Author Topic: Misleading or false claims by the media  (Read 130309 times)

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #400 on: April 09, 2019, 05:40:05 PM »
Oh dear. I feel like a Republican. There was something in the the back of my head nagging about us helping the Saudis in their Yemen thing, and then I remembered, children been dieing there since like 2016.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_Yemen_(2016–present)

If it brings us all together, by all means, let's blame this on Obama.

Edited to remove a sarcastic comment, I guess the forum software doesn't support posting that, use Google or add the second bracket to get to that particular Wikipedia article.

It does support it, you just have to know the right magic tricks. Automatic Link Generation isn't completely reliable.

DJQuag

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #401 on: April 09, 2019, 05:47:40 PM »
Cheers mate.

DJQuag

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #402 on: April 09, 2019, 06:02:50 PM »
Just saying guys. The Yemen deal is really, really bad. They've decided to win the war by starving a population to death.

And the Western world and it's militaries seem to be either down with that or actively helping.

What the actual hell.

DJQuag

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #403 on: April 09, 2019, 06:06:14 PM »
Even if we're gonna get a bit racist and say ""Arabs gonna Arab," and help out our buddies, the one's we're helping literally did 9/11 and we're  helping to starve children to death! What?!?

DJQuag

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #404 on: April 09, 2019, 06:08:09 PM »
Sorry guys I'm kind of on a bender atm. You know how I do.

DJQuag

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #405 on: April 09, 2019, 06:53:48 PM »
I got off on a tagent here and I apologize. (Used the z. Had to overwhelm the spellchecker.)

I promise I will shut up now. I honestly prefer to be the liberal version of Cherry who pops up now and then with a good point. And then the conservative version of Seriati either shuts me down with a good argument that I can't be defend against or I can't even be arsed arguing a winning argument out because I'm just dicking around.

Then it was the anniversary. Of a bad time. So I've been drinking for a few days. In a relatively controlled way, because how else can you go on a bender when you're an insulin dependent diabetic? Don't get me wrong, it could still go real bad. I'm I'm the UK and they help me get the good insulin so I'll be fine.

So I've *censored* up the boards but I promise you, I'm done. This is the last one. Go back to your formally scheduled programming. It's so much fun seeing MSN vs. Fox on a regular basis just in a message board format.

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #406 on: April 09, 2019, 07:19:12 PM »
Have a good sleep and hope you feel better!

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #407 on: April 10, 2019, 04:30:04 PM »
One question: if Trump has so strongly condemned white nationalism, just like every President before him, why haven't the white nationalists responded?

I mean, Obama condemned white nationalists, and they weren't too pleased with him.  They wrote articles condemning him.  They hated him and let everyone know it.

So where are the articles condemning Trump?  Where do white nationalists say he's a traitor to their country and their cause?  Where do they spew their hatred on him?

I mean, it's not like white nationalists are shy about talking about who they hate.  Who their enemies are.  Who they think aren't with them.  Who they would like to see die.

So why haven't I seen any reporting about how the white nationalist movement hates Trump?  Is the MSM not reporting it?  Or does it not exist?

And if not, why not?  I know white nationalists don't believe everything the MSM and left say.  They're pretty independent thinkers in that respect. :)  So why don't they, apparently, think Trump is condemning them?

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #408 on: April 10, 2019, 04:48:14 PM »
They could be trying to co-opt legitimacy by trying to associate with Trump, in an attempt to gain new support from within the group of people who support Trump.

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #409 on: April 10, 2019, 05:00:26 PM »
So you are asking, why after the media has buried Trump's anti-bigot statements and overplayed his ambiguous statements are there not more widely published accounts from racists decrying him?

On what world does that ask make sense?

First of all, racists are deficient thinkers prone to internalize nonsensical and unproven beliefs and ignore contrary evidence.  Our media seems to have adopted this trait.  in this case, it means they may very well believe Trump is on their side cause they read it in the media.  It's still a ridiculous assertion, that the lack of media coverage of the such position pieces should be considered some kind of warped proof that Trump supports them.

Second, I have no belief that you've spent any time looking into what racists are actually saying, I know I haven't.  Where exactly would this condemnation come from and who would find it?  The media's incentives are flat out to find and publish that which supports the story they want to tell.

Third, we have a binary system.  No one supports their positions on the issues they care about, because neither party supports racism.  They still are going to vote for someone, and in fact, virtually all the research shows the support of actual white racists in about equal in each of the parties.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 05:02:53 PM by Seriati »

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #410 on: April 10, 2019, 06:06:45 PM »
It's not hard to find, the press isn't scouring the Earth to find out what David Duke says, and I think you can probably assume that a large number of white nationalists follow his lead.

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"Thank you President Trump for your honesty & courage to tell the truth about #Charlottesville & condemn the leftist terrorists in BLM/Antifa," Duke tweeted after the news conference.

Then after Trump's cleanup speech:

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"I would recommend you take a good look in the mirror & remember it was White Americans who put you in the presidency, not radical leftists," Duke tweeted.

By criticising the Alt-Right & not naming BLM/Antifa you have given them the permission to destroy. The Red Terror begins.
 

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"To get elected today you can't really speak straightforwardly and totally honestly. If you do you're going to be crucified," Duke said as he explained that he understood why Trump felt he needed to condemn white supremacists.

"You had to come out and say I condemn all these people," Duke said. "President Trump please, for God's sake, don't feel like you've got to say these things. It's not going to do you any good. They hate you."

I'm not claiming anything about what Trump thinks of them in return, nor that they like him because he is one of them.

Again, in Duke's words:

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I wouldn't say Donald Trump is a champion for white America, I think he shares a lot of the issues and values of white America.

I can't recall too many politicians who get Duke's enthusiastic approval. Certainly not Mitt Romney, against whom Duke would run.

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #411 on: April 11, 2019, 01:07:10 PM »
So you are asking, why after the media has buried Trump's anti-bigot statements and overplayed his ambiguous statements are there not more widely published accounts from racists decrying him?

No, you misunderstand me.  I'm asking if there are any such published articles decrying Trump, not whether they are widely published or not.  And if not, why aren't there any such articles.

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First of all, racists are deficient thinkers prone to internalize nonsensical and unproven beliefs and ignore contrary evidence.  Our media seems to have adopted this trait.  in this case, it means they may very well believe Trump is on their side cause they read it in the media.  It's still a ridiculous assertion, that the lack of media coverage of the such position pieces should be considered some kind of warped proof that Trump supports them.

First, why do you believe that white nationalists give any credence to the MSM?  They are some of the first ones to call them liars and spreaders of "fake news."  I would think any assertion by the MSM would be challenged and checked by white nationalists.

Second, why would you disbelieve them?  If the MSM says that Trump supports white nationalists, and white nationalists (who hate the MSM and do not support them in any way) say he supports them, and do not denounce him (as they do the MSM and everyone else who they fell is their "enemy"), isn't this an indication that they may be both right?  When two disparate sources come to the same conclusion, doesn't that indicate to you that they may both be on the right track?

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Second, I have no belief that you've spent any time looking into what racists are actually saying.  I know I haven't.  Where exactly would this condemnation come from and who would find it?  The media's incentives are flat out to find and publish that which supports the story they want to tell.

No, I am not familiar with what the racists are saying.  Which is why I'm asking if there are such articles condemning Trump.

And while "the media's incentives are flat out to find and publish that which supports the story they want to tell," remember that we don't have just one media in this country.  There is the entire Right Wing media, that wants to contradict what the Left Wing media says.  Don't you think your sources that remind you of Trump's anti-racist statements would find it helps to support the story they want to tell to point out the hatred white supremacists have for Trump?

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Third, we have a binary system.  No one supports their positions on the issues they care about, because neither party supports racism.  They still are going to vote for someone, and in fact, virtually all the research shows the support of actual white racists in about equal in each of the parties.

Could you link to some of this research?  I haven't heard of this, and I am curious about it.

However, as The Drake quotes, David Duke's criticism of Trump is tepid at best, and rather supportive all-in-all.  He certainly feels that he could talk to Trump and make an ally of him.

Compare it to his criticisms of the Left and (current) Democratic politicians.  Do you think he was so nice when talking about Obama, or Hillary?  Why does Obama's and Hillary's condemnations rankle white supremacists so much more than Trump's?

You discount reports of Trump being friendly toward white supremacists in the media because you believe it fits the media's narrative, and that the media is suppressing contradictory information.  But why would white supremacists tell the same story?  Why do they feel Trump is friendly towards them, if this friendliness is not real?  You think they don't recognize their friends from their enemies?

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #412 on: April 11, 2019, 01:31:24 PM »
Second, why would you disbelieve them?  If the MSM says that Trump supports white nationalists, and white nationalists (who hate the MSM and do not support them in any way) say he supports them, and do not denounce him (as they do the MSM and everyone else who they fell is their "enemy"), isn't this an indication that they may be both right?  When two disparate sources come to the same conclusion, doesn't that indicate to you that they may both be on the right track?

Absolutely not! Can you not see direct lines of interest here that would make them have separate reasons for saying the same thing? Of course white supremacists would like to make it known that they have support at high levels, to make it look like they're legitimized. And because of all the rhetoric levied against Trump they have the maneuvering room for their claim to look plausible to unsifting eyes. And for the MSM, whose main project for years has been to launch anything including the kitchen sink against Trump, of course they would take the opportunity to try to associate him with white supremacists. But the idea that because they're saying the same thing that therefore the position is given credence is exactly what the white supremacists are playing on. In other words, their plan is working on you. They win. By becoming a behemoth in your eyes, with the support of the President, no less, they go from being perceived as a trivial fringe element to being a giant monster looming on the horizon. And guess what works really well for recruiting: being able to tout that you're seen as an important group. That, along with the fact that the more disenchanted citizens feel like they're being lied to in the mainstream, the more likely they are to become radicalized or else move towards the fringe, to get away from the cesspool. Never mind that they end up even further from their own interests, but that's not how it seems to them.

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Compare it to his criticisms of the Left and (current) Democratic politicians.  Do you think he was so nice when talking about Obama, or Hillary?  Why does Obama's and Hillary's condemnations rankle white supremacists so much more than Trump's?

I know your comment wasn't directed at me, but you have to see it from the perspective of groups like this. What's their best move to gain tractiona and attention? They can't just go live in the woods and forgo assocation in mainstream politics, because then they become a long-gone group to be forgotten. So they must pick a battlement and defend it. Their chosen one does seem to be the GOP side, and indeed you might well ask why that is. You might at the same time ask why 99% of hard-core constitutionalists and libertarians seem to be associated with the ring-wing these days. These facts are not unrelated to each other. White supremacists are almost certainly in close venn-diagram proximity with constitutionalist and "down with big government" groups, which in turn are also in close-ish proximity with the Tea Party type thinkers. This, more than any other reason, is the likely explanation behind why they swing right rather than left, as the mainstream voter of both parties likely doesn't want anything to do with them.

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #413 on: April 11, 2019, 01:39:14 PM »
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Of course white supremacists would like to make it known that they have support at high levels, to make it look like they're legitimized.

Fair enough.  How can we tell the difference between white nationalists pretending to like Trump and pretending that he is supporting their views, and them actually liking Trump and believing he supports their views?

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #414 on: April 11, 2019, 01:42:44 PM »
BTW, as we all know, Trump likes to give demeaning nicknames to his opponents and those he doesn't like.  What's his nickname for white supremacists?  :)

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #415 on: April 11, 2019, 02:11:31 PM »
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Of course white supremacists would like to make it known that they have support at high levels, to make it look like they're legitimized.

Fair enough.  How can we tell the difference between white nationalists pretending to like Trump and pretending that he is supporting their views, and them actually liking Trump and believing he supports their views?

If you're asking for my assessment, it would be to ignore white supremacists wholesale. Just totally disregard anything they say and leave them alone. If they want to speak, or protest, let them, and don't give them any attention. It's the making them into a Goliath that makes them one. You don't need to parse whether they 'really' believe some statement they make or another. It just doesn't matter.

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #416 on: April 11, 2019, 02:46:42 PM »
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Of course white supremacists would like to make it known that they have support at high levels, to make it look like they're legitimized.

Fair enough.  How can we tell the difference between white nationalists pretending to like Trump and pretending that he is supporting their views, and them actually liking Trump and believing he supports their views?

If you're asking for my assessment, it would be to ignore white supremacists wholesale. Just totally disregard anything they say and leave them alone. If they want to speak, or protest, let them, and don't give them any attention. It's the making them into a Goliath that makes them one. You don't need to parse whether they 'really' believe some statement they make or another. It just doesn't matter.

But here we're not giving attention to their political views or influence, but rather their beliefs on who is their friend/supporter and who isn't.  They may be pipsqueeks, but their views can have dire consequences.  (Do I really need to Godwin this? ;) )

And who is a better judge of someone white supremacists consider to be a friend/ally, and who they consider to be an enemy, than the white supremacists themselves?  ;)

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #417 on: April 11, 2019, 02:48:47 PM »
But here we're not giving attention to their political views or influence, but rather their beliefs on who is their friend/supporter and who isn't.  They may be pipsqueeks, but their views can have dire consequences.  (Do I really need to Godwin this? ;) )

And who is a better judge of someone white supremacists consider to be a friend/ally, and who they consider to be an enemy, than the white supremacists themselves?  ;)

It sounds like you're saying you want to mostly ignore them, but to cherry pick their statements when it makes your nemesis look bad. Just ignore them, man.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #418 on: April 15, 2019, 05:30:37 PM »
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The media wrote Tiger off years ago. But he was not ready to be ushered off the stage.

At the top of his game in 2015, Tiger Woods won his fourth Masters Tournament. He took two Opens and two PGA Championships in the few years after that but then the troubled years hit hard.

Breitbart. Sneering at "the media" for getting their predictions wrong, while getting the year for Tiger's fourth Masters Tournament wrong by a decade (2005). He also took three open championships (2 Opens and 1 US Open) after that time, not two.

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #419 on: May 02, 2019, 04:28:41 PM »
Washington Post headline:

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Facebook bans far-right leaders Louis Farrakhan, Milo Yiannopoulos, InfoWars and others from its platforms as 'dangerous'

Far-right. All of them.

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #420 on: May 02, 2019, 04:35:52 PM »
Related:

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Attorneys for Nicholas Sandmann filed a $275 million lawsuit Wednesday against NBCUniversal over its coverage of the Kentucky teen, accusing the network of creating a “false narrative” driven by its “anti-Trump agenda.”

The lawsuit, the third filed by the Sandmann attorneys against major media outlets, alleged that NBC targeted the Covington Catholic High School student in its reporting on his Jan. 18 encounter with Native American activist Nathan Phillips at the Lincoln Memorial.

“NBCUniversal created a false narrative by portraying the ‘confrontation’ as a ‘hate crime’ committed by Nicholas,” said the complaint filed in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Kentucky.

$275 million.  I hope he gets every penny of it.

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #421 on: May 02, 2019, 04:36:22 PM »
Louis Farrakhan is right wing? Since when?

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #422 on: May 02, 2019, 04:38:06 PM »
Louis Farrakhan is right wing? Since when?

I dunno, never see him at any of the meetings.

Pete at Home

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #423 on: May 10, 2019, 06:57:43 PM »
Leftwit statisticians categorize the black Texas BLM Shooter as a "white right wing" male to fit their Trump Voters are worse than ISIS sophistry.

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #424 on: May 27, 2019, 03:46:06 PM »
Quote
Time Magazine columnist Ian Bremmer on Sunday tweeted a quote from President Donald Trump about North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un that quickly went viral — but it wasn’t real.

“President Trump in Tokyo: ‘Kim Jong Un is smarter and would make a better President than Sleepy Joe Biden.'” Bremmer wrote on Twitter.

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Bremmer left the false post up for several hours before conceding he made up the quote and deleting the tweet, which he defended as “plausible.”

This lie went viral, retweeted by MSM reporters and thousands of others. Bremmer should be fired.

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #425 on: May 27, 2019, 03:49:31 PM »
made me laugh

“People think they can say anything and get away with it,” Trump tweeted Monday morning. “Really, the libel laws should be changed to hold Fake News Media accountable!”
Classic

Only trump gets away with saying anything.

NobleHunter

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #426 on: May 27, 2019, 03:55:27 PM »
He should probably be fired.

If the statement hadn't been retracted would it be libelous?

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #427 on: May 27, 2019, 04:37:32 PM »
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He should probably be fired.

Anyone who relies on Twitter for facts or truth is a fool.
If the main line media stopped reacting to and reporting Tweets we would all be better off

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #428 on: May 27, 2019, 04:43:55 PM »
So what should they rely on?

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #429 on: May 27, 2019, 05:09:28 PM »
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So what should they rely on?

Not Twitter. Twitter is a game people play to make them feel important.

Trumps uses of Twitter to communicate policy - except for when its not... would undermine anyone else trying to use it that way.

If I have any advice for anyone running against Trump it would be not to engage with him, never resort to making fun of him or the like and never ever reply to his tweets  That's his sandbox your won't win stick to policy

« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 05:16:57 PM by rightleft22 »

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #430 on: May 27, 2019, 05:09:40 PM »
Quote
He should probably be fired.

Anyone who relies on Twitter for facts or truth is a fool.
If the main line media stopped reacting to and reporting Tweets we would all be better off

I could say the same about any media source now. And yet we rely on all of them.

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #431 on: May 27, 2019, 05:25:18 PM »
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I could say the same about any media source now. And yet we rely on all of them.

Do yo really rely on all of them?

This is were discernment comes in.  Be very conscious of the difference between - news, opinion, editorial and speculation.
When it comes to Trump its just best to avoid anything he says about other peoples personalities or anyone who tries to engage with him on that level.   

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #432 on: May 28, 2019, 08:04:14 AM »
When it comes to Trump its just best to avoid anything he says about other peoples personalities or anyone who tries to engage with him on that level.

The same can be said of any reporter or on air personality from CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC, NYT. The organizations they represent are the same.

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #433 on: May 28, 2019, 08:17:57 AM »
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I could say the same about any media source now. And yet we rely on all of them.

Do yo really rely on all of them?

So what should he rely on?

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #434 on: May 28, 2019, 09:54:11 AM »
Fenring can rely on Fenring.

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #435 on: May 28, 2019, 10:07:50 AM »
When it comes to Trump its just best to avoid anything he says about other peoples personalities or anyone who tries to engage with him on that level.

The same can be said of any reporter or on air personality from CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC, NYT. The organizations they represent are the same.

Isn't that what I said - it would be best if everyone avoid responding/reacting to anything personal Trump says about others. Don't play in his sandbox unless you want sand in your eyes

Do we really care the Trump agreed with Kim Jong Un who was agreeing with Trump about someones IQ - is that a "news" story we should spend time on?
Even if Kim was endorsing Trump for president other then being inappropriate for a foreign leader to interfere that way, maybe that ok now.. Lets talk about someone tweeting something foolish instead and sue his ass

Crunch

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #436 on: May 28, 2019, 11:49:50 AM »
Fenring can rely on Fenring.

If you meditate on this long enough, you will achieve total enlightenment.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #437 on: May 28, 2019, 12:07:21 PM »
Fenring can rely on Fenring.

We have arrived at the nexus of the universe.

DJQuag

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #438 on: May 30, 2019, 01:35:45 PM »
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So what should they rely on?

Not Twitter. Twitter is a game people play to make them feel important.

Trumps uses of Twitter to communicate policy - except for when its not... would undermine anyone else trying to use it that way.

If I have any advice for anyone running against Trump it would be not to engage with him, never resort to making fun of him or the like and never ever reply to his tweets  That's his sandbox your won't win stick to policy

I dunno about that. I honestly think if a left winger went into the trenches and started giving grade school nicknames to Trump on the lines of "Crooked" or "Sleepy" he would lose his sh*t.

I'm actually willing to believe that Trump didn't tell people to hide the McCain navy ship because I can totally see the people around him getting really, really nervous if he saw it, and what it would prompt him to say.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #439 on: May 30, 2019, 01:45:56 PM »
Quote
So what should they rely on?

Not Twitter. Twitter is a game people play to make them feel important.

Trumps uses of Twitter to communicate policy - except for when its not... would undermine anyone else trying to use it that way.

If I have any advice for anyone running against Trump it would be not to engage with him, never resort to making fun of him or the like and never ever reply to his tweets  That's his sandbox your won't win stick to policy

I dunno about that. I honestly think if a left winger went into the trenches and started giving grade school nicknames to Trump on the lines of "Crooked" or "Sleepy" he would lose his sh*t.

I'm actually willing to believe that Trump didn't tell people to hide the McCain navy ship because I can totally see the people around him getting really, really nervous if he saw it, and what it would prompt him to say.

Remember when Rubio tried to beat Trump at his game? Sad.

DJQuag

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #440 on: May 30, 2019, 02:07:23 PM »
Quote
So what should they rely on?

Not Twitter. Twitter is a game people play to make them feel important.

Trumps uses of Twitter to communicate policy - except for when its not... would undermine anyone else trying to use it that way.

If I have any advice for anyone running against Trump it would be not to engage with him, never resort to making fun of him or the like and never ever reply to his tweets  That's his sandbox your won't win stick to policy

I dunno about that. I honestly think if a left winger went into the trenches and started giving grade school nicknames to Trump on the lines of "Crooked" or "Sleepy" he would lose his sh*t.

I'm actually willing to believe that Trump didn't tell people to hide the McCain navy ship because I can totally see the people around him getting really, really nervous if he saw it, and what it would prompt him to say.

Remember when Rubio tried to beat Trump at his game? Sad.

Fair enough. Best timeline is where Bernie is out there with the nomination and AOC is triggering Trump on twitter by calling him names.

DJQuag

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #441 on: May 30, 2019, 02:10:42 PM »
He's got an extremely thin skin, if only about the things that matter to him as a narcissist. I guarantee if someone high profile started referring to him as "Bankrupt" Trump he'd lose his rag.

ScottF

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #442 on: May 30, 2019, 03:00:45 PM »
He's got an extremely thin skin, if only about the things that matter to him as a narcissist. I guarantee if someone high profile started referring to him as "Bankrupt" Trump he'd lose his rag.

He’s a counter puncher. Playing his game would be a really bad idea.

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #443 on: May 30, 2019, 05:05:10 PM »
A counter puncher that love's the role of victim

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #444 on: May 30, 2019, 07:30:28 PM »
I don't know, I'd be feeling pretty victimized if I got elected President, only to have my administration tied up with an investigation that I KNEW was bogus for two years, especially after, against my better judgment, I was convinced to let it run it's course and cooperate with it.  After I'd made millions of pages of privileged materials available as well as hours and hours of interviews with executive staff available to the investigation, and never once prevented the investigators from doing whatever they deemed necessary (even when they appeared to be trammeling the Constitution by seizing one of my lawyers records, abusing the use of swat teams, and attempting to suborn witnesses into making false statements), only to be faced with 2 more years of trumped up "obstruction" charges.

Or where I've had 50+ district court decisions overrule executive policy, including on items that are exclusively under the executive branches control per the Constitution, items where Congress expressly granted the executive branch full discretion, items where I restored policies that had been in place for decades or even longer prior to my predecessor, and items where my predecessor acting by executive fiat and I wanted to unwind them.

I might be feeling like the "system" was attempting to crush the outsider that the people elected to clean it up and rather victimized.

ScottF

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #445 on: May 30, 2019, 08:13:46 PM »
Not to mention the incredible stream of leaks since day one. He does bring a lot of it on himself but I think such a concerted and sustained effort to "get" a president is unprecedented.

It's going to be fascinating to see if it's kept up through his second term.

Pete at Home

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #446 on: May 30, 2019, 09:24:11 PM »
The problem with veterans coming home to lives of poverty and crime goes back thousands of years. It started multiple Roman Civil wars, was the primary cause for 20th century fascism... That's what the GI bill prevents. It takes the most ambitious,  intelligent, leadership capable veterans and gives them a hand up. Those who have seen Rome, season one episode 11 might call it the Lucius Vorenus program.  Given the size and scope of our military it's a remarkably cheap way of staving off whiskey rebellions.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 09:26:39 PM by Pete at Home »

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #447 on: May 31, 2019, 06:49:32 AM »
I think this is exactly what you get when you don't follow established norms, don't build consensus, and generally antagonize large numbers of people. Add to that, not knowing the rules for public service and surrounding yourself with more of the same.

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #448 on: May 31, 2019, 09:31:22 AM »
I don't think that holds water TheDrake.  The leaks started before he took office, heck President Obama even deliberately changed how classification worked to ensure that leakable materials would be widely circulated.

Trump is primarily a threat to the bureaucracy, and the bureaucracy has been what's behind the biggest attacks made on him. 

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #449 on: May 31, 2019, 10:15:14 AM »
And you think he wasn't breaking norms before he took office? You could start with not divesting businesses, and then you could look at putting people in charge of agencies who were openly critical of those agencies and some who even questioned their existence.

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Trump is primarily a threat to the bureaucracy, and the bureaucracy has been what's behind the biggest attacks made on him.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Trump went in wanting to break the wheel and was willing to do whatever was necessary to accomplish that. He wasn't interested in working with people to gradually reform those agencies. He was happy to openly criticize them, like the intelligence agencies, FBI, etc.

It's why he's loved and hated, regardless of what side one comes down on, it is a radical departure and bound to cause volatility. When you question the competence, value, and purpose of enough people, you are going to get leaks, resistance, resignations, and inertia.

I'm not making an absolute value judgement. Sometimes a turnaround requires burning out everyone who can't get on board with the new plan. Protected career civil servants are not as easy to wipe out, however, and are protected precisely to avoid radical shifts and politically motivated demolition. Imagine if everybody at the EPA could be wiped away and replaced with people from oil, gas, and chemical industries - instead of just the head guy.