Author Topic: What are Democrats running on in 2020?  (Read 9049 times)

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« on: March 10, 2019, 09:42:32 AM »
The economy is at 3.8% unemployment, it’s the lowest black and hispanic unemployment in history and more women are working than ever before while real wages are climbing after 8 years of stagnation. So unless a few of you have dreams come true and the American economy crashes, Democrats can’t run on the economy.

Security? ISIS is essentially destroyed, who’s left? Democrats want open borders and the dissolution of ICE so we can get as many MS-13 gang members, human traffickers, and opiods into America as possible. That’s a losing platform unless you’re completely unhinged (and a surprising number of Democrats appear to be just that).

Socialism. Really gonna give that a shot as Venezuela descends into darkness (literally) and becomes a humanitarian catastrophe? AOC, the Breakfast Club Evita, says yes. Good luck with that.

In 2019, Democrats have staked themselves out as the party of antisemitism, infanticide, racists, rapists, and hoax hate crimes. I just don’t see those positions as being a winning strategy but with a dedicated propaganda machine in CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, NYT, and MSNBC, etc to cover it up and otherwise sanitize that hot mess I guess it’s possible all that gets memory holed ... or just blamed on the jews.

Russia. I think all the blanks in that gun have been shot. Unless Mueller pulls a cat out of his ass, that’ll be a dead issue by campaign time.

My guess is they run, hard, on Supreme Court nominations. Ginsburg is gonna be lucky to make it to 2020 and I doubt she’ll make it to 2024. Breyer seems to be healthy but at 80  he’s well past retirement age and very likely to retire before 2024. Thomas ain’t no spring chicken at 70 either. So we’re looking at 1, and potentially 3, new justices before 2024. That will galvanize even liberals that aren’t on board with a blacfaced, socialist dream and stacks of infants left on tables. Of course, that can also galvanize the right so it’s a bit of a wash as strategy goes.

What else can they run on?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 09:52:16 AM by Crunch »

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2019, 10:45:30 AM »
That DOES all sound pretty terrible Crunch.

Amusingly, "Ya, all that's true, but... we're not Trump!", could still win the day.   ::)

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2019, 01:38:10 PM »
That DOES all sound pretty terrible Crunch.

Amusingly, "Ya, all that's true, but... we're not Trump!", could still win the day.   ::)

Doubtful, I'm fully expecting the left-wing version of "the Donald Trump Effect" to play out across the media, and more particularly, the 2012 edition of what Trump did.

And the problem with an extreme left-wing version of it is that it will do poorly with independents and moderates. It might do well enough with many of the more urbanized areas that they manage to repeat the feat of both candidates failing to win a clear majority (because people will likely go "third party" in even larger numbers because Donald Trump is Donald Trump), and the Democratic Candidate gets more votes in total(and thus claiming the plurality), but fails to win the EC.

But in the meantime, the MSM is so far in the leftist tank that they're oblivious to the fact that they're even in it. They're also highly reliant on Social Media in particular to try to determine "where the energy is" which means they're highly responsive to manipulation by activists and other entities(such as Russia).

And for the Democratic Party, their "activist base" trends very heavily towards the extreme left. It's already showing with their current 2020 presidential election pool, they're all slanting heavily in the direction towards Bernie Sanders, if not trying to go even further.

The sad part for them is in 2016 Bernie had a real chance of getting elected until Hillary's crew torpedoed him. In 2020, I think he has zero chance, because of Anti-Trump and the related TDS. (Or more specifically: AOC; Bernie does a decent enough job as pulling a Vladimir Lenin. The problem is AOC appears to want to be Stalin, and with THAT waiting in the wings, many people will give Bernie a pass who might have considered him otherwise)

I expect the attempts on the part of the various Dems to "woo the (extreme) left" is going to ultimately put them in the same position that Mitt Romney found himself in during 2012. They're going to say, and do things, to get those people to support them in the Presidential Primaries, and those things are going to hurt them very badly in the General Election.

The Press, is going to be forcing a lot of those harmful comments out them, albeit unwittingly this time. I have no doubt they were trying to entrap the Republicans when they were pulling those stunts in 2012 and 2016 by making the Republican Primaries about Donald Trump to the maximum extent possible.

In 2020 it's going to be "an innocent mistake" on their part because they genuinely thought that the American Public wanted to hear Democratic Candidates saying those (extreme left-wing) things. Even the Democratic candidates that are trying for a more moderate tone are going to "get had" by that process, much like Romney did in 2012.

The 2020 Presidential Race on the Democratic side is likely to be an abortion before the first Primary vote is even cast. The only thing that could possibly save them is if they find Trump neck deep in some really perfidious stuff. Ankle deep or even Knee deep on Trump's part isn't going to be enough to save them(the Democrats) in 2020.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 01:44:02 PM by TheDeamon »

DonaldD

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2019, 04:26:42 PM »
Quote
Bernie does a decent enough job as pulling a Vladimir Lenin. The problem is AOC appears to want to be Stalin
I'm trying to figure out whether this is trolling, or whether you are so far gone as to honestly believe what you are writing.

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2019, 05:49:01 PM »
Quote
Bernie does a decent enough job as pulling a Vladimir Lenin. The problem is AOC appears to want to be Stalin
I'm trying to figure out whether this is trolling, or whether you are so far gone as to honestly believe what you are writing.

I don't mean it literally, I'm speaking figuratively.

I think Bernie is "a true believer" or close enough to it. From my understanding of Lenin, they're probably kindred spirits in a number of ways.

AOC seems to be presenting the image that she's cut from much the same cloth as Stalin on the other hand.

If you equate Stalin and Lenin as one and the same, you probably don't know your history as well as you think you do.

DonaldD

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2019, 07:07:28 PM »
If you somehow interpreted my response as equating Stalin and Lenin, then you need to address the filters you apply while reading text.

I get that it's convenient (and lazy) to equate political foes with soviet or third world socialist dictatorships (and let's face it, equating someone to Stalin is really no more useful than comparing them to Hitler) but there is little to nothing in common between AOC's positions and Stalin or Stalinism.  Is AOC advocating rapid industrialization?  Nationalization of agriculture? Communist revolutions? State violence against specific economic classes?  The murder of 20 million people?

How specifically is she more like Stalin than Lenin?  And how, specifically, is what she is advocating more like Stalinism than, say, Canadian or Norwegian socialism?  Or is it simply not scary enough to say "AOC is advocating that we become more Canadian?"

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2019, 12:07:13 AM »
AOC is either an idiot, or pushing a deeper agenda that has little to no bearing with respect to what she claims to be all about.

If its the former, then the comparison to Stalin is inappropriate and wrong, if only because Stalin wasn't an idiot.

If it's the latter, then it's probably not far from the mark, and only time will tell.

But I'm more inclined to think AOC is catering to "the useful idiots" that Stalin loved so much.

While Bernie is out to do pretty much exactly what he's talking about and not much more.

Heck, I may think Bernie's plans have major flaws and other significant issues, but I wouldn't have been overly concerned about him as President in 2016.

However, in light of the unhinged DNC that was created in the aftermath of Trump's win, and the emergence of people like AOC running around, people who make Bernie seem sedate by comparison. I'm now VERY concerned about what may be attempted under a President Bernie after 2020, even if I don't think he would be the initiator for much of what would be tried.

The activist wing of the Democratic Party has sufficiently poisoned the well on that front that while even I(and a number of others I know) was open to the idea of voting Bernie in 2016. It won't be happening in 2020. The best they can hope for is that I vote third party like I did in 2016, and that a lot of people who did vote Trump in 2016 do what I did last time, as it at least gives them a chance to flip some states. Assuming they don't scare off or alienate a number of their own more moderate voters in the process.

However, I'm betting they're sufficiently out of touch with "Middle/Centrist America" at this point that they're going to accomplish exactly that. Even if a more centrist candidate wins the Democratic Primaries, and I don't really see that happening. There is enough other things weighing them down elsewhere in their "big tent" that even trying to beat Donald Trump, as unpopular as he is, may be more than they're able to do.

The activists are going to prevent them from being able to connect with the voters they need to reach in order to defeat Trump.

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2019, 12:34:54 AM »
It does seem to me that the DNC has ample chances to torpedo themselves if they make a wrong step. Any wrong move and Trump will walk all over that. On the other hand there are many right moves they can also make that would give the American public a really good reason to get rid of Trump the good old way. So much of the populace hates him that all you need to do is not piss them off and there's a chance. Despite Crunch's arguments, I don't think elections are about issues any more like they used to be. Everyone pretends that they are but really they're about personas, PR, spin, media exposure, "mistakes" that cost votes, and often getting voters out of the house. It may seem that Trump won on "build the wall" and "talk with Russia", but realistically the primary debates had little to do with the issues and more to do with grandstanding and seeing to it the guy next to you looked more foolish than he could make you look. The generals were a teeny bit more about issues but still not much, as Hillary's strategy was to defeat Trump in presence, while Trump's was to defeat her using her own bad image. They almost could have read the phone book and played the same notes.

2020 will probably be about, on Trump's side, can he make them look foolish or ridiculous, and on the DNC's side, can they offer something reasonable that doesn't reek of corruption and insider promotion. If the DNC can do that, and put up someone Trump will have a hard time making look stupid, there will be a real contest. If the DNC degenerates again into trying to get "their person" into power and sabotaging the other candidates, Trump will win. If they instead back real people that don't look like neoliberal puppets, and don't fall on their faces trying to beat Trump at his own game, they can do fine. I really hope they do, to be honest. Not even because I want Trump to lose, but rather because I want to see those muppets learn from their mistakes and take the needs of the people seriously. If one party can do that then perhaps both can eventually. I was heartened when watching through The West Wing some years back to see a Rep vs Dem election portrayed where I legitimately felt both candidates were honest, respectable, and would be good leaders. Imagine when that day comes for real! Granted, that series was a constant exercise in wish fulfillment and delusion, that it was closer to being Care Bears than the way things really are; but it would be nice to see that one day parties could actually buy into the idea of leading is a moral responsibility.

DonaldD

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2019, 07:10:47 AM »
Quote
AOC is either an idiot, or pushing a deeper agenda that has little to no bearing with respect to what she claims to be all about.
OK, so then AOC is not at all like Stalin, but may be simply using a technique common to all politicians ever elected (relying on "useful idiots").

Heck, Donald Trump is far more reliant on "useful idiots" than is AOC ("I could shoot someone on 5th avenue and not lose votes")

Now, if you mean the same "useful idiots" to which Russia was allegedly referring, then again, you are simply wrong - first off, it was Lenin to whom the reference was first apocryphally attributed, not Stalin, so your comparison of AOC to Stalin as opposed to Lenin already fails.  Secondly, there is little evidence that either Stalin or Lenin actually used the term, whereas, there is ample reference to other politicians using it, most especially American anti-communist propagandists using it to smear their own political opponents (do you notice a pattern?)

So basically, your argument comes down to AOC must be more like Stalin because you believe that the only people who could reasonably support her positions are stupid; displaying that, instead of AOC sharing anything with Stalin, you are sharing far more with Joe McCarthy.

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2019, 08:00:18 AM »
That DOES all sound pretty terrible Crunch.

Amusingly, "Ya, all that's true, but... we're not Trump!", could still win the day.   ::)

You know, I totally forgot  “Orange Man Bad”.  Based on what I’ve seen in just this forum, mindlessly saying that over and over again that might be a viable strategy.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 08:03:33 AM by Crunch »

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2019, 08:20:56 AM »
Quote
So much of the populace hates him that all you need to do is not piss them off and there's a chance.

This is the impact of the MSM propaganda, you think enough hate Trump to make hm vulnerable because that’s what they tell you - orange man bad (OMB). He has an approval rating over 40%, given the unprecedented OMB effort across the US culture, it’s no wonder that low information voters believe many hate Trump. In fact, it’s pretty amazing he can keep an above 40% approval. If you think a lot of people simply hate him, you’re in a echo chamber similar to the one in 2016 when Hillary was a sure thing. Trump has to capture only 8-10% of voters to win. Very doable.

So what we have, as usual, three groups. 1, the hard left and never Trumpers. These guys don’t care about anything other Than getting Trump. Literally, that’s it. 2, the Trump supporters who don’t care about anything the media says, they’re voting Trump. But neither of those groups have the clout to achieve the goal. Group 3 is huge and filled with people who won’t even think about this until around the last few debates - a time when Trump can talk directly to Americans without the media filterto distort it.  As he reels off success after success during those debates, he could sway that third group significantly and get that 10%.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 08:28:51 AM by Crunch »

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2019, 08:35:53 AM »
Quote
Thanks to newly elected representatives and recently announced 2020 presidential candidates, lurching too far Left is branding Democrats as the political party supporting socialism.

A Harvard CAPS/Harris Poll reported that 64 percent of registered voters believe the Democrat Party supports socialism. More concerning for Democrats, the poll also revealed 65 percent of the respondents backed a “mostly capitalistic” economic system, in contrast to 35 percent supporting a “mostly socialist” economic model.

It gets worse for Democrats. An NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll reported only 18 percent of Americans view socialism positively. The poll also reported only 25 percent of respondents were “enthusiastic/comfortable” with a socialist candidate, in contrast to 72 percent who had “reservations/very uncomfortable” with a socialist running for president.

The socialism label is extremely damaging to Democrats, and President Trump is using his communication skills and platform to drive the message home as part of the 2020 presidential race.


Staking themselves as the socialist party is a loser strategy. I hope they double down on it.

rightleft22

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2019, 10:42:15 AM »
Not sure we fully understand what the word 'socialist' means today or if it matters that we understand.
Your probably right as just using that word stops people from hearing anything else.

The DNC tends to be its own worst enemy. Running on a centrist platform would make more sense but my bet is that they will swing wild. 

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2019, 11:08:19 AM »
I'm unconvinced on how one would run a platform that is both "centrist" and yet rejecting politics as usual.  If a lesson was to be taken from the 2016 election cycle it is that voters are sick of things continuing as they have been. 

Left and Right each have their own grab bags of what that change should look like, but both sides are counting the numbers who demand SOME change in rapidly growing amounts.  Already I would say it's a majority of each "side".  That those grab bags contain drastically different things is the only thing keeping the parties together at present. 

A "centrist" (from either party) can't even capture that majority of their own side.  Even if you could convince the centrist that they should somehow accept a little from column A and a little from column B, the middle is shrinking. 

Many opine about how it's the extreme wings of the parties ripping us apart, but that misses the point.  Our current government gives the appearance of (the reality of it is still up for debate) of not caring about the little guys.  I believe that Trump won not just because he was a message against establishment government but also that Clinton was about as unexciting as one can get when looking to send a similar message from the left. 

If you are a "never Trump-er" or an "orange man bad" parrot, a return to business as usual before this aberration, I think you will find is not going to cut it.

The center may be smaller...  Or maybe the overlap between the two sides has changed in composition.  (Much to the dismay of those benefiting the most from the current situation.)

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2019, 11:23:28 AM »
The DNC tends to be its own worst enemy. Running on a centrist platform would make more sense but my bet is that they will swing wild.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting.  The DNC is not centrist.  Are you suggesting they lie about their goals as a campaign strategy, or that they move to the center?  They'd have to ditch most of the active energy in the party to get to the middle, which would break the party apart.

A "centrist" (from either party) can't even capture that majority of their own side.  Even if you could convince the centrist that they should somehow accept a little from column A and a little from column B, the middle is shrinking.

Arguably Trump's the most centrist President we've had since B. Clinton, and he's got overwhelming party support.  Don't fall for MSM tricks.  On the other hand "Centrist" is a vague label that means different things to every person.

Overall I think the Democratic path is easier but much like the "sure win" against George W. Bush's second term they can still pull off a self own.  Hating Trump is going to give them a lot of passion, but if they nominate people who turn off too many voters it won't be enough.  In other words, if they see this as an "opportunity" to elect the most leftist candidate in history I think we'll be seeing more Trump.

Not sure who they have that can really be successful, don't think it's Biden or Bernie.  They do have a number of younger candidates who don't seem (to me) to have solid moral positions, which means they're able to "triangulate" to centrist.  No matter how nonsensical the switch in position the MSM will cover it.  Bernie and Biden can't move far enough with their higher public familiarity (and honestly, Biden is worse at self owning than Trump). 

yossarian22c

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2019, 12:10:49 PM »
Not sure we fully understand what the word 'socialist' means today or if it matters that we understand.
Your probably right as just using that word stops people from hearing anything else.

The DNC tends to be its own worst enemy. Running on a centrist platform would make more sense but my bet is that they will swing wild.

It depends on who emerges from the primary. Indications look to be that Biden might run as a relative moderate. That end of the field is pretty empty right now (John Hickenlooper is the only one I can think of immediately), as everyone else who has gotten in the race is trying to take the Bernie crowd. So if the more socialistic activists split between Bernie and Warren, the social justice advocates split between Harris and Booker, with a number of other candidates all getting a piece. Sadly it is going to come down to a couple of the early states winnowing the field and the way the winnowing happens is probably going to determine who comes out on top.

The way the field is shaping up if someone can get a consistent 20-30% in the early states they could gain the poll boost that comes from winning/leading. I'm hoping for a more moderate presidential candidate and let the farther left side of the party wield their influence in congress. It's better for the country when the president can be seen to represent a broader cross section of the political spectrum.

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2019, 12:29:03 PM »
Biden, wow. Ok. But can his campaign slogan really be “I’m not Trump”?

That plays to a narrow base but he has to get up and say something besides that. Right? Are we at that point that the only thing to offer is “I’m not Trump”?  This is where I start having a challenge telling the difference between what they’re actually doing and parody because of this is the strategy then it a parody at the same time.

Unless the economy dumps in the next 18 months, what can they run on? I do not believe orange man bad is sufficient to get most Americans when the economy is literally the best they’ve ever seen it in their entire lives. If “it’s the economy, stupid” the. Democrats are already behind the ball on this. Maybe dreams do come true and Democrats get the economic collapse they need to win, maybe they don’t. It’s not something they can really plan on so there mus benither ussues they can use.

What are they?

Getting the Jews? Really? Why are they even allowing that to be entertained?

Post delivery abortion cannot possibly be a winner.

Maybe going all in all socialism is the differentiation they’re looking for?

Orange man bad, comrade! I just don’t see that swaying the majority of voters.

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2019, 12:56:22 PM »
"I'm not Trump" was a jab at our current POTUS as I am, as you note, in the "Orange Man Bad" camp.  This bit of humor, was not my anticipation of the entirety of the Democratic Party's "strategy".   ::)

However given your latest list of how you view the Democratic party, I don't see how it would be at all productive to even try.  I get that your sense of humor runs heavily towards trolling.  (more heavily than my own at least), but turning yourself into a joke to make one?  I don't get it.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 12:58:51 PM by D.W. »

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2019, 01:14:06 PM »
If you think a lot of people simply hate him, you’re in a echo chamber similar to the one in 2016 when Hillary was a sure thing. Trump has to capture only 8-10% of voters to win. Very doable.

If you don't think that a lot of people hate Trump then you're living in a hermetically sealed tank filled with delusion juice. My observation was that the pre-victory situation didn't have as much hate because the Trump-haters were mostly in denial that he could win. You only saw the vitriol follow when they got a wake-up call. But it was there all along.

Quote
So what we have, as usual, three groups. 1, the hard left and never Trumpers. These guys don’t care about anything other Than getting Trump. Literally, that’s it. 2, the Trump supporters who don’t care about anything the media says, they’re voting Trump. But neither of those groups have the clout to achieve the goal. Group 3 is huge and filled with people who won’t even think about this until around the last few debates - a time when Trump can talk directly to Americans without the media filterto distort it.  As he reels off success after success during those debates, he could sway that third group significantly and get that 10%.

I'm not sure you're making this point, but regarding group (1) I would agree that they need to basically disperse as a faction and get behind something positive rather than run on a negative campaign. If all they've got in common is hating Trump then they won't have the wherewithal to back a good DNC candidate and will end up with someone ridiculous like Biden. That said, I don't really predict that Biden will stand much of a chance.

Wayward Son

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2019, 05:59:46 PM »
I wouldn’t stress out too much about what the Democrats will run on come 2020.  It’s still over 21 months away, so there are all sorts of possible new issues that can come up.  But even now, there are a few obvious ones.

The Economy.  Yes, unemployment is at its lowest level in quite a while.  But many people are underemployed.  And Trump has very little control over it.  Did you see the February jobs report?  The preliminary numbers for job growth are at about 1/10 of what was expected.  His numbers probably will not hold until election day, especially if he doesn’t end his tariffs, which will sooner or later cause inflation, and may not create as many jobs as he imagines.
There is also income inequality.  The tax cut saved me about $1000 for last year, but for some it should have saved them $128,000.  As people watch the rich get richer and they staying barely afloat, they may realize that if things continue to go on this way, they and their children won’t have much of anything while Trump and his buddies have almost everything.  That won’t win him a lot of votes.

And don’t forget the deficit (although Republicans have for the last few years).  As the deficit keeps rising, Democrats will continually remind voters how the tax cut contributed to it.  And while Republicans will say how they have to cut programs now, when they go after Medicare and Social Security (the two biggest programs other than the military), it’s not going to go over well.

International Relationships.  Our allies distrust us, don’t respect us, and are angry with us.  This hurts national security.  It will hurt trade relationships (along with the tariffs) and security relationships.  Trump talked about how other countries laughed at Obama behind his back; now they are laughing at Trump right in his face (as demonstrated in his U.N. speech).  “Make America the World Leader Again, Not the Pariah” is probably going to be a good slogan come election time.

The Environment.  The world is getting hotter.  People are noticing, especially young people, who rank global warming as one of the top issues.  As droughts hammer the West, as floods plague the East and Midwest, as wild fires continue all over the country, as sea levels rise, it will become more and more evident that “climate change is a hoax” is untrue and having a denier as a President is not good for the country.
And let’s not forget who Trump has appointed for the Interior Department and the EPA.  When you put foxes in charge of the hen house, pretty soon you’ll start to notice that chickens are missing… ;)

Domestic Issues.  Trump has talked a lot about fixing our infrastructure and addressing the opioid crisis, but what has he actually accomplished?

Voting.  “Every Vote Counts from Every American” will be a slogan (or something to that effect).  We need to make sure that every legal voter has no problem voting.  Republican efforts to disenfranchise minority voters will be running platform.

Actually, Pelosi is already outlining the Democratic platforms for 2020.  As Electoral Vote.com lists the upcoming house bills:

Quote
HR 1 (which overhauls voting procedures, campaign finances, and ethics rules)…
•   HR 2: Creating jobs by rebuilding America's crumbling infrastructure
•   HR 3: Lowering the cost of prescription drugs
•   HR 4: Updating the Voting Rights Act
•   HR 5: LGBTQ equality
•   HR 6: Providing a path to citizenship for the dreamers
•   HR 7: Requiring women to be paid the same as men when they do the same job as men
•   HR 8: Background checks for gun purchases
•   HR 9: Address climate change, but not as sweeping as Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's (D-NY) Green New Deal

And then there still is Donald Trump.  Trump might think that “Orange Man Bad” would work with his followers (who he talks to as if they were 4th graders :) ), but Democrats will be more sophisticated and precise.

"Actually Drain the Swamp."  The number of Trump appointees and associates indicted so far is amazing.  And that’s before the House actually starts looking closely into Trump and his presidency.   Look forward to a lot more indictments and scandals before Nov. 2020.  Anyone who thinks that Trump is as clean as a whistle will be hard pressed in keeping that opinion.  And don’t forget that Mueller’s report will come out soon.  Does anyone really believe that Trump will come out squeaky clean in it?

"Let’s Put Competence Back in the White House."  All reports are that Trump’s presidential style is that of a spoiled high-schooler, trying to get away with doing the least that he can and only worried about looking good at it.  He doesn’t read reports; he doesn’t believe his advisors; he get most of his facts from TV news; he spends the minimal number of hours doing work; he’d rather spend his weekends playing golf; he makes fun of people he doesn’t like; he always tries to shift the blame to someone else when he fails.  History will call the Trump Presidency the worst in recent history, and it will be one of the contenders for the worst, if not number one.

Trump’s approval rating has never gone above 50 percent since his first days as President, hovering around 40 percent.  His disapproval rating has never gone below 50 percent, hovering around 55 percent.  People do not love this President. 

Remember, Trump only won by about 100,000 well-placed votes out of over 60 million.  He got 3 million fewer votes than Hillary.  Democrats are going to ask, do you really want another four years of tariffs, corruption, weekly scandals, puerile attacks of opponents, straining the Constitution to the breaking point, nepotism, obvious lies, and speeches by a man who talks like he’s in the fourth grade?  Is this really your vision of the President of the greatest nation in the world?

No, Democrats have plenty to run on come 2020.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2019, 09:31:36 PM »
I wouldn’t stress out too much about what the Democrats will run on come 2020.  It’s still over 21 months away, so there are all sorts of possible new issues that can come up.  But even now, there are a few obvious ones.

I think Wayward showed you how the Dems will run their snow job and tell everyone that good is bad and night is day.

I think alot what he said is objectively wrong, but selling the outrage is far easier than explaining the nuance, pretty much why Dems can continually sell failed philosophies like socialism without ever having to pay the piper.  My vote for the slogan is "Make America Great in the World Again."  Simpler and more of a coopt.

Quote
Remember, Trump only won by about 100,000 well-placed votes out of over 60 million.  He got 3 million fewer votes than Hillary.

I always enjoy selective statistics.  Another way to look at it is Trump won the popular vote for 49 states, and Hillary's entire "margin" of victory in the popular vote can from California.  Do the rest of us really want California telling us who should be President?  Everyone knows their nuts out there.  ;)

Quote
Democrats are going to ask, do you really want another four years of tariffs, corruption, weekly scandals, puerile attacks of opponents, straining the Constitution to the breaking point, nepotism, obvious lies, and speeches by a man who talks like he’s in the fourth grade?  Is this really your vision of the President of the greatest nation in the world?

It's funny, because they will ask that and in that exact way and the media will let them get away with it, yet, at the same time:

Democrats are going to ask, do you really want another four years of tariffs (unions love tariffs, this could be a Democratic plan), corruption (e.g., IRS scandal, FBI+DOJ scandals, green energy boondockles), weekly scandals (cause the Clintons are scandal free, lol, of course this is a media driven choice, they could just choose not to cover fake scandals), puerile attacks of opponents (e.g., naked Trump statutes, of course the left is literally beyond themselves with hate attacks now, so there's really no going back, false choice), straining the Constitution to the breaking point (e.g., saying you couldn't do it without Congress and creating a new federal entitlement called DACA afterwards?  This one is one of the falsist of claims), nepotism (frankly, I think Jared and Ivanka have been pretty good, and you wouldn't have had any problems with Chelsea doing as much (nor would I) and no one has problems with First ladies doing substantive things - I mean Hillary was billed as "co-President'), obvious lies (yeah, lol, some and a heck of lot more lies about lies), and speeches by a man who talks like he’s in the fourth grade (why can't we all talk about grown up things like cow farts)?

Is this really your vision of the President of the greatest nation in the world? (Wouldn't you rather have someone that acts exactly like Trump, but wears a Blue hat and that the media will lie to cover up their misdeeds?  Isn't the world better when the left is allowed to violate your rights without any scrutiny)


TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2019, 10:00:04 PM »
I'll settle for the democratic challenger if they can spell and speak in complete sentences.

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2019, 10:10:29 PM »
It depends on who emerges from the primary. Indications look to be that Biden might run as a relative moderate. That end of the field is pretty empty right now (John Hickenlooper is the only one I can think of immediately), as everyone else who has gotten in the race is trying to take the Bernie crowd. So if the more socialistic activists split between Bernie and Warren, the social justice advocates split between Harris and Booker, with a number of other candidates all getting a piece. Sadly it is going to come down to a couple of the early states winnowing the field and the way the winnowing happens is probably going to determine who comes out on top.

The way the field is shaping up if someone can get a consistent 20-30% in the early states they could gain the poll boost that comes from winning/leading. I'm hoping for a more moderate presidential candidate and let the farther left side of the party wield their influence in congress. It's better for the country when the president can be seen to represent a broader cross section of the political spectrum.

Two problems.

1) John Kerry is in relatively recent memory for all too many Democrats. They went with "the electable option"  and lost, which set the stage for Obama overtaking Hillary in 2008. They'll be hunting for "the next Obama" in 2020, and "being electable" in the general isn't going to be a strong enough positive to get a decisive lead.

2) The Media is going to giving certain Democrats a very large megaphone, much like they did for Trump in the Republican Primaries. Whomever those megaphone holders are, or perhaps more specifically, the one(s) who get much of Trump's attention, are going to be the ones who set the tone the Democratic primary.

Between the Media still being clueless about "flyover country" and its wants/needs, their being left-wits themselves by and large, and "the Donald Trump effect" in the form of Donald Trump himself.... He's probably going to be able to "stage manage" the Democratic Primary campaign for all of the Democrats involved. Even better for Trump, he doesn't need to particularly care who comes out on top, just so long as he can find some prime activist verbal punching bags to use as a foil that all the other Democratic Candidates will then need to mimic in some form in order to get free airtime from the press.

Trump is probably going to have an "open feud" going with at least 2 of the Democratic candidates starting within the next 9 months. He just needs to decide which ones he wants to put in the spotlight.

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2019, 10:23:43 PM »
Trump’s approval rating has never gone above 50 percent since his first days as President, hovering around 40 percent.  His disapproval rating has never gone below 50 percent, hovering around 55 percent.  People do not love this President.

I'm going to put on the broken record on this one. You DO realize that people like me are part of the 55% who disapprove of the job President Trump is doing?

Those numbers don't necessarily meant what you think they mean.

Congress isn't doing so hot either, but they've been doing terrible for over a decade now.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2019, 10:27:39 PM »
Remember, Trump only won by about 100,000 well-placed votes out of over 60 million.  He got 3 million fewer votes than Hillary.  Democrats are going to ask, do you really want another four years of tariffs, corruption, weekly scandals, puerile attacks of opponents, straining the Constitution to the breaking point, nepotism, obvious lies, and speeches by a man who talks like he’s in the fourth grade?  Is this really your vision of the President of the greatest nation in the world?

Doesn't matter, I'm almost expecting the EC to put Trump back into office in 2020. Democrats will do a very good job of getting people to vote in states like California, Washington, New York, Illinois, and a number of other states that were going to go Democrat regardless.

How well they do in the other states, the ones needed to carry the EC rather than the popular vote? That's another matter. My money is on their running a platform which Trump will be able to exploit in such a manner as to carve out a Electoral win all the same. Even as the National level polling shows a strong advantage for the Dems.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2019, 09:48:20 AM »
1) John Kerry is in relatively recent memory for all too many Democrats. They went with "the electable option"  and lost, which set the stage for Obama overtaking Hillary in 2008.

TheDeamon can you walk me through how John Kerry was the electable option?  Is that backwards looking analysis?  I think the rest of what you said was pretty on point.

Real time though when they nominated Kerry, they did the exact opposite of going with the electable option.  Kerry was on the far left of the people running with a clear voting record of being far left.  His history of connection to the Vietnam protests meant that despite his own war record many (if not most) vets saw him as little short of a traitor.  He was uncharasmatic and the owned boy toy of a wealthy widow.

Kerry was far far from the "electable option," he was literally a dare by the Democratic party to elect George Bush to a second term.  He was the candidate of a party that thought they couldn't lose, no matter who they nominated, because the other guy's negatives were so high.  If you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it, and that's especially relevant in an election where the message being teed up is "not Trump."

Quote
They'll be hunting for "the next Obama" in 2020, and "being electable" in the general isn't going to be a strong enough positive to get a decisive lead.

Obama's greatest strength was literally being electable.  Real time the media treated him as a blank slate and let him run on pure optimism, notwithstanding his history on issues.  And why?  Because a lot of progressive policies are extremely unpopular.

Here's Rahm Emanuel on the problem:  "Earth to Democrats: Republicans are telling you something when they gleefully schedule votes on proposals like the Green New Deal, Medicare for all, and a 70 percent marginal tax rate. When they're more eager to vote on the Democratic agenda than we are, we should take a step back and ask ourselves whether we're inadvertently letting the political battle play out on their turf rather than our own. If Trump's only hope for winning a second term turns on his ability to paint us as socialists, we shouldn't play to type."

Of course his message isn't that the policies are wrong (even though that ought to be a take away), only that Dems need to deceive better about what they support so voters won't realize what they are electing.  I mean think about the idea that voting on Democratic policies is "on the Republicans turf."

I expect if the strategists win, we'll see Beto or a Beto like person who has no clear position on the issues running on a platitude (Hope and Change), if the extremists win you'll have a full on socialist who'll name position after extreme position and hope for the revolution at the polls.  If they can't decide, you may get a "safe" choice like Biden (his slogan could be "Change and Hope" as in change Trump out and hope for a better tomorrow).

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2019, 10:29:49 AM »
I wouldn’t stress out too much about what the Democrats will run on come 2020.  It’s still over 21 months away, so there are all sorts of possible new issues that can come up.  But even now, there are a few obvious ones.
Good post, let's break it down.

The Economy.  Yes, unemployment is at its lowest level in quite a while.  But many people are underemployed.  And Trump has very little control over it.  Did you see the February jobs report?  The preliminary numbers for job growth are at about 1/10 of what was expected.  His numbers probably will not hold until election day, especially if he doesn’t end his tariffs, which will sooner or later cause inflation, and may not create as many jobs as he imagines.
There is also income inequality.  The tax cut saved me about $1000 for last year, but for some it should have saved them $128,000.  As people watch the rich get richer and they staying barely afloat, they may realize that if things continue to go on this way, they and their children won’t have much of anything while Trump and his buddies have almost everything.  That won’t win him a lot of votes..
One Feb jobs report does not make an economy, that's called cherry picking and you know it's wrong. Unemployment is at record lows among all demographics and real wages are rising, manufacturing jobs are coming back (after Obama said that was impossible). You can throw out canards like underemployment and low tax refunds all you want but that just flies in the face of the reality experienced by the majority of Americans. If Democrats run on "yes, the economy is great but ..." strategy you outlined, they will lose.
And don’t forget the deficit (although Republicans have for the last few years).  As the deficit keeps rising, Democrats will continually remind voters how the tax cut contributed to it.  And while Republicans will say how they have to cut programs now, when they go after Medicare and Social Security (the two biggest programs other than the military), it’s not going to go over well.
The deficit? Come on, you and I and everyone else know you don't care about the deficit. The left does not care about the deficit. Trump can make hay with this tactic. I'd love to see Democrats come out against deficit spending while proposing 10's of trillions in new spending on Medicare for all, free education and loan forgiveness, and the green new deal. This would be campaign commercials that literally write themselves and are nothing but clips of Democrats talking.
International Relationships.  Our allies distrust us, don’t respect us, and are angry with us.  This hurts national security.  It will hurt trade relationships (along with the tariffs) and security relationships.  Trump talked about how other countries laughed at Obama behind his back; now they are laughing at Trump right in his face (as demonstrated in his U.N. speech).  “Make America the World Leader Again, Not the Pariah” is probably going to be a good slogan come election time.
That is nothing more than the CNN, MSNBC, DNC talking point. You can take all the out of context moments you want but you'd have to be a fool to accept this at face value. I travel for my job, a lot. In the last 6 month, I've been in 8 countries, all of them ones you'd think of as allies. The people on the ground like and respect America. From co-workers to the Greek taxi driver that kept repeating how much he loved Trump, I can tell you that this talking point you're pushing is not true. You may say the dozens of people I talked to are anecdotal but that's a hell of a lot more proof than a talking point coming from well known a propaganda outlet. You should go to some of the countries you think are angry with us yourself sometime.
The Environment.  The world is getting hotter.  People are noticing, especially young people, who rank global warming as one of the top issues.  As droughts hammer the West, as floods plague the East and Midwest, as wild fires continue all over the country, as sea levels rise, it will become more and more evident that “climate change is a hoax” is untrue and having a denier as a President is not good for the country.
And let’s not forget who Trump has appointed for the Interior Department and the EPA.  When you put foxes in charge of the hen house, pretty soon you’ll start to notice that chickens are missing… ;).
The problem with this is, Americans are getting hip to the lie. It's been 10 years to the point of no return since the late 1980s. Thirty years of doomsday predictions that fail to materialize has pretty much shot this particular deception down.
Domestic Issues.  Trump has talked a lot about fixing our infrastructure and addressing the opioid crisis, but what has he actually accomplished?.
Fair comment. You know where most of the opioids enter America? The southern border. Would Democrats really want to run on stopping something they're doing everything in their power to allow? Good luck on this one.
Voting.  “Every Vote Counts from Every American” will be a slogan (or something to that effect).  We need to make sure that every legal voter has no problem voting.  Republican efforts to disenfranchise minority voters will be running platform..
Right, Jesus. Ever notice that the only time voters are disenfranchised is when you lose? Deligitimizing elections is a great tactic, there's tons of b-roll out there to help Trump write the campaign commercials on this one. Add in that Democrats want to extend the vote to 16-year-olds, I'd love to see them run on this.

"Actually Drain the Swamp."  The number of Trump appointees and associates indicted so far is amazing.  And that’s before the House actually starts looking closely into Trump and his presidency.   Look forward to a lot more indictments and scandals before Nov. 2020.  Anyone who thinks that Trump is as clean as a whistle will be hard pressed in keeping that opinion.  And don’t forget that Mueller’s report will come out soon.  Does anyone really believe that Trump will come out squeaky clean in it?
Does anyone believe that his base and more than most Americans care? We all know this is a witch hunt, we all know it's a politically motivated hit job, we all know what's going on. This may be the most overplayed tactic of the anti-Trump cabal. Another two years of crying wolf is playing into Trump's rhetoric. I say run with it.
"Let’s Put Competence Back in the White House."  All reports are that Trump’s presidential style is that of a spoiled high-schooler, trying to get away with doing the least that he can and only worried about looking good at it.  He doesn’t read reports; he doesn’t believe his advisors; he get most of his facts from TV news; he spends the minimal number of hours doing work; he’d rather spend his weekends playing golf; he makes fun of people he doesn’t like; he always tries to shift the blame to someone else when he fails.  History will call the Trump Presidency the worst in recent history, and it will be one of the contenders for the worst, if not number one.
Ah, yeah, orange man bad! Orange man bad! Orange man bad! Whatever.
Trump’s approval rating has never gone above 50 percent since his first days as President, hovering around 40 percent.  His disapproval rating has never gone below 50 percent, hovering around 55 percent.  People do not love this President. 
It's really amazing what a 24/7 news cycle of disinformation, fake news, and other lies can accomplish ain't it? I remember when he had no chance of winning in 2016, go ahead and double down on that.
Remember, Trump only won by about 100,000 well-placed votes out of over 60 million.  He got 3 million fewer votes than Hillary.  Democrats are going to ask, do you really want another four years of tariffs, corruption, weekly scandals, puerile attacks of opponents, straining the Constitution to the breaking point, nepotism, obvious lies, and speeches by a man who talks like he’s in the fourth grade?  Is this really your vision of the President of the greatest nation in the world?
Remember, Trump won. You can keep shouting orange man bad like that all you want, I don't think it's anywhere near as effective as you think. Sure, probably sounds smart at parties but out in the real world, it just ain't gonna fly.


No, Democrats have plenty to run on come 2020.
You cannot imagine how much I hope everything you put up here is what they actually run on. It would be glorious.

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2019, 10:39:55 AM »
Trump’s approval rating has never gone above 50 percent since his first days as President, hovering around 40 percent.  His disapproval rating has never gone below 50 percent, hovering around 55 percent.  People do not love this President.

I'm going to put on the broken record on this one. You DO realize that people like me are part of the 55% who disapprove of the job President Trump is doing?

Those numbers don't necessarily meant what you think they mean.

Congress isn't doing so hot either, but they've been doing terrible for over a decade now.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx
It really depends on how that question is asked, doesn't it? I don't like Trump personally. He's kind of a jerk. I may very well be in the 55% disapproval stat depending on how it was asked and the way it was framed. Add in the unprecedented fake news onslaught from the MSM, and it's amazing to me his approval rating is above 20%. It just shows how hard it is to discredit the truth in a free society, thank God for the internet and Twitter.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2019, 11:15:48 AM »
I agree with Crunch. A lot of people who disapproved of Hillary or Donald still voted for one or the other because they disapproved of the other one more. Let's also recognize that some people are unsatisfied with Trump because he's not Trump enough for them.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2019, 11:54:26 AM »
Let's also recognize that some people are unsatisfied with Trump because he's not Trump enough for them.

Not sure that many people still listen to Anne Coulter.  ;)

Wayward Son

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2019, 12:16:16 PM »
The question you asked in this thread, Crunch, was "What are Democrats running on in 2020?"  I answered that.  Whether you like the answers or think they will win them the election is immaterial.  Because your opinion doesn't count.  Only the opinion of the electorate in 2020 counts.

You make a lot of statements about what is true and what isn't.  In some of them you are correct; in others, you are utterly wrong.  I would specify which is which, but it is simply not worth the effort, since neither of us will change our minds about what we "know" are the facts, and we pretty much know where we disagree.  And because, once again, it is immaterial.  Our opinions about facts don't count in this case; only the opinion about the facts that are held by the 2020 electorate.

I will note that you are right about Trump's polls not being indicative of how people will vote.  But that wasn't really my point, though.  Most of the Presidents in the past 75 years have had higher approval ratings at this time (Obama, both Bushes, Clinton (barely), Ford (barely), Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower, Truman), and none significantly lower.  Trump is currently not a popular President.  And he won by the very slimmest of margins.  He currently has no room for error.  So regardless of how weak you may perceive the Democratic platform is, there is no way to predict the outcome.  A bad international incident, a bad scandal, an economic downturn, a hurricane, a war with Iran, can change the results on a dime.  So worrying about the efficaciousness of the platform at this point is pointless.

We will see how it all turns out come November 2020.

And the bottom line is, to paraphrase "The Avengers," while you may have an army of facts and opinions of why the Democratic platform is weak and ineffective...

We got a Trump. :)

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2019, 12:36:36 PM »
Nope, none of our opinions really matter. It will be down to the electorate in 2020, just as you say. As it was in 2016. I suppose that’s why democrats are trying to lower the voting age to 16, stack the deck a bit.

I think exploring what the platform will be now is a good time to do it since the candidates are in the field and staking out their positions.

Right now, the positions semm to be: “we hate America, we hate babies, we really hate jews, and we want you to starve. Now give us all your guns.”

I could bewrong but that sounds like a losing position.

Wayward Son

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2019, 12:57:58 PM »
Well, since you are absolutely wrong about the position ("we hate America, we hate babies, we really hate jews, and we want you to starve. Now give us all your guns"), you're doubtlessly wrong about the rest. :)

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2019, 02:07:44 PM »
Lowered voting age has been proposed where / by who?

rightleft22

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2019, 02:40:02 PM »
I personally don’t hate babies, especially when served with a nice Chianti and fava beans. No need for anyone to starve

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2019, 02:51:44 PM »
I'm not a Democrat, but that's binary Crunch for you. Apparently:

access to terminate a pregnancy in the first trimester or extreme birth defects = hating babies
Being upset about Israeli settlements and embargoes on occupied territories = hating Jews
Wanting universal background checks, even in private sales = give us all your guns

I'm not really where the starvation comes in from, considering consistent Democratic Party support for SNAP.

Democrats in Oregon are indeed considering a drop to the voting age. It would only affect state and local elections, since it would require an amendment to change the federal limit. I'm sure the headlines are great fodder in the Alt-Right blogosphere and pirate radio.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2019, 03:05:54 PM »
I'm not a Democrat, but that's binary Crunch for you. Apparently:

access to terminate a pregnancy in the first trimester or extreme birth defects = hating babies

I think he means the 3rd trimester rules that don't have any real limits, including, apparently per the VA governor if the baby is absolutely delivered during a failed abortion (and to be clear the Dems doubled down on that in Congress, when the Republicans put it forward as a stunt).  Accidentally delivered = baby, unarguably.  For others, baby comes even earlier in the process.

Quote
Being upset about Israeli settlements and embargoes on occupied territories = hating Jews

Failing to condemn and then providing political cover for a member engaging in blood liable is what equals hating Jews.  It shouldn't be a secret that anti-semitism is on the rise on the left and has been for a while.  Labelling it as anti-Israel is normalizing the anti-semtic elements by giving them cover with the handful of political protestors.

Quote
Wanting universal background checks, even in private sales = give us all your guns

No.  They want all the guns.  They are proposing impractical and impossible to implement background check systems to try and get another step closer.

The entire history of this debate is that there is no rule or law that is enough, short of confiscation.

Quote
I'm not really where the starvation comes in from, considering consistent Democratic Party support for SNAP.

From supporting socialism, which has directly led to mass starvation virtually everywhere its been tried.

I grant, he writes it in the starkest way, but it's still based on real arguments (unlike the white washing that you're doing of those positions).

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2019, 03:29:14 PM »
I went deliberately to the other end of the scale. Because when he doesn't specify, I can pick whatever I want. He could have made a list like yours, and then we could have debates about nuanced points. The fact that there's a grain of truth to any argument doesn't make broad sweeping characterizations acceptable

"Hating Babies" is not never can be based on a real argument. Even in the extreme case you brought up, it can't be characterized more than being indifferent to babies, and is much more easily based on being compassionate toward the suffering of babies. No doctor is running around doing third trimester elective abortions on a whim. They are performed because there is no long-term viable life for that baby. So, if by some horrific mishap such a baby manages to draw a breath, what is being proposed is that the doctor and the parents should deal with care absent a government regulation forcing pain and horror prolonging treatment.

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2019, 03:33:30 PM »
Democrats in Oregon are indeed considering a drop to the voting age. It would only affect state and local elections, since it would require an amendment to change the federal limit. I'm sure the headlines are great fodder in the Alt-Right blogosphere and pirate radio.

Would it though? I guess there could be a federal statute involved somewhere, but the Constitution itself only requires that anyone over the age of 18 and a citizen of the country be allowed to vote. It doesn't explicitly disallow persons under 18 from voting. Given its my understanding that many states gave women the right to vote before the Constitutional Amendment was passed, and likewise did the same for 18YO's prior to that amendment being passed, I'm inclined to think that's largely a state issue.

And another reason for having the EC.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2019, 03:43:42 PM »
No doctor is running around doing third trimester elective abortions on a whim. They are performed because there is no long-term viable life for that baby.

That gets repeated alot, but as far as I can tell its not true.  Here's a quote from an article on the Washington Post, it's definitely not a pro life article.

Quote
“Based on limited research and discussions with researchers in the field, Dr. Foster believes that abortions for fetal anomaly ‘make up a small minority of later abortion’ and that those for life endangerment are even harder to characterize,” the report stated.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/02/06/tough-questions-answers-late-term-abortions-law-women-who-get-them/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.20b40d08a32c

They also imply that these abortions are roughly about 10k of the million or so annual abortions. 

There isn't good research on a lot of these questions, which always makes me wonder about the highly confident statements that get made on the topic.  In any event, it doesn't appear to me that medical reasons drive the majority of the late term abortions.

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2019, 04:28:45 PM »
Quote
It shouldn't be a secret that anti-semitism is on the rise on the left and has been for a while.  Labelling it as anti-Israel is normalizing the anti-semtic elements by giving them cover with the handful of political protestors.
Other than the freshman, who's comments, as far as I've seen them quoted, seem to be stretched a bit out of proportion, what other indicators have you seen?  I'll readily admit that many liberals on the left who are, let us say, far from hawkish, tend to feel Israel should not be given a pass to do whatever they wish.

I expect a lot of that is generational, but without the proper framing of history behind it, a lot of Israel's actions seem rather suspect if not inflammatory.  Even WITH that framing, some of it still does.  To the younger generation, growing up in near endless conflict, the idea that your turn a blind eye to the actions of a regional ally is ridiculous.  (or maybe something else drives this belief?) 

Almost as ridiculous as framing this perspective as hate against Jews.  What they lack is what is (was?) seen as proper deference to a political ally, military asset, and people and country to whom a large portion of the world feels (felt?) was owed a debt that could never be repaid.  They are judging Israel as a power today, not through the lens of history. 

While ignorance may deprive them of a full picture, and be cause for some naivete, it is not (as I see it at least) antisemitism. 

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2019, 04:49:19 PM »
There isn't good research on a lot of these questions, which always makes me wonder about the highly confident statements that get made on the topic.  In any event, it doesn't appear to me that medical reasons drive the majority of the late term abortions.

That's fair enough, thanks for the link. Which is why I'm content to leave it in the hands of a medical professional. There's not really any evidence that third trimester abortions are happening because the mother loses interest in having a child in the way we think of in earlier cases. The article builds a nice cross-section of suspected reasons, which I won't cherry pick and quote.

In any case, this almost certainly isn't going to be what most Democrats will campaign on. They will probably campaign on the Republican obsession with making abortions harder to obtain with any tactic they can muster. You might think about it like how the Democrats try to make guns harder to obtain, which is undeniable no matter the true endgame in either case.

rightleft22

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2019, 05:32:10 PM »
It just easier to view everything as either or. Gray is a difficult color make look good.

Pro choice - you hate babies and Life
Pro Life - Love Life, Life at all costs and oh how it may cost, love babies but once born your on your own. Social safety net = socialism = bad...  unwanted children are great cannon fodder for our wars, and prison system and why we need our guns.

Speaking of socialism read a intersecting book about the idea of retirement as government policies which was introduced in Germany under Otto von Bismarck. It was contested as being socialism and the end of the world. In hind sight the practice has been a boon to the economies. Who knew sometimes spending money does make money.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2019, 10:58:42 AM »
Other than the freshman, who's comments, as far as I've seen them quoted, seem to be stretched a bit out of proportion, what other indicators have you seen?

Have you ever gone to a protest?  I've seen alot of anti-semitism on signs over the years.  I mean I remember going down to the 99%er protests on Wall Street, where the tv cameras were carefully pointed to avoid the hate filled signs.

But more than that, I view alot of Democratic positions as "sanctioned" hate.  Many of the attacks on Israel bear little semblance to Israeli policies, and completely ignore terrorist actions that they are protecting against.  I mean Israel responding to a rocket attack is labelled as "Israeli aggression."  I can't see any reason for this, it doesn't occur with criticisms of other countries.

I'd say though I can't point directly at fixed statements that clearly cross the lines, only at trends that push at it.  I mean it's an open secret that anti-semitism is on the rise in continental Europe (and not from their right wing) but it's hard to find there too.

You can easily track down anti-semtic comments from Al Sharpton and other black leaders who are welcomed at the highest levels of the DNC (though sometimes the picture of say them meeting the President is buried by the photographer until he's out of office).  You can track down a plethora of statements from local officials and members of the party.

I mean I'm struck by how what I say always happens happened and no one noticed.  The Dems are facing a test of character on open anti-semitism and what does the national media do?  They go out and find a poster behind a table in the WV capital building that is anti-Muslim and blow it up as if it were the position of the entire Republican party and use it to soften the language of the condemnation.  There's no plausible basis to assert a poster at an activists table speaks for anyone but the activists, yet it's in our national discussion, and the anti-semitic posters you can find at many left wing protests are not.  Why is that?

Quote
I'll readily admit that many liberals on the left who are, let us say, far from hawkish, tend to feel Israel should not be given a pass to do whatever they wish.

Even that framing troubles me.  What is Israel given a "pass" to do?  How is it different than say the "pass" that's given to Russia in Crimea, or in their fights with rebels in Kazakhstan over the years?  Or with China in Tibet?  Seems like lots of countries have occupied territory with less basis to do so and received far far less condemnation no matter what they've done.

Can you imagine what would happen if the UN set up an authority for the sole purpose of protecting the national interests of Tibetians and advocating for a 2 state solution?

Quote
Almost as ridiculous as framing this perspective as hate against Jews.  What they lack is what is (was?) seen as proper deference to a political ally, military asset, and people and country to whom a large portion of the world feels (felt?) was owed a debt that could never be repaid.  They are judging Israel as a power today, not through the lens of history.

Where do you think the enduring racial hatred towards Jews comes from?  The blood libels and sterotypes are being spread intentionally, whether we can see it or not.   

DonaldD

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2019, 11:59:50 AM »
Quote
I mean it's an open secret that anti-semitism is on the rise in continental Europe (and not from their right wing)
Wait... what? There is absolutely a trend towards anti-semitism from both the political right and left - pretending that it is not from the right wing is simply a-factual - unless you do not believe that Viktor Orbán, or the P.I.S. Party, or the A.F.D, or the National Front, exist.

Or do you simply mean that anti-semitism is so entrenched in the European right wing that its prevalence has simply not increased in the recent past?  That also would not be correct.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2019, 12:12:02 PM »
Quote
I mean Israel responding to a rocket attack is labelled as "Israeli aggression."  I can't see any reason for this, it doesn't occur with criticisms of other countries.

For some reason, people have a problem with collective punishment. When our bases got hit by rockets in Iraq, we didn't go out and start bulldozing neighborhoods AFAIK. Argument for another day, just wanted to put that out there.

Sure, you can find people with whom the DNC is aligned that they don't disavow. They are some very fine people on both sides. The difference might be that the DNC understands how to keep the blanket pulled up. They really can't be so anti-semitic, when Jewish people flock to the polls in their favor. They even voted 2-1 in favor of Walter Mondale. I would be that the Jewish community has probably observed most of the protests you are describing.

I dug back into the archives about occupy. There were some isolated people there with some distinctly, clear-cut anti-semitic posters. I also read that they were widely shunned and countered by most of the protesters. The groups that normally condemn anti-semitism were clear about the limited scope:

Quote
And Marjorie Dove Kent, executive director of Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, which has taken part in the protests, said that the movement had a diffuse leadership and that individual protesters had indicated their condemnation of the sign-carrying man by shouting him down.

Quote
Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, urged the protest organizers to condemn any expressions of anti-Semitism, but said, “There are manifestations in the movement of anti-Semitism, but they are not expressing or representing a larger view.” He also pointed out that, according to his organization’s periodic polls, roughly one in six Americans believed Jews had too much power in Wall Street and the American government.

Compare and contrast to the alt-right events with a significant representation from hate groups, as opposed to finding one dude with a sign.

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2019, 12:16:09 PM »
Quote
Even that framing troubles me.  What is Israel given a "pass" to do?  How is it different than say the "pass" that's given to Russia in Crimea, or in their fights with rebels in Kazakhstan over the years?  Or with China in Tibet?  Seems like lots of countries have occupied territory with less basis to do so and received far far less condemnation no matter what they've done.
And this “rebuttal”(?) troubles me.  For I could have used similar to point out how it is entirely consistent thinking.  For from my point of view, at least amongst actual left leaning people I have contact with, as opposed to hypothetical ones, that they are equally if not more dismayed by the examples you cite. 

To be fair I do not sit in with college age student groups or attend protests.  So I won’t call your assessment wrong, but I can say with some certainty that it is not the full picture.  And while that age bracket may have a larger social media footprint then their demographic, they trade that in at the polls with a proportionate amount of apathy.  I am after all not immune to the pressures of “the media” or “echo chamber” noises I suppose, but your breakdown about the “test of character” seems so much as satire meant as wishful thinking by the opposing party.  That the left holds itself to a higher standard and is thereby more injured by any hint of hypocrisy is no secret, but I just look on all this and think, “are they serious right now?”

Quote
Where do you think the enduring racial hatred towards Jews comes from?  The blood libels and sterotypes are being spread intentionally, whether we can see it or not. 
A valid question, but from where I’m sitting, unrelated.  I mean, it IS related in that any criticism of Israel’s policies can be viewed as such, but that doesn’t make it so.  Just as any criticism of our own (US) policies does not mean one “hates America” or Americans.  As we went through two terms of criticism against Obama being labeled by some as obvious racism I find the swiftness to equate any criticism of a state as obvious antisemitism

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2019, 12:43:47 PM »
Quote
I mean it's an open secret that anti-semitism is on the rise in continental Europe (and not from their right wing)
Wait... what? There is absolutely a trend towards anti-semitism from both the political right and left - pretending that it is not from the right wing is simply a-factual - unless you do not believe that Viktor Orbán, or the P.I.S. Party, or the A.F.D, or the National Front, exist.

Or do you simply mean that anti-semitism is so entrenched in the European right wing that its prevalence has simply not increased in the recent past?  That also would not be correct.

Lol, that was a particularly in-artful way to phrase it on my part.  It's closer to the latter idea than the former.  The European right wing, in many places, seems to be anti-everyone including anti-semitic.   The concept I was trying to capture is that the big shift has been on the liberal side where they are increasingly anti-semetic, but not in any way to imply the European right was not also anti-semitic.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2019, 12:51:10 PM »
The US doesn't give 3 billion dollars of military hardware every year to Russia and China. We don't use our security council veto to protect Russia and China. Criticism of Israel is higher because America is explicitly culpable and responsible for what Israel does.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2019, 01:00:09 PM »
Quote
I mean Israel responding to a rocket attack is labelled as "Israeli aggression."  I can't see any reason for this, it doesn't occur with criticisms of other countries.

For some reason, people have a problem with collective punishment. When our bases got hit by rockets in Iraq, we didn't go out and start bulldozing neighborhoods AFAIK. Argument for another day, just wanted to put that out there.

It's interesting.  What about a rocket attack or the use of terrorism is not collective punishment?  Israel is directly responding to collective punishment and people who deliberately cover for the perpertrators.

I'd also dispute the very idea you are laying out here.  People seem to love collective punishment, they say they don't, but when you look at what they support its pretty clear.  They love sanctions, even ones that can be proven hurt the poor, they love missiles and bomb attacks over targetted actions, they love the idea of "bombing them back to the stone age."  Maybe it's not our better nature, but it's part of our character.

I mean heck, doesn't anyone wearing a MAGA hat deserve what's coming to them? 

Quote
They really can't be so anti-semitic, when Jewish people flock to the polls in their favor. They even voted 2-1 in favor of Walter Mondale. I would be that the Jewish community has probably observed most of the protests you are describing.

I still don't understand certain groups preferences for the Dems.  With the Jews, the theory is that they culturally have a strong commitment to the protections of civil rights and that the Dems were carrying the banner on those.  That's no longer true, in fact it's flipped completely.  Dems are ruthlessly in favor of suppressing the ideas of others, deplatforming them, tearing from their jobs and livlihoods. 

It's similar to the conundrum I see for black voters.  Republican policies are better for their futures, but they've locked themselves into a Democratic party that ignores them.  Why?

This is why the Democrats focus heavily on pretending Republicans are about hate, because when you get into the actual policies and reasonable choices their policies are not good for their constituentcies.

Quote
I dug back into the archives about occupy. There were some isolated people there with some distinctly, clear-cut anti-semitic posters. I also read that they were widely shunned and countered by most of the protesters.

I was there.  I agree they were marginalized, but they were always there.  Can you imagine letting off the Republicans if there was always a poster carrier with a racist message at their events, no matter how marginalized?  We know the answer, people made up that they heard racist shouts at tea party events and it was national coverage.

Quote
And Marjorie Dove Kent, executive director of Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, which has taken part in the protests, said that the movement had a diffuse leadership and that individual protesters had indicated their condemnation of the sign-carrying man by shouting him down.

Sure, easy to show, easy to prove.  I don't think anti-semitism is a majority position for any major party.  But then neither is racism and that doesn't stop the tar and feather brigade.

Quote
Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, urged the protest organizers to condemn any expressions of anti-Semitism, but said, “There are manifestations in the movement of anti-Semitism, but they are not expressing or representing a larger view.” He also pointed out that, according to his organization’s periodic polls, roughly one in six Americans believed Jews had too much power in Wall Street and the American government.

That's a quote that the movement itself is manifesting anti-semitism, and of a wide spread belief that is anti-jewish under the surface.  That makes it worse not better that the Dems couldn't condemn anti-semitism on its own.  It lets you know exactly how close to the surface those beliefs are.

Lest you think I'm being petty about that.  Do remember how big the uproar was when immediately after BlackLivesMatter became a thing, someone tried to start the AllLivesMatter movement?  The left crucified that idea as a immoral attack on black people that undermined their unique pain.  What's different here?  Is it just that the left is not accountable to its own standards?   Or is it that they really can't get enough support to condemn anti-semitism?  Or is it a mix?

Quote
Compare and contrast to the alt-right events with a significant representation from hate groups, as opposed to finding one dude with a sign.

Take a look at what the term "Alt Right" means.  It's literally a rebranding of old school racists.  Are you really suggesting that the comparison group for the DNC is the KKK?