Author Topic: Misleading or false claims by the media  (Read 36839 times)

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2019, 06:04:44 PM »
How would you rewrite it? I guess this might call it out more clearly (along with an edit to remove the highly misleading openly gay comment)

In May of last year, the Catholic diocese ruled just hours before Holy Cross High School’s graduation that the valedictorian [Christian Bales] and the student council president could not give their planned speeches at Holy Cross, one the schools run by the Covington diocese, official graduation ceremony.

The fact that the same people run both schools is relevant. They made the decision to cancel the the speech, the same people made the decision to give permission and promote the Right to Life march.

If someone wrote a story about a teacher who got fired for their conservative views, and then they interviewed someone else at a different school in the district, would you be up in arms? Regardless of whether that teacher had an axe to grind, or faced discipline that might or might not have anything to do with those views?

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #101 on: January 23, 2019, 06:26:53 PM »
Mostly, I think they frantically cast around to find any warm body to talk to. Like when I saw Tom Clancy giving an interview on terrorism shortly after 9/11.

Of course, my school didn't even let us wear ballcaps regardless of the logo, but that was a different generation.

I remember the Tom Clancy interview on 9/11, he was doing good for the first couple minutes then he ran of the rails and straight into crazy conspiracy town live on National TV. The look on the Anchor's face was comedy gold as I recall, they quickly segwayed into another segment.

As to the MAGA Caps, they were there for Women's March, obviously they went to the Conservative one rather than the Liberal one, and someone thought MAGA attire was a great idea.

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #102 on: January 24, 2019, 10:04:58 AM »
How would you rewrite it?

First of all, this wasn't random.  Bales story was covered nationally last year, and it would have popped up when they searched for Covington.  It was a story the media wanted you to care about.  As I see it, it boiled down to the following:

Catholic School kid submits speech from graduation inconsistent with church teachings.

School prohibits speech.

Dispute about whether speech was timely submitted, which ordinarily is probably a technicality, but here could have been true because Bales knew they would reject it and was trying to game the system (or for any number of innocent reasons).

Why bring that up?  Cause the story didn't get the viral attention the media wanted it to have with it's anti-Catholic message.  To paraphrase a former President, never let a good crisis go to waste.

Better question, why bring up Holy Cross at all?  Is there any evidence that they were co-run (doesn't seem to be), I have 2 different catholic schools in my town, and as far as I can tell the closest level of common management could be in Rome.  Is the implication that it's proof of "guilt" at one school that the other had an issue - that isn't even remotely related (rejecting a speech at a catholic school for being inconsistent with catholic doctrine has nothing to do with this).  Would you take it as evidence that someone is guilty of murder that their second cousin was accused of a different murder a year earlier?  Or that a girl probably wasn't assaulted because the other girls that live on her street are prostitutes?

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I guess this might call it out more clearly (along with an edit to remove the highly misleading openly gay comment)

This isn't an "I guess" situation.  In a context where the sole reason the story is written now is to impute community guilt to Covington, Kentucky and more particularly the Catholics that live there, a reference that is designed to make the casual reader confused is manipulative.

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In May of last year, the Catholic diocese ruled just hours before Holy Cross High School’s graduation that the valedictorian [Christian Bales] and the student council president could not give their planned speeches at Holy Cross, one the schools run by the Covington diocese, official graduation ceremony.

"Just hours before..." makes it sound like they did something unreasonable, yet the published accounts from the school say the speech was submitted late.  How reasonable is that focus without context?  Intentional manipulation.

Why throw in "openly gay" at all?  Pretty clear that the implied bias in that loaded formulation didn't stop him from attending the school or becoming its valedictorian, which lest we forget almost certainly meant that teachers had opportunities to apply subjective grading - like on essays - that could have derailed him.  So the implication there is more likely than not just a dog whistle, ergo intentional manipulation.

"..and the student body president.." "their  planned speeches"  The student body president isn't named - why is that - nor is there any reference to her sexual orientation - why is that - only that her speech was also prevented - why is that.  It's because both speeches were barred for being inconsistent with catholic doctrine, which should have been a no brainer at a Catholic School graduation.  But that part of the story undercuts the message that the people of Covington are bad, by putting forward a rational alternative explanation that most people might believe was the real truth, and not therefore want the author wanted to happen.  Ergo, they wrote it to intentionally manipulate instead.

And then we get to the "at the Covington school's" graduation.  In an article that is only being published and relevant to the conversation because of a controversy involving Covington Catholic High School, which is what brought people to this article in the first place.  It leads a quick reader to confuse the two (as I did).  But more significantly, to write it in that way, instead of the more common "at Holy Cross's" graduation also reflects an intentional decision about the important part of the information to convey, was "Covington" not "Holy Cross."  If Holy Cross had been in the same diocese and in a different town, it would have been written differently (probably with reference to the "Covington diocese").  That's an intentional manipulation.

No one should have to unpack a single sentence to that level to see the bias it's built in.

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The fact that the same people run both schools is relevant. They made the decision to cancel the the speech, the same people made the decision to give permission and promote the Right to Life march.

Is it true though?  Can you show that the "same people" made these different decisions?  Pretty sure the catholic church's policy on abortion is set in Rome not Covington diocese.

I think the idea that a religious school would allow kids to protest consistent with their faith is not a troubling matter.  I found it far more troubling that public schools excused absences connected with children leaving to protest a Constitutional right (the right to bear arms) and even engaging in shaming of students who refused to go.  Why are people more bothered now?

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If someone wrote a story about a teacher who got fired for their conservative views, and then they interviewed someone else at a different school in the district, would you be up in arms?

If a conservative person was fired, and they wrote a story on how a teacher's pro life club was refused funding from a different school in the district a year earlier, I'd pretty look at the person as stupid for connecting unrelated actions, particularly as the linked item had nothing to do with the current issue.  How about you?

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Regardless of whether that teacher had an axe to grind, or faced discipline that might or might not have anything to do with those views?

There's nothing about my view that ignores context.  Meanwhile linking the Holy Cross story can only be done by ignoring all context.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #103 on: January 24, 2019, 10:38:13 AM »
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I found it far more troubling that public schools excused absences connected with children leaving to protest a Constitutional right (the right to bear arms) and even engaging in shaming of students who refused to go.  Why are people more bothered now?

I don't disagree with that. I would also be upset about that, and especially if they hired a bus with district money to bring them to the protest.

I don't much like it that students were running around protesting with striking teachers in LA.

On the rest of it, I'm just never going to see it from your perspective. I understand you don't like the narrative that the people of Covington are a bunch of backward conservatives, any more than other people don't like it when people at Universities are portrayed as a bunch of radical progressives bent on destroying America. It isn't possible to write any story completely devoid of some perspective.

I could bicker and argue point by point, but I don't think that's going to progress anywhere useful. I definitely agree that this is not an example of good journalism. We just disagree on the level of badness and outrage.

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #104 on: January 24, 2019, 10:52:39 AM »
I don't care one way or the other about the narrative that the people of Covington, Kentucky are backwards conservatives.  Unlike many, I've been to Kentucky and the areas there round.

What troubles me is the intellectual inconsistency.  How someone can easily see the argument that how a woman dresses has no merit in determining if she was assaulted or not, yet, not see that the idea that labeling the people of a town as "bad" has no merit in determining if they were mistreated in another context.

I shouldn't be surprised, it's the logical extension of the idea for instance that it's okay to punch a Nazi because Nazi's shouldn't have rights, but it's a huge fall from the American ideal that - at one point - had the ACLU defending the rights of Nazi's to march, because it was the right thing to do.

There is literally nothing about declaring the people of Covington bad, other than as a dog whistle that shows the liberal original sin that can never be debated, that is relevant to understand who was at fault.  The fact that we aren't having a national discussion about black adult activists making racist attacks on children, or that if the kids were native Americans and the man with a drum had been white this story would have been even bigger news and flipped on its head as to who was at fault, is incredibly depressing. 

D.W.

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #105 on: January 24, 2019, 11:41:51 AM »
Headlines should have read:  "Multiple groups of agitators with differing political views act poorly towards each other"

None of them were blameless.  None of them paragons of virtue.  None of them victims.  All of them looking to prove their views/morality is "the best" and things got messy.  But... not violent.  So there's that.

The End

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #106 on: January 24, 2019, 12:03:12 PM »
Headlines should have read:  "Multiple groups of agitators with differing political views act poorly towards each other"

No they shouldn't have.  That's a lie of the left, whenever they get caught engaging in bad behavior the media recharacterizes as a problem we "all" have.

If there were to be any headlines, it should have been:

"School kids on field trip harassed by racists who picked on them because of their skin color."

or,

"Media activists create misleading article based on photo out of context."

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None of them were blameless.

No one is blameless, but in this context the kids have no blame.

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None of them paragons of virtue.

No one is a paragon of virtue, but in this case we have actual racists on one side - which per the understanding based on Trump's statement that there were good people on both sides, should mean clearly that the racists can not have "good people" on their side.  Or is that lesson also one sided?

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None of them victims.

The boys were literally victims in this encounter, subjected to racial attacks.  They were also victims of an activist media - there were literal calls to have them suspended that their administrators back home were carrying through on until the the full truth came out.

Again a real consequence barely averted by the truth because of the lies of adults.

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All of them looking to prove their views/morality is "the best" and things got messy.  But... not violent.  So there's that.

The End

Lack of violence doesn't excuse this.  We all have the RIGHT to try and prove in the market place of ideas that our views are the best.  Period.  That's not an excuse for this behavior.

D.W.

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #107 on: January 24, 2019, 01:15:41 PM »
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If there were to be any headlines, it should have been:

"School kids on field trip harassed by racists who picked on them because of their skin color."
Which tells, part of the story.

That you find the kids blameless is a difference in opinion.

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Lack of violence doesn't excuse this.
Didn't say that it excused anything.  Was just glad it wasn't worse.

It could have been.  I think Nathan would have been better served getting in the faces of the group trying to bait the kids rather than the kids themselves but here we are.  Maybe that choice, was the least bad decision.  Maybe he just got drawn to the MAGA hat like a moth to a flame, IDK.

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"Media activists create misleading article based on photo out of context."
Maybe "media activist sees opportunity to ignite controversy", but context didn't change my opinion much.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #108 on: January 24, 2019, 01:56:08 PM »
I will absolutely agree that the headline should have read "Radical racial supremacy group verbally assaults students at national mall". Then interviewed someone from SPLC about the fact that these groups "condemn whites as evil personified, deserving only death or slavery". Then talk to the FBI about how close the resemblance is to white supremacist groups.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #109 on: January 24, 2019, 02:11:07 PM »
Breitbart:

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Missouri Gym Owner: Veteran’s ‘Offensive’ Trump Shirt Made Patrons ‘Uncomfortable’

Seems like NBC isn't the only one who likes to highlight someone's veteran status in an irrelevant context.

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #110 on: January 24, 2019, 02:41:54 PM »
Breitbart:

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Missouri Gym Owner: Veteran’s ‘Offensive’ Trump Shirt Made Patrons ‘Uncomfortable’

Seems like NBC isn't the only one who likes to highlight someone's veteran status in an irrelevant context.

Depends on the T-Shirt, being a Vet, and part of the crewmembers association's facebook page for the Ship I served on, I get to see a LOT of the t-shirt offerings that cater towards veterans.

There ARE plenty of T-Shirt offering running from "potentially offensive" to "obviously offensive" which also make it very clear the T-shirt is intended to be worn by a Veteran. So in other words, the Shirt also makes it clear the person wearing it either is, or should be a Veteran, while also going about being offensive to certain groups.

So "Veteran wears offensive T-Shirt" may be very relevant.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #111 on: January 24, 2019, 02:55:39 PM »
Good points, but it was just a generic campaign shirt. Breitbart's manipulation was that you should be even more outraged because it happened to a veteran (TYFYS).

Lloyd Perna

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #112 on: January 24, 2019, 03:56:03 PM »
Shouldn't you be more outraged because it happened to a Veteran?  That Veteran offered his life to protect his (and your) right to express his political support by wearing that t-shirt.

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #113 on: January 24, 2019, 04:16:44 PM »
Shouldn't you be more outraged because it happened to a Veteran?  That Veteran offered his life to protect his (and your) right to express his political support by wearing that t-shirt.

Depends on context. Generally speaking, Verteran status shouldn't matter at all. Only instance where things differ is Veteran Specific Entitlements, and instances where Veteran status was being used to deny services or otherwise be a jerk. Do note: That cuts both ways, much like some minorities use their minority status as an excuse to be ---wipes (like those "black hebrews" last weekend), some veterans use their status as veterans to be wipes as well.

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #114 on: January 26, 2019, 08:51:04 PM »
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Also related to that, why did the popular media seem compelled to also always describe the Tribal Elder as "A Vietnam Veteran and Tribal Elder" as though they were trying to make confrontation also about the Elder's Veteran status? Particularly given it looked like he was in Tribal Regalia and likely wasn't wearing anything that most people would be able to use to identify him as a Veteran from Vietnam?

It’s a way to build more sympathy for Phillips, make him seem double plus deserving of respect based on the way he was treated when he returned from the jungles of Vietnam. It fluffs up the story, put a little more meat on the bone.

Except, like so much of this story, it’s mostly a lie. Phillips was a marine. Thats true. Everything else is bull*censored*. He was a refrigerator mechanic, stationed in Topeka KS, Lincoln NB, and Southern California.  He never went outside the continental US. He went AWOL 3 times. After 4 years, he separated as a private. This is the military record of a *censored* up. By playing off vietnam veteran status, claiming to be a recon ranger(LOL), he’s engaging in stolen valor.

The whole stry is one massive lie by the media.

Update on Mr. Phillips, he's no stranger to protests, he's been doing the protester/activist thing for years now.

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3016299

Lost the link to the article, but there is news archival media showing him present protesting the Dakota Access Pipeline among other things.

Did love the Facebook Video Feed of him leading a march trying to enter the National Cathedral in Washington last weekend, where one of his talking points was the Catholic Church apologize for its role in the abuse of Native Americans in the United States... Uh, not sure what history books he's been reading, but the Catholic Church only held meaningful power in portions of the United States that previously belonged to France, Spain, and/or Mexico in the past, and once it was part of the United States, that influence didn't tend to go very far for a long time...

DJQuag

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #115 on: January 27, 2019, 07:57:29 PM »
Regardless of what happened in the long term, the Spanish Empire came in and did a lot of harm to native people. A whole lot of that was under the cloak of their church.

No matter who controls the land today, I can't find fault with him calling out the Catholic Church.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #116 on: January 28, 2019, 12:49:41 AM »
With this point:

Spanish Empire came in and did a lot of harm to native people.

And then this:

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A whole lot of that was under the cloak of their church.

I find it stunning that you then make this conclusion:

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No matter who controls the land today, I can't find fault with him calling out the Catholic Church.

That's like saying that powerful people in Washington have done bad things to foreign people, and that they often do so under the cloak of being Christians (such as Bush43 claiming to be doing God's work), and that therefore the Christian faith is to blame for Iraq 2.0.

Sigh.

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #117 on: January 28, 2019, 07:23:45 AM »
Regardless of what happened in the long term, the Spanish Empire came in and did a lot of harm to native people. A whole lot of that was under the cloak of their church.

No matter who controls the land today, I can't find fault with him calling out the Catholic Church.

Tha majority was done under the cloak of royal power. Give that a pass, go straight to the favoted stalking horse.

I’m continually amazed at how the left has such hatred for christianity and love of islam.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #118 on: January 28, 2019, 09:07:05 AM »
I'm continually amazed at how the right is terrified of sharia law, but constantly promote how Christianity should inform our politics.

D.W.

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #119 on: January 28, 2019, 09:13:11 AM »
Not to derail anything, but can you toss out a quick example or two of the love for Islam by the left? 

There's obviously a lot of people trying to reign back in open vilification of all practitioners of a religion, but there's little to "love" IMO.  I won't try and contest your assertion of hate for Christianity.  I am certainly no fan.  (though hate is too strong a word)  And most people I know are Christians, (to one degree of upbringing or practice) and I don't hate them because of it.

In so far as Islam may be spoken FOR and Christianity against by some on the left, I believe it's to drive home their desire for a secular government.  'Obviously' we aren't open equally to ALL religion, so therefore we should strive to curtail the power/influence of ALL religion.  So they may "love" having an object lesson, but do you think they see something they love in the teachings of Islam as a whole?  As in, more so than Christianity?  (seems a stretch to me)

NobleHunter

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #120 on: January 28, 2019, 09:34:23 AM »
I know Church made some notable protests to the Spanish crown over treatment of natives in the New World. But that was relatively early on and I don't know the more recent history.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #121 on: January 28, 2019, 11:14:57 AM »
In the US, the catholic church was indeed a minority and one with relatively little power. They did join the bandwagon along with the protestants as far as forced conversion, participating wholeheartedly. They are not uniquely culpable, but they definitely bear some responsibility.

This started with Christopher Columbus, so it pretty much goes all the way back to the beginning of the colonial era.

Recent popes have denied any wrongdoing.

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But unlike his ultimate apology for his words on Islam, Benedict’s response also repeated his contention that Catholicism in South America had favorably “shaped their culture for 500 years.”

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #122 on: January 28, 2019, 11:28:49 AM »
In the US, the catholic church was indeed a minority and one with relatively little power. They did join the bandwagon along with the protestants as far as forced conversion, participating wholeheartedly. They are not uniquely culpable, but they definitely bear some responsibility.

As with anything, many humans start problems and do dumb things. This isn't an institutional problem, but a general one of the species. That any Church organization would be guilty of the same should come as no surprise. However as with all things, the history of these matters is never as simplistic as it's bandied about in popular culture. Every time I hear detailed accounts of anything ranging from European colonialism, to Imperialist views of native people, to religious persecution, the details always draw out that the peoples of those times weren't the simple monsters we'd make of them. While it's no doubt true that human history is rife with real barbarism, it's never just as simple as X organization was evil or malevolent. Often there were factors in play that seemed to make sense to them at the time. It seems to me that for every instance of condemning past humanity of atrocity there an equal measure of recognizing progress, along with the conceit that because we are alive and they are dead that we are inherently superior in all ways and can glibly call ourselves enlightened as compared to their savagery. People of all ages have engaged in this kind of self-aggrandization.

D.W.

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #123 on: January 28, 2019, 11:37:41 AM »
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It seems to me that for every instance of condemning past humanity of atrocity there an equal measure of recognizing progress, along with the conceit that because we are alive and they are dead that we are inherently superior in all ways and can glibly call ourselves enlightened as compared to their savagery. People of all ages have engaged in this kind of self-aggrandization.
This is an interesting point.  I would suggest that it's not self-aggrandizement but fact, that in many ways we are indeed 'better' than those who came before.

The flip side is we have a tendency to look favorably upon our (more recent) past if that past is a time when our success, influence and power was waxing instead of waning. 

It's human nature to want to be judged as the most moral and most just when we are in power and that any change from that power balance is seen as a decline of morals and justice that must be stopped.  As such it's no shock that prominent religions are intimately tied with government policies that seek to retain power.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #124 on: January 28, 2019, 11:41:59 AM »
the peoples of those times weren't the simple monsters we'd make of them.

I think the bigger question is how the modern organization views and discusses those times. "We shouldn't have done that. We should have let everyone live in peace. We shouldn't have taken children away from their parents to teach them about the love of Christ. We were a bad influence, and ruined their lives. We should use this insight to examine our current choices, and avoid forcing our views on others."

We don't have to vilify the people of past times, we just shouldn't celebrate their bad actions.

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #125 on: January 28, 2019, 01:38:31 PM »
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I'm continually amazed at how the right is terrified of sharia law, but constantly promote how Christianity should inform our politics.

Watched a interesting discussion over the weekend about the Christian Evangelical political movement leaning to the Far Right. Having lost the general debate on abortion and gender issues (the majority are pro choice and gender options or don't care) want to use government to force everyone to live by their values.

Just my opinion but I'm seeing less and less differences between Islam imposing sharia law and what the Far Right Christian conservatives want to see happen



Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #126 on: January 28, 2019, 02:02:09 PM »
the peoples of those times weren't the simple monsters we'd make of them.

I think the bigger question is how the modern organization views and discusses those times. "We shouldn't have done that. We should have let everyone live in peace. We shouldn't have taken children away from their parents to teach them about the love of Christ. We were a bad influence, and ruined their lives. We should use this insight to examine our current choices, and avoid forcing our views on others."

We don't have to vilify the people of past times, we just shouldn't celebrate their bad actions.

That's not really what I'm talking about. You're still operating under the premise that they did bad things because they were morally/politically/intellectually inferior to us. Maybe D.W. is saying something like this, although I'm not quite sure. What I'm saying is that if you were literally there - for instance in a case where native peoples were exposed to disease, let's say, or where their education often took less than charitable forms - you might well realize that the devil is in the details. Looking bad with an evaluation of "they dominated people! they came and killed them with disease!" would surely be to ignore the historical context, what they thought they were trying to do, and how the results we now know really came about. No doubt some people back then meant very well, did the best they could with what they knew, and in fact behaved reasonably and even in an enlightened way; while others no doubt didn't care one way or the other, and their ignorance compounded with a cavalier sense of importance led to misadventures; and yet others were what we might call 'bad guys'. I don't think it's right to look back and decide that what they did was "obviously wrong". It might be to us, but in that time and place it might not have seemed so. Just like many things people now advocate for and defend vigorously may be looked upon in 400 years as being savage and ridiculous.

D.W.'s point may be that we are right - and so will be those who judge us - and such is progress. Perhaps so. The Trek believer in me hopes so. But that's not the same attitude as "but but crusades!" which often ends up being a catchall self-praise motif. Not really from anyone on these boards, mind you, but so often that it's sad. I guess my point is that there's a big difference between "if we now had the choice they had, we'd choose different", which is totally legit, and "they are guilty of wrongdoing!"

D.W.

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #127 on: January 28, 2019, 02:28:41 PM »
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You're still operating under the premise that they did bad things because they were morally/politically/intellectually inferior to us. 
The alternative is that those who manipulate the masses have just found easier/more profitable/more palatable methods to control us and to generate wealth and power.  They don't need to be (or take the risk of being) openly "evil" to achieve those ends.  That, theory depresses the *censored* out of me however, so I go with, "WE are better people now than those who came before."

But it's always about those in power setting the tone.  Like computers, garbage in – garbage out.  We are extraordinarily susceptible to indoctrination, tribalism and/or partisanship.  If you grow up being taught that a group is not equal to you or less than you or somehow deserve their situation, or the less vile belief that YOU deserve what you have because you are divinely chosen / loved... well it sure does make it easier to be lumped into that "obviously wrong" group.  And you'd likely never know what a POS you were without a few generations or miles distance away from that society.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #128 on: January 28, 2019, 03:05:07 PM »
Why is it hard to say they were inferior?

They were technologically inferior.
They were morally inferior.
They were philosophically inferior.
They were also super short.

All we can ask is to what degree it is their fault. But isn't that the same issue as looking at different cultures in our current world? That's like giving the Taliban a pass because in their culture it's okay to put someone to death for a variety of backward reasons. To them its a-ok.

It's not like other ideas were unknown in their time, the Quakers were out there.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #129 on: January 28, 2019, 03:47:29 PM »
They were technologically inferior.

Certainly.

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They were morally inferior.

While I do think there is such a thing as moral progress, I don't think it's nearly as obvious as many people do that we've made it since a few hundred years ago. What has changed is our means and capabilities, mass production, and vastly increased overall wealth due mostly to technology. Transplant that same environment to those people and I'm not certain that things would look that much different. It's counterfactual either way, but my general inclination is to believe that most of what makes us feel superior comes from social evolutions out of technological progress. I don't think the advances have significantly come from looking inwards and willing ourselves to be better; or at least, not in a vacuum. In some ways I would venture to guess that we're worse, insofar as individual self-delusion and entitlement go. And even those can probably be linked to technologies of various kinds.

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They were philosophically inferior.

On what ground do you say this? And I wouldn't dispute it outright as negating this would require a powerful argument from me; one that I'm not prepared to try to make. But I wonder about it. Are you sure it's clear to you how powerful an argument it would take to confidently make your statement?

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They were also super short.

We are definitely superior nutritionally.

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All we can ask is to what degree it is their fault. But isn't that the same issue as looking at different cultures in our current world? That's like giving the Taliban a pass because in their culture it's okay to put someone to death for a variety of backward reasons. To them its a-ok.

It's not like other ideas were unknown in their time, the Quakers were out there.

I agree with this type of idea, that cultural relativism should be discarded in the case of evaluating how absolutely well or poorly a culture is behaving. However I think that's different from blame. You can say that a wolf needs to be shot without calling it bad; and you can discipline a misbehaving child without needing to also imply that it's "guilty" of something. And I would agree that if we're to believe that progress is a real thing then we should suppose that evolution happens culturally as well as physiologically. So while "primitive" might be a reasonable moniker to apply to a certain type of civilization, "guilty" doesn't seem applicable merely in cases where the level of advancement is the issue. A well-intentioned primitive tribe might develop a tribal leadership and warfare system that a modern American city-mentality would call brutal and hostile. However calling them evil might well be well off-base, when in fact that might be a decent solution for the problems such a tribe would face. So in a modern context when looking at the Taliban, are they "primitive" (well-intentioned but lacking advancement) or "guilty" (know exactly what they're doing and have established vicious control because they can). And maybe these can, at times, be tough to separate, and in way that's the discussion I'm alluding to. I do firmly believe that sometimes brutal tactics may, at any rate, seem like they're reasonable and necessary, whereas at other times I also firmly believe that certain people know exactly what they're doing when they use and abuse others, and they do it because they can get away with it. I don't see any objection to calling the latter type "guilty", and so again the issue comes down not to whether the culture we're inspecting is behaving how we would prefer (few do, I suppose), but whether given all the facts we might fairly surmise that they're doing the best they reasonably can. I believe that a lot of historical "atrocities" were probably much more reasonable in context then we'd like to believe.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #130 on: January 28, 2019, 05:21:38 PM »



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They were philosophically inferior.

On what ground do you say this? And I wouldn't dispute it outright as negating this would require a powerful argument from me; one that I'm not prepared to try to make. But I wonder about it. Are you sure it's clear to you how powerful an argument it would take to confidently make your statement?

I'm speaking about new philosophical frameworks, including existentialism, objectivism, and marxism. Especially how they should guide us to treat one another. Add epistemology advances that help us to define the basis on which our law should rest, rather than "the church or king said so". These allow us to better evaluate our actions independently, rather than just blindly accepting how things ought to be.

Your point on technology is well-taken. Did we evolve a system of rules about warfare because we gained a greater respect for civilian life, or just because new technology made it possible to do what we would have done in the first place if we had the ability?

I claim moral superiority, because fewer people are willing to accept factories working people to death in various ways. Fewer people are willing to accept civilian casualties. Fewer people are willing to accept torture.

There is a fair point to make about how quickly the veneer of civilization can fall when resources become scarce. Witness the behavior of Fyre Festival attendees who went into immediate Lord of the Flies mode. Do we agree that no one should go hungry only because we have plenty to spare?

I think this strengthens rather than weakens the need for organizations and society at large to continually reaffirm these superior values. Sometimes, that takes the form of condemning the Acts committed by our ancestors, without necessarily condemning the individuals involved.

In this case the request is to apologize for past action that hurt someone else. Even a total accident can warrant an apology. We don't need to vilify all past generations to do so.

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #131 on: January 28, 2019, 07:13:23 PM »
Your point on technology is well-taken. Did we evolve a system of rules about warfare because we gained a greater respect for civilian life, or just because new technology made it possible to do what we would have done in the first place if we had the ability?

It was a response to technical capabilities existing, and having been demonstrated, that could wreck havoc on populations at a scale never seem previously.

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I claim moral superiority, because fewer people are willing to accept factories working people to death in various ways. Fewer people are willing to accept civilian casualties. Fewer people are willing to accept torture.

I call shenanigans on this one. The moment books on a given topic or other "education campaigns" started to happen making the wider public aware of many of these hazards was about the same time that efforts began to regulate and eliminate most of those risks.

An ignorant population that doesn't take action is a different matter than a knowing population that refuses to act. You can't take action to fix something you are unaware of.

Uncle Tom's Cabin did a LOT of work on slavery, I seem to recall a book written around 1900 which ultimately resulted in the USDA, as well as numerous other campaigns against child labor and various other things, all of which started getting traction after "the public" was made aware of what conditions were like.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #132 on: January 28, 2019, 07:31:02 PM »
Not sure what your argument is. The existence and spread of those books is what raised our moral superiority. People were writing and speaking out against slavery since prior to the constitution. It increased during the abolitionist movement. I'm not saying the people were necessarily superior, I'm saying the society is superior. People understood slavery was wrong, otherwise the English would have had French slaves.

The spread of ideas is what shapes us into a superior society than the one that came before, just as the spread of ideas about science shape us into a superior society. Basic food safety wasn't just for the meat packers ("The Jungle"), but also later about individuals knowing safe food handling - which is ongoing.

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #133 on: January 29, 2019, 01:48:12 AM »
Uh, you need to research the history involving Indentured Servitude in the United States.

Our Colonial counterparts were just as heinous in their treatment of Indentured Europeans (English(!) and German alike) as they later were with the African ones.

The African slaves simply turned out to be cheaper given the prevailing trade routes of the time.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #134 on: January 29, 2019, 09:06:09 AM »
Wasn't clear. I meant that a Londoner couldn't have a slave from Calais.

Pete at Home

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #135 on: January 29, 2019, 09:18:16 AM »
There's nothing I love more than watching two people who both know more than me about a particular subject begin to throw their hard earned knowledge at each other.  I feel like Tevye. Forget the popcorn-- I'm taking notes. 

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #136 on: January 29, 2019, 11:02:34 AM »
The indentured servitude was in fact a small progression. Instead of slaves just being the spoils of war (Romans), it became "people who deserved it" - debtors or criminals. Or entered into voluntarily in exchange for money or transport. It also had a time limit attached, as opposed to full slaves for life. They could indeed be mistreated, bought and sold. They could more or less be killed with impunity by their masters. So not a lot of difference, except that you generally couldn't be hit over the head and put into servitude (although I'm sure that did happen).

Future people will quite possibly look back on extracting work from prisoners as a form of indentured servitude, and they might rightly judge us for allowing it - even advocating for it as a way to reform miscreants.

That might be because society gains greater enlightenment and respect for the individual. But it might also be because technology makes prisoner work obsolete because of automation.

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #137 on: January 29, 2019, 11:29:19 AM »
The all volunteer military is a form of Indentured Servitude. They are government property until the contract ends.

Pete at Home

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #138 on: January 29, 2019, 01:13:29 PM »
The all volunteer military is a form of Indentured Servitude. They are government property until the contract ends.

<speechless>

If I had known that someone would say something so brilliant today, then I would have made reading that part of my ten item bucket list.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #139 on: February 05, 2019, 09:05:07 AM »
Oh, CNN.

Earth's magnetic north pole is hurtling toward Russia

First off, 34 miles per year isn't exactly hurtling anywhere.

Now, their lead-in.

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The north magnetic pole has been drifting so fast that it could be a problem for smartphone maps and navigation systems.

Four paragraphs later.

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And while the model's primary user is the military, it has found its way into Google and Apple's civilian mapping systems. The difference will be minor for civilian purposes, however, and the changes are largely limited to latitudes above 55 degrees. "For most users below 55 degrees north, there is no real difference," Ciaran Beggan, a geophysicist at the British Geological Survey, which creates the map with the NOAA, told CNN.

And the wrap up.

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There is nothing to worry about, Beggan said. "It is unusual behavior in historical terms, (by) geological scales it is not unusual," he said. "The magnetic field (changes) continuously, but it is partly because of its natural behavior," he added.

So a perfectly natural phenomenon of no particular importance is jacked up like a crisis.

Many of us do know that magnetic field is transient and can flip poles entirely. If CNN really wanted to worry people, they should have gone all the way with it. Planetary field strength dropping by 90% would be no joke.

Meanwhile:

NPR: As Magnetic North Pole Zooms Toward Siberia, Scientists Update World Magnetic Model

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North is on the move, and that's a problem for your smartphone maps.

Washington Post had an interesting twist: The North Pole is moving, and the shutdown means we aren’t keeping up

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And thanks to the political storm in Washington, scientists have been unable to post an emergency update of the World Magnetic Model, which cellphone GPS systems and military navigators use to orient themselves.

Just wow. Trump is responsible for failure to deal with a magnetic shift crisis that won't affect anyone inside the continental United States?

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #140 on: February 05, 2019, 06:26:10 PM »
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So a perfectly natural phenomenon of no particular importance is jacked up like a crisis.

Yeah, weird.  I mean, that’s never happened before. Maybe you just don’t science, bro.

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #141 on: February 24, 2019, 05:20:34 PM »
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MSNBC Malcolm Nance just claimed Trump sent secret attack orders to the Coast Guard terrorist

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #142 on: February 24, 2019, 05:28:00 PM »
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Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort appears to employ a pastry chef who frequently posts online about her belief in the pro-Trump QAnon conspiracy theory.

Elizabeth Alfieri, a Florida pastry chef, has posted dozens of times on Instagram using QAnon hashtags and slogans, often using pictures taken at Mar-a-Lago itself.

Well, destroy her, I guess. And while we’re at it, let’s go through the internet history of every single person employed by Trump properties. Every single one. Doing good requires constant vigilance.

D.W.

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #143 on: February 26, 2019, 12:29:12 PM »
Anything else on the Malcolm Nance quote?  If taken at face value, it SHOULD be something they would require some evidence / very credible sources for. 

You've surprised me before, so I'll stifle my "BS!" reaction.    ;D

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2019, 12:53:15 PM »
nance, full context:

A clip of Trump's response to the incident.

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TRUMP: I think it is a shame when a thing like that happens. I expressed that but I'm getting a very complete briefing in about two hours.

JACKSON: Do you think you bear any responsibility for your language.

TRUMP: No, I think my language is very nice. (end video)

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Reid then discussed the Coast Guard officer's terrorist plot, and asked Malcolm Nance, "Can you draw a line between the rhetoric of this president and this kind of idea? This manifesto, idea. It is also tied to something separate that is white nationalists and wanting to have a white homeland?"

NANCE: His writings and what he was basing his ideology on was a globalist, white nationalist belief, that there should be these individual knights that arm themselves, like Timothy McVeigh, and take on the establishment of liberals themselves. That was typified by Anders Behring Breivik, a Norwegian who mass-murdered 77,000 people. One by setting off a car bomb in the capital of Norway, then he killed 69 children to "eliminate the next generation of liberal leadership from Norway." He believed he would go out and carry out a run and gun attack where he would kill the liberal leadership of the United States. Granted it might have been a fantasy in his head. The probability of him getting away with that is not good, but it's not zero. That's where the problem lies. He had a side ideology in his head that -- that we're hearing every day. We had the pipe bomber try to do the same thing in a more crude fashion. This was a very dangerous circumstance that we have to be on guard for, all of the time.

D.W.

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #145 on: February 26, 2019, 01:42:35 PM »
No offense meant, but how the F' do you get from A to B then?    :o

In other words, Nance claimed no such thing.  Unless you cut and pasted the wrong, or incomplete excerpt. 

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #146 on: February 26, 2019, 04:27:05 PM »
I'm just the messenger. Crunch will have to say if that's what he's referring to or not, but it seems pretty close and exactly the kind of cognitive fail that I'd expect.

D.W.

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #147 on: February 26, 2019, 07:05:33 PM »
Sorry bout that TheDrake.  In my haste I thought that was Crunch replying to me.

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #148 on: February 27, 2019, 07:58:04 AM »
No offense meant, but how the F' do you get from A to B then?    :o

In other words, Nance claimed no such thing.  Unless you cut and pasted the wrong, or incomplete excerpt.

I don’t know what TheDrake is trying to do but he didn’t give you the correct context- not surprised.

You can watch the video.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #149 on: February 27, 2019, 11:49:12 AM »
Lulz. That's the exact same segment that I was quoting from, here it is in its entirety.

Maybe Crunch should stop retweeting selections of video interviews along with the headline put on it by pro-Trump shills.

All Nance is saying is that Trump's constant rhetoric like (paraphrase) "horrible evil people, but I wouldn't kill them, but they are disgusting" - that just might encourage someone to take violent action against those people.

Crunch's twitter source:

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John Michael Posobiec III (/pəˈsoʊbɪk/ pə-SOH-bik; born December 14, 1985)[1] is an American alt-right[2][3][4] internet troll[5][6][7] and conspiracy theorist[8] known primarily for his controversial and pro-Donald Trump comments on Twitter. He has promoted fake news, including the debunked Pizzagate conspiracy theory that high-ranking Democratic Party officials were involved in a child sex ring.[9] He has been retweeted by Donald Trump.[10] As of 2018 he was working as a correspondent for One America News Network, a conservative cable news television channel.[11]

If you're following the pizzagate guy and quoting him, you've got cognitive problems.

Jack