Author Topic: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich  (Read 80620 times)

Crunch

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #250 on: May 29, 2019, 06:52:26 PM »
Dude got appointed.  As far as Crunch is concerned that's as good as Jesus Christ showing up and calling her a liar on live TV.  It's a fact now.   ::)

It sounds like you just hit Stage II TDS.

D.W.

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #251 on: May 29, 2019, 11:22:41 PM »
Not yet.  Fortunately my condition will only advance upon further SC nominations or re-election.  Otherwise it's more an OMB hobby.  ;)

cherrypoptart

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #252 on: June 03, 2019, 03:53:14 AM »
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/jussie-smollett-bought-drugs-brothers-134357168.html

Jussie Smollett bought drugs from the brothers who staged alleged attack, documents show
Maeve McDermott - Maeve McDermott

"New documents released by Chicago police Thursday show Jussie Smollett discussing drugs with the two brothers who accused the "Empire" actor of paying them to stage an attack on him.

The texts were among the 460 pages released by the Cook County State's Attorney's Office and Chicago Police Department Thursday after a judge ordered Smollett's case file unsealed last week.

The documents show that Smollett initially communicated with Abimbola 'Abel' and Olabinjo “Ola Osundairo about buying marijuana, cocaine and ecstasy before enlisting them to stage his alleged attack on Jan. 29. The brothers later told Chicago police that Smollett paid them to stage the attack on him.

"It was found during the review of these text records that on various occasions Smollett would request that (redacted) procure items for Smollett which Smollett described as weed, molly, or Whitney, which the (case report) was familiar with being slang for cannabis and controlled substances," the documents read. "In particular, weed is slang for cannabis, molly is slang for ecstasy and whitney is slang for cocaine."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems like some serious obstruction of justice going on here.

Pete at Home

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #253 on: June 04, 2019, 06:34:40 PM »
Next time some leftwit starts spinning that propaganda about "white males and anti government protesters" posing the greatest terrorist threat, gonna ask if that includes Jussie Smollett'$ light white Nigerians

Crunch

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #254 on: November 20, 2019, 11:38:07 AM »
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Jussie Smollett is fighting back after months of silence, suing the City of Chicago, the brothers he is accused of paying to attack him and Chicago Police Department Chief for malicious prosecution. 


OMFG. Hahahahahahahahah ..... wheeze .....  hhahahhahaha.

I can’t wait for discovery.

LetterRip

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #255 on: November 20, 2019, 11:58:45 AM »
I don't see such a case being successful.

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A successful malicious prosecution claims requires that:

    the defendant begin or continue a criminal or civil legal proceeding
    without reasonable grounds to believe the allegations of the proceeding
    and with a purpose other than simply getting a judgment in the proceeding (called “malice” in legal terms)
    the defendant has lost the original “false” case he or she brought against the plaintiff, and
    the plaintiff was damaged by the defendant’s “false” case.

https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/personal-injury/what-malicious-prosecution-claim.html

Crunch

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #256 on: February 11, 2020, 05:35:20 PM »
The wheels of justice grind slowly:

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Former "Empire" actor Jussie Smollett was indicted Tuesday by a special prosecutor in Chicago investigating allegations he bogusly reported being the victim of a January 2019 hate-crime attack, officials said.

Smollett, 37, was indicted by special prosecutor Dan Webb, who was appointed by a Cook County judge to continue looking into his false allegations after the Cook County State’s Attorney Office dropped all charges against the actor, a source close to Smollett told ABC news.

wmLambert

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #257 on: February 11, 2020, 07:40:30 PM »
I wonder who will get the most attention: Smollett or the Cook County State’s Attorney Office that made the police so angry by cutting him loose?

LetterRip

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #258 on: December 03, 2021, 11:42:11 AM »

cherrypoptart

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #259 on: December 03, 2021, 02:32:43 PM »
“What happened today to @JussieSmollett must never be tolerated in this country. We must stand up and demand that we no longer give this hate safe harbor; that homophobia and racism have no place on our streets or in our hearts. We are with you, Jussie.” — Joe Biden

“@JussieSmollett is one of the kindest, most gentle human beings I know … This was an attempted modern-day lynching. No one should have to fear for their life because of their sexuality or color of their skin. We must confront this hate.” — then-Sen. Kamala Harris

“The racist, homophobic attack … is an affront to our humanity. No one should be attacked for who they are or whom they love. I pray that Jussie has a speedy recovery & that justice is served. May we all commit to ending this hate once & for all.” — Rep. Nancy Pelosi

“This is a sickening and outrageous attack, and horribly, it’s the latest of too many hate crimes against LGBTQ people and people of color. We are all responsible for condemning this behavior and every person who enables or normalizes it. Praying for Jussie and his family.” — Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand

“There is no such thing as ‘racially charged.’ This attack was not ‘possibly’ homophobic. It was a racist and homophobic attack. If you don’t like what is happening to our country, then work to change it. It is no one’s job to water down or sugar-coat the rise of hate crimes.” — Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

“Regarding the heinous attack on @JussieSmollett, yet another reminder that Trump’s ascendance and the resulting climate of hate has meant that lives have been increasingly at stake since 2015. Smollett could have been killed by those thugs screaming MAGA. Let that sink in.” — Karen Attiah, Washington Post editor

“The horrific attack on Jussie Smollett has no place in a decent human loving society. Homophobia existed before Trump, but there is no question that since he has injected his hatred into the American bloodstream, we are less decent, less human, & less loving. No intolerance! No DT!” — Director Rob Reiner

“Jussie Smollett was violently attacked by two white men who poured bleach on him and put a noose around his neck. He was targeted for being black and for being gay. THIS is why we have to have zero tolerance against homophobia and racism. Jussie’s life matters.” — Actress Olivia Munn

“Heartbroken and furious reading about the attack on @JussieSmollett. I want Trump and all MAGA lunatics to burn in Hell.” — Actor Billy Eichner

---------------------------------------------

Some quotes from our people courtesy of Ann Coulter, some of whom we are expecting to lead us against the wily Russians who are famous for using maskirovka as a common tactic, both military and political, as well as the Chinese whose Sun Tsu in The Art of War told us outright that "All warfare is based on deception."

And there we have our top two peeps Biden and Harris falling for such an obvious fraud from a third rate huckster, getting out in front of it and boldly proclaiming their gullibility for the entire world to see. That doesn't bode well for Ukraine and Taiwan.

LetterRip

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #260 on: December 03, 2021, 02:34:04 PM »
And there we have our top two peeps Biden and Harris falling for such an obvious fraud, getting out in front of it and boldly proclaiming their gullibility for the entire world to see. That doesn't bode well for Ukraine and Taiwan.

There was zero reason to believe it was a fake attack at the time those tweets were made, so it is absurd to condemn them for responding the way they did and there is zero reason to claim they were 'gullible'.  Gullible is believing something absurb, not taking ssomething at face value that is highly plausible based on the evidence at that time.

Racists and homophobes have often attacks on black individuals and on homosexual individuals.

For instance here is a recent sentencing for a racist with a knife who attacked a black man.

Quote
Hougen confronted a 29-year-old Black man in Santa Cruz and shouted racial slurs at him, according to evidence at the trial. Hougen also slashed at the man’s head, chest and stomach with a nine-inch knife while screaming slurs, officials said. A witness said that Hougen stabbed and slashed at the man’s chest and head 10 to 20 times, according to the news release.

Santa Cruz police said that the attack occurred on July 5, 2020 on San Lorenzo Boulevard and Broadway Street, according to a Facebook post. The victim “was able to fend off the attacker” until police arrived, they said.

Hougen was on probation after pleading no contest to charges that he “committed a racially motivated assault on a different Black man in 2018,” according to federal officials.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/12/03/santa-cruz-man-sentenced-to-more-than-6-years-in-prison-in-hate-crime-knife-attack/
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 02:40:21 PM by LetterRip »

cherrypoptart

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #261 on: December 03, 2021, 02:47:28 PM »
Zero reason to believe it was a hoax?

A couple of racist homophobic white guys in a pickup driving around Chicago at 2 in the morning during a polar vortex carrying a noose and bleach yelling this is MAGA country, okay so far I guess that's plausible, but then they actually watch the show Empire and recognize Smollett from it? Come on now.


Wayward Son

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #262 on: December 03, 2021, 04:28:20 PM »
Not everyone is as discerning as you are, cherry. ;)

I know you have never made a mistake in believing the initial reports of a situation, but not all of us are that smart.  Sometimes we believe what we'd like to believe before all the evidence is in, especially if the reports seem plausible.

LetterRip

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #263 on: December 03, 2021, 08:53:27 PM »
Zero reason to believe it was a hoax?

Yes, at the level of knowledge that the typical person had of the event at the time - 'racists attack black gay man'.  The details of when, weather, etc. were probably not something that people were aware of.  Also Empire is on Fox, so presumably they run ads for it frequently, so it wouldn't be surprising for racists to have seen ads and thus be able to recognize Smollett without watching Empire. I've never watched any show or interview, etc. involving a Kardashian, but I could possibly recognize Kim.

Fenring

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #264 on: December 03, 2021, 09:09:27 PM »
Here's a timeline of the events, for anyone interested:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/timeline-alleged-jussie-smollett-attack/story?id=61124090

The original incident was reported by Smollett on Jan 29, 2019, and that's the same day that Biden, for example, made his Tweet. Trump himself appears to have Tweeted something in Smollett's defense two days later. According to this timeline, it took mainstream attention until the 1st or 2nd week of Feb 2019 to begin to smell a rat, so this thread's initial suspicion was indeed quite early in the game in contrast to when the alleged assault actually happened. Whether there was "zero" reason to believe it was a hoax I have no idea. I actually learned of the event from this thread.

LetterRip

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #265 on: December 03, 2021, 10:39:41 PM »
Just to be clear - I mean 'zero reason' for a person of the typical information level, I agree that the full details certainly might make a reasonable person suspicious and I'm glad the police followed through and am disgusted with the initial solicitous treatment he received by the prosecution once the police investigated.

TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #266 on: December 03, 2021, 11:55:22 PM »
One must think about the message it sends when there isn't an expression of immediate support. It's generally a safe bet that in the vast majority of accusations, something really did happen.

To take a wait and see approach on the off chance that it might be a false accusation, is to cast suspicion on any accuser and discourage reporting of such incidents. As well as indicating that we care more about the potential for scripted attacks than we do about the number of attacks that are happening to people every day

What is the downside of providing support for a victim and for all the victims like the one reporting, in this case Smollett. That there is a vanishing chance that you might have to withdraw that support isn't a reason to not give it.

Fenring

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #267 on: December 04, 2021, 01:05:37 AM »
One must think about the message it sends when there isn't an expression of immediate support. It's generally a safe bet that in the vast majority of accusations, something really did happen.

I don't exactly disagree, although on the other hand, why does the President need to weigh in on what I might call domestic crimes, even highly publicized ones? Did Clinton make some kind of public statement in support or condemnation of O.J. Simpson? And why should he have?

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To take a wait and see approach on the off chance that it might be a false accusation, is to cast suspicion on any accuser and discourage reporting of such incidents.

Is it? It sounds like you're saying that the only purpose to reporting such incidents is to receive social media support, as if the public media response is the main intention in filing a crime report. In this case, ironically, it was, but generally the purpose would be to see justice done in the courts, wouldn't you say?

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What is the downside of providing support for a victim and for all the victims like the one reporting, in this case Smollett. That there is a vanishing chance that you might have to withdraw that support isn't a reason to not give it.

It doesn't seem like cherry's point is precisely that these people should be condemned because they happened to be wrong, but rather that they fell for exactly what the ruse was meant to produce: support from famous people in order to draw attention to a cause. So from that standpoint cherry is literally correct, they did exactly what Smollett wanted them to, and for the reason he predicted they would: because people want to jump on public bandwagons on certain select causes. And that desire to be seen as supporting those causes is the weakness that was exploited here; Smollett knew that much. To me it's not so much a question of whether there happened to be enough evidence that it was a hoax, and more that this very public virtue signalling causes these dogpiles for or against to happen. I don't know whether Biden should have known better than to believe Smollett, but I do think it would have been more decent to refrain from trying to cash in on it with a Tweet. I think more or less the same about these shows of public support as I do about the Twitter mobs trying to destroy people for having the wrong opinion. In both cases social media proves to be a strong avenue for narcissism.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #268 on: December 04, 2021, 03:01:54 PM »
There is all of that too, but I'm also thinking big picture, geopolitically. Looking that gullible can cost countries like it did Afghanistan. I think it's clear they actually are that gullible, Biden and Harris, but even if they aren't the perception that they are is a weakness that our adversaries will seek to exploit. It's one weakness on top of another, not being willing to make sacrifices to defend freedom as Biden demonstrated in Afghanistan which is emboldening Russia against Ukraine and China against Taiwan along with the weakness of being easily duped. There's the old saw about how the Russians are playing chess and the Chinese are playing Go and usually we'd hear how our leaders are playing checkers but that's actually overstating their gamesmanship level because they are really just playing Tic-tac-toe. And worse yet, where they should be at least able to draw, instead they are losing.

The other side has Alai and Han Tzu and Vlad but instead of Ender or Bean, Graff or Rackham, we get The Woke Army.

LetterRip

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #269 on: December 04, 2021, 03:15:08 PM »
There is all of that too, but I'm also thinking big picture, geopolitically. Looking that gullible can cost countries like it did Afghanistan.

They in no way 'looked gullible'.  That is something purely in your imagination.  While you can question whether they should comment on domestic issues, that is seperate from the reasonableness of their comments based on what they could have reasonably been expected to know at the time.

Trump also expressed a similar comment at a later date, so he is either 'more gullible' or by any measure they are 'less gullible'.  I don't think any of them can be perceived as being 'gullible' though based on that particular issue.


cherrypoptart

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #270 on: December 04, 2021, 04:09:23 PM »
You just look at the first comments on this thread and it's pretty obvious there were red flags everywhere that this was a hoax and anyone with even the weakest critical eye could see it. Not one part of it made any sense at all.

Biden got taken in by this hoax just like he got sandbagged by the Taliban. Not a big deal with the hoax hate crime but losing a country was. Biden has a history of being wrong about things, both big and small and this was just another example in a long progression that continues to this day.

TheDeamon

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #271 on: December 04, 2021, 04:20:57 PM »
Going back and re-reading the thread is interesting, but we also didn't start the discussion here until a few days later, after the additional information started coming to light.

I was inclined to believe the accusation when the report was first made, although, as mentioned in the first page of this topic, I was mindful of the false-flags that had been happening for the past few years so there was some room for doubt.

But the more details that came to light, the more incredulous an objective person had to becomes about it.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #272 on: December 06, 2021, 05:47:10 PM »
https://news.yahoo.com/jussie-smollett-said-witness-stand-200111258.html

If I'm understanding this correctly, Smollett is standing by his story that two racist redneck Trump supporters in a pickup truck recognized him from his show on a dark and snowy night, called him out personally while also mentioning their support for Trump while beating him up, putting a noose around his neck which he kept on for over an hour, and dousing him with bleach.

The Nigerian brothers, in both senses of the word, actually had nothing to do with the attack, never touched Smollett except romantically for one of them at a bathhouse, and are making up this story about a hate crime hoax conspiracy because Smollett refused to pay them a million dollars to not make up the story they are making up.

You can't make this stuff up. Oh wait...

LetterRip

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #273 on: December 06, 2021, 08:39:16 PM »
https://news.yahoo.com/jussie-smollett-said-witness-stand-200111258.html

If I'm understanding this correctly, Smollett is standing by his story that two racist redneck Trump supporters in a pickup truck recognized him from his show on a dark and snowy night, called him out personally while also mentioning their support for Trump while beating him up, putting a noose around his neck which he kept on for over an hour, and dousing him with bleach.

Hmm the link didn't work. I think you are misunderstanding?

I think he is claiming that they attacked him because one of them was a jilted lover and were pretending to be MAGA supporters so he wouldn't suspect them.

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and are making up this story about a hate crime hoax conspiracy because Smollett refused to pay them a million dollars to not make up the story they are making up.

I think the defenses claim is that once they learned that the police were investigating and thought that Jussie had masterminded the attack, this created an opportunity for them to extort him by threatening to lie on the stand unless he paid them a million dollars.

Note I'm not saying it is a very plausible theory, but it might be enough for 'reasonable doubt' in the mind of some jury members.

cherrypoptart

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #274 on: December 06, 2021, 10:51:39 PM »
So his claim is that these are the guys who attacked him but even though he admits to being the lover of one of them he couldn't recognize them at all? I'd like to hear on the stand their best imitation of the redneck Trump supporting accents that Smollett suggests they must have been using to help conceal their identities. This wasn't actually a fake hate crime though. It was a real hate crime perpetrated against Trump, his supporters, and white people in general.

TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #275 on: December 08, 2021, 10:20:03 AM »
So his claim is that these are the guys who attacked him but even though he admits to being the lover of one of them he couldn't recognize them at all? I'd like to hear on the stand their best imitation of the redneck Trump supporting accents that Smollett suggests they must have been using to help conceal their identities. This wasn't actually a fake hate crime though. It was a real hate crime perpetrated against Trump, his supporters, and white people in general.

I don't think you understand what hate crime is, or what a protected group is. Being disparaged because of the politicians and politics you choose to support us not even close to either of those things.

Fenring

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #276 on: December 08, 2021, 10:43:25 AM »
I don't think you understand what hate crime is, or what a protected group is. Being disparaged because of the politicians and politics you choose to support us not even close to either of those things.

I just have to suspect that cherry may not be using the term "hate crime" in the legal sense of protected groups. He seems to mean "crime that is based in hate", which is ironically inapplicable according to the legal standard if you're in a majority group...at least in America. I imagine in Israel an attack on someone for being Jewish would be considered a hate crime (if they even have such a term?).

TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #277 on: December 08, 2021, 10:55:05 AM »
Oh, I wasn't trying to lawyer him, although one does invite that using the word "crime". But members of a majority group whining about being hated is simply laughable - even if it is racial which MAGA isn't - or so they keep telling us. Do MAGA people not do the same thing with "Demonrats" or "Commies" or "Socialists" or planned parenthood or BLM or immigrants or sesame street ..... well the list of groups they hate is nearly infinite.

To be more concerned about the tiny percentage of false reports than the vast numbers of real incidents shows a really warped set of priorities.

Fenring

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #278 on: December 08, 2021, 11:06:35 AM »
To be fair, and not particularly in cherry's defense, I don't think numerical majority necessarily should be the end-all of whether a hate-based action is "laughable". It is not at all uncommon in history for a small minority to have vastly more power in a situation than the majority do. So even if you're going based on a punching up/punching down metric (which obviously right-wing people aren't anyhow) one might well be punching up when going after the minority if they have the power. That is, in fact, exactly what happened in Quebec, Canada in the early-mid 1900's, when the French majority were under the thumb of the English minority (at least, that is the claim). in other words, before dismissing someone's concern about hate, just citing numerical majority is not only a short circuit type of logic, but is inapplicable even within the context of the intersectionalist theory without doing a much more serious analysis of the various lines of power in play.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 11:09:07 AM by Fenring »

TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #279 on: December 08, 2021, 01:43:36 PM »
Come back and talk to me about hate crimes against majorities when heterosexuals have to worry about being beaten up for their preference, when white people get dragged behind pickup trucks for the amusement of black people, when white people get denied access to businesses or residences in a way that damages their ability to succeed in life. If you're a man, and you can't join up to a Curves gym, you are not facing unjust oppression. It just simply isn't equivalent because of the impact.

I'm sure we might be able to drum up specific examples of some of these, but it simply isn't anything the average white heterosexual male has to be concerned about. You don't walk to your car wondering if you're going to get attacked, or walk to subway for a sandwich wondering if you're going to make it without being harassed in some way.

Frankly, the White House should be posting a tweet every single day about racially motivated crimes and not have to be compelled because of someone's celebrity or news attention.

It is also a fallacy that we don't prosecute hate crimes committed against majority group members.

Victims broken down by FBI, 2019

15.7% victims of anti-white bias
9% victims of anti-Christian bias, plus 1% anti-mormon (depending on how you choose to classify)
1.3% anti-heterosexual
18 of 81 gender bias crimes were anti-male

Percentages are based on subcategory, not total.

Fenring

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #280 on: December 08, 2021, 02:02:50 PM »
Come back and talk to me about hate crimes against majorities when heterosexuals have to worry about being beaten up for their preference, when white people get dragged behind pickup trucks for the amusement of black people, when white people get denied access to businesses or residences in a way that damages their ability to succeed in life.

A lot of people are really obsessed with the black/white binary. There are lots of colors in the rainbow, and lots of kinds of discrimination; and more broadly, lots of types of power structures that advantage some people while disadvantaging others. I know you're only talking about literal crimes in this context, but if you want to talk about minority/majority in a meaningful way then you have to talk about who has power and who doesn't. And white, MAGA-hat wearing people absolutely are the 'minority' (in the sense of being castigated and powerless) in certain milieus. I wouldn't like the chances of such a person being hired in silicon valley, or Hollywood at this point, just to give two examples. In those milieus, the right-winger of a certain bent must almost hide their predilections in order to be accepted. I've heard anecdotal stories in a similar vain in the university system, where some right-wing people I know (Trump haters, as it happens) have to all but hide the fact that they're Republicans in their work life in order to avoid sending the 'wrong' message to the administrators there. So the issue is always more complex than just saying the white majority obviously has nothing to worry about. If you have to keep your identity secret to avoid trouble then yes, there is something to worry about, whether it's about being trans or whether it's about being a Trump supporter.

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It is also a fallacy that we don't prosecute hate crimes committed against majority group members.

Hey, you were the one who told cherry he must not know what a protected group is when he said hate crimes were conducted "against Trump, his supporters, and white people in general."

LetterRip

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #281 on: December 08, 2021, 02:40:49 PM »
So his claim is that these are the guys who attacked him but even though he admits to being the lover of one of them he couldn't recognize them at all? I'd like to hear on the stand their best imitation of the redneck Trump supporting accents that Smollett suggests they must have been using to help conceal their identities.

There were two short phrases it is trivially easy to have ones voice unrecognizable for such a brief amount of talking or yelling. He never claimed an accent or anything else.  He claims they were dressed in all black with masks pulled over their head and face.  His second police report says he assumed they might be white based on the words.  He also told police that the eye holes appeared to be pale skin.

There wasn't anything in any of the police reports or after interview summaries that stated he said his attackers were white.

TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #282 on: December 08, 2021, 03:02:05 PM »
White people is a protected group. Being a member of a political party is not. Yes, if you wear a MAGA hat to an interview with me, you're probably going to have an uphill battle because it demonstrates poor judgement, but not necessarily more so than if you wore a Bernie button. If you ask for time off to attend a Unite the Right rally, I will become biased against you to some extent because of company inclusivity values. If you march around the company hallways talking about how women are less suited to be programmers, I'm going to ask you to resign. Not because I'm biased against men, or conservatives, but because your communication and teamwork skills are nonexistent.

TheDeamon

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #283 on: December 08, 2021, 04:01:12 PM »
If you march around the company hallways talking about how women are less suited to be programmers, I'm going to ask you to resign.

Ah the google manifesto. Too bad that isn't what he actually claimed. His assertion was that women were less likely to tolerate the work conditions that male coders tended to tolerate.

Because frankly, those work conditions are generally not great.

TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #284 on: December 08, 2021, 04:20:06 PM »
I never mentioned that dude. My hypothetical employee is saying something different than him, if that makes you feel better.

TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #285 on: December 09, 2021, 06:50:29 PM »
And thus ends the jury deliberations. Guilty. On to sentencing.

Fenring

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #286 on: December 09, 2021, 11:39:18 PM »
Just a tidbit from BLM you might find 'interesting':

https://blacklivesmatter.com/statement-regarding-the-ongoing-trial-of-jussie-smollett/

Quote
It’s not about a trial or a verdict decided in a white supremacist charade, it’s about how we treat our community when corrupt systems are working to devalue their lives.
[...]
In our commitment to abolition, we can never believe police, especially the Chicago Police Department (CPD) over Jussie Smollett, a Black man who has been courageously present, visible, and vocal in the struggle for Black freedom.
[...]
Black Lives Matter will continue to work towards the abolition of police and every unjust system.

In case there was any doubt about what the phrase "defund the police" is intended to mean. I find it ironic that BLM in this instance is actually doing precisely what Smollet did - trying to inflame race relations on a spurious narrative.


TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #287 on: December 09, 2021, 11:56:02 PM »
Their statement isn't inflaming, it's a statement of fact. Those police have lied over and over. The fact that they turned out right this time is not an exoneration of the institution. That's the point.

LetterRip

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #288 on: December 09, 2021, 11:58:41 PM »
Quote
In case there was any doubt about what the phrase "defund the police" is intended to mean. I find it ironic that BLM in this instance is actually doing precisely what Smollet did - trying to inflame race relations on a spurious narrative.

See Wikipedia,

Quote
Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a decentralized political and social movement protesting against incidents of police brutality and all racially motivated violence against black people.[1][2][3][4][5] While there are specific organizations such as the Black Lives Matter Global Network that label themselves simply as "Black Lives Matter", the overall movement is a decentralized network of people and organizations with no formal hierarchy.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lives_Matter

So the BLMGN who owns that website, isn't representative of the movement, it is one group who is using the name of the movement.

So you really shouldn't ready anything into what is on that site as to being representative of the BLM movement.


Fenring

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #289 on: December 10, 2021, 01:07:19 AM »
So the BLMGN who owns that website, isn't representative of the movement, it is one group who is using the name of the movement.

So you really shouldn't ready anything into what is on that site as to being representative of the BLM movement.

I mean, I know that, and on one level you are right (trivially so), and on another level I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Granting that this is a side tangent I won't dwell on it and just posted as food for thought. But the No True Scotsman/shifting goalpost should certainly be clear to you as present in movements like these. As long as there is no central authority (which is usually the case in human affairs, especially grassroots ones) then any claim at all can be said to "not be representative" of "the movement". So basically no claim made by anyone can be held to account, since it's not 'the official' belief, since there is no official belief. So we can't say anything about anything under this principle. I assume you would find this as odious as I do if it was being made by groups you found troublesome, and their defenders making motte/bailey 'that's not what people really believe' arguments. I'm not precisely saying you're an apologist for BLM - although in this instance you literally are - but rather than one can go too far being fair to them rather than finally admitting that some things really mean what they sound like.

This is the problem with protest and political movements: you want a coalition, and to claim solidarity in numbers, but when critiques are leveled, everyone goes to ground and claims it was someone else's belief, not theirs. So to have your coalition you knowingly thumbs-up any statement made at all ostensibly on 'your side'. So for an example, in the trans movement (just to throw fuel into the fire) you will rarely see pro-trans activists taking each other to task for statements they disagree with. Rather, you'll see a lot of support for those on support of the same side, even if their beliefs are in fact different or even contradictory (which happens quite often). This works for them so long as this coalition creates a large public presence, but as I mentioned results in no one being accountable when problematic claims are made.

So I know that not literally every left-wing person wanted to literally abolish the police. But I was referring to this claim made that, 'no, we don't actually mean that, that's just a smear tactic.' Well I'm saying it's not a smear tactic, and that it was a real proposition most likely fueling the riots. I don't think the people occupying city blocks were protesting the precise budget levels of the police, preferring they be somewhat lower. And by the way, contrary to public opinion, most people are not particularly subtle, and are not either trained or at least required to come up with more complicated thoughts than "down with X!" Maybe they can, but why should they bother?

I'll just throw in as a bonus that I'm not even address what I think about the idea of abolishing the police such as they are now! My opinion on this might surprise you. But mostly I'm addressing the dismissal that this is what the maxim means, at least in many contexts.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 01:09:35 AM by Fenring »

LetterRip

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #290 on: December 10, 2021, 03:22:56 AM »
But the No True Scotsman/shifting goalpost should certainly be clear to you as present in movements like these.

No one is denying that there are some people who think certain things.  They just make up such an absurdly small part of the movement that it is bizarre to focus on them - they have no power or influence and never will have any power and influence.

You can survey what people who support BLM actually believe and what goals they support, and that belief and goal is small enough that it is lost in statistical noise.

Fenring

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #291 on: December 10, 2021, 10:00:39 AM »
If the literal spokespeople for 'the movement' are part of this "statistical noise" then I'm not sure who does matter.

TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #292 on: December 10, 2021, 11:22:37 AM »
There is an argument to be made that in some communities the police do more harm than good. Ignore that if you like.

TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #293 on: December 10, 2021, 11:57:28 AM »
To explore, are there more unethical police, or more unethical people who identify with BLM?

Fenring

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #294 on: December 10, 2021, 12:00:12 PM »
There is an argument to be made that in some communities the police do more harm than good. Ignore that if you like.

I agree completely! But that's not my point.

Fenring

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #295 on: December 10, 2021, 12:03:18 PM »
To explore, are there more unethical police, or more unethical people who identify with BLM?

Ok, so I'll use an apples to oranges comparison to show the sort of thing I mean, by analogy. Let's say that the Czars in Russia at the 'turn of the century' were typical monarchical oppressors, the system needed revamping, etc. Along comes a zealous movement to upend the current power structure. My question isn't "who is worse" or "yeah but isn't there a problem needing solving", my question is going to be "who are these people who claim to represent everyone but who may be just another set of closet aristocrats (to quote Frank Herbert)? When the new clique demands people bow to them, I want to know who they are and what they believe, because if they are fundamentally a destructive sect then I want nothing to do with them even if I agree completely with the things they're objecting to. The fact that we can commonly define a problem has nothing to do with whether a proper solution is being put forward.

TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #296 on: December 10, 2021, 01:17:13 PM »
Interesting. Who do you think is claiming to represent everyone? Even our elected representatives can't claim that, which would include 7 billion people. Nobody seems to whinge about the NRA representing gun owners, or planned parenthood representing women. The public and the media couldn't deal with the occupy movement because they didn't follow robert's rules, appoint spokespeople, or publish a manifesto.

The same people who applaud the Sons of Liberty for violent rebellion suddenly have a change of heart now, but yes, it has come to the point where destruction is the only thing our society will pay attention to, and the shame doesn't belong to the people setting fire to dumpsters, the shame belongs to us that we didn't fix it before it got there.

We shouldn't be debating that things need fixing, but the cop apologists want to rinse their objects of worship in a shower of adulation, defending the shooting of handicapped people and tresspassers.

Why are people so concerned about the destructive elements in the revolutionary movement, but not concerned about militarized police who uniformly support destructive force?

LetterRip

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #297 on: December 10, 2021, 02:04:08 PM »
If the literal spokespeople for 'the movement' are part of this "statistical noise" then I'm not sure who does matter.

They are 'self appointed', they aren't actual spokespeople for the movement.

TheDrake

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #298 on: December 10, 2021, 04:48:40 PM »
I assume we can consider the MAGA patriot party the official spokespeople for that movement also?

I mean, its right there in their name.

TheDeamon

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Re: Jussie Smollet got a sandwich
« Reply #299 on: December 10, 2021, 05:05:41 PM »
And thus ends the jury deliberations. Guilty. On to sentencing.

So not only did he get a sandwich. He got a conviction too.