Author Topic: Trump is doing some things I like  (Read 1431 times)

TheDrake

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Trump is doing some things I like
« on: December 19, 2018, 10:47:46 AM »
Trump is doing things I like lately, and it makes my brain hurt.

1. Bump Stock ban
2. Criminal justice reform
3. Aid to Mexico and Central America
4. Withdrawal from Syria

Meanwhile, it is making Trumper brains hurt too. They see it like this:

1. 2nd Amendment failure
2. Soft on crime
3. Globalism, giving money to corrupt governments
4. Unclear how they are taking this yet

TheDeamon

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2018, 11:56:51 AM »
Wait, isn't withdrawal from Syria kowtowing to Putin and the evil Russians? Sorry, Democrats can't support that because Russia.

Seriati

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2018, 12:02:42 PM »
It's not making my brain hurt.  I've been saying all along that his actual policies are more favorable to the left than they would have gotten with any other traditional Republican.  He's happy to make compromises, so long as you give him something he wants.

The idea that Trump is the "ultimate evil" is just delusion created by the media and Democrats to help their electoral chances.  They could have gotten material movement on policy issues that have been deadlocked for decades if they had decided to work with him instead of demonizing him.

Wayward Son

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2018, 12:16:45 PM »
So what did Trump get for these things, Seriati?

Fenring

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2018, 12:39:37 PM »
So what did Trump get for these things, Seriati?

Wheeling and dealing is not a matter of public public record.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2018, 12:54:17 PM »
Any recommended reading on #1, 2, and 3?  I've had some crazy life events this year (stalked, broken skull, moved houses to escape pissed off white supremacists, son beaten up, and most recently, interrogated and followed by cops over the suicide of my long time friend and roommate) and obviously need to catch up on the news.

Seriati

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2018, 12:57:17 PM »
What did Trump get?

1. Bump Stock ban

Popular "common sense" gun control credibility, on an issue that just restores the law that's been in place for decades (fully automatic weapons have been banned for a really long time, and that's all these conversions were for).

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2. Criminal justice reform

Legacy.  Actual justice for a bunch of people.  Big boost to his argument that his policies are better for those most impacted by an unfair justice system, which includes minorities, minor drug users and the poor.  Steals the Dem's thunder on an issue.

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3. Aid to Mexico and Central America

Leverage.  Trump's pro aid, he just rationally wants it tied to benefits and not provided agnostically to how the other party acts.

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4. Withdrawal from Syria

Satisfying an election promise.  Trump's been pretty open about believing that armed American intervention shouldn't happen.

On top of that he gets deals done, in ways that are hard to deny.  Shooting the media lie about his Presidency being somekind of failure in the foot.

Honestly, Wayward is any of this invisible to you?  For all I know he could have gotten more in the background as well.  Closing any deal feeds into his reputation as a closer. 

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2018, 01:08:29 PM »
Does anyone actually disagree that a greater number of US troops would be dead right now and also would have killed a greater number of nonAmerican civilians as of today, if Hillary Clinton had been elected POTUS?

I'll agree wholeheartedly that Trump's persona is an international embarrassment but just how many loyal and/or innocent people are we willing to kill to avoid embarrassment?  (The Clinton answer is "as many as it takes.")

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2018, 01:26:49 PM »
The Jimmy Carter answer seems to be, praise Trump for what he gets right and condemn him for his failures.

https://nypost.com/2018/05/22/carter-trump-could-be-worthy-of-nobel-peace-prize/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_3576414

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“If President Trump is successful in getting a peace treaty that’s acceptable to both sides with North Korea, I think he certainly ought to be considered for the Nobel Peace Prize,” the 93-year-old ex-president told Politico in an interview published Tuesday. “I think it would be a worthy and a momentous accomplishment that no previous president has been able to realize.”

But Carter, who was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002 for his ​work to promote humanitarian issues and free elections around the globe, criticized Trump for dealing a “blow to peace” in the Middle East by moving the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and for failing to deliver moral leadership.

rightleft22

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2018, 03:32:38 PM »
The withdraw from Syria makes sense to me. Russia 'won' that one, if one can to win in that part of the world.

Fenring

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2018, 03:38:36 PM »
The withdraw from Syria makes sense to me. Russia 'won' that one, if one can to win in that part of the world.

What do you think they won?

rightleft22

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2018, 03:42:22 PM »
more influence in the area. If that matters
not sure what you call it? sphere of influence. The US appears to be withdrawing? that's not a judgment no idea if its a good a bad thing 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 03:44:29 PM by rightleft22 »

TheDrake

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2018, 03:42:41 PM »
Perhaps Trump passed criminal justice reform because so many of his friends are going to jail.  ;D

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2018, 04:13:39 PM »
Perhaps Trump passed criminal justice reform because so many of his friends are going to jail.  ;D

Maybe Cincinnatus saved Rome and then gave up all power just because he enjoyed plowing is fields and his slaves. Who gives a frack? A good thing done is a good thing done.

Fenring

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2018, 04:41:27 PM »
more influence in the area. If that matters
not sure what you call it? sphere of influence. The US appears to be withdrawing? that's not a judgment no idea if its a good a bad thing

The U.S. is withdrawing from where, Syria? When did they ever have a presence in Syria that now they're losing? Unless you mean the very recent presence of troops "fighting ISIS"? But that was never meant to be a permanent presence anyhow...officially. And insofar as the U.S. used to have significant presence in Iraq, that was withdrawn voluntarily. So I'm curious what the U.S. has supposedly lost in that area that they had before. Or I could phrase it another way: what might you think they were hoping to gain that they failed to?

rightleft22

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2018, 05:14:44 PM »
In general - The US is withdrawing within it self, protectionism, walls, etc... it is  literally leaving the field (IMO)

My understanding was that the presences in Syria was more then just about ISIS - Kurd's, Turkey, Iran, Russia... I don't know political strategy

"Abandoning the American-backed Kurdish allies, Pentagon officials have argued, will hamper future efforts by the United States to gain the trust of local fighters, from Afghanistan to Yemen to Somalia"  Not sure how or if leaving Syria does that but that would be a example if it does.

Whatever, I think its good for the US to get out.

TheDrake

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2018, 05:41:26 PM »
God, if only local fighters wouldn't trust us. If the mujahideen hadn't trusted us maybe we wouldn't have turned them into the Taliban. Maybe we wouldn't have gotten involved with the Contras.

Military isolationism is very much my bag, baby. Although it doesn't really jibe with big increases in non-parade military spending.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2018, 09:13:49 PM »
From an Oliver Stone Untold history of the US perspective, ... you mean Drake? That’s a view i’m Testing as I work my way through the seroes

Seriati

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2018, 04:00:30 PM »
So the criminal justice reform bill passed today, by overwhelming margins.  That should lead to the obvious question, why if this bill was so overwhelmingly favored did it take the Trump Whitehouse advocating for it to get it drafted, to the floor and passed?  What is Congress actually doing if they can't self motivate to pass legislation that is that popular?  What else are they leaving on the table?

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2018, 04:53:09 PM »
So the criminal justice reform bill passed today, by overwhelming margins.  That should lead to the obvious question, why if this bill was so overwhelmingly favored did it take the Trump Whitehouse advocating for it to get it drafted, to the floor and passed?  What is Congress actually doing if they can't self motivate to pass legislation that is that popular?  What else are they leaving on the table?

Sometimes the whole system that supposed to protect us is so sold out and pimped over to the powers that be that it takes a madman to get something good passed.

rightleft22

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2018, 05:11:06 PM »
true - could you imagine Hillary getting the Bump Stock ban through. Not a chance.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2018, 05:18:41 PM »
true - could you imagine Hillary getting the Bump Stock ban through. Not a chance.

Quite true. But can you imagine Hillary even trying to get judicial reform through?  Or going two years as president without starting a new war?

TheDrake

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2018, 06:25:03 PM »
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true - could you imagine Hillary getting the Bump Stock ban through. Not a chance.

Um. Get it through... what? This is an ATF regulation change. Who exactly would have stopped her?

It is possible she would follow the Obama administration lead on these devices because of the unholy fury of negative opinion that would be leveled against her, that Trump is largely escaping.

LetterRip

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2018, 06:43:49 PM »
So the criminal justice reform bill passed today, by overwhelming margins.  That should lead to the obvious question, why if this bill was so overwhelmingly favored did it take the Trump Whitehouse advocating for it to get it drafted, to the floor and passed?  What is Congress actually doing if they can't self motivate to pass legislation that is that popular?  What else are they leaving on the table?

These are the same reforms that Democrats have been pushing forever, but Republicans have been concerned that they will be challenged in the primaries for 'looking weak on crime'.  What has changed is that evangelicals have changed from opposing sentencing reform to being on board with it.

https://religionnews.com/2017/06/20/evangelical-leaders-push-for-criminal-justice-reform/

https://www.npr.org/2018/05/20/612794585/for-trumps-evangelical-advisers-prison-reform-becomes-a-front-burner-issue

What caused the change in the position of evangelicals is the opiod crisis.  So instead of drugs being something that "only blacks, atheists and hippies" did; it was a problem that was common in the elderly that make up the evangelical congregations.

Grant

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2018, 08:04:25 PM »
I'm pretty sure that if Homer Simpson were elected President I could find some things about his administration that I would like.  I found things about the Clinton and Obama administrations that I liked.  I would probably have found things about a Hillary Clinton administration I would have liked. I personally believe that the ability to notice and admit that there are things that those with differing politics do that are positive are a good sign of anti-tribalism. 

That being said, it makes little difference to me on my judgement of a President, other than I'm not prone to believe that any particular one is the debil of foosbawl.  Homer Simpson, overall, is a moron, and would make a lousy President, unless he were the President of the Bandar-log.  I'd sooner vote for President Dwayne Alonso Mountain Dew Camacho.  Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama, in my opinion, had their faults.  I think there were better men available, but they were certainly better than someone picked at random from the phone book. 

No, I don't believe that Prressdieeeablahdfhdh Trump is the "Ultimate Evil".  Gimmie a break.  Dick Cheney was far more evil.  Trump is Admiral Ozzle to Cheney's Tarkin.  I'm simply waiting for a far more evil Republican or Democrat to force choke the fetid life out of him.  Given a forced choice between, say, Trump for President, and Ramsey Bolton for President, I'm pretty sure I'd vote for Trump.  Thankfully, it's never a binary choice, and one may always abstain. 

Bump stock ban?  Common sense due to the prohibition on automatic weapons.
The First Step Act?  A victory with plenty of credit to go around.  Basically, Trump's part was simply not to veto. 
Aid to Mexico and Central America?  Great idea.  Which leads me to believe that Trump probably wasn't involved.  At least no one explained to him that instead of Mexico paying for a US wall, the US is now paying Mexico and Central America to stave off immigration.  I'm all for it.  Especially since I can point this out to Trumpists.  Are they tired of winning yet? 

And Syria.  I will simply say that I appear to be in the minority here.  I think it's a horrible idea.  But I don't particularly blame Trump.  Honestly, if the wind blows from a different direction tomorrow, or if the turkey entrails tell different, Trump most likely will reverse himself.  He's not a dedicated non-interventionist in the vein of Rand Paul.  He's a weather vane.  It appears he got talked into this a the spur of the moment after a phone call with Erdogan. 

So, Republicans who have come out against the Syrian withdrawl:
Sen Graham
Sen Sasse
Sen Rubio
Sen Corker
I think basically everybody except *censored*ing Rand Paul. 

Democrats against the Syrian withdrawl:
Sen Kaine
Sen Shaheen
Maybe more.  Nancy Pelosi seems to be against it, just because she questions Trump's motives.

Oh yeah.  National Security personnel against the withdrawl:
General Keane
Sec (soon to be ex-secretary) of Defense Mattis

Allies against the withdrawl:
France
UK
Israel
Germany


I mean, basically, you have everyone in the world who knows anything on one side, and you have Rand Paul and every fragment, cur, and dissentious rogue rubbing the poor scab of their opinion.  Oh, and Pooter and Erdogan think it's a great idea.  I guess the Kurds are just *censored*ed.  Don't trust the United States of America. 


DonaldD

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2018, 09:20:20 PM »
The question, though, is whether this, with the likely government shutdown and with the latest Afghanistan announcement, will be enough to keep the Mueller headlines at bay?

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2018, 09:39:40 PM »
I'm pretty sure that if Homer Simpson were elected President I could find some things about his administration that I would like.  I found things about the Clinton and Obama administrations that I liked.  I would probably have found things about a Hillary Clinton administration I would have liked. I personally believe that the ability to notice and admit that there are things that those with differing politics do that are positive are a good sign of anti-tribalism. 

That being said, it makes little difference to me on my judgement of a President, other than I'm not prone to believe that any particular one is the debil of foosbawl.  Homer Simpson, overall, is a moron, and would make a lousy President, unless he were the President of the Bandar-log.  I'd sooner vote for President Dwayne Alonso Mountain Dew Camacho.  Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama, in my opinion, had their faults.  I think there were better men available, but they were certainly better than someone picked at random from the phone book. 

No, I don't believe that Prressdieeeablahdfhdh Trump is the "Ultimate Evil".  Gimmie a break.  Dick Cheney was far more evil.  Trump is Admiral Ozzle to Cheney's Tarkin.  I'm simply waiting for a far more evil Republican or Democrat to force choke the fetid life out of him.  Given a forced choice between, say, Trump for President, and Ramsey Bolton for President, I'm pretty sure I'd vote for Trump.  Thankfully, it's never a binary choice, and one may always abstain. 

Bump stock ban?  Common sense due to the prohibition on automatic weapons.
The First Step Act?  A victory with plenty of credit to go around.  Basically, Trump's part was simply not to veto. 
Aid to Mexico and Central America?  Great idea.  Which leads me to believe that Trump probably wasn't involved.  At least no one explained to him that instead of Mexico paying for a US wall, the US is now paying Mexico and Central America to stave off immigration.  I'm all for it.  Especially since I can point this out to Trumpists.  Are they tired of winning yet? 

And Syria.  I will simply say that I appear to be in the minority here.  I think it's a horrible idea.  But I don't particularly blame Trump.  Honestly, if the wind blows from a different direction tomorrow, or if the turkey entrails tell different, Trump most likely will reverse himself.  He's not a dedicated non-interventionist in the vein of Rand Paul.  He's a weather vane.  It appears he got talked into this a the spur of the moment after a phone call with Erdogan. 

So, Republicans who have come out against the Syrian withdrawl:
Sen Graham
Sen Sasse
Sen Rubio
Sen Corker
I think basically everybody except *censored*ing Rand Paul. 

Democrats against the Syrian withdrawl:
Sen Kaine
Sen Shaheen
Maybe more.  Nancy Pelosi seems to be against it, just because she questions Trump's motives.

Oh yeah.  National Security personnel against the withdrawl:
General Keane
Sec (soon to be ex-secretary) of Defense Mattis

Allies against the withdrawl:
France
UK
Israel
Germany


I mean, basically, you have everyone in the world who knows anything on one side, and you have Rand Paul and every fragment, cur, and dissentious rogue rubbing the poor scab of their opinion.  Oh, and Pooter and Erdogan think it's a great idea.  I guess the Kurds are just *censored*ed.  Don't trust the United States of America.

Scratches head ... You'd give Obama a pass even though he refused to even ARM the Kurds while ISIS was making its gains ....  the Kurds lost territory only when they fraking ran out of BULLETS (thanks to Obama).  Trump AFAIK isn't talking about cutting the Kurds off from weapons.  I'd rather we left the 2000 guys there to advise and train them, although I'm more into having the Kurds train American GIs on how to work with female soldiers without raping them.

Grant

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2018, 10:20:38 PM »

Scratches head ... You'd give Obama a pass even though he refused to even ARM the Kurds while ISIS was making its gains ....  the Kurds lost territory only when they fraking ran out of BULLETS (thanks to Obama).  Trump AFAIK isn't talking about cutting the Kurds off from weapons.

What on earth gives you the idea that I would give or did give Obama a pass on that? 

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I'd rather we left the 2000 guys there to advise and train them

All the training and advice in the world isn't going to help Belgium stand against Germany.  Training and assisting means two things.  These people are your friends.  The people fighting them need to be defeated.  Saying you'll only train and assist means you're either incapable of doing more, or what exactly?



Pete at Home

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2018, 03:11:49 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't we have troops in Turkey as well?  Don't some of those troops engage in training Turkish troops?  By your dicto simpliciter, would that not mean (1) that we are "friends" with Turkey and (2) that those darn kurds need to be defeated?  I don't think so.  Surely we've been in this situation before.  Are you sure you have the doctrine right?



Fenring

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2018, 09:36:10 AM »
I mean, basically, you have everyone in the world who knows anything on one side, and you have Rand Paul and every fragment, cur, and dissentious rogue rubbing the poor scab of their opinion.  Oh, and Pooter and Erdogan think it's a great idea.  I guess the Kurds are just *censored*ed.  Don't trust the United States of America.

I think this view - that everyone in the world except Rand Paul agrees - is a result of carefully selected propaganda. *Everyone on the take* probably agrees, and if that's a lot of people then you'll be able to compile quite the list. But if "don't help the Kurds" translates to don't trust America, then that ship sailed many years ago. And the idea that non-interventionists are a vast minority sounds to me like a sign that this type of view has simply not had access to the microphone, whereas the other side is given prime time spots and loud voices to match.

The idea that we've come to the point where failing to attack some weaker country around the world can be viewed as a bad thing is beyond troubling to me. But I'll happily grant you that the issues in that area did not just begin, and that the feeling of "but what can we do" is a very relevant one. But if you're right that the vast majority of experts and so on believe that occupying Syria was the right move, you cannot then be right that Trump only pulled out due to how the wind was blowing; *unless* you mean how the wind was blowing among the regular population, rather than in Washington. And if *that* is the case, then your argument would have to be that Trump has decided to ignore a massive concept of interventionism in Washington and instead wants to hear what the people think. And if *that* is so then I can't help but applaud him for it. If only the Congress would behave in that way.

Seriati

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2018, 10:06:55 AM »
I'm pretty sure that if Homer Simpson were elected President I could find some things about his administration that I would like.

Donuts!  I once voted for a candidate in MA because of a negative add his opponent ran that said if candidate A was elected, it was donuts for everyone (childish reason to vote I know).

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I found things about the Clinton and Obama administrations that I liked.

Bill Clinton was the ultimate in moving to the popular side of every issue.  Hard to "dislike" a President that wanted to be on the winning side.  A bit risky if the unpopular course was the better one.

Maybe I am too partisan, I'm struggling to think of things I like under Obama.  I object less to his policies, than his methods.  He did more to establish an Imperial Presidency than anyone before, luckily anti-Trump hate (and better princpals on this point by Trump) are doing an awful lot to start to unwind that.

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I would probably have found things about a Hillary Clinton administration I would have liked.

Clinton is the ultimate swamp dweller.  She would have promoted some top line things I hated and the left raved about, but behind the scenes she would have been ruthless and unethical in promoting the corporatist future of America, screwing other the little guy in every way they couldn't see imaginable.

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I personally believe that the ability to notice and admit that there are things that those with differing politics do that are positive are a good sign of anti-tribalism.

I can respect those I think mean well, even if they are misguided.  I don't see much of that on the left.  I can't recall the last time a Democrat took a principalled vote on a controversial issue against their party.

I mean Kavanaugh is a good example, the only Democrat that voted for him came from a deep Trump state in an election year.  There was nothing about his qualifications that were lacking, nor was there enough certainty around ethics from an unproven accusation that this should have been a party line vote.   But it goes beyond that, look at border security - why is that party line?  Majority of Democrats as well as everyone else think it's an issue to address.

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Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama, in my opinion, had their faults.  I think there were better men available, but they were certainly better than someone picked at random from the phone book

Tsk, tsk, better men?  Don't you mean people, lest you exclude women, and the other 26 modern gender identifications.

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The First Step Act?  A victory with plenty of credit to go around.  Basically, Trump's part was simply not to veto.

Not sure why you think that, most of the media write ups credit the substantial efforts of the white house, specifically Jared Kushner in getting it to happen.  Again, it seems to be that even a no brainer can't originate from the body politic that is supposed to be concerned with making laws.
 
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And Syria.  I will simply say that I appear to be in the minority here.  I think it's a horrible idea.  But I don't particularly blame Trump.  Honestly, if the wind blows from a different direction tomorrow, or if the turkey entrails tell different, Trump most likely will reverse himself.  He's not a dedicated non-interventionist in the vein of Rand Paul.  He's a weather vane.  It appears he got talked into this a the spur of the moment after a phone call with Erdogan.

I didn't say I agreed with him.  I'm blatantly pro-intervention.  My solution to every claim that we have to hurt ourselves to support harmed people is that instead we should be addressing the harms directly.  I see no basis for us to take a position like for example, that it should be illegal to beat your wife, and then treat laws in another country that allow them to beat their wives as a "cultural difference" we have to respect. 

But, I disagree with you on Trump.  He's been consistent about wanting to reduce American military involvement outside of the country.  He's not a Rand, he's pragmatic, with what seems to be a strong view (which is consistent with history) that the type of intervention we actually pursue hurts our long term interests more, generally, that it helps our short term.

I mean really look at Syria.  Do we have enough forces there to win?  No.  Would putting that level of force into play put us into direct conflict with major powers?  Yes.  What exactly are we doing then?  We seem to be propping up players who can't actually win.  Why?  Presumably, we hope to force a negotiation at some point where we can get some concessions from the government that will be in charge and may be a puppet of a foreign power.

Am I misunderstanding that?

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I guess the Kurds are just *censored*ed.  Don't trust the United States of America.

No one should ever trust America on long term policies.  We have far too many reward incentives built in that cause us to flip policies every four years to make the other team look bad.

rightleft22

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2018, 12:11:43 PM »
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No one should ever trust America on long term policies.

I would agree with that which is why I think its best for America to withdraw. I 'm not sure if that its best for US security or business but if your not going to reliably stand for anything time to go home.

Pete at Home

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2018, 12:58:54 PM »
 I feel bad for the Kurds, but not as bad as I would’ve felt if they were screwed because they had trusted us.   The Kurds didn’t really have a choice whether to work with us.   They were already screwed when we came along.  We help to keep them alive, what, 20 years longer than they would have otherwise survived?   I’d rather we help them get by.   Hell, I’d be tickled if they manage to  Unifi and form their own state. Carve a new Kurdistan out of a Ron, turkey, and the rock.   If we really do abandon them the way that Grant seems to think we are, then this wouldn’t be such a bad time for them to do exactly that.

 Little old Saddam,
 Sat on his bottom ,
 Eating his Kurds and Shiites,
 Along came the bushiest,
 And kicked Saddam’s Tushy,
And set the whole region alight.

 Granted, anyone, did any of you really think that this story was going to have a happy ending?

Bite the bullet. This is going to hurt like hell.

Fenring

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2018, 01:19:56 PM »
Quote
No one should ever trust America on long term policies.

I would agree with that which is why I think its best for America to withdraw. I 'm not sure if that its best for US security or business but if your not going to reliably stand for anything time to go home.

And then there is Hillary's take on it:

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/422456-hillary-clinton-slams-trumps-syria-withdrawal-this-president-is

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“Actions have consequences, and whether we’re in Syria or not, the people who want to harm us are there & at war. Isolationism is weakness. Empowering ISIS is dangerous. Playing into Russia & Iran’s hands is foolish. This President is putting our national security at grave risk,” she tweeted.

This, coming from Hillary, should be the gold stamp on Trump's decision to leave. I can't believe at this point that people will buy into this kind of delusional nonsense. ISIS was *never* a threat to America, but it was indeed a menace in that region, and the menace was one *directly advantaging America* at every step. Hillary (and Obama) put zero efforts into fighting ISIS, made it very clear that they hoped ISIS would win over Assad and take over Syria, and that 'maybe' the U.S. would deal with ISIS after taking out the leader they wanted gone. She also wanted a no-fly zone to prevent Russia from helping Assad to fight ISIS. Now she says that ISIS is dangerous, *after they are already defeated*. And that's put into the same thought as mentioning that this plays into Russia & Iran's hands. Really? Is that supposed to mean that ISIS was on their side too? That's funny, since ISIS was propped up by the Saudis, who are the direct opponents of Russia and Iran. But of course none of this tweet is really supposed to make sense, and is only meant to push a narrative and agenda to further war and arms sales. The actual logic in this narrative makes about as much sense as your average Trump tweet, but because her statement lines up with a popular narrative it won't be called out for being "more lies" told by someone important, even though in the scale about what it's lying about this is orders of magnitude worse than Trump barking nonsense about his real estate ventures or deals with Air Force One.

Wayward Son

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2018, 03:55:21 PM »
Fenring, you make it sound like there were only two sides in Syria, Assad and ISIS.  AFAIK, that's nonsense.

There were multiple sides in that conflict.  Coalitions were formed and then disbanded, with "friends" often becoming enemies once an objection was obtained.

AFAIK, we never supported ISIS.  We supported other groups that were fighting Assad, however, since Assad was just as bloody and murderous as ISIS, in the hopes that these moderate groups (that would fight ISIS once the conflict was over, if not during the conflict) would eventually prevail.

And now Trump has decided to let it all go to hell.  Let Assad or ISIS win, he doesn't care.  Let Russia and Iran gain control and influence, he doesn't care.  We beat ISIS.  Mission Accomplished.  Nothing to see here, folks.

I'm not on top of all the geopolitical aspects of the Syrian situation, so I'm not going to argue whether this was a good move or not.  I just feel assured that I know more than Trump does.  And I am certain that General Mattis knows more than everyone on this board combined.  So if he's upset, we should at least be worried.

Fenring

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2018, 04:35:08 PM »
Fenring, you make it sound like there were only two sides in Syria, Assad and ISIS.  AFAIK, that's nonsense.

There were multiple sides in that conflict.  Coalitions were formed and then disbanded, with "friends" often becoming enemies once an objection was obtained.

While there may not have strictly been 'two sides' to the issue, the concept of "multiple sides" all having disparate and strong positions in the conflict has always struck me as being a nonsensical and ultimately self-serving narrative. By claiming there were many factions it makes it very easy, for instance, to support any side at all and then claim you're not with the bad guys; or to give support to 'rebels' and then claim you're certainly not working with Al Qaeda (under a re-branded name). For the most part the media narratives about this have never made sense, and in fact have seemed mostly to almost encourage an inability to clarify anything going on. The more smoke the better, it has seemed when I followed these matters. For the most part I don't think the fighting in that area has been all that complicated. After all, how many powerful and well-backed factions could there actually be when facing up against a longstanding government?

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AFAIK, we never supported ISIS.  We supported other groups that were fighting Assad, however, since Assad was just as bloody and murderous as ISIS, in the hopes that these moderate groups (that would fight ISIS once the conflict was over, if not during the conflict) would eventually prevail.

Tbh I'm not going to get into this here and now, because it cannot avoid the inevitable citation war such as just happened with Seriati in another thread. Any claim made will be met with a request for cited proof, which doesn't exist in the form it will be requested, so perhaps better not to go down that road. Suffice it to say that when Putin stated bluntly that ISIS was being fueled by members of the G20, I believe this was an entirely accurate and also self-serving truth that he told. How or in what way this support came would be up to you to research in you were interested. I've already been trying to look into this for years, to some degree of success; but it's a slog I can tell you.

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And now Trump has decided to let it all go to hell.  Let Assad or ISIS win, he doesn't care.  Let Russia and Iran gain control and influence, he doesn't care.  We beat ISIS.  Mission Accomplished.  Nothing to see here, folks.

Just remember that this claim could be made about literally any non-intervention policy. "If we don't occupy XYZ territory it will go to hell!"or "Bad guys are there! We have to go kick butt or it will go to hell!" It's easy to say, but remember when Democrats were up in arms with Bush 43 at wanting to do just that without having an "exit plan"? In other words, what's the long-term goal that will be put into place to make the world a better place, instead of killing bad guys and letting other unknown bad guys take their place? And PS - it's no secret that the "Assad must go" goal was basically shared by many parties during Obama's Presidency, including most of the GOP candidates that lost against Trump, and including especially Hillary. When evaluating who the U.S. was or wasn't supporting never forget that, or that Al Qaeda used to be U.S. assets fighting other bad guys in Afghanistan until they were no longer politically viable.

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I'm not on top of all the geopolitical aspects of the Syrian situation, so I'm not going to argue whether this was a good move or not.  I just feel assured that I know more than Trump does.  And I am certain that General Mattis knows more than everyone on this board combined.  So if he's upset, we should at least be worried.

What if (hypothetically) General Mattis is a corrupt person on the take from military industry and would like to trade lives for dollars? I'm not making this claim, but let's say it's true by hypothesis: what would you say then about his knowledge and expertise? Surely it can't stand as a mark of trust in him that excellence is put to bad use. If anything, the more competent a corrupt person is the worse things are for us. Imagine complimenting Stalin on his thoroughness, for example: it's not something to celebrate! So this appeal to Mattis' authority could only ever be warranted if (a) he really is expert and wise, and (b) actually has the same priorities you do. Either of these, if false, ought to sink your desire for him to have his way.

rightleft22

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2018, 12:34:48 PM »
Interesting argument Fending
By your hypothesis no one can be trusted so all choices are as good as any other?

Fenring

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Re: Trump is doing some things I like
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2018, 02:36:05 PM »
Interesting argument Fending
By your hypothesis no one can be trusted so all choices are as good as any other?

Can you provide a link between this interpretation of what I wrote, and what I wrote? If my comments came off sounding like this I'd like to know why so I can be more clear next time.

But to answer, in any case, some choices are very bad, and some are very good; at other times maybe all choices are questionable but then perhaps one just makes a strategic choice. Should it come as a surprise to you that parties that stand to directly gain from certain choices will paint the other choices as "helping the bad guys"? This should lead you to conclude the opposite of what you thought I said: one must sift the data to determine what the actual good choices and bad choices are, and ignore what you're being told are the good and bad choices by the media. Why would you ever trust someone with skin in the game about what you should believe? That does not mean you should believe nothing, or anything at all.