Author Topic: What are Democrats running on in 2020?  (Read 564 times)

Seriati

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2019, 01:07:00 PM »
That the left holds itself to a higher standard and is thereby more injured by any hint of hypocrisy is no secret, but I just look on all this and think, “are they serious right now?”

The left does not hold itself to a higher standard.  The left holds others to a standard that it can't meet itself.

Behar in black face?  I looked good.  Megan Kelly talked about blackface?  Forced to resign.

How many Democrats are forced to resign over ethics issues?  There are plenty that get caught.  We have 3 Dem candidates right now with scandals related to sexual harrasment on their campaign staffs, not one is being forced out of the race.  Republicans with the same would be dead in the water. 

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I mean, it IS related in that any criticism of Israel’s policies can be viewed as such, but that doesn’t make it so.  Just as any criticism of our own (US) policies does not mean one “hates America” or Americans.  As we went through two terms of criticism against Obama being labeled by some as obvious racism I find the swiftness to equate any criticism of a state as obvious antisemitism.

I fully agree that criticism of Israel can be separated from criticism of the Jewish people.  But when the arguments bleed over into blood liable that isn't what's happening.  The mea culpa to "I meant Israel" is purely a distraction.

Omar's comments were about Jews, not about Israel's policy.  They were flat out implying that American Jews wouldn't serve the USA because of divided loyalties.  There's nothing about them that was grey.

D.W.

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2019, 01:16:29 PM »
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We have 3 Dem candidates right now with scandals related to sexual harrasment on their campaign staffs, not one is being forced out of the race.  Republicans with the same would be dead in the water. 
You now believe the disqualifier is "anyone on a candidate's staff"?  Or at least, I suppose, you are suggesting that is the Democrat's standard?   :o

TheDrake

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2019, 01:29:16 PM »
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Take a look at what the term "Alt Right" means.  It's literally a rebranding of old school racists.  Are you really suggesting that the comparison group for the DNC is the KKK?

By alt-right events, I mean the ones sponsored by or heavily attended by those very old school racists, such as Unite the Right in Charlottesville. Literally carrying torches and wearing swastikas, and nobody was marginalizing them.

I'm not suggesting that this represents mainstream Republican views. But you don't find the equivalent alt-left rally with respect to anti-semitism.

Fenring

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2019, 01:33:42 PM »
I fully agree that criticism of Israel can be separated from criticism of the Jewish people.  But when the arguments bleed over into blood liable that isn't what's happening.  The mea culpa to "I meant Israel" is purely a distraction.

Omar's comments were about Jews, not about Israel's policy.  They were flat out implying that American Jews wouldn't serve the USA because of divided loyalties.  There's nothing about them that was grey.

While obviously controversial, I believe it's clear as day that the charge of anti-semitism is thrown against anyone critcizing Israel on political matters. Israeli publications, as well as Netanyahu himself, do this as a matter of course. And I believe it's ultimately destructive to Israel to continue to equate political disagreement with anti-semitism, because it's a slap in the face to the real issue of anti-semitism.

As for Omar's comments about the pro-Israel lobby, I likewise see this as being an entirely valid objection; namely, that a foreign lobby should wield direct political influence in America. If it were any other country there would be a political bloodbath over it. Granted, Israel has a peculiar and very short history, and has been subjected to some very bad stuff over the decades, and arguably has needed special protection. But separating the two - helping Israel, as opposed to Israel having purchase over American politicians - is needful if the matter is going to be discussed reasonably. And in greater context, I object to any lobby at all wielding political influence.

Regarding the issue (which I believe you bring up) of insisting this isn't about Israel but is really about anti-semitism (since it's about American Jews) I believe this is just a matter of framing the issue correctly. In regards to foreign affairs, especially with the Palestinians, one could be for the approach of the current Israeli government, or against it, or somewhere in between. This is a separate matter from the general attitude of American Jews towards Israel, which is an issue of Zionism and has nothing to do with any particular conflict with the Palestinians but is a cultural viewpoint that is taught from childhood as a general principle. There are indeed, people who are probably anti-Semitic and therefore also have a problem with Zionists, but it's equally possible to have a problem with Zionism withouth being anti-Semitic, and this is the issue that I believe Omar was bringing up. It's a controversial issue that seems to have been aired before (although I've not paid much attention to it in U.S. politics), and on its face is about the idea of American citizens having allegiance to a foreign country. There could be an interesting debate about the merits or demerits of this, but unless it can be divorced from the anti-Semitism smokescreen no one can pretend to be discussing it seriously.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 01:35:49 PM by Fenring »

DonaldD

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2019, 01:46:38 PM »
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But when the arguments bleed over into blood liable that isn't what's happening
Blood Libel?  Really?  OK, I'll bite - where are leftists claiming that jews have been murdering christians for their blood?  Sure, there are nazis, Russian nationalists and muslim nutbars making these claims, but nobody in the mainstream of US politics.

D.W.

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2019, 01:54:20 PM »
I had assumed that the term was a short hand for the type of ridiculously racist slurs.  (If one meant to brand it even worse than vanilla bigotry/racism/religious persecution...)   ::)

Seriati

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2019, 02:03:03 PM »
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We have 3 Dem candidates right now with scandals related to sexual harrasment on their campaign staffs, not one is being forced out of the race.  Republicans with the same would be dead in the water. 
You now believe the disqualifier is "anyone on a candidate's staff"?  Or at least, I suppose, you are suggesting that is the Democrat's standard?   :o

I believe that if the charges were about a Republican the media would not allow it to be "about a staff member" but rather proof that sexism began at the top, with the candidate. 

I don't think it's the right standard, just pointing out what I see as inconsistency.  Again, you have Republicans going to jail for "lying" where Dems were given immunity.  I don't see it as a higher standard at all.

Seriati

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2019, 02:06:26 PM »
As for Omar's comments about the pro-Israel lobby, I likewise see this as being an entirely valid objection; namely, that a foreign lobby should wield direct political influence in America. If it were any other country there would be a political bloodbath over it.

You walk me through this?  Are you really asserting that Omar's nonsense is reality?  Do you honestly think that we're talking about paid lobbyists of some sort for Israel?

She's talking about American Jewish organizations.  Irish American clubs are not the same thing as Irish government lobbyists. 

Am I missing something here?  Where do you think Israel is paying politicians?

Wayward Son

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2019, 02:08:27 PM »
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Are you really suggesting that the comparison group for the DNC is the KKK?

I dunno.  Has Trump ever said there are "some very fine people" in the DNC? ;) :)

Seriati

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2019, 02:08:59 PM »
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But when the arguments bleed over into blood liable that isn't what's happening
Blood Libel?  Really?  OK, I'll bite - where are leftists claiming that jews have been murdering christians for their blood?  Sure, there are nazis, Russian nationalists and muslim nutbars making these claims, but nobody in the mainstream of US politics.

I misused the term you are correct.  I meant it as D.W. said.

TheDeamon

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2019, 02:22:43 PM »
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Take a look at what the term "Alt Right" means.  It's literally a rebranding of old school racists.  Are you really suggesting that the comparison group for the DNC is the KKK?

By alt-right events, I mean the ones sponsored by or heavily attended by those very old school racists, such as Unite the Right in Charlottesville. Literally carrying torches and wearing swastikas, and nobody was marginalizing them.

I'm not suggesting that this represents mainstream Republican views. But you don't find the equivalent alt-left rally with respect to anti-semitism.

1) Nazi's already are marginalized in society at large.
2) Because Republicans and Conservatives are ALL ABOUT nationalizing entire industries, giving preference to others based on racial backgrounds, and generally pursuing anything that even faintly smells of eugenics.

But this is beating a dead horse, I know, it's pointless to mention it. The "Alt-Right" isn't "to the right" of most people who identify as Republican or Conservative. It's to the left on some fronts, and strongly towards authoritarian on others.

There wasn't an effort "to put space between" themselves and the Nazis because from the perspective of Conservatives, the differences are plainly self-evident to them, and thus not needed. It's a common mistake they make constantly.

Fenring

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2019, 02:23:18 PM »
As for Omar's comments about the pro-Israel lobby, I likewise see this as being an entirely valid objection; namely, that a foreign lobby should wield direct political influence in America. If it were any other country there would be a political bloodbath over it.

You walk me through this?  Are you really asserting that Omar's nonsense is reality?  Do you honestly think that we're talking about paid lobbyists of some sort for Israel?

She's talking about American Jewish organizations.  Irish American clubs are not the same thing as Irish government lobbyists.

I find it strange that you would categorically separate these two, if the 'organizations' are hubs for political power and influence. The terms "think tank", "society" and "research institute" are often just euphemisms for private interests connecting with local politics and business. To equate some of these with 'clubs' like where people have get-togethers as restaurants to celebrate their culture is really misleading. 

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Am I missing something here?  Where do you think Israel is paying politicians?

I'll freely admit I don't know the mechanics of how influence is directly leveraged at the highest levels. I'd actually be curious to learn this one day if the information becomes public.

TheDeamon

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2019, 02:32:50 PM »
on its face is about the idea of American citizens having allegiance to a foreign country. There could be an interesting debate about the merits or demerits of this, but unless it can be divorced from the anti-Semitism smokescreen no one can pretend to be discussing it seriously.

So. About those other hyphenated-Americans running around who the Democrats are actively protecting in the name of diversity?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 02:36:10 PM by TheDeamon »

Fenring

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2019, 02:34:55 PM »
So. About those other hyphenated-Americans running around who the Democrats are actively protecting in the name of diversity?

?

TheDeamon

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2019, 02:39:16 PM »
So. About those other hyphenated-Americans running around who the Democrats are actively protecting in the name of diversity?

?

Didn't pare down enough of it, added an underline to emphasize the part I zeroed in on.

The concept that anything pro-Israel on the part of an American prompts "divided loyalties" that needs to be addressed, while we have legions of other hyphenated-Americans running around demonstrating even more overtly divided loyalties, but they're okay, makes the position quite laughable from the left.

Crunch

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2019, 02:40:24 PM »
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We have 3 Dem candidates right now with scandals related to sexual harrasment on their campaign staffs, not one is being forced out of the race.  Republicans with the same would be dead in the water. 
You now believe the disqualifier is "anyone on a candidate's staff"?  Or at least, I suppose, you are suggesting that is the Democrat's standard?   :o

We should probably ask Ralph Northam, he and his team seems to understand precisely what the standards are among Democrats.

D.W.

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2019, 02:48:48 PM »
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The concept that anything pro-Israel on the part of an American prompts "divided loyalties" that needs to be addressed, while we have legions of other hyphenated-Americans running around demonstrating even more overtly divided loyalties, but they're okay, makes the position quite laughable from the left.

I suppose if one ignores the alliance angle, the military angle and the religious angle, then yes, that would make the position quite laughable from the left.

Doing all that though is the real joke.

TheDrake

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2019, 02:54:45 PM »
I think that there have traditionally been a lot of religions that prompt questions of divided loyalty, and in some cases having too much influence.

Catholics
Evangelicals
Mormons

It is generally religious groups that face claims of divided loyalty, and perhaps deservedly. Most of them would put God first in a pinch, they talk about serving God, accepting His will, etc.

Sometimes, when one of those groups pushes a policy, they do get criticized and they do also cry that someone is being anti-Christian, etc.

Fenring

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2019, 03:05:11 PM »
The concept that anything pro-Israel on the part of an American prompts "divided loyalties" that needs to be addressed, while we have legions of other hyphenated-Americans running around demonstrating even more overtly divided loyalties, but they're okay, makes the position quite laughable from the left.

Can you give examples of other 'hyphenated-Americans' that are an apples to apples comparison here? Or perhaps I can ask exactly what you mean by "divided loyalties" such that you think there are many other examples of this that are overlooked.

And just for clarity, I don't agree with TheDrake that "loyalty to God" is a good example of this, because God is not a foreign nation with an agenda that might be at cross-purposes with America's. And to whatever extent some people believe God's desires (if they exist) are at cross purposes with American policy, this would just be a different way of saying "we believe American policy is wrong", which is basically the heart of American debate regardless of the source of the belief.

TheDrake

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2019, 03:10:21 PM »
The Vatican is a foreign country. *ducks*

Fenring

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2019, 03:14:13 PM »
The Vatican is a foreign country. *ducks*

Haha! Fair enough.

Seriati

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2019, 03:23:38 PM »
I think that there have traditionally been a lot of religions that prompt questions of divided loyalty, and in some cases having too much influence.

But see then we are talking about Jewish people if we are talking religion, not Israel.

D.W.

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2019, 03:37:28 PM »
Can the two be neatly separated?  We aren't talking about a theology divorced from geography (and therefore politics) after all.

TheDeamon

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2019, 01:42:36 PM »
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The concept that anything pro-Israel on the part of an American prompts "divided loyalties" that needs to be addressed, while we have legions of other hyphenated-Americans running around demonstrating even more overtly divided loyalties, but they're okay, makes the position quite laughable from the left.

I suppose if one ignores the alliance angle, the military angle and the religious angle, then yes, that would make the position quite laughable from the left.

Doing all that though is the real joke.

Eh, I'm thinking more of the guys who come to the United States, demand all kinds of rights, entitlements, accommodations, and then wave the flag of their country of origin(not the United States) at every opportunity they can get. But hey, to each their own.

Lloyd Perna

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2019, 03:24:19 PM »
Lowered voting age has been proposed where / by who?

It was proposed as an amendment to the "For the People Act" in the House last week.  124 Democrats and 1 Republican voted for it 

"including California Reps. Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell, Maxine Waters and Ted Lieu, Hawaii Rep. and Democratic presidential candidate Tulsi Gabbard, New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Michigan Rep. Rashida Tlaib and Minnesota Rep. Ilhan Omar."

Today Nancy Pelosi said “I myself, personally, I’m not speaking for my caucus, I myself have always been for lowering the voting age to 16, I think it’s really important to capture kids when they’re in high school when they’re interested in all of this when they’re learning about government to be able to vote."



D.W.

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #75 on: March 14, 2019, 03:30:04 PM »
Thanks Lloyd.  While I don't disagree in theory with getting "kids" interested in our government as early as possible, I'm not sure I'm cool with 16 year-old's picking the next POTUS.  :P

And thanks for pointing it out in the first place Crunch.

Fenring

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2019, 02:00:01 AM »
Am I missing something here?  Where do you think Israel is paying politicians?

Just a small follow-up, since I didn't think to mention it earlier, but anytime you're interested to know the "what" of political influence, I would first recommend finding the hubs of power such as these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee

These "committees" and, as I mentioned above, societies, think tanks, and so forth, are simply clearinghouses and strategy bases for particular agendas of all stripes. I call this the "what" because one can tell what they are doing, but the question you're asking - the "how" - as in, how do they actually get what they want: that's the part that would be really neat to find out. You can see a fictionalized version of such things in House of Cards but realistically I have no idea the sorts of ways these lobbyists get their way. Is it covert personal bribes? Special favors offered, Godfather-style, that have no dollar value to trace? Promises to have certain allied partners make campaign contributions? Blackmail leverage? Maybe any or all of these. It's up to the imagination, really, since there will be no evidence to be found.

Just in case I'm making this sound like an anti-Israel comment, I would make the same case about any 'society' that uses private power to influence American politics.

DonaldD

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2019, 06:33:00 AM »
Originaly posted by Fenring:
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As for Omar's comments about the pro-Israel lobby, I likewise see this as being an entirely valid objection; namely, that a foreign lobby should wield direct political influence in America.
Wait a minute - is this an accurate paraphrasing of Omar's statements?  Omar absolutely wrote and spoke about political influence "in this country" pushing "allegiance to a foreign country" but did she also talk about these influencers being foreign lobbies wielding direct influence in the USA? Unless you think that groups like AIPAC are in some way "foreign"... I really doubt it, but I am open to being shown otherwise.

Omar has already stepped on a number of linguistic land mines; people should be careful not to further misrepresent, even inadvertently, what she actually said or wrote.


Fenring

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2019, 12:35:01 PM »
Wait a minute - is this an accurate paraphrasing of Omar's statements?

In order to make sense of a short claim a larger argument sometimes has to be made. For instance if a person said "rainbows are caused by water" I might have to go into a large discussion about optics, refraction, and wavelengths, to whcih you might argue whether that discussion can realistically be called an accurate paraphrase. Well of course it isn't, but it's necessary in order to evaluate the point.

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Omar absolutely wrote and spoke about political influence "in this country" pushing "allegiance to a foreign country"

So far so good...

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but did she also talk about these influencers being foreign lobbies wielding direct influence in the USA? Unless you think that groups like AIPAC are in some way "foreign"... I really doubt it, but I am open to being shown otherwise.

So the sticking point here is that you would like to be shown a direct link between the object of a lobby and the lobbyists? First of all I think it would be naive to suppose that there is literally no link at all. That would be like arguing that the super-PAC's have no connection to either political party. Sure, they have 'officially' separated themselves from the parties in their activities in order to obey the law, but come on. Second of all, you would have to suppose a superhuman level of integrity and incorruptibility to suppose that lobbyists suing for Israel are not in contact with Israel or conferring with its government. But again, this would be true of any lobby group and isn't particular to this case.

I'm not even commenting on whether their goals are laudable or not, just what the structure is. The founder of AIPAC was an Israeli foreign affairs minister, according to Wikipedia, and the organization routinely meets with Israeli contacts. You can Google a meeting 60 members of AIPAC had this January in Israel with Netanyahu. Now, again this group may have the best of intentions and we could even debate whether we agree with them, but I'm talking purely about what the facts on the ground are in terms of a local lobby directly pushing a foreign interest, with clear ties to that country.

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Omar has already stepped on a number of linguistic land mines; people should be careful not to further misrepresent, even inadvertently, what she actually said or wrote.

Agreed. But I don't go in for shredding a person for saying something un-politically correct. I would rather a person be correct than politically correct.

DonaldD

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Re: What are Democrats running on in 2020?
« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2019, 06:36:32 PM »
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So the sticking point here is that you would like to be shown a direct link between the object of a lobby and the lobbyists?
No.  Mislabeling an entity as "foreign" as you did, and putting those words into Omar's mouth, is the issue: there is a non-trivial difference between characterizing a lobby as a foreign entity (especially one wielding direct political influence) and talking about domestic entities pushing allegiance to foreign country.