Pope Francis questions Trump's Christianity

[Pete at Home]

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-35607597

The Pope has questioned US Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump's Christianity over his call to build a border wall with Mexico.
Pope Francis said "a person who thinks only about building walls... and not of building bridges, is not Christian".
The New York businessman supports deporting nearly 11 million undocumented immigrants.
Calling himself a "proud Christian", Mr Trump blamed Mexico for the Pope's remarks, calling them "disgraceful

Christians believe that Pride is a sin, Donald.

[JoshCrow]

No true Scotsman... etc.

[Pete at Home]

No true Scotsman... etc.

Say what?

Seems to me that the Pope is entitled to opine on what a Christian is or isn't.  Isn't the airing kg such opinions basically his job description?

I am glad that the Pope uses the behavior and belief standard of Christianity shared by the Catholics I grew up with, rather than the sprinkled by someone whose opinions don't conflict with our arcane creed definition that seems to predominate among English speaking internet denizens who call themselves Catholics.  I will have to pop over to Catholic Answer forum and see how many dweebs I can find there that think themselves more Catholic than the Pope.

[Pete at Home]

Trump's better response, rhetorically, would be to point to the Vatican's own walls and speaking to the Pope of the Vatican state, say "Mr Pope, tear down wall." or ask how many Muslim refugees the Vatican has taken in.

But ultimately not persuasive.

[Seriati]

I don't really see how the Pope's opinion is relevant for anyone that isn't a Catholic.  He's not a divine representative to me.

I'm also fascinated, by all the pictures that come up when you google "Vatican wall".  Hmmm...

[NobleHunter]

Some non-Catholics are more ecumenical than others.

I doubt Pope Francis has put much thought into the building of the Vatican's walls.

[Pete at Home]

I don't really see how the Pope's opinion is relevant for anyone that isn't a Catholic.  He's not a divine representative to me.

Nor to me, but I contemplate Popes' reasoning as Persuasive Authority.  Also, the statement may sway many Americans who are Catholic.

In other religious news, Patriarch Prays with Penguins.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35607237

[Fenring]

Trump's better response, rhetorically, would be to point to the Vatican's own walls and speaking to the Pope of the Vatican state, say "Mr Pope, tear down wall." or ask how many Muslim refugees the Vatican has taken in.

But ultimately not persuasive.

I was about to mention refugees myself. If the pope believes that 'building bridges' should take priority over rule of law then I await his decision to admit unlimited refugees to Vatican City - as many as can physically fit there. After all, one wouldn't want to create walls.

[Pete at Home]

Never know with a Jesuit; the Pope just might take him up on it.

[Pete at Home]

I was about to mention refugees myself. If the pope believes that 'building bridges' should take priority over rule of law

Oh boo.  Law doesn't happen in war.  This issue is not about rule of law.  It's about safety vs charity.  About helping desperate people while not destabilizing ourselves and putting our own kids at risk.

[Fenring]

I was about to mention refugees myself. If the pope believes that 'building bridges' should take priority over rule of law

Oh boo.  Law doesn't happen in war.  This issue is not about rule of law.  It's about safety vs charity.  About helping desperate people while not destabilizing ourselves and putting our own kids at risk.

Uh, you know those areas of concern are addressed by laws, right? An organized nation tends not to be every man for himself to determine his own foreign policy. Maybe it works for a small town, but when you have to manage millions of people you need a rule. The issue of immigration to America is a question about law, which just means a decision has to be made about how to handle it. Once a decision is made it's meant to be upheld. Or are you suggesting that laws are only suggestions until they become inconvenient?

[NobleHunter]

I think the Pope was suggesting that someone who thinks "how can I keep them and their problems away from me?" instead of "how can I  best fulfill my Christian duties to them?" is not a Christian. That "best" part is a bit of a sticking point but it's not meant to be an easy question. The law is only relevant insofar as it affect "best" and because Trump may (God forbid) be in a position to make law.

[Pete at Home]

I was about to mention refugees myself. If the pope believes that 'building bridges' should take priority over rule of law

Oh boo.  Law doesn't happen in war.  This issue is not about rule of law.  It's about safety vs charity.  About helping desperate people while not destabilizing ourselves and putting our own kids at risk.

Uh, you know those areas of concern are addressed by laws, right? An organized nation tends not to be every man for himself to determine his own foreign policy. Maybe it works for a small town, but when you have to manage millions of people you need a rule. The issue of immigration to America is a question about law, which just means a decision has to be made about how to handle it. Once a decision is made it's meant to be upheld. Or are you suggesting that laws are only suggestions until they become inconvenient?

I'm saying that common law itself is based on reasonableness, recognizing that there are circumstances which make laws unreasonable.  If you are waiting at a red light and the car behind you opens up and shooting gunmen emerge, you run the damned light. 

Also saying that laws are a covenant with those that benefit from them.  If you're shut outside a wall, you are outside the covenant

[Pete at Home]

In any event.I support wall building, but for reasons I doubt Pope Francis would disagree with. Shutting down human and drug and weapons trafficking.  And reducing the number of immigrants that die in the Sonora desert.

[rightleft22]

That the issue we talk about in reference to Trump –Trump being or not being a Christian…

In a recent rally Trump read out some of the lyrics to
"The Snake,"  by Al Wilson
"Oh, shut up silly woman," he says, imitating the snake: "You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in."
The crowd cheers.
Trump stares back. "We're gonna get bit."

Implying the snake was immigrants but easily turned around
Freudian slip, shadow projection, a subconsciously warning to the people that he is the snake

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/donald-trump-is-the-most-dangerous-man-in-the-world-a-1075060.html

The american political system is messed up

[JoshuaD]

I don't really see how the Pope's opinion is relevant for anyone that isn't a Catholic.  He's not a divine representative to me.

I'm also fascinated, by all the pictures that come up when you google "Vatican wall".  Hmmm...

I'm not Catholic, but I listen when the Pope speaks. That station is almost always filled with brilliant men who have dedicated their life to the ideals of compassion, kindness, and goodness.

You don't have to see him as a divine representative to recognize that he's a spiritual authority. I don't believe he's right all of the time (neither do Catholics). I also don't believe I'm bound to think the way he thinks.

I do believe that when he and I disagree, there's more than a good chance I'm wrong and he's right. So I take some time to consider what he's said.

---

I'm surprised the Pope spoke about Donald Trump specifically. Is that confirmed, or was he just talking generally, and someone decided it was about Mr. Trump? 

[NobleHunter]

I understand the context to be that he was asked about Trump and made the quoted statement in the OP as a response. He didn't name names and it's a conditional ("a person who") response but it seems reasonable to infer he was talking about Trump.

[Wayward Son]

Trump has responded with the typical diplomatic aplomb:

“For a religious leader to question a person’s faith is disgraceful,” Mr. Trump said.

The Trump campaign also released a statement from the candidate, defending his hard-line policies on immigration and saying the pope was out of line.

“No leader, especially a religious leader, should have the right to question another man’s religion or faith,” Mr. Trump said, going on to claim that the pope was being used for political purposes by the Mexican government. “They are using the pope as a pawn and they should be ashamed of themselves for doing so, especially when so many lives are involved and when illegal immigration is so rampant.”

Mr. Trump went on to say that he would defend Christianity more aggressively than current political leaders.

“If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS’ ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president because this would not have happened,” Mr. Trump said.

Other members of Mr. Trump’s campaign also pushed back against the pope. Dan Scavino, his social media director, posted an image of Vatican City and noted that it is surrounded by a wall.

And Jerry Falwell Jr., the president of Liberty University and a supporter of Mr. Trump, said that the pope had crossed a line.

“Jesus never intended to give instructions to political leaders on how to run a country,” Mr. Falwell told CNN.

I wonder if these sentiments apply to the Religious Right, too? 

[scifibum]

I'd worry that the Pope's opinion would cost Trump some support, except that would be crazy on multiple levels.

[Pete at Home]

I understand the context to be that he was asked about Trump and made the quoted statement in the OP as a response. He didn't name names and it's a conditional ("a person who") response but it seems reasonable to infer he was talking about Trump.

He also unambiguously asserted that his judgement had no relation to whether the hypothetical person should be elected president.

As a member of the Christian community, I would rather elect a self worshipping pagan who I believe would act to protect Christians from global persecution in Afghanistan, Syrian, Lebanon, and Indonesia, than the proud Christian presidents like Obama, Bush, and Clinton who favored Muslims and did nothing as they were massacred, who bombed Christians on Easter but stopped shelling Muslims on Ramadan, etc., and promoted Islamist terrorism while acting like it did not exist.

[rightleft22]

do you support Trump?

[rightleft22]

Trump is a Christian... not a Christian, what he does does not match the values that he implies he holds.... Big Story the Pope calls out such inconsistencies. WTF

Oh the Pope had no right to speak of what he knows but know not... all must keep silent when speaking about Trump... as Trumps sprouts garbage at anyone he threatened by like a scared little boy.

Why do some many people tip toe around Trumps ?
Every fracking interview I hear from trumps supporters and those that don't contains a defense of his character.  This man is not a man of character though he is a character.

Trump has two policy positions. Don't like it  kill it, if you can't kill it build a wall around it.

This man is dangerous and America is playing with fire.
OMG have we learned nothing from history? Don't we know how such rhetoric and nationalistic exceptionalism if given power ends!

[Fenring]

Trump has two policy positions. Don't like it  kill it, if you can't kill it build a wall around it.

That's a very funny criticism since Trump is the only GOP candidate who has openly and clearly stated that escalating against Russia in Syria is a recipe for WWIII and it's just not worth it. Since I view this as a fairly evident truism I can't credit him with being a prophet for saying so, and yet no one else running in either party is saying that (although Bernie is implying it obliquely).

I can think of various critiques that can be applied to Trump, one of which is that we don't know enough about his true intent to formulate critiques of him with authority. And yet of all possible reasons to accuse him or dislike him, having murderous intent is one of the least pertinent ones I've heard.

[AI Wessex]

Rightleft, which you think would be worse,  Trump or Cruz?

[rightleft22]

The GOP has lost its way. Its embrace of the philosophy of relative truth and the politics of fear will more likely create the fears they preach to and the type of big government they abhor. 

I find all the candidates lacking and normally wouldn’t bother with an opinion.
Trump however to my mind represents the worst of America politics which was already messed up.

Trump has shown that constructive dialog with him is unlikely but if America want a dictator style strong man with mommy and daddy issues to lead them… well I hope the first thing he does is build those walls.    Walls don’t just keep people from getting in they also keep people from getting out.

[AI Wessex]

I fear Cruz more.   He's a mendacious demagogue with dangerous tendencies toward a messianic personality.   There's nothing in any area of his background that suggests he can see issues in a fair light.

[rightleft22]

Messianic demagogue or narcissistic fascist demagogue

which to choose....

How about demanding better then a demogogue

[Fenring]

Trump has shown that constructive dialog with him is unlikely but if America want a dictator style strong man with mommy and daddy issues to lead them… well I hope the first thing he does is build those walls.    Walls don’t just keep people from getting in they also keep people from getting out.

Are you sure that what he hasn't shown is that dialogue with any of these people is unlikely, and he's just satirizing that fact? Political rhetoric has become little more than posturing and tone, and if Trump embodies this fully maybe that's deliberate.

[Pyrtolin]

I'd worry that the Pope's opinion would cost Trump some support, except that would be crazy on multiple levels.

The Pope's opinion is just another opportunity for Trump to create drama and grab headlines. MAybe even score some points with the Evangelicals that he's strutting to at the moment. The Pope couldn't have given him a better gift than a chance to mouth off at such a big authority figure.

[rightleft22]

“And he's just satirizing that fact”

Trump has shown zero ability for honest self-reflection so I find it unlikely that he is playing the Jester.  He says what he thinks but thinks very little.

The words we use matter and how we say them matters. Even if Trumps intention is satire, by appealing to fear and the worst in people he creates the fear and the worst. 

The time of any positive outcome of Trump nonsense in waking up the people to a more rational response (vice reaction) to today’s issues has closed.
People are drinking the cool aid including Trump.   

Changes happens very slowly then all at once. the little things matter

[Pete at Home]

Trump has shown that constructive dialog with him is unlikely but if America want a dictator style strong man with mommy and daddy issues to lead them… well I hope the first thing he does is build those walls.    Walls don’t just keep people from getting in they also keep people from getting out.

Depends on the wall. A border wall between the US and Mexico wouldn't stop people from getting in. It would only change WHERE they got through. That could save hundreds a year from dying in Sonora desert.