Author Topic: Misleading or false claims by the media  (Read 139768 times)

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #550 on: September 05, 2021, 01:37:54 PM »


We also had the media lie with a fake fact check about Biden checking his watch during a ceremony for the U.S. soldiers killed by Biden in Afghanistan. Eighteen months without a U.S. combat death in Afghanistan until Biden sounds his bugle of retreat and leaves our troops vulnerable to get hit by ISIS. Video evidence forced a media correction to their correction.


And the media fact check on the 18 months of no American combat deaths in Afghanistan quibbles by pointing out that there were non-hostile deaths just to try to muddy the waters while pretending they want to clear them.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/09/01/fact-check-11-us-service-members-died-afghanistan-2020/5622880001/

LetterRip

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #551 on: September 05, 2021, 02:24:07 PM »
U.S. soldiers killed by Biden in Afghanistan.

I know you aren't a moron, why do you post such blatant idiocy?  Biden didn't kill any soldiers.  If you want to blame someone who's actions in the abstract increased the risk of attack.  That would be Trump who freed 5000 Taliban soldiers, and then illegally drew the troops down below 5000, to 2500.  That then created such a small force of US military in the country that they could no longer defend most of the country.  That then forced either the US to reinvade - probably requiring an enormous surge in the 100,000 soldier range to restablize, or complete Trump's withdrawal.  Since most of the US was in favor of withdrawal, Biden completed Trump's withdrawal.

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Eighteen months without a U.S. combat death in Afghanistan until Biden sounds his bugle of retreat and leaves our troops vulnerable to get hit by ISIS. Video evidence forced a media correction to their correction.

The triggering event was Trump drawing down the troops illegally and freeing 5000 Taliban which completely destablized the country.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #552 on: September 05, 2021, 03:39:29 PM »
Biden says the buck stops with him and defended his decision.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-afghanistan-withdrawal-taliban-decision/

"President Biden said he stands "squarely behind his decision" to withdraw U.S. forces from Afghanistan on Monday but admitted that the swift collapse of the central government caught the U.S. off guard, telling the nation "the buck stops with me" as chaotic efforts to evacuate U.S. personnel and Afghan allies from Kabul continue."

If Biden says the buck stops with him then that means he gets the blame when things go sideways. Or over a cliff.

If he wanted to withdrawal he should have made sure it was an orderly process that didn't put our troops unnecessarily in harm's way. He failed to do that.

I'm rewatching the series "24" and it has stood up well even after all this time. I was referencing that in the covid thread when I brought up the part about how our government will not hesitate to deceive and outright lie when the priority it not to cause a panic. It's just interesting that this time our government meaning Biden told the truth. We're getting out of Dodge in a hurry and it did cause a panic and got people killed including our troops. A slower and more orderly process with Afghan security covering the more dangerous positions like they've been doing for the last 18 months would have left our troops in a better position from a safety vantage. Biden decided not to do that. That's on him.

It's also astute how right the show gets the incompetence of the people in charge of making the big decisions.

Whatever Trump did, Biden could have changed it. He changed everything else, basically acting as the Bizarro Biden to Trump's Super Presidency so it's interesting how on this one issue where it was a massive disaster it seems like there could be no deviation allowed from Trump's plan. I think Trump pushed the withdrawal back before too so why couldn't it be pushed back again, stringing the Taliban along? But in any case since Biden said the Buck stops with him so Biden owns it.

LetterRip

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #553 on: September 05, 2021, 04:19:33 PM »
Whatever Trump did, Biden could have changed it.

Are you trying to prove me wrong with my claim that you aren't a moron?

If you drop a vase and it shatters.  I can choose to sweep the pieces into the trash, or try to glue it back together.

There isn't a way to reverse entropy and have the vase magically whole again.

Once the 5000 Taliban were set free, it would take similar resources to capture them and jail them as it did initially.  Presumably something similar to the resources we expended in the past.  Biden couldn't say "Hey Taliban, Trumps decision was amazingly stupid, so can all of those who he set free could just go back into jail and on death row - that'd be great".

So he was stuck with continuing the withdrawal unless the US public was willing to stomach many trillions of dollars more to reverse Trump's actions.

Similarly once Trump pulled the 2,500 American troops and we could no longer defend much the of the Afghan territory, any territory capture by the Taliban, would require similar expenditures to recapture it. So again unless the US was willing to spend similar amounts that we spent in taking territory, that wasn't an option.

If a game switches players half way through, the strategic blunders of the previous player are sunk costs.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #554 on: September 07, 2021, 07:58:44 AM »
We didn't have to really fight the Taliban, just continue to provide support to the Afghans who were fighting them. We weren't even supporting them anymore. We left them out in the cold like the Monday morning trash. Was there really no way to organize a troop pullout while still supporting the Afghan military with logistics? A smart person would have figured it out. Twenty years of training and we didn't have them trained enough so that we could fly in resources and they could distribute them? We couldn't offer outsourced maintenance services for their equipment? We couldn't help them coordinate their logistics with remote technology? There was no possible way to support them in their fight against the Taliban with drone strikes carried out from our operators in America with the support of the Afghan military handling and servicing the actual drones in Afghanistan? In our "deal" with the Taliban we couldn't have included a fine print rider stipulating that they couldn't take over the country as soon as we left, and they didn't even wait that long. We couldn't offer any support at all to the Afghan Vice President who was still fighting in Panjshir province? Not even a kind word?

Obviously a lot of people can explain all of this much better than I can. For instance:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/joe-biden-has-treated-britain-with-disdain-over-afghanistan

"Congratulations, Joe. No US President has simultaneously alienated (and abandoned) so many of his compatriots or exacerbated threats to the West with such efficiency as Biden this past week. Biden defiantly sees ‘an extraordinary success’ in the chaotic and deadly withdrawal from Afghanistan, but disaster currently flows in the President’s wake. And one of the consequences is the mortal danger to America’s most important diplomatic and military alliance: the UK-US Special Relationship.

Biden’s speech on Tuesday was a deranged, dramatic tragedy. He lashed out at critics of his calamity which saw the Taliban reinstalled in power and strengthened with new deadly capabilities. Though entirely of Biden’s making, he took every opportunity to blame everyone but himself for his failures.

No matter the spin, in Biden there is a void of judgment and ability to lead. As Douglas Murray noted over the weekend, tragically ‘it took America gifting Afghanistan back to the Taliban for so many people to realise this.’ For a man chosen only because he wasn’t Trump, the bar was set very low. Biden has failed to get close to it."

I gotta give Obama some credit here for really calling it when he warned us:

"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f.... things up."

NobleHunter

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #555 on: September 07, 2021, 11:29:30 AM »
Entirely of Biden's making? How many troops were in Afghanistan when he took office? This criticism would seem a lot more sincere if it wasn't so one sided.

Greg Davidson

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #556 on: September 07, 2021, 02:45:18 PM »
Let's put Afghanistan in a different context.

No one in the world had a better plan for the evacuation than the Biden Administration (if you disagree, show us the evidence). Among national political figures, no one had better insights a decade ago that the Afghan regime was never going to be able to stand on its own than Joe Biden, who was the loudest voice in the Obama Administration for reducing our involvement then. 

And if you look at 20 years of comments from those now criticizing Joe Biden, can you name a single politician, pundit, or Ornery poster whose comments on Afghanistan have not been proven more wrong by actual events? If so, please tell us who.


cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #557 on: September 07, 2021, 05:20:17 PM »
Biden lies about Afghanistan:

https://nypost.com/2021/09/01/6-lies-president-joe-biden-told-about-afghanistan/

Among others:

"LIE: “Your own intelligence community has assessed that the Afghan government will likely collapse,” a reporter told the president July 8, to which a defensive Biden responded, “That is not true.” He added that “the likelihood there’s going to be the Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely.”

TRUTH: In fact, Biden knew the Taliban were overtaking the Afghan government — and asked Ghani to lie about it. The perception “is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban,” Biden said. “And there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.” Ghani gave him the facts: “We are facing a full-scale invasion, composed of Taliban, full Pakistani planning and logistical support, and at least 10-15,000 international terrorists, predominantly Pakistanis thrown into this.” Biden ignored them.

LIE: Biden vowed to continue providing the Afghan army with air support. “I’ll insist we continue to keep the commitments we made of providing close air support, making sure that their air force functions and is operable,” he said Aug. 10. He’d made the promise to Afghan President Ashraf Ghani in a July 23 phone call that was leaked Wednesday. “We will continue to provide close air support,” Biden said. “And all the way through the end of August, and who knows what after that.”

TRUTH: The Wall Street Journal reported Aug. 14, “In the wake of President Biden’s withdrawal decision, the US pulled its air support, intelligence and contractors servicing Afghanistan’s planes and helicopters. That meant the Afghan military simply couldn’t operate anymore.” That puts paid to Biden’s repeated claim that the Afghan army simply folded because it didn’t want to fight."

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Biden promised to continue "to keep the commitments we made of providing close air support, making sure that their air force functions and is operable...” at least until the end of August and maybe even after that. So why not keep that promise?

Why make it then if he wasn't going to keep it?

Before our official entrance into WWII we helped Britain with the Lend-Lease Act. We couldn't do something similar to help Afghanistan without putting our troops into harm's way?

And a big issue is how Biden was saying publicly that total Taliban takeover was highly unlikely while it seems like it private he knew that was not true, that he was lying through his teeth to the public, and now he says that the chaos was inevitable?
Why would there be chaos if the Afghan government was functioning properly because the Taliban didn't take it over?

We got lie after lie after lie about Afghanistan by Biden and most of the media covered for him. As usual, the most important thing is not to cause a panic. Well, at least put it off for as long as possible by lying and lying and lying and then just watch all hell break loose.

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #558 on: September 07, 2021, 05:25:22 PM »
Biden didn't kill any soldiers.  If you want to blame someone who's actions in the abstract increased the risk of attack.  That would be Trump who freed 5000 Taliban soldiers, and then illegally drew the troops down below 5000, to 2500.  That then created such a small force of US military in the country that they could no longer defend most of the country.  That then forced either the US to reinvade - probably requiring an enormous surge in the 100,000 soldier range to restablize, or complete Trump's withdrawal.  Since most of the US was in favor of withdrawal, Biden completed Trump's withdrawal.

The agreement with the Taliban is one of Trump's biggest (legitimate) mistakes.  The agreement was poorly constructed, with absolutely no verification mechanisms or objective tests for the Taliban to meet and was being breached by the Taliban almost from the moment it was entered into.

The 5000 prisoner release is not a mistake, if you have an effective agreement that generates a cease fire and peace.  To the extent that those 5000 are POWs they would be released anyway, to the extent they were war criminals they should not have been released.  However, even war criminals are often part of the post-war amnesty to a certain extent - they may be subject to new trials afterwards.

Even after it was obvious that the Taliban were not living up to their commitments Trump continued to implement and support the agreement, even going so far as to criticise Biden delaying the exit from May 1st to Sept. 11.

But that said, excusing Biden for his role is complete nonsense.  Biden's the President and he has been for eight months.  The deal was failing before he took office, and Congress told Biden in February that the deal was failing and needed substantial reworking, including the introduction of objective compliance milestones and the ditching of the hard time table. Not even 3 weeks later Biden reconfirmed that he was going to continue with the deal and exit Afghanistan (intending on the May 1st line at the time). 

At no point during his Presidency was the Taliban complying with the Agreement, and at any point he could have reversed the retreat based on breach of the Agreement.  He choose not to do so, and he choose that deliberately.  It's obvious from the leaked communications that he lied about his knowledge of what would occur.  At no point was he incapable of ordering an effective response to maintain a safe evacuation.

The best spin I can put on it for both Biden and Trump is that they seem convinced there was no good exit, and that long term the Taliban will operate as a government and not just as a bunch of terrorists.  They may even be correct, or it may just have been that they saw the writing on the wall that no matter when we left the Taliban was going to take over and there was no use in pissing them off if we weren't going to continue to occupy Afghanistan. 

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The triggering event was Trump drawing down the troops illegally and freeing 5000 Taliban which completely destablized the country.

The triggering events were many, starting with the deal Trump cut, including the election Trump lost (and the open acknowledgement of Biden's weakness), including Biden's repeated commitment to the "peace" plan and both Presidents ignoring the Taliban's violations.  The 5000 release wasn't much of a trigger, but the release of the 400 that were held for crimes should not have occurred without real progress, or maybe at all. 

The Afghan forces were capable of holding the country.  But I think both Presidents came to realize that those forces would not do so.  There was no commitment to the country, the soldiers weren't patriotic, they weren't committed to something because it was bigger than themselves, and they faced fanatics.  Young men with passion for their homeland were more likely to join the Taliban to expel foreigners from their country than the defense force to get a piece of the foreign graft.  Without a sense of a country or purpose no army can stand.

Let's put Afghanistan in a different context.

No one in the world had a better plan for the evacuation than the Biden Administration (if you disagree, show us the evidence).

Not clear what you "accept" as evidence, but how about -evacuate civilians before the military.  Seems pretty straight forward.  Mandatory evacuation of allies.  Given what Biden knew, its pretty clear he knew the country would fall almost immediately - despite spreading a lie on that point - there's really no reason that we shouldn't have gone all in to make sure our Afghan allies got out.  Unless of course you think "peace" with the Taliban is possible and worth it, in which case, you wouldn't want to issue any new aggravation during the exit even if the Taliban acts moderately terrible.   That's Real Politik at its worst, but that may be what occurred and why Biden is willing to lie about what he could have done and declare this a success.

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Among national political figures, no one had better insights a decade ago that the Afghan regime was never going to be able to stand on its own than Joe Biden, who was the loudest voice in the Obama Administration for reducing our involvement then.

Assuming you believe that, and there are other less flattering reasons to believe Joe had the position he did, doesn't that just further compound Biden's guilt for lying about the collapse?  If he had no illusions, then his pushing the Afghan President to put out false information about how well things were going seems callously designed as an attempt to keep a lid on things just long enough for him to pull out and leave our allies to face the firing squads.  It would literally look like he sold out all of our Afghan allies to try and save just the citizens and soldiers based on the callous knowledge that Americans care about dead Americans far more than even thousands of our non-American allies betrayed in murdered.

That's not moral courage.   

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #559 on: September 07, 2021, 05:30:22 PM »
One big question is if we knew everything that happened was going to happen should and would we have done the exact same thing we did anyway?

Biden supporters and Biden himself seem to be saying yes, absolutely.  It went as well as it possibly could have. No regrets.

It's a very dangerous combination having our government not admit its mistakes and having the people who put them in power refuse to hold them accountable.

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #560 on: September 07, 2021, 06:44:08 PM »
One big question is if we knew everything that happened was going to happen should and would we have done the exact same thing we did anyway?

Biden supporters and Biden himself seem to be saying yes, absolutely.

I think that's true.  Once we decided that the Taliban would rule the country in the near future, our focus changed to not killing them and creating "new" incidents for them to be outraged about.  Look at it through the lens of a new government in Afghanistan, one that is negative but not necessarily actively hostile to you.  Do you order strikes knowing that you're protecting a failed government, that will be out of power immediately, and knowing that you're literally attacking the new government?

Real Politik.

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It went as well as it possibly could have.

It did not, no version of objective reality agrees that it did.  Propaganda on this point will be relentless.

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No regrets.

If it's true its because they're social paths.  I happen to think they have lots of regrets, but I'm even less charitable, and I think they regret the media impact more than the lost lives.

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It's a very dangerous combination having our government not admit its mistakes and having the people who put them in power refuse to hold them accountable.

The danger is in having a "media" that covers up the governments mistakes, and a polity that actively supports a government even when its lying to them (and gets caught).  Every area of poiltics is completely tainted with partisan alter calls to the point that no policy - no matter how horrible - that isn't directly related to a sacred cow has any consequence.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #561 on: September 08, 2021, 12:13:42 PM »
I don't know what TV news talking heads are doing, but wapo, BBC, and nyt have been pointing to the withdrawal as a disaster and splattering stories everywhere about the negative. Most polls show that biden voters agree and that as a result his approval overall has plunged.

So I don't get this concept of unwavering support without criticism.

Greg Davidson

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #562 on: September 08, 2021, 12:36:22 PM »
Cherry,

If Biden thought the Afghani government was likely to fail, should he have said so in public? What would have been the consequences of him saying, "There's a good chance that the Afghani government is likely to collapse."

I actually believe that the US government under-estimated the weakness of the Ghani regime (in part because of misleading inputs from Pentagon leadership -- something that Biden was privately criticizing a decade earlier). But still, if telling the truth about the regime's weakness would increase that weakness, what would you recommend that a President of the United States should do?

Greg Davidson

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #563 on: September 08, 2021, 12:38:57 PM »
Seriati,

Can you identify a single Republican politician or pundit who had a better plan for the end-game Afghanistan? If so, can you please provide a link? 

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #564 on: September 08, 2021, 12:53:36 PM »
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It's a very dangerous combination having our government not admit its mistakes and having the people who put them in power refuse to hold them accountable.

Hey, we survived four long years of the Trump Administration.  So how bad could it be?  ;D

Because the Trump Administration was nothing but a government not admitting, and actively denying and often lying about, its mistakes, and the Republicans refusing to hold them accountable, if not actively supporting them and their denials.

And if you want to hold our government accountable, how do you propose to hold the Trump Administration accountable for this debacle?  Or the Obama Administration?  Or the Bush 2 Administration?  Or should the Biden Administration alone pay for it, because they are the last ones holding the bag and it's politically convenient for Conservatives to do so? :)

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #565 on: September 08, 2021, 05:03:20 PM »
Seriati,

Can you identify a single Republican politician or pundit who had a better plan for the end-game Afghanistan? If so, can you please provide a link?

Beats me, not aware that anyone but the President and the Pentagon are responsible for that kind of plan.  Is it your experience that politicians routinely publish some kind of battle plans for others to review for military situations over which they don't have direct control?  Virtually every aspirational statement published was better than what we got from Biden in reality.

If you want to see what the bipartisan commission recommended to Biden in February it's here:  https://www.usip.org/publications/2021/02/afghanistan-study-group-final-report-pathway-peace-afghanistan

Otherwise, I view your "challenge" as a demand for nonsense.  Virtually anyone could have come up with a better plan than what we got.  In fact, it's hard to imagine that you can do this challenge in reverse.  Can you site to the "worse plans" that were put forward by "Democrat politicians or pundits" that establish this was the best one possible?

How many plans did you review in reaching your conclusion that this was the "best" plan?

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #566 on: September 22, 2021, 10:30:15 AM »
Everything I'm thinking as I look at story after story, this author just put into words.

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/573322-the-press-ever-so-politely-turns-on-biden-a-troubles-mount

"It's almost pointless to try to imagine what kind of press treatment any Republican would receive under similar circumstances. We've seen that movie one too many times.

And then there's the most insidious bias of all: the bias of omission."

------------------------------------------------

It's no longer the mainstream media or even the lamestream media. What we've got now is full blown Baghdad Bob media.

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #567 on: September 23, 2021, 05:36:02 PM »
That's one heck of a link Cherry.  Hard to imagine how anyone can defend this administration at all, or defend the media with a straight face.  Our system can't work if the media is constantly lying, covering up and ignoring news solely for partisan advantage.

LetterRip

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #568 on: September 23, 2021, 06:53:19 PM »
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With multiple vaccines and more than 75 percent of the U.S. population receiving at least one dose, COVID-19 was supposed to be almost an afterthought at this point. Instead, the U.S. daily death toll approaches 2,000.

What is he smoking, it is around 64% of the population has received at least one dose as of September 20th,

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1202065/population-with-covid-vaccine-by-state-us/

Herd immunity for Alpha with an Ro of 4 was at 80% vaccinated  (1 - 1/Ro = .8 )  or so of total population being FULLY vaccinated (partial vaccination gives a lower effectiveness of around .6 So .8/.6 would be 133% of the population needed to be vaccinated for Alpha if everyone only had one dose), given a vaccine effectiveness of 98%.  Delta with an Ro of 8 requires around 87.5% of the total population be FULLY vaccinated if the vaccine were 98% effective, at 80% effective it requires essentially full population to be vaccinated. (87.5/.8 = 110%).

Also almost all the hospitalizations and deaths are from unvaccinated individuals who also refuse to wear masks.  Biden has made an extraordinary effort to ensure everyone has access to vaccines, so it is squarely on those refusing to be vaccinated and refusing to wear masks.

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Violent crime in American cities continues to outpace pre-pandemic numbers.

True, there was a 30% increase in 2020 (Ie during Trump administration), so far about a 10% increase in 2021,

https://www.vox.com/22578430/murder-crime-2020-2021-covid-19-pandemic

Note that other violent crime is actually down,

https://time.com/6086558/us-homicides-violent-crime-rates/

It is rather bizarre "why hasn't Biden completely reversed trends that were occuring under Trump in Biden's first partial year in office".

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Inflation continues to skyrocket, raising deep concerns among voters of all stripes. And voters overwhelmingly blame the guy in charge.

Well people are dumb.  Almost all of the inflation is from increased used car prices because car manufacturers canceled their microchip orders and thus new cars are less available, and from increased lumber prices because lumber mills cut production because they projected demand would be down due to the pandemic.  Both of those happened before Biden was in office.

The border 'surge' - this is largely due to a change in policy by the Trump administration (in response to COVID) that Biden hasn't reversed.  A switch from Apprehensions to Expulsions.  An apprehension the person is taken into custody and thus can't make another attempt until they are released.  An explusion the person might retry again after each expulsion till they give up.  The reason for the change is concern of concentrating people and spreading COVID.

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Through the first nine months of FY 2021, when CBP recorded a total of 1,119,204 border encounters, the number of “unique encounters” (people who have not been taken into custody in the previous 12 months) was 690,718 . By comparison, over the same period in FY 2019, CBP recorded 780,479 border encounters, of which 721,328 were unique encounters—over 30,000 more than in FY 2021.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/rising-border-encounters-in-2021

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/13/migrant-encounters-at-u-s-mexico-border-are-at-a-21-year-high/

The repeated expulsions appear to be single adult males - mostly farm immigrants.  So once harvest season ends, it will probably return to baseline.

Regarding COVID-19 boosters, he got approval for the vulnerable groups, those at less risk the FDA wants more information, which is reasonably prudent.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 07:00:47 PM by LetterRip »

Mynnion

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #569 on: September 24, 2021, 11:05:15 AM »
Does failure to report a major story fall into this category?  I scanned Fox and failed to see anything about the Arizona audit draft report.  Something may be there but if so it is not on the primary feed.  Seems to me that after suggesting for 8 months that there was fraud they would be thrilled to show there wasn't..........

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #570 on: September 24, 2021, 12:25:11 PM »
Fox stories on 'open borders' are encouraging people to seek asylum only to be turned back as the boarders which in fact are not 'open'.

In their partisanship spin they are part of the problem and a example of helping to create the thing they say they fear. And Or running a play, Which play book is that in... create the problem that you then use to make your point against the 'other'' and gain power...


cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #571 on: September 24, 2021, 01:25:23 PM »
The borders are pretty open at least for women and children and many families. Many are getting through, being given the right color coded tickets and transportation to various cities where charities are helping to get them settled.

As usual, men and especially single men face the brunt of governmental discrimination and abuse.

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #572 on: September 24, 2021, 01:53:45 PM »
As opposed to the previous administration, which did it's best to bestow discrimination and abuse equally to all poor brown and black people, regardless of age or sex.  ;D

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #573 on: September 24, 2021, 03:31:54 PM »
The borders are pretty open at least for women and children and many families. Many are getting throughbeing saved, being given the right color coded tickets and transportation to various cities where charities are helping to get them settled.

As usual, men and especially single men face the brunt of governmental discrimination and abuse.

Fixed it for you.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #574 on: September 24, 2021, 07:24:10 PM »
Being saved? Being saved from what? From the living conditions just about everyone else in their country is enduring? Horrible living conditions that are shared by too many people across the planet. And too many refers both to the number from a humanitarian standpoint as well as from the standpoint of the number of people we can save by letting them come here. By that measure, hundreds of millions if not billions of people the world over are entitled to come to America. We're seeing the results of telling them to come one and come all. And this is still just the beginning.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #575 on: September 24, 2021, 08:02:50 PM »
More of Joe Biden's lies:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/border-patrol-agents-biden-backs-claims-whipping-promises-agents-pay

"To see people treated like they did, horses barely running over, people being strapped – it's outrageous," Biden said, making a whipping motion with his hand. "I promise you, those people will pay. There will be an investigation underway now and there will be consequences. There will be consequences."

...

"Claims that agents, who were using long reins to control their horses, were using "whips" were quickly debunked by officials and other agents – but activists and elected Democrats have continued to fuel it. The photographer who took the images said Friday he did not see any agents whipping migrants."

...

"Nobody was struck by a rein, not one person was struck by a rein, not one person was run over by those horses. They used the tactics they were trained to use, to do the job [Biden] sent them out to do -- these are executive branch employees," he said. "He sent them out there to do the job, and now he's criticizing them because his base wants them to."

------------------------------------------------

He couldn't even wait for the facts. Making that whipping motion with his hands while he went biblical bearing false witness is classic Joe.

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #576 on: September 27, 2021, 01:18:49 PM »
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With multiple vaccines and more than 75 percent of the U.S. population receiving at least one dose, COVID-19 was supposed to be almost an afterthought at this point. Instead, the U.S. daily death toll approaches 2,000.

What is he smoking, it is around 64% of the population has received at least one dose as of September 20th,

He should have stated it, but the 75% number is the percentage of eligible adults that have received the vaccine.  It seems to me that was a pretty obvious thing to check, is there  a reason that you instead acted like he was crazy?  (Other than to try and call the guy a liar)

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Herd immunity for Alpha with an Ro of 4 was at 80% vaccinated  (1 - 1/Ro = .8 )  or so of total population being FULLY vaccinated (partial vaccination gives a lower effectiveness of around .6 So .8/.6 would be 133% of the population needed to be vaccinated for Alpha if everyone only had one dose), given a vaccine effectiveness of 98%.  Delta with an Ro of 8 requires around 87.5% of the total population be FULLY vaccinated if the vaccine were 98% effective, at 80% effective it requires essentially full population to be vaccinated. (87.5/.8 = 110%).

I see you didn't adjust that for the age of the population involved.  It should be obvious if you understand the things you're citing that the percentage of children vaccinated is going to be far less material to the herd immunity question than the percentage of adults.  And why is that again?  Oh yeah, because children are not generally spreading it to each other or to related adults, the transmission is almost entirely adult to adult and adult to children.

Pretty much you're citing an "average" concept even though there are known groups with material differences that just happen to be both the least likely to spread and the least likely to need a vaccination.  When that group is the reason for the difference between the 75% and the 64% numbers is almost like you're spreading misinformation.  Wait, that's exactly what it is, "true" facts that are not as material as you imply.

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Also almost all the hospitalizations and deaths are from unvaccinated individuals who also refuse to wear masks.  Biden has made an extraordinary effort to ensure everyone has access to vaccines, so it is squarely on those refusing to be vaccinated and refusing to wear masks.

Yep.  Every adult should get vaccinated, there's nothing demonstrating that the risks of the vaccine are greater than the risks of contracting COVID.  For kids it seems to be the opposite but mostly because absent any risk factors they seem not to be at material risk from COVID and there is a known heart risk associated with the vaccine.

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Violent crime in American cities continues to outpace pre-pandemic numbers.

True, there was a 30% increase in 2020 (Ie during Trump administration), so far about a 10% increase in 2021,

Wow, totally dishonest.  How is Trump responsible for Democratic mayors, governors and prosecutors making horrible changes that caused crime to increase?  He's not.  The DNC's extreme left owns the entire crime wave.

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Note that other violent crime is actually down,

It's not down, what's "down" is prosecuting it, arresting people for it and generally holding people to account for criminal behavior.  But sure if you release 100% of criminals rather than prosecute, intimidate police into not making arrests or enforcing laws, and generally announce that you're not going to arrest, prosecute or hold criminals, then you can cite to how the "official" statistics have declined.

Do you ever get tired of carrying water for people spinning reality?

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Well people are dumb.  Almost all of the inflation is from increased used car prices because car manufacturers canceled their microchip orders and thus new cars are less available, and from increased lumber prices because lumber mills cut production because they projected demand would be down due to the pandemic.  Both of those happened before Biden was in office.

Sort of.  COVID disrupted supply chains.  The plants making the micro chips were closed (because of COVID) while the demand for chips was up (because of the increased use of electronics at home).  So what you ascribe to some kind of shortsideness ignores the reality that there were less chips at a time more chips were being called for.

When you add that to the Biden admins poor ideas it gets worse.  The idea to add even more stimulous at a time when there is no lack of capital is Biden's.  When you have production shortages and add capital you get inflation.  Subsidizing people not working when we have worker shortages is Biden's.  Getting production back online requires workers, life going back to normal requires workers, unfortunately the DNC's voting strategy requires helpless citizens reliant on the government.  To control inflation you need to get those people back to work to raise the production to clear those bottlenecks.

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The border 'surge' - this is largely due to a change in policy by the Trump administration (in response to COVID) that Biden hasn't reversed.

There's no good faith way to take this lie.  It's a flat lie.  The border crisis is 100% Biden's and 100% the fault of reversing Trump policies.  There's no good faith way to claim the opposite.

I'm honestly stunned that anyone could believe some of the things you're claiming.  I really suggest finding some news sources that aren't just echo chambers.

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #577 on: September 27, 2021, 01:27:20 PM »
Seriati,

Can you identify a single Republican politician or pundit who had a better plan for the end-game Afghanistan? If so, can you please provide a link?

Most of the Republican plans had the Military being the last ones to leave, not the first.

That would have made a huge difference.

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #578 on: September 27, 2021, 01:47:33 PM »
Quote
Oh yeah, because children are not generally spreading it to each other or to related adults, the transmission is almost entirely adult to adult and adult to children.

This is probably based on bad information, Seriati.  CIDRAP noted that, among families, children spread the Covid-19 to adults only about 20 percent of the time, but this was back in December 2020, before the more-easily-spread Delta variant became common.  And the study authors said, at that time, that the children's "lack of severe symptoms may have allowed their infections to otherwise escape detection."

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #579 on: September 27, 2021, 02:39:05 PM »
Its not based on bad information, there's accurate information available on a global basis if you get outside the repackaged American news.

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #580 on: September 27, 2021, 05:07:32 PM »
Its not based on bad information, there's accurate information available on a global basis if you get outside the repackaged American news.

However, the claim about the information being dated is still valid. Delta Variant is putting a lot of kids in the hospital, and that tends to point towards their friends, although getting hard data one way or the other is going to take awhile... And by then the under 12 crowd should hopefully be largely immunized.

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #581 on: September 27, 2021, 05:32:32 PM »
Its not based on bad information, there's accurate information available on a global basis if you get outside the repackaged American news.

Until you can prove it--until you can point to the basis of your belief--it is just some useless opinion, just like the Big Lie that there was widespread fraud in the last Presidential election.

If you've seen some facts that lead you to that contention, then show them to me.  But don't expect me to try to hunt them down.  There are too many imbeciles spewing pseudo-facts that are swallowed by the gullible for me to wade through them on my own.   And any idiot can always say that the "real" facts are just around the corner where I haven't looked yet.  ::)  It proves nothing.  It only makes me think that you are basing your contentions on something you'd like to believe is true, but has no basis i reality.

Show me the facts, or keep you useless opinions to yourself.  :P

You used to understand that, Seriati.  What the hell happened to you?  :'(

yossarian22c

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #582 on: September 27, 2021, 05:38:39 PM »
Its not based on bad information, there's accurate information available on a global basis if you get outside the repackaged American news.
...

You used to understand that, Seriati.  What the hell happened to you?  :'(

Israel's experience with reopening schools before Delta showed spread. So I'm guessing his sources weren't Israeli.

TheDrake

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #583 on: September 27, 2021, 10:56:04 PM »
Here are some sources showing spread between children.

Quote
Goldstein E, Lipsitch M, Cevik M. On the Effect of Age on the Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in Households, Schools, and the Community. J Infect Dis 2021;223(3):362-369. doi:10.1093/infdis/jiaa691
Zhu Y, Bloxham CJ, Hulme KD, et al. A Meta-analysis on the Role of Children in Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 in Household Transmission Clusters. Clin Infect Dis 2021;72(12):e1146-e1153. doi:10.1093/cid/ciaa1825
Atherstone C, Siegel M, Schmitt-Matzen E, et al. SARS-CoV-2 Transmission Associated with High School Wrestling Tournaments – Florida, December 2020-January 2021. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2021;70(4):141-143. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm7004e4
Lewis NM, Chu VT, Ye D, et al. Household Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in the United States. Clin Infect Dis 2020. doi:10.1093/cid/ciaa1166
Szablewski CM, Chang KT, Brown MM, et al. SARS-CoV-2 Transmission and Infection Among Attendees of an Overnight Camp – Georgia, June 2020. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2020;69(31):1023-1025. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm6931e1
Chu VT, Yousaf AR, Chang K, et al. Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from Children and Adolescents. medRxiv 2020. doi:10.1101/2020.10.10.20210492
Fontanet A, Tondeur L, Grant R, et al. SARS-CoV-2 infection in schools in a northern French city: a retrospective serological cohort study in an area of high transmission, France, January to April 2020. Eurosurveillance 2021;26(15):2001695. doi:10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2021.26.15.2001695

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #584 on: September 28, 2021, 08:59:53 PM »
https://news.yahoo.com/obama-says-open-borders-unsustainable-151600499.html

"Obama says open borders are 'unsustainable' and calls for immigration reform"

This is misleading and the media constantly just runs with it. What's misleading about it then? The lie is that immigration reform is anything other than open borders by another name.

I mean I could get into it but since it's so obvious there's hardly any point. But the proof is simple enough, almost mathematical. What part of any suggested "immigration reform" aka open borders is going to keep the same number or even more economic migrants from coming here to claim asylum just like all of the past and current ones have done? No part of it will do that. There is no border security or denial of entrance provisions in any so called immigration reform. And if there was, they wouldn't be enforced because there is no reason not to put them in place first, right now, except that there is no intention to ever have them at all. Just like with the last amnesty and the promise of border security. This is just more rope a dope, Lucy and the football.

A more honest version of that headline would be "Obama says open borders are 'unsustainable' and calls for open borders anyway under the guise of so called immigration reform".

Sorry I'm sure we've been over this but I just get tired of the media and their lies as well as the ridiculously transparent way they cover for the lies of their favored political party.

We hear that they "just want a better life." No doubt. Many of the Haitians coming now had good lives, homes and cars and jobs such as in welding in various Latin American countries. And we're going to let many of them in. We have Dreamers seeking amnesty and their parents brought them from South Korea. Great people, no doubt, but if the standard to come to America is that you want a better life than that opens our immigration system up to just about the entire world. And that is immigration reform. You get here, you stay long enough illegally to set down roots, and especially if you have children, then you stay permanently. That's our system now and there's nothing in any proposed "immigration reform" that's going to change it because the amnesty is just going to be the next in a line of many and any promises to the contrary are bogus, just like they were the last time.

Does anyone in the media ever ask these people like Obama the simple question, "So what part of the immigration reform that you have in mind would prevent the current crisis?"

No. Never. Because nothing they have in mind would do anything to prevent or ameliorate the immigration crisis. All of it would only make it worse just like what Biden's done so far made it worse.

oldbrian

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #585 on: September 29, 2021, 09:16:18 AM »
Cherrypoptart:
Quote
if the standard to come to America is that you want a better life than that opens our immigration system up to just about the entire world

When did that stop?  All of our ancestors came here under that idea.  Our native-born population is shrinking.  It's not like we don't have any more room.

yossarian22c

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #586 on: September 29, 2021, 09:23:16 AM »
Cherrypoptart:
Quote
if the standard to come to America is that you want a better life than that opens our immigration system up to just about the entire world

When did that stop?  All of our ancestors came here under that idea.  Our native-born population is shrinking.  It's not like we don't have any more room.

That stopped a long time ago.

Our native born population isn't shrinking. I think the US is still averaging slightly over two kids per woman.

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #587 on: September 29, 2021, 10:04:44 AM »
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Our native born population isn't shrinking. I think the US is still averaging slightly over two kids per woman.

The average appears slightly lower then two kids per woman , or has fallen lower.

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The U.S. birthrate fell by 4 percent in 2020, hitting a record low, according to the Centers for Disease Control. People are having fewer children than the 2.1 needed to maintain a steady population. That's been true for years across all domestic communities.

According to a Brookings analysis, "U.S. fertility rates are likely to be considerably below replacement levels for the foreseeable future. This is driven by more than a decade of falling birth rates and declining births at all ages for multiple cohorts of women, not simply the aftermath of the pandemic-induced reduction in births."

Researchers are still trying to figure out exactly why people want fewer children. Others are finding that even if they wanted more children, a rise in infertility might make making them a lot harder.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #588 on: September 29, 2021, 11:00:06 AM »
"When did that stop?  All of our ancestors came here under that idea.  Our native-born population is shrinking.  It's not like we don't have any more room."

If that's the standard, that everyone who wants to make their life better can come to America, then it should just be called what it is, open borders.

The problem is the lying.

Well, one problem anyway.

How is "fixing the immigration system" going to stop masses of people from ending up on our borders wanting to come in just like we see now?

Unless we're just going to let everyone in or we're going to stop letting people in that's going to continue. And Democrats have no intention of not letting people in.

rightleft22

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #589 on: September 29, 2021, 11:30:15 AM »
Quote
How is "fixing the immigration system" going to ...
Lots of space between OPEN and CLOSED.
I would think that "Fixing" the system would require finding a balance and consistency in application and messaging. If everyone including the immigrants and asylum seekers fully understood the process and rules I'm assuming that would be helpful.

It should not be expected that anyone be 100% happy with the system. My feeling is that the problem behind the immigration problem that needs to be addressed is the tribalism of  either or , all or nothing thinking

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #590 on: September 29, 2021, 01:18:25 PM »
This story is actually the exact opposite of misleading or false claims by the media but I'll include it anyway because it's also nice to see the media setting the record straight every now and then when hate hoaxes and the media that ran with them had set people off.

https://news.yahoo.com/racist-graffiti-led-walkouts-made-141200977.html

"Racist graffiti found in a Missouri high school's bathrooms was the product of a "hate hoax," the school district announced Tuesday.

When faculty at Parkway Central High School in St. Louis County announced that racist graffiti had been uncovered earlier in September, students and community members across the district staged a walkout in condemnation of the incident.

However, the culprit behind the graffiti was a nonwhite student, according to a letter sent to parents, Supt. Keith Marty announced Tuesday."

Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #591 on: September 30, 2021, 12:16:24 PM »
Its not based on bad information, there's accurate information available on a global basis if you get outside the repackaged American news.

However, the claim about the information being dated is still valid. Delta Variant is putting a lot of kids in the hospital, and that tends to point towards their friends, although getting hard data one way or the other is going to take awhile... And by then the under 12 crowd should hopefully be largely immunized.

Quote
In a second MMWR study today, authors show pediatric hospitalization rates reaching pandemic highs by Aug 14, but the proportion of kids severely ill with COVID-19 remained the same before and after Delta became the dominant strain in the United States.
From the Univ. of Minn. at the start of September.  https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/09/child-covid-hospital-cases-low-vaccination-states

Its not based on bad information, there's accurate information available on a global basis if you get outside the repackaged American news.

Until you can prove it--until you can point to the basis of your belief--it is just some useless opinion, just like the Big Lie that there was widespread fraud in the last Presidential election.

Prove what?   That children are unlikely to spread to each other?  Most of the research shows that.  I can only assume that you've been reading spin not actual research. Even the CDC's data, if you get past the spin shows the minimal impact on kids.

This is a link to the CDC report that the Univ. of Minn. was referring to https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7036e2.htm#F1_down .  Take a look at figure 2.   The zero to four (unvaccinated) and 12-17 (eligible for vaccination) lines are roughly the same.  But the 4-12 (not eligible for vaccines at all) is much lower than the others.  That 4-12 line shows that there's 0.5 kids in that age group per 100k such kids hospitalized, and even that is "high" because of the Delta variant.

Or look here for more recent data with it getting up to 1.1.  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html.

Or look at this one that shows it for every age group.  https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/covid19_3.html  At every time, 5-11 is the lowest rate of hospitalization for any age group.

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If you've seen some facts that lead you to that contention, then show them to me.  But don't expect me to try to hunt them down.  There are too many imbeciles spewing pseudo-facts that are swallowed by the gullible for me to wade through them on my own.   And any idiot can always say that the "real" facts are just around the corner where I haven't looked yet.  ::)  It proves nothing.  It only makes me think that you are basing your contentions on something you'd like to believe is true, but has no basis i reality.

Show me the facts, or keep you useless opinions to yourself.  :P

You used to understand that, Seriati.  What the hell happened to you?  :'(

Nothing happened to me. I keep digging until I get to data.  It's the world that's different, everyone just looks for summaries and analysis and trust people they shouldn't who compile the most useful statistics for the point of view they want to push.

Honestly, I don't believe you've read much of the underlying data on point.  If you had you wouldn't have "called me out" and instead you would have pointed to the factual information you think makes your case.  Again, what's changed is you seem to think your opinion is somehow the "default" without a basis and anything pushing you off it has to be gold plated, triple confirmed - and even then may not be enough.  Why is that?

The best evidence clearly shows that 4-12 is the least at risk age group - even without being vaccinated.  The best evidence suggests that super spreaders are connected with forceful exhulation (ie shouting and singing and coughing) in enclosed spaces.  The best evidence suggests that kids are most likely to be infected by adults and not by other kids.  I mean heck, our school system released their aggregate records on quaratines.  Over 5000 kids quarantined for 10 days or more at a time.  3 cases of COVID spread in that group, 2 of which were spread teacher to student and 1 of which was kid to kid.  And that's on an entire K-12 system which includes late teenagers, who are far more likely to be able to spread the infection effectively.


Seriati

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #592 on: September 30, 2021, 12:31:01 PM »
Here are some sources showing spread between children.

Quote
Goldstein E, Lipsitch M, Cevik M. On the Effect of Age on the Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in Households, Schools, and the Community. J Infect Dis 2021;223(3):362-369. doi:10.1093/infdis/jiaa691
Zhu Y, Bloxham CJ, Hulme KD, et al. A Meta-analysis on the Role of Children in Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 in Household Transmission Clusters. Clin Infect Dis 2021;72(12):e1146-e1153. doi:10.1093/cid/ciaa1825
Atherstone C, Siegel M, Schmitt-Matzen E, et al. SARS-CoV-2 Transmission Associated with High School Wrestling Tournaments – Florida, December 2020-January 2021. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2021;70(4):141-143. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm7004e4
Lewis NM, Chu VT, Ye D, et al. Household Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in the United States. Clin Infect Dis 2020. doi:10.1093/cid/ciaa1166
Szablewski CM, Chang KT, Brown MM, et al. SARS-CoV-2 Transmission and Infection Among Attendees of an Overnight Camp – Georgia, June 2020. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2020;69(31):1023-1025. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm6931e1
Chu VT, Yousaf AR, Chang K, et al. Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from Children and Adolescents. medRxiv 2020. doi:10.1101/2020.10.10.20210492
Fontanet A, Tondeur L, Grant R, et al. SARS-CoV-2 infection in schools in a northern French city: a retrospective serological cohort study in an area of high transmission, France, January to April 2020. Eurosurveillance 2021;26(15):2001695. doi:10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2021.26.15.2001695

So here is the link to the first study you cite.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7386533/

I take it you didn't actually read it.  It's a meta-study, and it discusses in some detail the lower infection rates in children and the lower infection rates  from children.  It literally lists out the evidence that viral shedding increases with age.  It pretty much says that  elementary schools can be reopened with minimal risk, and that middle/high school openings could increase the spread.  That looks like the opinion they had at the start because they spend some time trying to discount the data they reviewed so they can make that conservative recommendation. 

Is it worth reading more when it's clear that you didn't and are mischaracterizing what they say?  No one has said children can't spread it, what I said is they are unlikely to do so - in fact they are the least likely to do so.  This study actually confirms that so why did you think it was relevant?

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #593 on: September 30, 2021, 01:52:05 PM »
Quote
Prove what?   That children are unlikely to spread to each other?  Most of the research shows that.  I can only assume that you've been reading spin not actual research. Even the CDC's data, if you get past the spin shows the minimal impact on kids.

Thank you for the data, Seriati.  You're dismissing my objection by shrugging it off is what ticked me off.

However, your data does not seem to back up your claim.

Hospitalization rates, although being an indication of how many children come down with the disease, does not necessarily indicate how many children have gotten the disease.  The fact that children between 4 and 12 have fewer hospitalizations would indicate that they have greater resistance to Covid-19, especially since they are not vaccinated.  If true, this would also bolster the claim that children catching the disease are underreported, since we could assume that lower hospitalization rates could easily translate into less severe symptoms for those not hospitalized.

But greater resistance does not necessarily translate into a much lower rate of transmission.  While noses that aren't as runny would mean fewer viruses being spread, I would question whether it would be sufficient enough to prevent contagion.  I mean, if children spread, let's say, only 10,000,000 viruses an hour vs. the usual adult amount of 100,000,000 viruses an hour, would that really mean a 10% of the spread in the enclosed space of a household or a crowded classroom?  At some point, a sick person will saturate the environment with the viruses, and adding another few hundred thousand won't increase the spread.  But is that point at 10,000,000 or a higher number?

Also, if you assume that higher hospitalization rates correspond with higher transmission rates, are you saying that 0- to 4-year-olds spread the disease as much as 12- to 17-year-olds?  The data and your interpretation would indicate that. :)

The studies that TheDrake sourced are much more to the point.  But the one you linked to still recommends smaller class sizes and other mitigating measures in primary schools.  Why recommend mitigating measures when the disease does not generally spread to other children without them?  ???

So your original statement to which I objected:
Quote
Oh yeah, because children are not generally spreading it to each other or to related adults, the transmission is almost entirely adult to adult and adult to children.
is not proven, or even indicated from your data.  Most likely it just shows that children are not sickened as much by Covid-19 than the general population, and/or it is underreported, as my link suggested.  But it does not indicate that it spreads less from child to child, nor does it indicate that it does not easily spread from child to adult.

Fenring

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #594 on: September 30, 2021, 02:09:18 PM »
So your original statement to which I objected:
Quote
Oh yeah, because children are not generally spreading it to each other or to related adults, the transmission is almost entirely adult to adult and adult to children.
is not proven, or even indicated from your data.  Most likely it just shows that children are not sickened as much by Covid-19 than the general population, and/or it is underreported, as my link suggested.  But it does not indicate that it spreads less from child to child, nor does it indicate that it does not easily spread from child to adult.

It's worth pointing out that while your interpretation may be correct, it also suffers from a no true Scotsman problem. Basically, no matter whether there are more hospitalizations or not, it could be that they have it but are not hospitalized; but whether they even have symptoms or not, it could be that they just have mild or no symptoms and are still spreading it; and whether or not we know that they are spreading it, it could be that the potential of that warrants taking action. Again, you may be right, in theory. But in practice it sounds like even a lack of evidence is being treated as if it was evidence anyhow, warranting particular policies. That's how it sounds to me, anyhow.

LetterRip

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #595 on: September 30, 2021, 02:36:12 PM »
Haven't had time to respond, and still don't but will post a quick note.

1) Children spread to shared household adults 60% more than those 65+ spread to shared household adults, and younger kids are more likely to do so than older kids.  So we can't make assumptions about Ro based upon infection susceptibility.  Children may actually have a higher Ro than many adults even if they are less succeptible to infection.

https://www.news4jax.com/health/2021/01/19/study-children-nearly-60-more-likely-than-older-adults-to-spread-covid-19/

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210817/youngest-kids-more-likely-spread-covid-to-family

2) Children are not uniform in susceptibility by age group.  Adolescents differ from preadolescents, which differ from infants and toddlers.  Nor do they have uniform spreading characteristics,

Quote
A new study by Public Health Ontario, published in JAMA Pediatrics finds that infants and toddlers (0-3 years) are less likely to bring SARS-CoV-2 into the home but are more likely to transmit SARS-CoV-2 compared with older children (14-17 years).

Also,

Quote
“I think [previous studies] were biased by the fact that children were sequestered at home,”  Dr. Tina V. Hartert, a respiratory epidemiologist at Vanderbilt University told the New York Times, who was not involved in the new study. “They were recommended not even to play with neighbors, they didn’t go to school, they didn’t go to day care”   

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2021/08/24/babies-and-toddlers-are-highly-contagious-for-covid-19/

2) Children and adults equally susceptible to household spread

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/12/study-kids-adults-equally-susceptible-home-covid-19-spread

3) Adults more likely to be source is at least partially an artifact of lock down decisions (homeschooling of children leads to them being far less likely to be a source of infection - see above quote)

4) Most of these studies were on the original COVID-19 strain, not Alpha or Delta - Delta with 1000x the viral load likely severely diminishes any differences in succeptibility and risk of spreading

For instance this recent study finds
Quote
Our results are contrary to previous findings that adolescents are less susceptible than older adults.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0242587

5) There are differences in ACE2 expression by age, which probably accounts for some differences in risk of susceptibility,

Quote
Among a cohort of 305 patients aged 4 to 60 years, older children (10-17 years old; n = 185), young adults (18-24 years old; n = 46), and adults (≥25 years old; n = 29) all had higher expression of ACE2 in the nasal epithelium compared with younger children (4-9 years old; n = 45), and ACE2 expression was higher with each subsequent age group after adjusting for sex and asthma.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2766522

It isn't clear to what degree it actually plays a role, or if it matters much given the vastly higher viral loads with Delta.

6) Calculating herd immunity - if you 'adjust' Ro due to susceptibility characteristics of a subgroup, then you have to adjust it for all subgroups.   So if you split Ro into Ro_adults and Ro_children, if one of them is lower, the other has to be higher to give the same Ro_total - which would give the essentially the same herd immunity threshold.  It will lead you to wanting to vaccinate specific subgroups sooner.  Note that Ro_children is not necessarily lower than that of adults - as we see children have a higher Ro than elderly adults for in household spread (When looking at more detailed spread we look at within group and between group spread with a different Ro for each, A->A, A->B, B->B, B->A).  Also Ro reflects spreading ability, not vulnerability to severe COVID-19 - elderly adults are more vulnerable, but it is unclear whether they are going to have a high Ro which depends heavily on social behavior and hygiene factors, not just immunological and susceptibility factors.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 02:47:08 PM by LetterRip »

LetterRip

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #596 on: September 30, 2021, 03:06:56 PM »
Also, studies comparing 'viral load' using PCR Ct are fairly useless for comparing how infective unvaccinated vs vaccinated are.  PCR can't differentiate between live infectious virus and antibody neutralized virus; dead virus; and degraded viral RNA.  You have to use plaque studies to actually determine 'infectious viral load' - which is what matters.  I posted a study (either here or arstechnica, can't find it right now) - that showed that for the same level of cell infection on a plaque essay - required a drastically lower Cycle threshold (Ct) for vaccinated (Ct is how many times you have to amplify a samples RNA to detect the virus in the sample, so lower Ct means mroe starting amount of viral RNA) - which means that most of the 'viral load' for vaccinated individuals is actually non-infective.

Wayward Son

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #597 on: September 30, 2021, 05:02:18 PM »
Quote
But in practice it sounds like even a lack of evidence is being treated as if it was evidence anyhow, warranting particular policies. That's how it sounds to me, anyhow.

It all depends on how cautious you want to be.  If you can't demonstrate that a group is spreading a disease, do you assume that they are, and possibly make them do pointless things to help reduce the imagined spread, or do you assume that they aren't, and risk increasing the spread of the disease and sending more people to the hospital and/or the grave?

Which is the more prudent policy? ;)

TheDeamon

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #598 on: September 30, 2021, 07:57:44 PM »
Cherrypoptart:
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if the standard to come to America is that you want a better life than that opens our immigration system up to just about the entire world

When did that stop?  All of our ancestors came here under that idea.  Our native-born population is shrinking.  It's not like we don't have any more room.

It stopped in the 1960's. That's when quotas based on race and nationality were imposed as I recall.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Misleading or false claims by the media
« Reply #599 on: October 01, 2021, 12:11:48 AM »
The question that never gets answered by Democrats and never gets asked of them by the media is how their proposed immigration reform will stop hundreds of thousands of people from migrating and showing up on our border causing the same type of crisis we're currently experiencing?

The dishonest part, which the media is complicit in promulgating, is how the crisis is used as an excuse to push through their agenda which when enacted will only make the crisis worse. We see that now with Biden who complained about Trump's policies and then proceeded to solve the problem his own way which just made it so much worse. The only way "immigration reform" doesn't cause the same border crisis we see now is if we just let almost everybody in.

I genuinely would like to know if I'm wrong how immigration reform will do anything but make the type of border crisis we are seeing right now even worse?

And you have to wonder about quotas. Who gets to set them? Do Americans get to set them or do we let everyone else in the world set our quotas for us by showing up on our doorstep and forcing their way in?