Author Topic: Race for the least desirable job  (Read 1274 times)

TheDrake

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Race for the least desirable job
« on: June 18, 2019, 01:59:22 PM »
We are down to five MPs now to replace Theresa May.

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Boris Johnson once again came top of the second ballot, with 126 votes - 12 more than in the first round.

Jeremy Hunt, Michael Gove, Sajid Javid and Rory Stewart also got enough votes to make it into the next round.

Boris has far and away the most support with 126 votes out of 313. Hunt is the closest challenger at 46. Raab got bumped, and he is also a hard brexiteer, so we'd expect most of his support to go to Johnson.

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The remaining candidates will face further ballots later this week, where the lowest-ranked MP will be knocked out until only two are left.

The final two names will then be put to a postal vote of the 160,000 Tory party members, beginning on 22 June, with the winner expected to be announced about four weeks later.

It is hard to believe Johnson breaks the log jam over Brexit.

Heardred

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2019, 05:58:11 AM »
Well I think being Prime Minster is quite a desirable job but as my ilk have been branded by Elton John as stupid, imperialist English idiots my opinion might not count for much.

My name is Wilf and I am a Brexiteer.

Maybe I’ve read too much Science Fiction but I have genuine concerns about the creation of a United States of Europe. No one is talking about the nuts and bolts of the EU; it all seems to be about trade. We had trade while we were in the European Economic Community but that all changed in 1992/3 when, the opposition Labour Party choosing to abstain, the British Government ratified the Maastricht Treaty and I became, unasked,  a citizen of the European Union. It’s irksome that out of 650 M.P.s only 400 voted on this important Treaty.

The present leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, said of the Treaty, in 1993, that it “takes away from national Parliaments the power to set economic policy and hands it over to an unelected set of bankers who will impose the economic policies of price stability, deflation and high unemployment throughout the European Community.” No one knows yet if he has changed his mind. His only concern seems to be about becoming Prime Minster and he’ll support any cause that has nothing to do with Brexit. President Trump’s visit was a godsend to him.

I have many concerns about the USE but I’ll blather on about the policing of this super state.

Europol, the European Union Agency for Law Enforcement, under the guise of the refugee crisis, seems to be able to designate a hotspot in Europe and then send its own operatives there to deal with the situation. They are working currently in Italy and Greece but could go anywhere in the EU and they appear to have diplomatic immunity.  We could end up with a situation where the EU police controlling an EU designated hotspot are from a completely different country to the protestors in that hotspot.

Using non-local police to control a situation, in my opinion, is a bad idea especially when there is a language barrier.

Europol was set up as a data storing facility to fight crime/terrorism. That data can be stored anywhere in Europe but I can only access it if I know the country where it is kept and the laws of that country permit me to see it. Of course everything today is purported to be done to protect us from terrorism but who controls and pays for the protectors. As yet no Caravan has been mentioned.

The European Arrest Warrant, even with recent tweaks, assumes all legal systems across the EU are equal. I put no trust in that assumption whatsoever. My objections to the EAW are basically the same as those being said in Hong Kong about extradition to China.

If we’re all so European why does the Visegrad Group (Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia) feel it has to have meeting before any EU summit. Backscratching?

Sure I might be paranoid and let’s not forget wrong but two of the soundbites of the Remain side were “You’ve got to be in it to fix it” and “Remain and Reform”. David Cameron’s humiliating pre-referendum tour of Europe demonstrated that is not possible.

Fenring

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2019, 10:08:47 AM »
Hi Heardred! Pleased to meet you.

Thanks for your detailed comments on a topic I must confess I know very little about. I don't know enough to comment but it's interesting to read about the topic.

TheDrake

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2019, 12:08:20 PM »
Interesting comments. I mostly think the job is thankless at this point in time, as there seems to be no way out of the current Brexit dilemma. Boris seems hell bent on crashing out with no deal, from what I've read. He's definitely not somebody I would call a coalition builder.

I haven't heard the concerns about Europol before in connection with Brexit. As such, I can't really comment much. Is this significantly different from existing Interpol and bilateral law enforcement cooperation? Or is your concern more that the entity is dangerous because of what it could become?

It's an interesting point about how states get added to a union. Typically US states held a popular referendum, and that would appear to be a better idea than a vote by elected representatives. I think it would have been better to shape what an entry or exit would mean before taking such a poll. It appears from the outside looking in, that a lot of Brexit voters focused on one or two issues that were very important to them, and that a big part of it was an emotional notion of sovereignty. Not that there aren't very well considered reasons for that as well, it is one reason why three of the most influential nations didn't join the ICC.

As far as unelected bankers, I'm so used to the idea of the American Fed system that this concern is a little hard for me to fathom. I know some of our own populists, and even our current President, are upset that the Federal Reserve system exists. I'd much rather that than allow a politician direct access to levers like interest rates. Every four years we'd see a big dip in interest rates to goose the economy, I suspect.

TheDrake

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2019, 02:40:37 PM »
And then there were two. The strangest part of all this is that it is the party membership that will choose the winner. 160,000 people who are dues paying party members, if I understand it right. Not like all people registered with a party, like a primary usually is in the US. It feels quite undemocratic. The new leader will have about 90 days from when they take over from May until the current EU deadline.

DJQuag

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2019, 06:41:56 PM »
It's like watching a car wreck.

The UK is going to be economically reamed due to Brexit. Mostly because there are some issues, such as the Irish border, which have absolutely no wiggle room. There is no way out there. There will be no deal.

So we'll be booted and be at the mercy of every other secure country in the world who sees a trade partner desperate for anything. No wonder Trump backs it so much. He's salivating at bending the UK economy over a table.

DJQuag

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2019, 06:44:40 PM »
Hey guys do you remember how that one federal agent from Alabama was involved in a police action in Wisconsin and how badly it affected our sovereign rights?

God, that was such an awful day.

Heardred

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2019, 05:05:15 AM »
Fenring and TheDrake

Thanks for the welcome.

I know nothing about US politics other than that which I learn from Fox News and The Late Show with Stephen Colbert so I probably won’t be posting much.

TheDeamon

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2019, 04:59:53 PM »
It's like watching a car wreck.

The UK is going to be economically reamed due to Brexit. Mostly because there are some issues, such as the Irish border, which have absolutely no wiggle room. There is no way out there. There will be no deal.

Funny thing for the EU, it has a certain element of MAD for them, Britain is a major trading partner for them. If they deliberately cause Britain's economy to go under, it's going to take them down with it.

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So we'll be booted and be at the mercy of every other secure country in the world who sees a trade partner desperate for anything. No wonder Trump backs it so much. He's salivating at bending the UK economy over a table.

In many respects, American interests would be better suited by dealing with a less united Europe, as they then have more room to negotiate deals on a nation by nation basis. Without much fear that a deal with Greece is going to have much impact on things involving Germany for example.

In someways the EU simplifies things, as there is only point of contact that matters. But at the same time it creates other different headaches in exchange for that simplification.

That and the US needs the UK to play middle-man for a lot of stuff involving Europe something they've done very well since WW2. We'd like to maintain that status quo, as its reasonably comfortable for us. But we wouldn't object to a weaker EU in many respects, puts them back in the state of being clients, rather than their trying to bill themselves as equals at the table.

TheDrake

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2019, 03:27:05 PM »
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Johnson’s far-from-sunny view of the French has also now been revealed. He thinks they are “turds”, a remark disgracefully pulled from a BBC documentary on the Foreign Office last year because it threatened to derail the Brexit negotiations – what self-respecting news organisation censors its greatest scoop? – but now exposed by the Daily Mail.

Calling the French “turds” for being intransigent on Brexit is a sign of Johnson’s vulgarity and stupidity. As his second-class degree suggests, his is a second-rate mind trying desperately to persuade us it is a first-rate one by using Latin tags and improper jokes. His useless, vapid books are the measure of the man.

Everything that Johnson has ever said about the world is jokey, insensitive, stupid and needlessly provocative. His racism is well-rehearsed. Where does one begin? Perhaps in 2002 when he discussed a visit to Africa by Tony Blair in an article in his mouthpiece, the Daily Telegraph: “What a relief it must be for Blair to get out of England,” he wrote. “It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies.”

One racist allusion was, however, not enough. He went on: “They say he [Blair] is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and their tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird.”

United Kingdom, that's the guy that's about to be in charge of your country. Congrats.

TheDeamon

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2019, 03:52:59 PM »
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Johnson’s far-from-sunny view of the French has also now been revealed. He thinks they are “turds”, a remark disgracefully pulled from a BBC documentary on the Foreign Office last year because it threatened to derail the Brexit negotiations – what self-respecting news organisation censors its greatest scoop? – but now exposed by the Daily Mail.

Calling the French “turds” for being intransigent on Brexit is a sign of Johnson’s vulgarity and stupidity. As his second-class degree suggests, his is a second-rate mind trying desperately to persuade us it is a first-rate one by using Latin tags and improper jokes. His useless, vapid books are the measure of the man.

Everything that Johnson has ever said about the world is jokey, insensitive, stupid and needlessly provocative. His racism is well-rehearsed. Where does one begin? Perhaps in 2002 when he discussed a visit to Africa by Tony Blair in an article in his mouthpiece, the Daily Telegraph: “What a relief it must be for Blair to get out of England,” he wrote. “It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies.”

One racist allusion was, however, not enough. He went on: “They say he [Blair] is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and their tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird.”

United Kingdom, that's the guy that's about to be in charge of your country. Congrats.

 :o ??? :-\

So many turds in the above article, and Johnson isn't the only one.

DJQuag

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2019, 03:05:38 PM »
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Johnson’s far-from-sunny view of the French has also now been revealed. He thinks they are “turds”, a remark disgracefully pulled from a BBC documentary on the Foreign Office last year because it threatened to derail the Brexit negotiations – what self-respecting news organisation censors its greatest scoop? – but now exposed by the Daily Mail.

Calling the French “turds” for being intransigent on Brexit is a sign of Johnson’s vulgarity and stupidity. As his second-class degree suggests, his is a second-rate mind trying desperately to persuade us it is a first-rate one by using Latin tags and improper jokes. His useless, vapid books are the measure of the man.

Everything that Johnson has ever said about the world is jokey, insensitive, stupid and needlessly provocative. His racism is well-rehearsed. Where does one begin? Perhaps in 2002 when he discussed a visit to Africa by Tony Blair in an article in his mouthpiece, the Daily Telegraph: “What a relief it must be for Blair to get out of England,” he wrote. “It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies.”

One racist allusion was, however, not enough. He went on: “They say he [Blair] is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and their tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird.”

United Kingdom, that's the guy that's about to be in charge of your country. Congrats.

As a reminder, I'm a dual citizen.

Yeah, it's pretty bad. But once you have a Tory government you already know that it's going to be bad. The only metric involved is how bad.

The Tories are bound and determined to undermine the UK economy and standard of living by leaving the EU. They're in power. When it comes to May vs Johnson, if you're being favourable to them, it's comparing a doctor trying to save an already dead and gangrenous limb versus one who just says to cut it off.

Also also, Donald Trump is still in power so we're not the worst yet. Am I trying to make a passable meal out of a shti sandwich? You bet I am.

As an aside unlike Trump, who at minimum has a narcissistic personality disorder, Johnson understands his audience and knows they want to vote for someone who thinks like they do. So he acts like an idiot. It's all a show. He's actually quite intelligent and is putting it on in order to continue the Tory quest to import the absolute worst parts of the US system.

Heardred

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2019, 04:50:28 AM »
It’s not compulsory to be a Brexiteer and a Tory. I had a decent job until the Tories privatised the company I worked for and I was out on my ear. The fat cats in the City made a lot of money in the process. To see them suffer I would pay good money to watch but of course they won’t.

I became, like a lot of my workmates, “White Van Man” and it’s them that suffer the effects of free movement of people. They say our Health Service will suffer without free movement but as yet all the Health Care workers I’ve met come from outside the EU.

DJQuag

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2019, 05:10:36 PM »
It’s not compulsory to be a Brexiteer and a Tory. I had a decent job until the Tories privatised the company I worked for and I was out on my ear. The fat cats in the City made a lot of money in the process. To see them suffer I would pay good money to watch but of course they won’t.

I became, like a lot of my workmates, “White Van Man” and it’s them that suffer the effects of free movement of people. They say our Health Service will suffer without free movement but as yet all the Health Care workers I’ve met come from outside the EU.
Agree to disagree, my friend. I've been in and out of hospital a few times these past few years and an obscene amount of nurses and even doctors had Eastern European accents.

Edit -  Yes, I agree . All proper Englishmen hate the Southern fat cats.

DJQuag

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2019, 04:24:02 PM »
https://youtu.be/R-CIggoU4VM

Pretty much how I feel.

TheDrake

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2019, 08:53:25 AM »
As predicted, Johnson is in. I'm sure he'll have that whole brexit thing squared away before Halloween.

DJQuag

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2019, 07:46:25 PM »
As predicted, Johnson is in. I'm sure he'll have that whole brexit thing squared away before Halloween.

An American friend asked me if I was excited about Johnson. Mostly tongue in cheek. I replied that I was excited about him like I'm excited about the strange lump on my testicle I discovered last week. It's a change of pace for sure but the chances of it being positive are really low.

TheDrake

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2019, 07:48:00 PM »
Maybe he'll cede northern Ireland to the republic. Border problem solved.

DJQuag

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2019, 07:54:58 PM »
Maybe he'll cede northern Ireland to the republic. Border problem solved.

Didn't you hear? He's gonna look the EU in the face and tell them Brexit means Brexit. And then they'll cave and Britannia will rule the waves again.

Source: Boris Johnson

D.W.

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2019, 08:24:11 PM »
Other than some chaotic "take back" attempt, I think drawing a line in the sand and letting the EU react may not be the worst thing in the world.  Now, I think Brexit is/was a terrible decision, but a hard date is probably best.  I think the game of chicken is suddenly a lot more credible in their willingness to "crash out". 

We'll see just how generous / willing to play the grownups, the EU is on this mess.  If nothing else this part will be over and the process of cleaning up will begin.

DJQuag

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2019, 09:59:41 PM »
Other than some chaotic "take back" attempt, I think drawing a line in the sand and letting the EU react may not be the worst thing in the world.  Now, I think Brexit is/was a terrible decision, but a hard date is probably best.  I think the game of chicken is suddenly a lot more credible in their willingness to "crash out". 

We'll see just how generous / willing to play the grownups, the EU is on this mess.  If nothing else this part will be over and the process of cleaning up will begin.

I find it interesting that you label a "take it back" vote as chaotic.

The Leave campaign was chock full of flat out lies and deceptions. Even Leaver Jesus Farage said the day after the vote that the campaign's promise of the 350 million a day to the NHS instead of the EU wasn't real.

So. Three years later. After a whole bunch of things revolving around Brexit and the consequences thereof, with the electorate now having a better understanding  of what is actually at stake, why not have another vote?

-spoiler alert. Right wingers oppose another vote because they know the electorate, now being maybe semi literate on the issue, will reject it.

D.W.

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2019, 10:41:29 PM »
So... we get a do over when the public is lied to or uninformed?  Where does THAT work?  :)

I think your assessment is probably right.  So I guess whenever the voters make a bad call you just stall long enough for them to change their mind... 

Wait, that sounds familiar.

Crunch

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2019, 08:20:25 AM »
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spoiler alert. Right wingers oppose another vote because they know the electorate, now being maybe semi literate on the issue, will reject it.

The vote was held. A do over for the losers is not how it works. If they vote again, why would the second one be the “real” vote?  What’s next, 2 out of 3? Gotta have a tie breaker?

TheDrake

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2019, 09:16:39 AM »
That's what it is going to be, hard brexit. Because they had a vote, Ireland will be separated with a hard border, all people currently living under EU soft borders gets deported, and tariffs kick in. I imagine that will be the effective end of the conservative party, so there's a silver lining.

There's one thing we know for certain, there is no better deal with the EU. They aren't going to cut Ireland loose and create a custom border with the mainland.

I'm just glad the United States has no mechanism for a national popular referendum.

D.W.

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2019, 09:18:47 AM »
What Crunch said.
Buyer's remorse is just something you have to deal with.  Or develop B.D.S. I suppose?  :P

The alternative is to send a message to your government that the will of the people can be ignored when they don't like the result.  That sounds even worse to me.  But I don't live there, or need to deal with the fallout...  We're too busy over here fretting about ourselves to to sort out other country's problems  (something we typically enjoy!).  :P

Seriati

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2019, 01:21:07 PM »
I find it interesting that you label a "take it back" vote as chaotic.

The Leave campaign was chock full of flat out lies and deceptions.

Let you in on a secret.  The Remain campaign was chock full of flat out lies and deceptions too.  Not sure why that's a basis for a revote.

What I can also tell you, is no matter whether 75% were leavers, there will never be a single plan for exit that a majority wants to approve.  So yes, if you get your "revote" and the options are stay or follow this specific plan, the results are pre-ordained.  And you've found the technique to pretend to be a Democracy while you are not give the people a "choice" between a specific implementation and a vague policy and the vague wins every time.

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So. Three years later. After a whole bunch of things revolving around Brexit and the consequences thereof, with the electorate now having a better understanding  of what is actually at stake, why not have another vote?

Remind me, how many votes did you take to join the EU?

NobleHunter

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2019, 03:07:39 PM »
Let you in on a secret.  The Remain campaign was chock full of flat out lies and deceptions too.  Not sure why that's a basis for a revote.

What I can also tell you, is no matter whether 75% were leavers, there will never be a single plan for exit that a majority wants to approve.  So yes, if you get your "revote" and the options are stay or follow this specific plan, the results are pre-ordained.  And you've found the technique to pretend to be a Democracy while you are not give the people a "choice" between a specific implementation and a vague policy and the vague wins every time.

So what were the Remain lies? Anything to match the claimed 350 million?

So make the revote on a specific plans, be it hard Brexit or the deal as currently offered. I think pro-Leave people argue against another referendum because they know between Hard Brexit, soft Brexit, and Remain, Remain has the plurality by a wide margin. Parliament's inability to come to a deal reflects the uncertainty of the electorate.

TheDrake

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2019, 10:32:24 AM »
Here's a fun twist. Trump administration declared support for a no-deal Brexit and promised fast track trade deals. It seems they forgot that trade deals have to go through Congress, and Pelosi has stated there will be no UK trade deal if the Good Friday Agreement is undermined. Bolton had stated that there would be enthusiastic bipartisan support for speedy ratification.

Oops.

Seriati

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2019, 10:48:50 AM »
Lol, sure.  Pelosi says that, let's see her actually take the consequences of rejecting a trade deal with UK.  I'm sure that'll play well in the states the Democrats need to carry.

It just sounds like bluster to me.  I mean heck, the Senate sent a letter to Iran telling them specifically that Obama didn't have the authority to enter into the Iran agreement and he did it anyway, and made it stick through his term.  Love to see the Democrats trying to hammer the UK as a punishment on trade.

TheDrake

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2019, 11:00:46 AM »
It might easily be politically calculated bluster, taking advantage of Bolton's incautious phrasing. Usually somebody would say, "We'll work with our colleagues in Congress to ensure the fastest possible approval for these deals." That leaves an out that Bolton didn't leave by making an unequivocal statement that was probably not vetted out, unless Pelosi and friends did privately tell the adminstration that they were all for the no-deal Brexit and then flipped publicly. I tend to doubt that, however.

It does play well to Irish Americans, most likely. To the world stage it obviously plays well to the EU.

As to what actually happens? Who knows. It would depend on potential terms and all of that.

As to why the US might prefer a no-deal Brexit and fast trade deals, lots of leverage if the UK is getting hit with EU tariffs and scrambling for a lifeline.

D.W.

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2019, 11:05:13 AM »
Hold up, wouldn't our Deal-maker in chief want them in a vulnerable negotiating position?  Convince them to race forward and crash out, then get them to agree to whatever you are willing to give because they need a lifeline (politically if not economically) to show Brexit wasn't a huge mistake?

Seriati

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Re: Race for the least desirable job
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2019, 12:56:35 PM »
Hold up, wouldn't our Deal-maker in chief want them in a vulnerable negotiating position?  Convince them to race forward and crash out, then get them to agree to whatever you are willing to give because they need a lifeline (politically if not economically) to show Brexit wasn't a huge mistake?

Not really, a savvy deal maker isn't the same as a vulture.  Trump's history seems to me to imply he's looking for long term partners not one off scams.

In any event, support of the independent UK is about undermining EU bargaining power at least as much as it's about cutting a deal with the UK.