Author Topic: Race for the least desirable job  (Read 34751 times)

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Race for the least desirable job
« on: June 18, 2019, 01:59:22 PM »
We are down to five MPs now to replace Theresa May.

Quote
Boris Johnson once again came top of the second ballot, with 126 votes - 12 more than in the first round.

Jeremy Hunt, Michael Gove, Sajid Javid and Rory Stewart also got enough votes to make it into the next round.

Boris has far and away the most support with 126 votes out of 313. Hunt is the closest challenger at 46. Raab got bumped, and he is also a hard brexiteer, so we'd expect most of his support to go to Johnson.

Quote
The remaining candidates will face further ballots later this week, where the lowest-ranked MP will be knocked out until only two are left.

The final two names will then be put to a postal vote of the 160,000 Tory party members, beginning on 22 June, with the winner expected to be announced about four weeks later.

It is hard to believe Johnson breaks the log jam over Brexit.

Heardred

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2019, 05:58:11 AM »
Well I think being Prime Minster is quite a desirable job but as my ilk have been branded by Elton John as stupid, imperialist English idiots my opinion might not count for much.

My name is Wilf and I am a Brexiteer.

Maybe I’ve read too much Science Fiction but I have genuine concerns about the creation of a United States of Europe. No one is talking about the nuts and bolts of the EU; it all seems to be about trade. We had trade while we were in the European Economic Community but that all changed in 1992/3 when, the opposition Labour Party choosing to abstain, the British Government ratified the Maastricht Treaty and I became, unasked,  a citizen of the European Union. It’s irksome that out of 650 M.P.s only 400 voted on this important Treaty.

The present leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, said of the Treaty, in 1993, that it “takes away from national Parliaments the power to set economic policy and hands it over to an unelected set of bankers who will impose the economic policies of price stability, deflation and high unemployment throughout the European Community.” No one knows yet if he has changed his mind. His only concern seems to be about becoming Prime Minster and he’ll support any cause that has nothing to do with Brexit. President Trump’s visit was a godsend to him.

I have many concerns about the USE but I’ll blather on about the policing of this super state.

Europol, the European Union Agency for Law Enforcement, under the guise of the refugee crisis, seems to be able to designate a hotspot in Europe and then send its own operatives there to deal with the situation. They are working currently in Italy and Greece but could go anywhere in the EU and they appear to have diplomatic immunity.  We could end up with a situation where the EU police controlling an EU designated hotspot are from a completely different country to the protestors in that hotspot.

Using non-local police to control a situation, in my opinion, is a bad idea especially when there is a language barrier.

Europol was set up as a data storing facility to fight crime/terrorism. That data can be stored anywhere in Europe but I can only access it if I know the country where it is kept and the laws of that country permit me to see it. Of course everything today is purported to be done to protect us from terrorism but who controls and pays for the protectors. As yet no Caravan has been mentioned.

The European Arrest Warrant, even with recent tweaks, assumes all legal systems across the EU are equal. I put no trust in that assumption whatsoever. My objections to the EAW are basically the same as those being said in Hong Kong about extradition to China.

If we’re all so European why does the Visegrad Group (Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia) feel it has to have meeting before any EU summit. Backscratching?

Sure I might be paranoid and let’s not forget wrong but two of the soundbites of the Remain side were “You’ve got to be in it to fix it” and “Remain and Reform”. David Cameron’s humiliating pre-referendum tour of Europe demonstrated that is not possible.

Fenring

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2019, 10:08:47 AM »
Hi Heardred! Pleased to meet you.

Thanks for your detailed comments on a topic I must confess I know very little about. I don't know enough to comment but it's interesting to read about the topic.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2019, 12:08:20 PM »
Interesting comments. I mostly think the job is thankless at this point in time, as there seems to be no way out of the current Brexit dilemma. Boris seems hell bent on crashing out with no deal, from what I've read. He's definitely not somebody I would call a coalition builder.

I haven't heard the concerns about Europol before in connection with Brexit. As such, I can't really comment much. Is this significantly different from existing Interpol and bilateral law enforcement cooperation? Or is your concern more that the entity is dangerous because of what it could become?

It's an interesting point about how states get added to a union. Typically US states held a popular referendum, and that would appear to be a better idea than a vote by elected representatives. I think it would have been better to shape what an entry or exit would mean before taking such a poll. It appears from the outside looking in, that a lot of Brexit voters focused on one or two issues that were very important to them, and that a big part of it was an emotional notion of sovereignty. Not that there aren't very well considered reasons for that as well, it is one reason why three of the most influential nations didn't join the ICC.

As far as unelected bankers, I'm so used to the idea of the American Fed system that this concern is a little hard for me to fathom. I know some of our own populists, and even our current President, are upset that the Federal Reserve system exists. I'd much rather that than allow a politician direct access to levers like interest rates. Every four years we'd see a big dip in interest rates to goose the economy, I suspect.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2019, 02:40:37 PM »
And then there were two. The strangest part of all this is that it is the party membership that will choose the winner. 160,000 people who are dues paying party members, if I understand it right. Not like all people registered with a party, like a primary usually is in the US. It feels quite undemocratic. The new leader will have about 90 days from when they take over from May until the current EU deadline.

DJQuag

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2019, 06:41:56 PM »
It's like watching a car wreck.

The UK is going to be economically reamed due to Brexit. Mostly because there are some issues, such as the Irish border, which have absolutely no wiggle room. There is no way out there. There will be no deal.

So we'll be booted and be at the mercy of every other secure country in the world who sees a trade partner desperate for anything. No wonder Trump backs it so much. He's salivating at bending the UK economy over a table.

DJQuag

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2019, 06:44:40 PM »
Hey guys do you remember how that one federal agent from Alabama was involved in a police action in Wisconsin and how badly it affected our sovereign rights?

God, that was such an awful day.

Heardred

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2019, 05:05:15 AM »
Fenring and TheDrake

Thanks for the welcome.

I know nothing about US politics other than that which I learn from Fox News and The Late Show with Stephen Colbert so I probably won’t be posting much.

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2019, 04:59:53 PM »
It's like watching a car wreck.

The UK is going to be economically reamed due to Brexit. Mostly because there are some issues, such as the Irish border, which have absolutely no wiggle room. There is no way out there. There will be no deal.

Funny thing for the EU, it has a certain element of MAD for them, Britain is a major trading partner for them. If they deliberately cause Britain's economy to go under, it's going to take them down with it.

Quote
So we'll be booted and be at the mercy of every other secure country in the world who sees a trade partner desperate for anything. No wonder Trump backs it so much. He's salivating at bending the UK economy over a table.

In many respects, American interests would be better suited by dealing with a less united Europe, as they then have more room to negotiate deals on a nation by nation basis. Without much fear that a deal with Greece is going to have much impact on things involving Germany for example.

In someways the EU simplifies things, as there is only point of contact that matters. But at the same time it creates other different headaches in exchange for that simplification.

That and the US needs the UK to play middle-man for a lot of stuff involving Europe something they've done very well since WW2. We'd like to maintain that status quo, as its reasonably comfortable for us. But we wouldn't object to a weaker EU in many respects, puts them back in the state of being clients, rather than their trying to bill themselves as equals at the table.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2019, 03:27:05 PM »
Quote
Johnson’s far-from-sunny view of the French has also now been revealed. He thinks they are “turds”, a remark disgracefully pulled from a BBC documentary on the Foreign Office last year because it threatened to derail the Brexit negotiations – what self-respecting news organisation censors its greatest scoop? – but now exposed by the Daily Mail.

Calling the French “turds” for being intransigent on Brexit is a sign of Johnson’s vulgarity and stupidity. As his second-class degree suggests, his is a second-rate mind trying desperately to persuade us it is a first-rate one by using Latin tags and improper jokes. His useless, vapid books are the measure of the man.

Everything that Johnson has ever said about the world is jokey, insensitive, stupid and needlessly provocative. His racism is well-rehearsed. Where does one begin? Perhaps in 2002 when he discussed a visit to Africa by Tony Blair in an article in his mouthpiece, the Daily Telegraph: “What a relief it must be for Blair to get out of England,” he wrote. “It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies.”

One racist allusion was, however, not enough. He went on: “They say he [Blair] is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and their tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird.”

United Kingdom, that's the guy that's about to be in charge of your country. Congrats.

TheDeamon

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2019, 03:52:59 PM »
Quote
Johnson’s far-from-sunny view of the French has also now been revealed. He thinks they are “turds”, a remark disgracefully pulled from a BBC documentary on the Foreign Office last year because it threatened to derail the Brexit negotiations – what self-respecting news organisation censors its greatest scoop? – but now exposed by the Daily Mail.

Calling the French “turds” for being intransigent on Brexit is a sign of Johnson’s vulgarity and stupidity. As his second-class degree suggests, his is a second-rate mind trying desperately to persuade us it is a first-rate one by using Latin tags and improper jokes. His useless, vapid books are the measure of the man.

Everything that Johnson has ever said about the world is jokey, insensitive, stupid and needlessly provocative. His racism is well-rehearsed. Where does one begin? Perhaps in 2002 when he discussed a visit to Africa by Tony Blair in an article in his mouthpiece, the Daily Telegraph: “What a relief it must be for Blair to get out of England,” he wrote. “It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies.”

One racist allusion was, however, not enough. He went on: “They say he [Blair] is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and their tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird.”

United Kingdom, that's the guy that's about to be in charge of your country. Congrats.

 :o ??? :-\

So many turds in the above article, and Johnson isn't the only one.

DJQuag

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2019, 03:05:38 PM »
Quote
Johnson’s far-from-sunny view of the French has also now been revealed. He thinks they are “turds”, a remark disgracefully pulled from a BBC documentary on the Foreign Office last year because it threatened to derail the Brexit negotiations – what self-respecting news organisation censors its greatest scoop? – but now exposed by the Daily Mail.

Calling the French “turds” for being intransigent on Brexit is a sign of Johnson’s vulgarity and stupidity. As his second-class degree suggests, his is a second-rate mind trying desperately to persuade us it is a first-rate one by using Latin tags and improper jokes. His useless, vapid books are the measure of the man.

Everything that Johnson has ever said about the world is jokey, insensitive, stupid and needlessly provocative. His racism is well-rehearsed. Where does one begin? Perhaps in 2002 when he discussed a visit to Africa by Tony Blair in an article in his mouthpiece, the Daily Telegraph: “What a relief it must be for Blair to get out of England,” he wrote. “It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies.”

One racist allusion was, however, not enough. He went on: “They say he [Blair] is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and their tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird.”

United Kingdom, that's the guy that's about to be in charge of your country. Congrats.

As a reminder, I'm a dual citizen.

Yeah, it's pretty bad. But once you have a Tory government you already know that it's going to be bad. The only metric involved is how bad.

The Tories are bound and determined to undermine the UK economy and standard of living by leaving the EU. They're in power. When it comes to May vs Johnson, if you're being favourable to them, it's comparing a doctor trying to save an already dead and gangrenous limb versus one who just says to cut it off.

Also also, Donald Trump is still in power so we're not the worst yet. Am I trying to make a passable meal out of a shti sandwich? You bet I am.

As an aside unlike Trump, who at minimum has a narcissistic personality disorder, Johnson understands his audience and knows they want to vote for someone who thinks like they do. So he acts like an idiot. It's all a show. He's actually quite intelligent and is putting it on in order to continue the Tory quest to import the absolute worst parts of the US system.

Heardred

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2019, 04:50:28 AM »
It’s not compulsory to be a Brexiteer and a Tory. I had a decent job until the Tories privatised the company I worked for and I was out on my ear. The fat cats in the City made a lot of money in the process. To see them suffer I would pay good money to watch but of course they won’t.

I became, like a lot of my workmates, “White Van Man” and it’s them that suffer the effects of free movement of people. They say our Health Service will suffer without free movement but as yet all the Health Care workers I’ve met come from outside the EU.

DJQuag

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2019, 05:10:36 PM »
It’s not compulsory to be a Brexiteer and a Tory. I had a decent job until the Tories privatised the company I worked for and I was out on my ear. The fat cats in the City made a lot of money in the process. To see them suffer I would pay good money to watch but of course they won’t.

I became, like a lot of my workmates, “White Van Man” and it’s them that suffer the effects of free movement of people. They say our Health Service will suffer without free movement but as yet all the Health Care workers I’ve met come from outside the EU.
Agree to disagree, my friend. I've been in and out of hospital a few times these past few years and an obscene amount of nurses and even doctors had Eastern European accents.

Edit -  Yes, I agree . All proper Englishmen hate the Southern fat cats.

DJQuag

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2019, 04:24:02 PM »
https://youtu.be/R-CIggoU4VM

Pretty much how I feel.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2019, 08:53:25 AM »
As predicted, Johnson is in. I'm sure he'll have that whole brexit thing squared away before Halloween.

DJQuag

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2019, 07:46:25 PM »
As predicted, Johnson is in. I'm sure he'll have that whole brexit thing squared away before Halloween.

An American friend asked me if I was excited about Johnson. Mostly tongue in cheek. I replied that I was excited about him like I'm excited about the strange lump on my testicle I discovered last week. It's a change of pace for sure but the chances of it being positive are really low.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2019, 07:48:00 PM »
Maybe he'll cede northern Ireland to the republic. Border problem solved.

DJQuag

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2019, 07:54:58 PM »
Maybe he'll cede northern Ireland to the republic. Border problem solved.

Didn't you hear? He's gonna look the EU in the face and tell them Brexit means Brexit. And then they'll cave and Britannia will rule the waves again.

Source: Boris Johnson

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2019, 08:24:11 PM »
Other than some chaotic "take back" attempt, I think drawing a line in the sand and letting the EU react may not be the worst thing in the world.  Now, I think Brexit is/was a terrible decision, but a hard date is probably best.  I think the game of chicken is suddenly a lot more credible in their willingness to "crash out". 

We'll see just how generous / willing to play the grownups, the EU is on this mess.  If nothing else this part will be over and the process of cleaning up will begin.

DJQuag

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2019, 09:59:41 PM »
Other than some chaotic "take back" attempt, I think drawing a line in the sand and letting the EU react may not be the worst thing in the world.  Now, I think Brexit is/was a terrible decision, but a hard date is probably best.  I think the game of chicken is suddenly a lot more credible in their willingness to "crash out". 

We'll see just how generous / willing to play the grownups, the EU is on this mess.  If nothing else this part will be over and the process of cleaning up will begin.

I find it interesting that you label a "take it back" vote as chaotic.

The Leave campaign was chock full of flat out lies and deceptions. Even Leaver Jesus Farage said the day after the vote that the campaign's promise of the 350 million a day to the NHS instead of the EU wasn't real.

So. Three years later. After a whole bunch of things revolving around Brexit and the consequences thereof, with the electorate now having a better understanding  of what is actually at stake, why not have another vote?

-spoiler alert. Right wingers oppose another vote because they know the electorate, now being maybe semi literate on the issue, will reject it.

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2019, 10:41:29 PM »
So... we get a do over when the public is lied to or uninformed?  Where does THAT work?  :)

I think your assessment is probably right.  So I guess whenever the voters make a bad call you just stall long enough for them to change their mind... 

Wait, that sounds familiar.

Crunch

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2019, 08:20:25 AM »
Quote
spoiler alert. Right wingers oppose another vote because they know the electorate, now being maybe semi literate on the issue, will reject it.

The vote was held. A do over for the losers is not how it works. If they vote again, why would the second one be the “real” vote?  What’s next, 2 out of 3? Gotta have a tie breaker?

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2019, 09:16:39 AM »
That's what it is going to be, hard brexit. Because they had a vote, Ireland will be separated with a hard border, all people currently living under EU soft borders gets deported, and tariffs kick in. I imagine that will be the effective end of the conservative party, so there's a silver lining.

There's one thing we know for certain, there is no better deal with the EU. They aren't going to cut Ireland loose and create a custom border with the mainland.

I'm just glad the United States has no mechanism for a national popular referendum.

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2019, 09:18:47 AM »
What Crunch said.
Buyer's remorse is just something you have to deal with.  Or develop B.D.S. I suppose?  :P

The alternative is to send a message to your government that the will of the people can be ignored when they don't like the result.  That sounds even worse to me.  But I don't live there, or need to deal with the fallout...  We're too busy over here fretting about ourselves to to sort out other country's problems  (something we typically enjoy!).  :P

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2019, 01:21:07 PM »
I find it interesting that you label a "take it back" vote as chaotic.

The Leave campaign was chock full of flat out lies and deceptions.

Let you in on a secret.  The Remain campaign was chock full of flat out lies and deceptions too.  Not sure why that's a basis for a revote.

What I can also tell you, is no matter whether 75% were leavers, there will never be a single plan for exit that a majority wants to approve.  So yes, if you get your "revote" and the options are stay or follow this specific plan, the results are pre-ordained.  And you've found the technique to pretend to be a Democracy while you are not give the people a "choice" between a specific implementation and a vague policy and the vague wins every time.

Quote
So. Three years later. After a whole bunch of things revolving around Brexit and the consequences thereof, with the electorate now having a better understanding  of what is actually at stake, why not have another vote?

Remind me, how many votes did you take to join the EU?

NobleHunter

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2019, 03:07:39 PM »
Let you in on a secret.  The Remain campaign was chock full of flat out lies and deceptions too.  Not sure why that's a basis for a revote.

What I can also tell you, is no matter whether 75% were leavers, there will never be a single plan for exit that a majority wants to approve.  So yes, if you get your "revote" and the options are stay or follow this specific plan, the results are pre-ordained.  And you've found the technique to pretend to be a Democracy while you are not give the people a "choice" between a specific implementation and a vague policy and the vague wins every time.

So what were the Remain lies? Anything to match the claimed 350 million?

So make the revote on a specific plans, be it hard Brexit or the deal as currently offered. I think pro-Leave people argue against another referendum because they know between Hard Brexit, soft Brexit, and Remain, Remain has the plurality by a wide margin. Parliament's inability to come to a deal reflects the uncertainty of the electorate.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2019, 10:32:24 AM »
Here's a fun twist. Trump administration declared support for a no-deal Brexit and promised fast track trade deals. It seems they forgot that trade deals have to go through Congress, and Pelosi has stated there will be no UK trade deal if the Good Friday Agreement is undermined. Bolton had stated that there would be enthusiastic bipartisan support for speedy ratification.

Oops.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2019, 10:48:50 AM »
Lol, sure.  Pelosi says that, let's see her actually take the consequences of rejecting a trade deal with UK.  I'm sure that'll play well in the states the Democrats need to carry.

It just sounds like bluster to me.  I mean heck, the Senate sent a letter to Iran telling them specifically that Obama didn't have the authority to enter into the Iran agreement and he did it anyway, and made it stick through his term.  Love to see the Democrats trying to hammer the UK as a punishment on trade.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2019, 11:00:46 AM »
It might easily be politically calculated bluster, taking advantage of Bolton's incautious phrasing. Usually somebody would say, "We'll work with our colleagues in Congress to ensure the fastest possible approval for these deals." That leaves an out that Bolton didn't leave by making an unequivocal statement that was probably not vetted out, unless Pelosi and friends did privately tell the adminstration that they were all for the no-deal Brexit and then flipped publicly. I tend to doubt that, however.

It does play well to Irish Americans, most likely. To the world stage it obviously plays well to the EU.

As to what actually happens? Who knows. It would depend on potential terms and all of that.

As to why the US might prefer a no-deal Brexit and fast trade deals, lots of leverage if the UK is getting hit with EU tariffs and scrambling for a lifeline.

D.W.

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2019, 11:05:13 AM »
Hold up, wouldn't our Deal-maker in chief want them in a vulnerable negotiating position?  Convince them to race forward and crash out, then get them to agree to whatever you are willing to give because they need a lifeline (politically if not economically) to show Brexit wasn't a huge mistake?

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2019, 12:56:35 PM »
Hold up, wouldn't our Deal-maker in chief want them in a vulnerable negotiating position?  Convince them to race forward and crash out, then get them to agree to whatever you are willing to give because they need a lifeline (politically if not economically) to show Brexit wasn't a huge mistake?

Not really, a savvy deal maker isn't the same as a vulture.  Trump's history seems to me to imply he's looking for long term partners not one off scams.

In any event, support of the independent UK is about undermining EU bargaining power at least as much as it's about cutting a deal with the UK.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2019, 10:03:53 AM »
Now Boris turns to... the monarchy for help?

Quote
Shutting down Parliament - known as prorogation - happens after the prime minister advises the Queen to do it.

The decision to do it now is highly controversial because opponents say it would stop MPs being able to play their full democratic part in the Brexit process.

A number of high profile figures, including former Prime Minister John Major, have threatened to go to the courts to stop it, and a legal challenge led by the SNP's justice spokeswoman, Joanna Cherry, is already working its way through the Scottish courts.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2019, 10:08:12 AM »
I have no idea tactically if this works.  But the complaint seems to be that this would stop Parliament from exercising its "Democratic role" to undermine the Democratic decision to Brexit.  That's all its about, parts of the government are refusing to process the exit, intentionally, to cause enough chaos to unwind it. 

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2019, 10:33:34 AM »
Or to approve a "new deal" that Boris is supposed to be getting from the EU. Or to do any other business of the UK. It sounds like a sledgehammer to bang in a finishing nail.

Parliament hasn't fundamentally shifted, and it was incapable under May from recommending a new referendum or approving the EU deal.

All I know is they better start building checkpoints on the border with Ireland if they're going to be in place by the end of October.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2019, 10:44:09 AM »
Or to approve a "new deal" that Boris is supposed to be getting from the EU.

There's not going to be a new deal with the opponents of Brexit telling the EU not to deal because they won't approve the existing deal, won't let a hard Brexit happen, and won't back the government on any new deal.  Pretty much, they are behind the scenes telling the EU just hold tight and wait for the Brexit to collapse.

I'm assuming you are aware of all of this, so why are you pretending otherwise in your question?

Quote
Parliament hasn't fundamentally shifted, and it was incapable under May from recommending a new referendum or approving the EU deal.

Parliament has shifted, or at least if you believe the scuttlebut of the intent to call for a vote of no confidence and force an anti-Brexit government.  This seems like a tactic to directly undermine that manipulation.

Quote
All I know is they better start building checkpoints on the border with Ireland if they're going to be in place by the end of October.

Lol, why would the UK do that?  It's the EU that's insisting they'll build the checkpoints, or did you not follow that part of the issue closely?

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2019, 12:03:42 PM »
Apparently the Queen has now approved his request, which gives just a few days for a no confidence vote before Parliament is recessed.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2019, 12:11:07 PM »
I'm aware. Of the previous votes and the makeup of the Parliament that lead to May's exit. Except Boris keeps insisting he's going to try to negotiate, so isn't it worse that he's pretending than whether I'm acknowledging it?

The EU is the EU. Ireland is a part of the EU. Why wouldn't they want a border? After all, if a country can't control its border then it isn't really a nation, or haven't you followed those arguments lately?

Nevertheless, the deal May negotiated had the backstop guaranteeing a seamless uncontrolled border with the UK and the Republic of Ireland, or did you not follow that closely?

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2019, 12:22:56 PM »
I'm aware. Of the previous votes and the makeup of the Parliament that lead to May's exit. Except Boris keeps insisting he's going to try to negotiate, so isn't it worse that he's pretending than whether I'm acknowledging it?

There can be no negotiation with the EU if the hard Brexit is off the table.  It's just pretending to believe the UK can get a fair deal if it systemically disallows use of any leverage it has (just like negotiating the exit payment before and outside the deal was fundamentally flawed).

Quote
The EU is the EU. Ireland is a part of the EU. Why wouldn't they want a border? After all, if a country can't control its border then it isn't really a nation, or haven't you followed those arguments lately?

Because the people in Ireland don't want the border.  I do get all the arguments, and it would be trivially easy to handle the process the airports and ports.  This is just a poison pill the EU threw into the process.   Heck, why not just let the Irish decide whether they prefer internal border check points or slightly more process at the airports.

Quote
Nevertheless, the deal May negotiated had the backstop guaranteeing a seamless uncontrolled border with the UK and the Republic of Ireland, or did you not follow that closely?

I did, and the same people that oppose Boris, rejected and tanked that deal, or did you not notice?  They don't want any deal, cause they don't want to leave.

The seamless result though was a bit of lie, it involved the UK giving up its sovereign right to exit the deal if the EU didn't like the border control process they put in place.

Why is it again that all the unilateral benefits are running to the EU?  Oh yeah, because the UK government has a substantial chunk of people that are undermining the deal.

I mean honestly, isn't rule 1 of getting a good deal that you have to be willing to walk away?

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2019, 12:26:36 PM »
I mean honestly, isn't rule 1 of getting a good deal that you have to be willing to walk away?

Not exactly. You need to understand the Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement (BATNA). IF you can get any deal better than no deal, you don't walk away out of spite or because you think its not fair.

NobleHunter

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2019, 01:05:21 PM »
You also need something the other side wants. It was obvious before the referendum that the EU had little incentive to offer the UK a sweatheart deal post-Brexit. But I'm sure it's the deep state undermining the negotiations.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2019, 01:05:37 PM »
Yet, they rejected May's deal, knowing full well that the EU's position was no improvement on that deal.  So they either rejected it on spite as you put it, or believe that there is negotiating leverage, which acting to undermine would directly conflict with.  There's no logical "deal" position in the opposition, only a position to ultimately tank any deal and undermine the decision to leave.

So if you do want Boris to negotiate a better deal, then your point also applies to the EU, a deal even marginally better than no deal should be agreeable to the EU and not rejected out of spite.

Why is it that only Boris is held to your standard and not anyone else in Parliament or the EU?

NobleHunter

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2019, 01:17:36 PM »
You do understand that there's more than one opposition? That some MPs voted against May's deal because it wasn't Hard Brexit? Why should MPs who want a hard border vote for a deal that could very well keep the UK from implementing any border controls?

What Johnson is trying to do is to run roughshod over the other two factions because a majority of Parliament can't agree under what terms to leave the EU. But I guess autocratically bypassing the legislature is only bad when Democrats do it.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2019, 01:38:39 PM »
Lol, the concept of spite would certainly apply to those that voted against the deal because they wanted it harder, unless they really think the no deal is better.

But you're making a lot of assumptions on the anti-Democratic nature of the process here.  Parliament has been in session for 3 years (which is unusually long), was scheduled for a break in Sept, and it's tradition to break before a Queen's speech.  Granted, this time it's been done this way for politics, but it's silly to decry the actual process that would typically apply.

It's also been done with at least a week of time for Parliament to act.  They can bring a vote of no confidence in that week, they can even pass a law change in that week.  It's up to them to motivate to do that.  There's a lot of speculation that this is exactly what Boris wants, because he wants a general election that is directly on the Brexit point, when May called her general other issues (domestic) ended up overriding the Brexit point, but that may not be possible on this election.  If he's right that he'll increase his majority in that election for Brexit, then he'll have satisfied your concern completely as he'll be expressly backed by the democratic will.

Unfortunately, parallels to the US congress only go so far, as it doesn't have the same types of ability to act on it's own.  But I'd be happy to consider what you're talking about if you want to clarify your vague reference be something other than a soundbite that sounds nice.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2019, 01:45:59 PM »
The EU has a better deal on hard exit than softening their position, I believe. For one thing, the EU has a serious interest in making sure exit is painful or they could wind up coming apart like the USSR. Even if that hurts their short term economic interest. You can't just go for ports without putting impediments in place for trade with the Republic of Ireland. Why should an EU member nation have to bear the expense and hassle of putting customs between itself and France for goods bound to the UK? Then there's the problem of applying tariffs on goods originating in the UK and ending in Ireland. Including cross border traffic from NI. Also putting customs in place for people - all European mainland travelers having to clear customs in Dublin instead of strolling through the EU line. Why would Ireland want that, and what precedent does it set if the EU allows the Republic to be a second class member?

Only 8% of EU trade goes to the UK. That's important and sizeable, but not nearly the 50% that the UK stands to have affected.

As far as the various Parliament blocs, that gets a lot more complicated. Labour rejected the May deal along with many conservatives.

A large amount of Labor and some conservatives went for motion C, narrowly defeated, that maintains a customs union. Motion D was also underwhelming, for common market 2.0. Confirming public vote, Motion E, was similar. Motion G was revoking article 50, blocked again by conservatives.

All of those options were rejected by the Conservatives, and its hard to imagine that at least one of them wasn't better than no-deal brexit which had the least support.

May's deal was massively rejected 432-202. I won't try to delve into the various reasons why each party thought that was worse than a no-deal brexit.

So much of parliament was ready to make several different kinds of deals, but the hard brexiteers weren't having it.

NobleHunter

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2019, 01:51:01 PM »
He's leaving a whole week for Parliament to get its act together when it hasn't managed to do so in three years? How generous. And if he wants an election, he could have called one instead of proroguing parliament for weeks longer than usual. Instead, he's going to give Parliament almost no time to do anything.

Seriati

  • Member
  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2019, 02:13:41 PM »
I've given you my thoughts on this, and related what I've heard about why he may be following the strategy.  It's not however, my strategy, so I'm not sure what you want me to say.

Yes a week is a short time, but if the will to kill Brexit or even just a no Deal Brexit is there its actually more time than is needed.  So that complaint to me is meritless.

I think the point was to deliberately provoke the no confidence vote on a specific issue so that he can campaign on it and keep the election about it, given what happened to May doing otherwise would be counter productive.  Ultimately, if that's what he's doing he's also taking a risk, if "everyone" is right that Brexit couldn't pass today then it is entirely possible the new government will be elected to oppose it.  Again, democracy in action.  I really can't see an objection to this theory, other than not having confidence in the electorate to oppose him.   

TheDrake, I'm aware of what you describe, and you're just as free as I am to ascribe what you believe the motives of the various groups are behind each of the positions.   If you don't find me persuasive, come to your own conclusions about what explains the results.

On Ireland, I've been there and spend a good bit of time with expats and people who live Ireland.  It's my experience they are very pro-EU and very anti internal borders.  Happy to let them decide whether they want to deal with the issues at their border with the EU or at the border with N. Ireland.  Knowing of course, full well, that the former is a minor inconvenience and the latter almost certainly a return to some very dark days.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2019, 03:58:22 PM »
Quote
So if you do want Boris to negotiate a better deal, then your point also applies to the EU, a deal even marginally better than no deal should be agreeable to the EU and not rejected out of spite.

Why is it that only Boris is held to your standard and not anyone else in Parliament or the EU?

I was responding to this challenge.

It's understandable that he might be attempting a brinksmanship challenge, but if so there won't be time to get a new deal with the EU (there probably isn't anyway) nor is there likely to be time for anything to pass that isn't hard brexit. He might consider that a better deal than any available, I tend to think that's wrong which is why I'm holding him to that standard.

To me, the common market proposals allow exit to proceed without customs or hard borders in Ireland. Of course, one of the ideas behind brexit was that they thought the EU trade policies were unfair to the UK. Well, now they're going to be worse.

TheDrake

  • All Members
    • View Profile
Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2019, 06:18:45 PM »
Quote
Johnson lost the procedural vote by 328 to 301. That capped a humiliating day for Johnson, who was jeered, heckled and laughed at mercilessly as he defended his hard-line Brexit stand in Parliament. As Johnson spoke, Conservative lawmaker Phillip Lee dramatically crossed the chamber to defect to the Liberal Democrats, explaining in a statement that Johnson’s party had become “infected with the twin diseases of populism and English nationalism.”

Lee’s theatrical move stripped Johnson of his single-vote working majority in the House of Commons, making it all but impossible for him to enact legislation and increasing his incentive to ask the nation’s voters for a mandate in a general election.

And the least desirable job just got worse.