Personal awareness of data gathering

[TheDrake]

Even as a tech savvy individual, I sometimes fail to notice when people are gathering data. Amazon is working up to Prime Day this week, and they are having instant giveaways and other fun things. I had clicked on several of these before it fully dawned on me the information I was giving up.

They've crafted the promotion such that there are LOTS of items that can be clicked - about 60 if I'm counting correctly. Some of them require you to watch a video, some just to click a couple of times. If you are a die hard, maybe you'd click that many. More likely you only click on the things you might want, and this clearly is giving information about potential purchases.

Now, I'm not really bothered that Amazon is collecting information on what I want to buy, it only benefits me for them to know what I like. But it does make me wonder how many other times I am giving up information without really being cognizant of it.

Obviously, we know about the behind the scenes browser trackings, gps data and such, but I'm wondering about the times when we are active participants. Like the "Which Game of Thrones character are You" quizzes.

[D.W.]

All the things.  You've given up all the things... 
Privacy is something you must claw back inch at a time.  The default mode is none.

[Seriati]

Now, I'm not really bothered that Amazon is collecting information on what I want to buy, it only benefits me for them to know what I like.

I have to wonder why you believe this claim?  In what way does giving up information to Amazon, that they will then commoditize and sell actually benefit you?  The new gold standard for client lists isn't credit worthiness it's effectively willing to buy from targeted solicitations and they track that and compile that and increasingly sell it to commercial (and even more disturbingly, non-commercial groups).  It's kind of like how con artists like to target the elderly.

[D.W.]

I still game with some friends and made a D&D character about 2 years ago that was good at climbing rock walls. 

I still to this day get banner adds for climbing hooks and other gear thanks to some google searching back then. 

IRL... ain't never gonna find me climbing down or up a cliff recreationally!  haha

[TheDrake]

Now, I'm not really bothered that Amazon is collecting information on what I want to buy, it only benefits me for them to know what I like.

I have to wonder why you believe this claim?  In what way does giving up information to Amazon, that they will then commoditize and sell actually benefit you?  The new gold standard for client lists isn't credit worthiness it's effectively willing to buy from targeted solicitations and they track that and compile that and increasingly sell it to commercial (and even more disturbingly, non-commercial groups).  It's kind of like how con artists like to target the elderly.

They show me ads that are aligned with what I like, rather than random garbage. The people they sell my data to are doing the same. Perhaps they sell that data to a political group, who then solicits a donation. If they target me right, I'll be happy that I learned about them. If not, I ignore it.

It's really more like rent the data than sell it, for most intents and purposes.

Assuming that the data doesn't get hacked, which is a legitimate fear but far less of a concern than the more sensitive data that gets stolen from credit reporting agencies, I have a hard time picturing how it could be to my detriment.

EFF is one of the biggest articulate voice on the matter.

Their treatment on Amazon runs all over the board, but very little of it really bothers me. Note that Amazon not only knows information on what I might want to buy, and I'm aware of that. It knows what time I get up in the morning, because I use Alexa to set my alarms. Nest knows what time I get home because it senses my presence and changes the thermostat.

The part I'm missing is the ...and then X happens to you. What is in the X that I should be worried about? I don't care about privacy for the sake of privacy, but rather some detrimental outcome. At worst, I'm gaining and losing nothing, as far as I can tell.

Note that this is about me personally. I can think of a lot of people for whom this can be a big deal, including elderly, mentally ill, impulsive shoppers, compulsive gamblers, teens, celebrities, prominent business leaders, criminals, etc.

[Seriati]

I still game with some friends and made a D&D character about 2 years ago that was good at climbing rock walls. 

I still to this day get banner adds for climbing hooks and other gear thanks to some google searching back then. 

IRL... ain't never gonna find me climbing down or up a cliff recreationally!  haha

Sounds innocuous right?  Now do you realize that more than likely any life insurance rate you'd actually receive will be higher because that's in your commercial profile?  Heck you may have been denied options without ever seeing them.

[rightleft22]

They show me ads that are aligned with what I like, rather than random garbage

If we are only shown what we like wouldn't that impact our ability to grow. Learning to sort through the random is a import skill required for discernment.
Consciousnesses arises as we confront the problem of opposites. 

[TheDrake]

They show me ads that are aligned with what I like, rather than random garbage

If we are only shown what we like wouldn't that impact our ability to grow. Learning to sort through the random is a import skill required for discernment.
Consciousnesses arises as we confront the problem of opposites.

Certainly not ads, they don't help me grow. Content? I'll accept having stuff I don't like filtered out of main feeds, I can seek variety fine in a number of other ways. If your only source of information is what shows up on your Twitter and Facebook, you have more serious problems to deal with.

[D.W.]

BINGO Seriati.  I don't find it innocuous at all.  I hope the EU paves the way.  They are a bit more hawkish on internet data rights and a big enough market that we'll be dragged along in their wake eventually.  Our own lawmakers are either impotent or ignorant (or too personally invested) to do anything here.

[TheDrake]

Sounds innocuous right?  Now do you realize that more than likely any life insurance rate you'd actually receive will be higher because that's in your commercial profile?  Heck you may have been denied options without ever seeing them.

For the sake of argument, lets stipulate that the data is keyed by individual even though there is no public information suggesting that somebody can query by name, birthdate, or other specific identifying information. And that it is specifically a violation of privacy agreements that claim data is collated and anonymized.

Would this really be a bad thing, if insurance underwriting were made more accurate? Shouldn't the habitual drinker with two DUIs pay a higher rate? Shouldn't the guy in fantastic shape get a discount? It might make for a worse outcome for person A, but it isn't really so unfair is it?

In DWs case, I'd suggest that life insurance companies would probably value the fitness over the accident risk, but the general point stands. 

[Seriati]

TheDrake, what does this have to do with public access?

There are already data compilers out there that claim they can or actually can build an individual profile on a specific person just by crossing enough commercially available data sets.  Including, identifying your address, where you like to shop, how often you head to a bar.  Maybe we're just thinking about different things.

I mean most of us carrying a smart phone are actually giving up detailed location data to multiple platforms every second of every day.  They don't even have to sell that raw to use it to create abuses.

[D.W.]

Next you'll have people tracking what porn you watch to determine if you are prone to "risky behavior" and raise your health insurance rates as well. 

And that doesn't get into the realm of false positives I was trying to illustrate.

[TheDrake]

There are already data compilers out there that claim they can or actually can build an individual profile on a specific person just by crossing enough commercially available data sets.  Including, identifying your address, where you like to shop, how often you head to a bar.  Maybe we're just thinking about different things.

Yeah, I saw the NYT report. Include here the part I can get to.

An app on the device gathered her location information, which was then sold without her knowledge. It recorded her whereabouts as often as every two seconds, according to a database of more than a million phones in the New York area that was reviewed by The New York Times. While Ms. Magrin’s identity was not disclosed in those records, The Times was able to easily connect her to that dot.

The app tracked her as she went to a Weight Watchers meeting and to her dermatologist’s office for a minor procedure. It followed her hiking with her dog and staying at her ex-boyfriend’s home, information she found disturbing.

“It’s the thought of people finding out those intimate details that you don’t want people to know,” said Ms. Magrin, who allowed The Times to review her location data.

So she finds it disturbing. But even if someone got hold of it, what would that commerical entity do with it? Try to sell her weight loss products by mailing her offers? Skin care products?

Again, different story if you're being stalked or have enemies. Then maybe you want to set your google account to not store data. If you're not that trusting, you can turn off GPS, but you'll have to go back to paper maps.

Are there hypotheticals out there? Absolutely. My employer could conceivably buy that data, cross reference my home address, and mine the data to determine how many hours I'm putting in. I don't picture them doing that, and frankly if they are and they give me a low performance review based on being in the office less than others, I'd hit the road.

Again, to be clear, I'm not saying that nobody has to worry about this. I'm saying I don't.

Oh, and what I am worried about is companies being barred from collecting that data, so now all the features enabled by that gathering get nerfed or eliminated. And I really like those features. I like that Android auto puts up a list of my most frequently visited places with travel times. I like that it reads my email and makes calendar entries. I like that it can autocomplete my frequently visited sites.

I'd be willing to accept a regulatory shift to force users to opt-in, but lets face it, the opt-in method for apps and permissions is largely ignored by the vast majority of users. They don't stop to think about what it means for Instagram to have access to your camera and location and message content.

[Seriati]

The app tracked her as she went to a Weight Watchers meeting and to her dermatologist’s office for a minor procedure. It followed her hiking with her dog and staying at her ex-boyfriend’s home, information she found disturbing.

Staying at the ex-boyfriend's is a specific detail that could have massive personal consequences in the hand of a PI or a jealous current boyfriend. 

Again, different story if you're being stalked or have enemies. Then maybe you want to set your google account to not store data. If you're not that trusting, you can turn off GPS, but you'll have to go back to paper maps.

By the way, I saw a study where they ran data transmitted by phones that there were carried together, where one had it's options shut down to the maximum through  linux machines on output, and none of that actually stopped the specific location data of the phone from being recorded and transmitted.  In fact, they found that the phone that was "off" actually transmitted more.

Are there hypotheticals out there? Absolutely. My employer could conceivably buy that data, cross reference my home address, and mine the data to determine how many hours I'm putting in. I don't picture them doing that, and frankly if they are and they give me a low performance review based on being in the office less than others, I'd hit the road.

Already doing that, except they don't buy the data they buy the service.  It monitors employee locations, identifies slackers, identifies those that are interviewing (and who they are interviewing with).  Whether your employer uses it or not, it'll be standard within some period of time.

Again, to be clear, I'm not saying that nobody has to worry about this. I'm saying I don't.

Okay, we'll talk again in a few years then.

I like that it reads my email and makes calendar entries.

That is so creepy.

[TheDrake]

one had it's options shut down to the maximum through  linux machines on output

Eh? I assume you meant minimum, but I have no idea how a linux machine is involved with phones. Naturally any phone transmits location data just to maintain the 4G network. I assume you mean something else.

[cherrypoptart]

Just saw this Safe 2 Save app at McDonald's, a little flyer on the counter where you order, and I was weighing the pros and cons of it, exactly what y'all are discussing as far as privacy versus rewards. I assume they'll probably be able to GPS track me but as with TheDrake I don't really care. Maybe it'll even come in handy like if I'm a crime victim or drive off the road into the woods so my phone's last location is easier to find. And in any case I'm not doing anything I worry about anyone knowing about. I'm the guy who has nothing to hide so has nothing to fear. I can understand the part about nefarious organizations hacking into personal information but I suppose until it happens and I become the victim of identity theft I won't let it stop me from saving money right now with rewards. My Chick-Fil-A app has already gotten me at least fifty bucks in free sandwiches with the rewards and surveys, and other apps also save me a lot of money with digital coupons on the stuff I'm going to order anyway. My son likes the Jack in the Box spicy chicken sandwich, two of them, so if you order in the drive-thru it's over ten bucks but if you park in front of the store, get on their wi-fi and order through the app you can get them 2 for $5 but you have to pay by credit card in advance and of course they will track all your purchases more easily. Privacy for money. So far I've saved a lot of money and I don't really feel that worried about the privacy angle. They have a throw away email address I use for all of these apps. I see immediate gain but don't see the harm yet.

I don't look at my cell phone while I'm driving so I got that Safe 2 Save app and will see if it's going to give me some good freebies. I liked this part. "Step 1  Open the App
Upload a picture of loved ones to remind you that distracted driving is not worth it." I don't use Facebook or have any of my pics uploaded and tell all my family not to put me on Facebook. It's even gone so far that I don't let them take pictures of me with their cell phones. I tell them we'll just use this old digital camera. Sometimes they get a little mad but that's just the way it is. That part is more because of my wife's policy than the one I'd have if I were in charge but I suppose in that sense I do have some digital privacy concerns and some big limits on how much I'll put out there. So for this picture for the app I wondered what should I do so I took a picture of a baby in the photo frame section as I was walking through Walmart. That did the trick for me but their request did make me wonder about how they might be using this app as far as digital privacy goes for people who are taking pictures of their loved ones. Maybe it's just a reminder as they say or could they be using it some other way? Not sure. I do wonder what's their angle though. I drive a lot so if I'm getting rewards based on miles that is going to add up fast and I wonder what they're getting out of it, like perhaps my driving habits, routes, where I shop, etc. It's interesting how far companies seem willing to go, like with Amazon, to basically pay you quite a bit to give up your privacy. When it's real money right in your pocket it almost seems worth it.

[TheDrake]

I think it's funny that the racist vandal high school kids got caught cause their phones identified them on the school wifi.

[rightleft22]

My nieces and nephews aren’t concerned with privacy so I and imagine the day where no one thinks much about it. I suspect it will be like ‘slowly boiling a frog’.

Is scary though, how little information is required to develop a profile that can pretty accurately predict a persons future.

[TheDrake]

I just installed an Alexa skill that links to my health app that does weight tracking. So now Amazon, potential employers, and insurance companies will know I'm fat. 

[TheDrake]

Okay, perfect example of why I love google to own all my info. I'm travelling to Boston with a friend of mine, and I remembered that a couple of years ago I went to an awesome little Italian place in the North End, but I couldn't remember the name, and a regular search is no good, because there are literally 3-4 italian restaurants per block on Hanover street.

Google maps | Timeline. Little red marks everywhere I've ever been. Zoom in to the North End, click. Now I've found the dates I was in Boston, which I also didn't remember. Found the right day when I walked up to that neighborhood, zoomed in, saw three candidates. Went to each website and spotted the right one by matching photos.

There is absolutely no way I would have found that place again if Google didn't have an infinite history of every place any of my phones has ever been.

In case you're wondering, it's Ristorante Saraceno.

If you have the option, get them to bring you to the rooftop room. You will take a long meandering journey through three levels of dining rooms, I think maybe walking through a kitchen, and then up a spiral staircase. It was terrifying, wondering where they were leading us, but well worth the journey.

[D.W.]

 

I'll just fumble around and find a new place to eat...  thanks anyway Google. 

[Crunch]

Okay, perfect example of why I love google to own all my info.

Didn’t need to read any further than this. It’s like you need to be spoonfed. I get it, there’s a lot like that, can’t manage their lives or the details. It’s not that you’re different but it’s a good example of modern life. Not having to actually know things, not even about yourself, it’s how many stumble through life now.

[TheDrake]

I don't need to be, I prefer it. Just like I stopped using fold up paper maps like some kind of caveman. It's sad you can't take advantage of the acceleration technology gives us. I'm guessing you're still keeping your contact information in a spiral notebook, Crunchy.

[TheDrake]

I'll just fumble around and find a new place to eat...  thanks anyway Google.

I don't think you're appreciating how truly great this restaurant is.

I don't want to find a new place to eat, I want to bring a friend to experience that one.

[D.W.]

The whole Equifax spewing my personal data out into the wild, when I never even had business dealing with them, thing made my already cranky levels of rejection of personal data practices down right aggressive.  I cannot even stand the idea of a rewards card at a sandwich shop or pharmacy now. 

Glad it's working out for you though. 

[TheDrake]

Let me guess, you also pay in cash, never buy through mail order, and use a VPN to access the internet. 

[D.W.]

My bank is kinda lame when it comes to ATM locations, so I do use my credit card.    Only had to have them reissue it... twice I think due to fraud. 

The mail-order thing is something I really should do more, but more often than not if it CAN be bought locally I do so.  But enough of it can't so I do use Amazon and BestBuy a lot. 

The VPN... I've been tempted but apathy wins out over paranoia.   

... so far


I fully understand I'm turning into the modern day equivalent of "Get off my lawn!" as it pertains to privacy.

[cherrypoptart]

Remember Radio Shack and how they interrogated everyone for their phone numbers and addresses even when all you wanted was to buy a battery with cash? They'd never just sell all of your information though would they? Well, yeah, they did exactly that in their bankruptcy. Sold it all and didn't care what the buyer did with it either.

[TheDrake]

Heh, my address is a matter of public record. You might be nauseated if you go to mylife.com. It lists your name, close family, social media accounts, court documents, and lots of other info. My favorite part, is the admonishment I WILL NOT use this information to stalk anyone. Riiight. Because somebody willing to stalk someone is going to respect your TOS. There's also a checkbox that says you will not use this information to make decisions about employment, insurance, housing, or credit. Comforting.

I took their 7 day trial to see what they had on me. It knows my DOB, correctly identified my mother, brother, and spouse. It knows that I am single. It knows my address, two of my email addresses (but not the one that I use strictly for business purposes). It knows that I am on facebook. It thinks that the person who used to own my house is my neighbor.

Found out my brother wrote bad checks at least three times, and so did his wife.