the sex harassment application but I've had fun with preempting action with police.  Called and reported police "impersonators" who wore uniforms but "obviously weren't real police" because they were vioating laws a, b, and c.   :D

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2018, 11:27:28 AM »
I was torn whether this best belongs here, or in the abuse of power thread.

I think from the context, it is clear that women's claims are still not automatic even against a notorious serial offender. It is also clear that the officer in question was destroying evidence that potentially could exonerate the offender.

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Judge James Burke granted a motion last month to dismiss one of six felony charges levied against Weinstein. That charge -- a criminal sexual act in the first degree -- involved aspiring actress Lucia Evans, who alleged Weinstein forced her to perform oral sex on him in his Tribeca, New York office in 2004. Her account was first made public by Ronan Farrow in the New Yorker last fall.

The charge was dropped, in part, because prosecutor Joan Illuzzi-Orbon cited alleged inconsistencies in Evans' story in a letter sent to Brafman. According to the letter, a friend of Evans allegedly told NYPD Detective Nicholas DiGaudio, the former lead investigator on the Weinstein case, that Evans told her she had engaged in consensual contact with Weinstein: oral sex in exchange for a job.

Detective DiGaudio, now the subject of an internal NYPD investigation and removed from the Weinstein case, responded to the friend's claims by saying that, going forward, "less is more," and that the witness had no obligation to cooperate, according to the letter from the prosecutor's office. He never went back to the DA's office with this information, according to Monday's motion.

Approximately a week later, it was revealed that Detective DiGaudio told an accuser to delete cell phone messages prior to turning her phones over to authorities, the Manhattan DA's office said, again in a letter to Brafman. DiGaudio advised the woman that she should delete "anything she did not want anyone to see before providing the phones" according to the DA's office.

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #78 on: December 20, 2018, 12:01:41 PM »
It's interesting, I've always found troubling the weight we put on anything in writing that contradicts a person.  It's easy to imagine someone telling a friend it was "consensual" when it was not in fact consensual.  Telling the "truth" means admitting to yourself you were assaulted (not always easy), about a situation where you may be feeling guilt (did I just trade a favor for a job?  am I that kind of person?  did I have a choice, or did I give in too easily?), and it's always possible that you were more manipulated than you realized at the time. 

It's hard to see how #metoo can fix that, where it complicates every type of litigation.  I've seen settlements turn on an email from an assistance that wasn't even about the subject matter, but where the words could be construed to have been about it.

As to the specific advice to scrub the phone.  The police shouldn't be telling someone that, but it's pretty much standard practice for some lawyers to advise clients to scrub their social media before they get involved in a claim (seems unethical to me, and to be a deliberate destruction of relevant materials, but it's also common sense where irrelevant materials can damage a claim - like for example, a FB picture where you are smiling, after an injury).  Take a look at Christine Blasey-Ford's FB for example - oh that's right you can't it was scrubbed before she came forward, as was her high school year book, the online reviews of her as a professor, and who even knows what else.  That's the modern standard.

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2018, 12:18:30 PM »
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It's hard to see how #metoo can fix that

I agree, I don't think they can fix it and my feeling is they are making things worse. 'He said She said' allegations are the worst. Justice must be blind to allegations that can't be proven. That usually sucks for a victim. Justice isn't about making things right or even its about society.

The only solution I can see is to teach men and woman who are assaulted to come forward immediately however that goes against the psychology of assault where one tends not to want to face what happened.   

TheDeamon

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #80 on: December 20, 2018, 12:26:33 PM »
People want to do business with friends, if they have a choice.  If you eliminate making friends at work you're hamstringing yourself.

I still don't understand why you can't be friendly and cordial without being baffled about where the lines are drawn. Your colleagues shouldn't be your drinking buddies. There's no reason you can't have working lunches, dinners, golf, ballgames and other not-work friend activities.

Because for as long as there as there has been business, most people prefer to do business with "The guy they'd like to go have a beer with." Which means common business wooing practices include wine and dine, and possibly a trip to a tavern or bar as well.

But centuries of pre-existing business practices are suddenly business hazards when you change the gender of certain participants.

TheDeamon

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2018, 12:54:49 PM »
In other words, while I don't recommend the process for moral and philosophical reasons, it would be safer from a legal and practical perspective for any man in post "Me-Too" America to consensually video all seduction, foreplay and sexual activity in case a rape charge is filed.  I'm willing to take this on with anyone that's willing to cite law, so long as that person isn't obtuse; for example, doesn't pretend that I said anything about videoing someone without their consent.

Bodycams 24/7 and archiving everything. It's the only way to be safe, particularly from vague, non-specific accusations. "Well, if you really want to know what I was doing..."  :o

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2018, 01:11:43 PM »
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Because for as long as there as there has been business, most people prefer to do business with "The guy they'd like to go have a beer with.

I’m going to disagree. Most people will do business with those that will help them get what they need. Liking the person and having a beer with them will get in the way more often then help. In fact it often complicates things.


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Bodycams 24/7 and archiving everything. It's the only way to be safe, particularly from vague, non-specific accusations. "Well, if you really want to know what I was doing

Or we could force a dress code. Maybe cover up those parts that distract us. Oh and a law were everyone can only meet with a chaperone present.

TheDeamon

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2018, 01:45:38 PM »
Oh and a law were everyone can only meet with a chaperone present.

Well, that won't do, unreliable chaperones are known to exist.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2018, 01:53:55 PM »
Oh and a law were everyone can only meet with a chaperone present.

Well, that won't do, unreliable chaperones are known to exist.

Nowadays we call that a threesome.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/relay.nationalgeographic.com/proxy/distribution/public/amp/2017/02/video-footage-gray-whale-mating
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 01:56:00 PM by Pete at Home »

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2018, 01:57:54 PM »
Maybe all chaperons had to be relatives

you know like sharia law or what they worked out in Handmaids tale -  ;)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 02:00:00 PM by rightleft22 »

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2018, 02:20:50 PM »
Maybe all chaperons had to be relatives

That’s called an epic threesome.  Mom-daughter being the mother of all threesomes. Where have you been? :D

TheDrake

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #87 on: December 20, 2018, 02:25:10 PM »
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But centuries of pre-existing business practices are suddenly business hazards when you change the gender of certain participants.

That must be why salesmen can never land a client who is Mormon or Evangelical. They are incapable of cleaning up their language based on what will appeal to a client.  ::)

They are also not capable of adapting to foreign cultures that find handshakes rude and offensive. They insist on clapping their Japanese counterparts on the back.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #88 on: December 20, 2018, 02:31:54 PM »
Three 20- something women here have told me that their moms turned them out for prescription opiates. 

And seriously, chaperones can be bribed. And the femenarchs Have been pushing really heavy in recent years that women “have to stick up for each other.  You can’t count on a reasonable seeming woman to testify against another woman, whether you’re the one being accused or whether it was the one in putting a roofie in your drink.

In Vegas asked a female bartender wash and say a thing to me about a girl putting a roofie in my drink and she flushed red and said the girls had to stick up for each other.  Yeah, they’ve come along way baby

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2018, 02:41:13 PM »
joking aside doesn't the fear 'Avoid Women at All Cost' - lead to sharia type laws.
You can't trust woman and you can't trust yourself with your own desires so you best control woman?

Oh and I'd also like to bring back witch trials. that way we could get even on all those woman looking to destroy us by claiming their witches. If they float we got them, if they drown... opps.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2018, 05:22:49 PM »
The Salem witch trials hanged men too, but they did certainly use the me-too rule of “always always believe the female victim of spectral abuse.  The witch trials were am rica’s First me too moment.  Don’t believe the modern feminarcs that pretend that the witch trials were only about female victimization.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 05:32:38 PM by Pete at Home »

TheDeamon

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2018, 06:50:03 PM »
IIRC, most(if not all) of the accusations regarding witchcraft in Salem came from women. But don't tell a feminist that.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2018, 09:42:03 PM »
IIRC, most(if not all) of the accusations regarding witchcraft in Salem came from women. But don't tell a feminist that.

Yup.  Contrary to leftish brainwashing, Salem's witch trials involved male and female "witches," while the accusers were overwhelmingly female.

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2018, 10:25:29 AM »
joking aside doesn't the fear 'Avoid Women at All Cost' - lead to sharia type laws.
You can't trust woman and you can't trust yourself with your own desires so you best control woman?

I think you are misunderstanding this part of the issue.  Pretty broad support behind women having the right to control themselves, and that the man is at fault for not controlling his desires.  That's the good side of the #MeToo movement, the side that we all should support.

But that has nothing to do with men making a rational judgment that the only way they can avoid being miscontrued as expressing an unwelcome desire against a backdrop where acuassations = proof is to avoid women entirely.  Telling a women she has to dress differently is directly contrary to that model, as you would (a) not be avoiding her, and (b) going directly out on a limb with conduct you know is easily interpretted as unwelcome, hostile and sex related.

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Oh and I'd also like to bring back witch trials. that way we could get even on all those woman looking to destroy us by claiming their witches. If they float we got them, if they drown... opps.

It's not a crime to be a witch.  What exactly would the trials be for?

If you love the witch trials, we still have them, we're just looking for people with "hateful" views.  Or do you think Kevin Hart really should have had to drop his Oscar's hosting gig for 10 year old jokes?  Even after he apologized?  Did you see the activists' demands that the apology shouldn't count, because he didn't go far enough, and what else he should have had to do (like devote 20 minutes of his routine to explaining how wrong he was)?  He might have preferred the sink or drown test.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 10:28:32 AM by Seriati »

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2018, 11:47:11 AM »
The part of the witch trials I was bring back was method of discerning quilt. If you sink your Innocent if you float your guilty.

I was of course kidding.

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But that has nothing to do with men making a rational judgment that the only way they can avoid being miscontrued as expressing an unwelcome desire against a backdrop where acuassations = proof is to avoid women entirely

Sadly it happens and both men and woman have misused the accusations... maybe we should avoid people entirely 

I disagree that avoiding women entirely is a rational judgment but instead is a extreme one, more likely to reinforce the problem. I believe, no I know, that we create what we fear more often then what we hope for.

For me a rational judgment would be to treat each other with respect. Yes false accusations are going to happen, yes real accusation won't be believed, yes the victim (one falsely accused or the one harmed and not believed) always comes out the losing end its why they are the victim.

I was once accused of having a affair with someones wife I actually never met. It was scary as the husband wanted a fight.
When he confronted in my doorway I sat down on the stoop and calmly told him he was mistaken. I didn't react the way he needed to fuel the anger that would have lead to the fight and he went away.

I was watching a show about a neighborhood that didn't trust the police and the police that didn't trust those in the neighborhood. Both sides had good reasons why they did not trust each other. However that distrust just fed the problem as every interaction started from a place of distrust that is how they ended.

There is a Buddhist practice, i think its Buddhist, where when you met someone give them a gift. the gift could be a silent blessing or good wishes. the theory is that in starting a interaction this way the outcome is more likely to be positive. Just as lowering your voice in a argument usually leads to calming voices on all sides.

You can live in fear of being falsely accused someday and so avoid women and maybe men to... for some people that might be for the best and keep them from reproducing. :0 But I would not call that a rational way of dealing with the real problem behind all this noise of man and woman being assaulted and no one being held accountable.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 11:53:47 AM by rightleft22 »

Fenring

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2018, 12:32:30 PM »
For me a rational judgment would be to treat each other with respect. Yes false accusations are going to happen, yes real accusation won't be believed, yes the victim (one falsely accused or the one harmed and not believed) always comes out the losing end its why they are the victim.

It's fine to talk about 'rational' as if people are philosophers always trying to solve life. But more often then that it's more useful to inspect the ecosystem, because even though individuals have the opportunity to be philosophers we can basically expect the ecosystem to dictate most aggregate behaviors. Put mechanics into place in the system and the result will follow on average. "Why can't people just be rational" is actually an irrational expectation.

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I was watching a show about a neighborhood that didn't trust the police and the police that didn't trust those in the neighborhood. Both sides had good reasons why they did not trust each other. However that distrust just fed the problem as every interaction started from a place of distrust that is how they ended.

Likewise, these scenarios don't come up out of the blue. You're right that there might be many ways to begin healing a neighborhood, however I don't believe it's clear that these situations 'just happen'. There are often very specific causes that can be identified, even though it might take many of these causes to completely shape the landscape. The one issue you're right about and deserves more recognition is how a systemic trend can snowball itself, like a virus, so that even a smallish initial phenomenon can result in a cascade, where party 1 responds harshly to party 2 behaving poorly, which then makes party 2 behave worse in turn, etc. But while we may 'hope' that both sides will just wake up, it really needs to be determined why party 2 began to act improperly in the first place. Even if individuals try to course correct out of the snowball, if that effect it still in place the trend will keep pushing in the bad direction anyhow.

Take money in politics: arresting a few bad actors solves nothing. Initiating investigations is a band-aid: cut off the source of corruption and all the individual instances attend to themselves.

rightleft22

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2018, 05:32:53 PM »
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"Why can't people just be rational" is actually an irrational expectation.

wasn't my argument.  I was  responding to to the statement. "But that has nothing to do with men making a rational judgment that the only way they can avoid being miscontrued as expressing an unwelcome desire against a backdrop where acuassations = proof is to avoid women entirely"

Which I felt was not a rational response  but a reaction coming from a place of fear and more likely to feed the problem.

You are right these situations don't come out of the blue. there is a long history of woman not having the same rights as men and taken advantage of without anyone being held accountable. Fighting that distrust with distrust isn't going to change anything.

Earlier I mentioned sharia law as a response to fear of woman. If a rational response about what is happening today is to avoid woman then I would not be surprised that the next rational response would be to regress and keep woman in the kitchen... but that would be bad for the economy so woman are probably safe. At least in the west... maybe not I've actually heard evangelicals make the suggestion that woman should stay home.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 05:42:50 PM by rightleft22 »

Seriati

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #97 on: December 21, 2018, 06:03:56 PM »
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"Why can't people just be rational" is actually an irrational expectation.

wasn't my argument.

I took your argument the same way Fenring did.

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I was  responding to to the statement. "But that has nothing to do with men making a rational judgment that the only way they can avoid being miscontrued as expressing an unwelcome desire against a backdrop where acuassations = proof is to avoid women entirely"

Which I felt was not a rational response  but a reaction coming from a place of fear and more likely to feed the problem.

It's a rational response, that doesn't mean it's the only rational response, or that it would be rational if the axioms up which it lays are untrue.

I felt like you were writing more of a persuasive piece, but I'm not personally afraid of women.  Not afraid of being in a closed room.  Not afraid of being misconstrued.  I don't need to be persuaded that I can still talk to people in the office.

On the other hand, I know people who I wouldn't every invite into a work place because they'd generate a harrasment claim the first day.  And I know lots of people (men and women) in between those polls.  Some of them are frankly, not smart enough to make good decisions about these issues.  But far as I can tell, dumb people still need jobs.  How do you retro train a good worker with a limited IQ?

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You are right these situations don't come out of the blue. there is a long history of woman not having the same rights as men and taken advantage of without anyone being held accountable. Fighting that distrust with distrust isn't going to change anything.

Correcting a wrong is right.  Twos wrongs is not right.

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Earlier I mentioned sharia law as a response to fear of woman. If a rational response about what is happening today is to avoid woman then I would not be surprised that the next rational response would be to regress and keep woman in the kitchen... but that would be bad for the economy so woman are probably safe. At least in the west... maybe not I've actually heard evangelicals make the suggestion that woman should stay home.

Not sure what type of axiom you'd have to include to make it rational to unwind womens' rights.  I think you'd have to include some kind of rejection of their personhood, and that's not something that most would agree is reasonable.

The axioms I was using are in fact reasonable.  The fear is not something that you can actually dictate, it's either there or its not.  The risk reward is also reasonable, one can very easily come to the conclusion that the benefits of maintaining a relationship with someone are less that the risks it will go sour.  If you look at any of the recent writing on this the disproportionate relationships are being hammered.  For example, young women are finding it harder to find males willing to act as mentors (there's a lot of benefit to the mentee and less to the mentor, while the risk of a claim is much greater to the mentor).  That's a reversal of a trend that was making it easier for them, and it's one that is very costly in terms of career advancement.

There are other examples you can read about - difficulty on getting staffed on high value opportunities that require travel (heck, even tales that co-workers won't book seats together on planes).  Getting passed over for small teams, or projects that require long hours one on one.  Even saw a training the other day that asserted women in leadership disproportionately get shuffled into service and committee roles rather than in positions with the opportunity to generate business.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 06:05:59 PM by Seriati »

TheDeamon

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #98 on: December 21, 2018, 06:51:10 PM »
The part of the witch trials I was bring back was method of discerning quilt. If you sink your Innocent if you float your guilty.

But potentially relevant in other ways, some of the biggest accusers were themselves previously accused, but they "repented" of their sins, confessed them(which gave them a pass), and then proceeded to level accusations against the multitude of other secret witches among their number.

Pete at Home

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Re: Avoid Women at All Cost
« Reply #99 on: December 21, 2018, 07:57:24 PM »
The part of the witch trials I was bring back was method of discerning quilt. If you sink your Innocent if you float your guilty.

But potentially relevant in other ways, some of the biggest accusers were themselves previously accused, but they "repented" of their sins, confessed them(which gave them a pass), and then proceeded to level accusations against the multitude of other secret witches among their number.

Kind of sounds like the basic method that modern cops and prosecutors use to generate new criminal cases.