Author Topic: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?  (Read 29764 times)

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #100 on: December 17, 2019, 10:40:55 AM »
From one of my favorite UK twitter follows, Titania McGrath:

"In order to revitalise the Labour Party, we’re going to have to win over the hearts and minds of all those fascist racist misogynist working-class gammons who were too stupid to vote the correct way last time."
Deep, very deep, so chortle away.  Corbyn was a poor leader with a disjointed and ineffectual platform.  Labour will have to regroup around a different leader and more coherent platform.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #101 on: December 17, 2019, 10:42:28 AM »
Kassandra, you shouldn’t go saying he violated the unwritten constitution if you don’t even know what the unwritten constitution is, or people will call you Jefe.
There's only one 's' in my name.  You don't think the Scottish Supreme Court called what he did a violation of the unwritten Constitution?   

Lady Hale said,

"The decision to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament was unlawful because it had the effect of frustrating or preventing the ability of Parliament to carry out its constitutional functions without reasonable justification."

[snip]

Sigh. If you are going to cite authority for a conclusion of law,you need to reference it or people are going to think you pulled the opinion out of your gigantic tinfoil hat.
I'm not a lawyer, so referencing the head of the Scottish Supreme Court seemed like enough authority for me. 

Don't be dishonest.  You didn't mention her until I asked for specifics.  You should have referenced her in your original claim that Mojo BoJo violated the unwritten constitution.
This isn't a classroom.  We don't have to show our work when we offer an opinion.  I was disappointed that you weren't able to come up with that on your own.

Pete at Home

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #102 on: December 17, 2019, 10:48:29 AM »
Kassandra, you shouldn’t go saying he violated the unwritten constitution if you don’t even know what the unwritten constitution is, or people will call you Jefe.
There's only one 's' in my name.  You don't think the Scottish Supreme Court called what he did a violation of the unwritten Constitution?   

Lady Hale said,

"The decision to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament was unlawful because it had the effect of frustrating or preventing the ability of Parliament to carry out its constitutional functions without reasonable justification."

[snip]

Sigh. If you are going to cite authority for a conclusion of law,you need to reference it or people are going to think you pulled the opinion out of your gigantic tinfoil hat.
I'm not a lawyer, so referencing the head of the Scottish Supreme Court seemed like enough authority for me. 

Don't be dishonest.  You didn't mention her until I asked for specifics.  You should have referenced her in your original claim that Mojo BoJo violated the unwritten constitution.
This isn't a classroom. We don't have to show our work when we offer an opinion.  I was disappointed that you weren't able to come up with that on your own.

Kind of hypocritical for you to add that pedantic "disappointed" line after you whined that this "isn't a classroom," and repeatedly complained about a minor spelling error (ss instead of s).

Unlike you I don't come up with facts "on my own."  Like civilized discursants, I use specific references to search for information.  And until you mentioned the Scottish Supreme Court, you'd given nothing to go on. 

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We don't have to show our work when we offer an opinion.

Quite true.  I thought you were asserting a legal conclusion when you said that BoJo had violated the constitution.  If you'd said that in your opinion, BoJo had violated the constitution, then I'd not have responded; I'd have said to myself, there she goes again.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 11:00:29 AM by Pete at Home »

NobleHunter

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #103 on: December 17, 2019, 10:55:37 AM »
Anyone else having forum flashbacks?

Pete at Home

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #104 on: December 17, 2019, 11:02:17 AM »
Anyone else having forum flashbacks?

Aye.  It's very hard to call her by her new name since her antics are patented under her old name.  When I start doing my antics under a different name, I get suspended.  Lady's privilege, I suppose.

Pete at Home

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2019, 11:17:40 AM »
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   I was disappointed that you weren't able to come up with that on your own

You’re not my real mama!

Fenring

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #106 on: December 17, 2019, 11:21:18 AM »
Anyone else having forum flashbacks?

Aye.  It's very hard to call her by her new name since her antics are patented under her old name.  When I start doing my antics under a different name, I get suspended.  Lady's privilege, I suppose.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought she was a he. Or is this a pronoun thing?

Pete at Home

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #107 on: December 17, 2019, 11:33:27 AM »

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought she was a he. Or is this a pronoun thing?

Does Kasandra have a preferred pronoun?

Seriati

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #108 on: December 17, 2019, 12:26:30 PM »
Aye.  It's very hard to call her by her new name since her antics are patented under her old name.  When I start doing my antics under a different name, I get suspended.  Lady's privilege, I suppose.

To be fair, I don't think it's ever been accepted to use 2 names at the same time, particularly if you start conversing with yourself.

I was struck by how much of the quote you shared but didn't highlight turned out to not have been accurate:

Here's Kasandra's referenced argument.  Note the total absence of any reference to support Kasandra's conclusion of law wrapped in a motive inference:

Johnson is doing his best to undermine Britain's unwritten constitution and treat his opposition in Parliament is if it is a nuisance rather than a majority.  It's clear that Johnson is a bully like Trump, but unlike Trump he has no mandate or even an identified constituency.

I'd say that the take away from the election is that he does have an identifiable constituency and a mandate, and that was made clear in spite of him being unlikable by a large number of people.  In fact, I think it's striking that the former "majority" of Parliament (even though it really wasn't) is who did not have a true mandate in their pattern of ceaseless obstruction.

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He's trying to force his will onto people who truly are confused and his coercion isn't galvanizing people to follow his lead.  If anything, he's racking up opponents who simply don't trust anything he says.
]

This only makes sense if you're referring to MPs, if you actually mean the people who elected them it looks like they knew more about what they wanted than their MPs were willing to listen too.   The EU's problem has always been an arrogance of its elites believing they knew what was good for the "commoners" better than the commoners.  Taking seats away from Labour that have been held by Labour for decades (in at least one case since the seat was formed), kind of emphasizes that whether you think they should or not, it's the people that get to dictate the political authority not the politicians. 

And I grant, it's very odd for the Conservatives to be making inroads with working stiffs in the UK, it'll be interesting to see if they deliver.  There is an odd parallel to Trump there, with his express, intentional policies of delivering economic results to working class and minorities that have been promised things by the left for years that were never delivered.

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That's another point of comparison with Trump, whose US constituency is eroding bit by bit with every dishonest, insincere, manipulative and self-aggrandizing tweet he issues.

I guess it remains to be seen with Trump (though it seems unlikely that there is an "erosion" given his absolutely stable approval numbers), but it's clear this was not the case with Boris. 

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The only reasonable expectation for the UK is that the Brexit process will continue to get worse and nobody knows how to make it get any better.  RIP as night falls on the Empire of the Sun.

Or one could look at it and say that the Brexit process was mostly terrible because of the uncertainty involved, largely as a result of the delay and resist at all costs position of the opposition, and that doing it any way was better than the uncertainty.  It remains to be seen if Boris's way will make it better, but it does at least wipe away the uncertainty.

I'm totally fascinated by the utter conviction that those predicting economic disaster have.  They have no basis for it, often the "consequences" they foresee have already been foreseen by others, and planned for, and the assertions of what will happen are always the worst case view.  There's a lot of uncertainty and possibility here, but little reason to think it's going to all go negative when you have an populace that's still actively interested in working to make their lives better. 

It's in the US and the Chinese interests to give the UK a good deal, and to give the EU a good deal, maybe even to polarize them.  But little chance that having the two largest economic powers interested in and excited about new opportunities is going to push the global economy down.  But who really knows.

TheDrake

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #109 on: December 17, 2019, 12:49:55 PM »
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There is an odd parallel to Trump there, with his express, intentional policies of delivering economic results to working class and minorities that have been promised things by the left for years that were never delivered.

Which policies? Giant tax breaks to mega corporations? Ill advised trade wars offset by massive subsidies?

Now, mind you, I categorically deny that any president can move the economy through policy, and if things go south I will largely avoid blaming Trump unless the move can be directly tied to an action he took.

Fenring

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #110 on: December 17, 2019, 01:09:55 PM »
Now, mind you, I categorically deny that any president can move the economy through policy, and if things go south I will largely avoid blaming Trump unless the move can be directly tied to an action he took.

In terms of short-term ups and downs you are probably right. But it would seem far-fetched to deny that participating in agreements such as NAFTA and the trade agreements with Asian countries has significant effects on the economy. And these are surely agreements that can largely be chalked up, if not to the President's initiative, at least to the President's consent. Consider the recently-destroyed TPP that the elites kept trying to push through: that wouldn't have massively affected the economy? And that was a high-level initiate, definitely involving the President, to the point where the POTUS' participation would have easily been enough to make or break it for all countries involved.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2019, 01:10:48 PM »

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought she was a he. Or is this a pronoun thing?

Does Kasandra have a preferred pronoun?
IRL, yes.  However, if you feel more deferential toward one or another, feel free to think of me that way.  We're all shadows, anyway.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #112 on: December 17, 2019, 01:22:36 PM »
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There is an odd parallel to Trump there, with his express, intentional policies of delivering economic results to working class and minorities that have been promised things by the left for years that were never delivered.
Yet another driveby derogation of "the left".  Name one policy that Trump has implemented that "delivers economic results" to those groups.   How about:

Healthcare (it would be easy -- not!)?
Education (Screw people expecting loan forgiveness)?
Tax reform (if you're a rich worker or corporation)? 
Trade tariffs (farm bankruptcies highest since 2011)? 
Payroll protections (rollbacks of pay protection guarantees, anti-union policies, mandatory arbitration)? 
Retirement savings (rescinding rules forcing investors to work in the best interests of their clients)? 
...

Whew, my typing arm is getting tired!

ScottF

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #113 on: December 17, 2019, 02:21:48 PM »
Yet another driveby derogation of "the left".  Name one policy that Trump has implemented that "delivers economic results" to those groups.   How about:

Healthcare (it would be easy -- not!)?
Education (Screw people expecting loan forgiveness)?
Tax reform (if you're a rich worker or corporation)? 
Trade tariffs (farm bankruptcies highest since 2011)? 
Payroll protections (rollbacks of pay protection guarantees, anti-union policies, mandatory arbitration)? 
Retirement savings (rescinding rules forcing investors to work in the best interests of their clients)? 
...

Whew, my typing arm is getting tired!

Dang, now you're making me wonder just how amazing the economy, unemployment and rising wages would be if we had someone who actually knew what they were doing.

TheDeamon

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #114 on: December 17, 2019, 03:09:57 PM »
...Which isn't anybody running for President in 2020.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #115 on: December 17, 2019, 04:22:05 PM »
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Dang, now you're making me wonder just how amazing the economy, unemployment and rising wages would be if we had someone who actually knew what they were doing.
Try to focus on what those items are really saying.  If you need help, pick one and I'll explain it to you.  First, tell me what state you live in.

Ouija Nightmare

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #116 on: December 17, 2019, 04:43:44 PM »
Yet another driveby derogation of "the left".  Name one policy that Trump has implemented that "delivers economic results" to those groups.   How about:

Healthcare (it would be easy -- not!)?
Education (Screw people expecting loan forgiveness)?
Tax reform (if you're a rich worker or corporation)? 
Trade tariffs (farm bankruptcies highest since 2011)? 
Payroll protections (rollbacks of pay protection guarantees, anti-union policies, mandatory arbitration)? 
Retirement savings (rescinding rules forcing investors to work in the best interests of their clients)? 
...

Whew, my typing arm is getting tired!

Dang, now you're making me wonder just how amazing the economy, unemployment and rising wages would be if we had someone who actually knew what they were doing.

I’d be more impressed if it were not coupled with runaway deficit spending as if we were in a recession.

Ahh the good old days when patriotic duty started with paying your damn taxes.

Seriati

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #117 on: December 17, 2019, 05:12:03 PM »
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There is an odd parallel to Trump there, with his express, intentional policies of delivering economic results to working class and minorities that have been promised things by the left for years that were never delivered.
Yet another driveby derogation of "the left".  Name one policy that Trump has implemented that "delivers economic results" to those groups.

Sure, tax relief, focus on returning American jobs, which increased both manufacturing jobs and all jobs generally, focus on freeing American ingenuity to operate.  There's a reason unemployment is historically low and inflation hasn't jumped through the roof.  There's a reason every minority group is at record low unemployment.  There's a reason that real wage growth is occuring and that the poor are seeing improvements in their situations.  It isn't decades of unfulfilled Democratic promises on handouts.

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How about:

Healthcare (it would be easy -- not!)?

What has Trump done to harm Healthcare?  Seriously.  This is near impossible to fix.  There is absolutely no will to fix it.  Lie to yourself all you want the Dems won't agree to any fix, whether it works or not, unless it gets more healthcare under government control and makes more people dependent on hand outs.  It's just a simple truth, they've been buying votes for so long they see anything that actually works to make people independent as a threat to their own power.
 
And this is 100% reflected in the Dem candidate's announced policies, very heavy on the hand outs, and no sense whatsoever when it comes to paying for it, heck a lot of them just lie about the impact on the middle class and poor.  You know I don't trust economist's predictions, but I saw an article saying that the market should expect a 10% negative contraction if Warren is elected.  Talk about misery.

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Education (Screw people expecting loan forgiveness)?

School choice.  The left only opposes it because the teacher's union owns them, even though it hurts their own minority constituents.  You'll note too how rarely the affluent left lets their children be harmed by public schools.  They always live in school districts with good teacher, and even then send their kids to private schools, yet they oppose school choice?  They get it themselves by moving, and then lecture those who don't have the economic means to use that option themselves and have kids stuck in and harmed by failing schools.

As for loan forgiveness, it's a garbage solution to a garbage problem the left created.  Every time the left authorized more loan guaranties to ensure that everyone could "afford" a college education, and to ensure a steady flow of guaranteed government money to the schools, the schools reacted by raising their tuitions and hiring more and more administrators.    Not one of those programs held those schools accountable for the lack of success of their students.  Now that they've created a monster (and they were behind the loan guarantees and bankruptcy protection to ensure that lenders would enter into the market without consideration for the qualification of the student - how else does a student get $250k in loans to major in basket weaving).  The "only" solution of course is to take it over with more government, free college, and government paying for all the loans.  More free stuff, promised if you elect the Dems, paid for by someone else (really we promise, someone else, just don't actually think about he economics - oh wait, you're not going to major in that anyway).

Can't allow any correction in the higher education market since it's totally controlled by the left, and supports massive and bloated amounts of reliable blue voters.
 
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Tax reform (if you're a rich worker or corporation)?

Tax reform delivered benefits to everyone in the lower 80% and only some of those in the upper 20%.   Corporate tax reforms has brought massive amounts of equity capital back into the country, boosting the economy and created massive job growth - exactly what the left always claims that government spending will do (but that it fails to do as effectively).
 
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Trade tariffs (farm bankruptcies highest since 2011)?

Leading to improvements in trade deals and resurgence in jobs in American industries the left declared were gone for ever.
 
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Payroll protections (rollbacks of pay protection guarantees, anti-union policies, mandatory arbitration)?

Not sure what you're referring to here, but at least for unions the correction was long over due.  The left hasn't been out of the union pockets in my life time and it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that most every policy they push has a thumb on the scale in what should be a balanced equation.
 
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Retirement savings (rescinding rules forcing investors to work in the best interests of their clients)?

That's just a gross mischaracterization.  Just because someone puts "best interest" in the name of a rule doesn't mean that's what it actually does.  Go to any registered investment adviser and they are required to treat you as a fiduciary with your interests ahead of theirs.  Go to a broker and they are only required to determine if a product is suitable before they can sell it to you.  Pick the person you need.
 
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Whew, my typing arm is getting tired!

I don't believe that.  Again, despite the failed promises of the left, it's Trump that's bringing real wage growth, real job opportunities, prison reform, and renewed focus on improving the impoverished places where the poor live (opportunity zone legislation).  Maybe talk to some people in that demographic, they are much more optimistic than they were under the previous administration.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #118 on: December 18, 2019, 08:34:39 AM »
Seriati, your writing arm never seems to tire.  I want to respond (as briefly as possible, but not moreso) to each of your points, which I will do later today, but I'll make a general comment now.  Virtually everything Trump does is transactional and aims for short-term results at the expense of long-term benefits, despite his great claims to the contrary (6% GDP growth, anybody?).  Many of those things actually will end up costing vastly more later than is saved or generated now.  Some highlights that affect all Americans except the most wealthy...

He has weakened public support for health care rather than reformed or strengthened it, done nothing for infrastructure despite great claims, lowered taxes mostly for the very wealthy who buy assets rather than add jobs, cut programs or reduced benefits across the federal system and still added more to the national debt than any President in history, created tariffs on imported goods that raised costs for importers and consumers, leading to reduced foreign exports due to retaliatory tariffs, which together have increased the trade deficit.

If you want to give him credit, you have to acknowledge that many of the positive trends seen over the past two years are continuations of trends that began under Obama.  But you won't, of course.

Crunch

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #119 on: December 18, 2019, 10:23:25 AM »
We have to acknowledge that, after a recession, jobs and economic numbers bounce back. That’s like taking credit for the sunrise.

It was the Bush economy for 8 years. We were supposed to get used to it, that was the new normal. Now that Trump policies are delivering the best economy in America history, you’re gonna claim we’re finally seeing the Obama economy. Remember when electing Trump was going to destroy the economy? The stock market was gonna crash! Everything was gonna fail. Obama said Trump would need a magic wand to do this!  Remember all that bull*censored*? Now that you’re proven wrong, you just keep going as if none of that ever happened.

Inevitably, economic expansions will stop and we’ll get some contraction. At that point, you’ll insist it’s the Trump economy, won’t you? That’s like predicting sunset.

Ouija Nightmare

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #120 on: December 18, 2019, 10:56:26 AM »
We have to acknowledge that, after a recession, jobs and economic numbers bounce back. That’s like taking credit for the sunrise.


This isn’t true. Things don’t always better. China was the greatest empire for ages ...then declined for generations. People are going to be waiting a long time for the Roman Empire to come back.

The current Republic is showing signs that it’s time as a Democracy is at an end.

There isn’t some natural order that always results in improvement.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #121 on: December 18, 2019, 11:03:42 AM »
Crunch, to the extent that I understand your point, Obama can't take any credit for the continual improvement in the economy after the crash of 2008.  As an arch-Trumpist, you know that it was only an illusion that anything more than the sun rising and setting happened while Obama was in office.  Now, however, Trump gets full credit for everything good that has happened since he single-handedly began raising and lowering the sun each day, and it will only be nothing more than a natural sunset if good things stop happening during or after his reign.  It must be soothing to see things with such simple clarity. 

Seriati

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #122 on: December 18, 2019, 11:16:56 AM »
Seriati, your writing arm never seems to tire.  I want to respond (as briefly as possible, but not moreso) to each of your points, which I will do later today, but I'll make a general comment now.  Virtually everything Trump does is transactional and aims for short-term results at the expense of long-term benefits, despite his great claims to the contrary (6% GDP growth, anybody?).

That reflects a complete lack of understanding of what is really going on.  Care to walk me through how putting tariffs on our major trading partners (acknowledged by all economists as slowing growth in the economy) is for a short term benefit at the expense of the long term?  Or how about how getting a handle on illegal immigration, which politicians of all sides have avoided for decades because of the short term consequences reflects that thinking?

Heck his entire policy on foreign aid and foreign involvement is reflective of taking short term hits to change the long term gain and to force our allies to commit more to the goals.

Even his tax policies are focused long term, targetted to bring wealth back into the country (our prior tax regs made bringing capital home pure folly) and getting it invested in generating new long term jobs and growth here.  Opportunity zones are directly targetted at builingb long term benefits for impoverished communities, something that the people who have been living without hope in those areas desparately need (the best benefits tax wise take more than 10 years to fully realize).  Handouts and Democratic policies have destroyed their communities, Trump's focus is generating real opportunities and growth.  I mean heck, you really think that Sanders and Warren are thinking long term with wealth taxes and a tear down the rich philosophy?  Those have never worked - anywhere - to generate long term good or anything but worsening situations.

Regulation?  Both short and long term getting the government out of the micro control market is a good thing.  Keep resources focused on big things, not the little.

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Many of those things actually will end up costing vastly more later than is saved or generated now.  Some highlights that affect all Americans except the most wealthy...

You've misconstrued what's really going on.  I'm guessing you have too much jealousy of wealth to see anything involving the rich clearly.

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If you want to give him credit, you have to acknowledge that many of the positive trends seen over the past two years are continuations of trends that began under Obama.  But you won't, of course.

No, happy to agree that some trends began at the very end of Obama's reign.  The market was pretty sure that his disastrous policies were going to be ending.  Granted they expected it to be Clinton the corporatist that did so, but Trump turned out even better.

Far cry though from giving Obama credit for the whole package that he doesn't deserve, or for the ability to do things he said were impossible, or for maintaining outstanding and historic unemployment, rising wages, increases in labor force usage and minimal inflation - while running an active trade war, getting minimal support from the Fed (more like active harm at times), 95% negative press coverage trying to suppress rather than prop up consumer confidence and being investigated with sham processes and deep state traitors all the while.

I get the delusion, but if Obama had a third term the economy would be no where near as good.  And like I said above, I saw an estimate that if Warren wins and implements her policies we could be looking at a 10% contraction.  That's great depression scale problems.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #123 on: December 18, 2019, 11:58:05 AM »
Response to Seriate, #2:

More detailed response.
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Sure, tax relief, focus on returning American jobs, which increased both manufacturing jobs and all jobs generally, focus on freeing American ingenuity to operate.  There's a reason unemployment is historically low and inflation hasn't jumped through the roof.  There's a reason every minority group is at record low unemployment.  There's a reason that real wage growth is occuring and that the poor are seeing improvements in their situations.  It isn't decades of unfulfilled Democratic promises on handouts.
Virtually all of these "results" are continuations of trends that began under Obama, who had to help the country recover from the deepest economic collapse since the 1930's.  He gets zero credit for anything he did while people (like you) praise Trump as if he has made the US rise like a phoenix from near death.

1) Foreign investment in the US has slowed under Trump.
2) Only a small number of manufacturing jobs have returned to the US and many companies are moving manufacturing outside the US.  At best this is a wash, but Trump claimed there would be a massive return and growth in the US in these areas.
3) "Freeing American ingenuity to operate"?  You don't see that as nothing more than an empty talking point?  American ingenuity as measured by market dominance shows that foreign owned companies have increased dramatically in the US.  I have no idea what that says about US ingenuity.
4) Wage growth under Trump is relatively lackluster with spikes and dips and has never reached the highest point under Obama in 2016.  Overall, wage growth under Obama showed a consistent growth with fewer spikes.  Trump is the beneficiary of that trend, which continues.
5) Analyzing poverty is a long discussion in itself.  There has been a statistical decline in the number of people who qualify as living in poverty in each of the last 4 years, which includes the last 2 years of Obama's Presidency. At the same time many public assistance programs poor people have benefited from have been reduced or eliminated under Trump, which doesn't show up on their poverty qualification but increases their living costs.  One of the biggest reasons people move into poverty is medical expenses, which is seeing a massive public assistance reduction under Trump.

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What has Trump done to harm Healthcare?  Seriously.  This is near impossible to fix.  There is absolutely no will to fix it.  Lie to yourself all you want the Dems won't agree to any fix, whether it works or not, unless it gets more healthcare under government control and makes more people dependent on hand outs.  It's just a simple truth, they've been buying votes for so long they see anything that actually works to make people independent as a threat to their own power. 

And this is 100% reflected in the Dem candidate's announced policies, very heavy on the hand outs, and no sense whatsoever when it comes to paying for it, heck a lot of them just lie about the impact on the middle class and poor. 
Near impossible to fix?!?  Then why did Trump repeatedly claim that he was was going to repeal and replace it with a far simpler, cheaper and effective program?  Do you need me to do your homework to come up with videos of his grandiose claims?  Who has been lying to whom?  How many votes did he buy with that bogus claim, only once in office to confess that he had no idea health care reform could be so complicated?  It's a natural fact that instead of being "heavy on the handouts," Republicans - and Trump is no more guilty than others - keep insisting that lowering taxes and reducing or eliminating public welfare programs will somehow make Americans richer and happier.  Ain't never happened and never will.
  
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You know I don't trust economist's predictions, but I saw an article saying that the market should expect a 10% negative contraction if Warren is elected.  Talk about misery.

Wow, talk about a self-serving and utterly hypocritical statement.  You don't believe economists, but this one you like because, wait for it...it bashes a progressive Democrat.  What about the hundreds of economists who have doubted or rebutted Trump's glowing claims about the miracles he says he has already wreaked on the economy or will bring into the world over time?

More later, need to do some arm rlaexnig erexciess. Dman, too ltae.
--
w3w...

TheDeamon

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #124 on: December 18, 2019, 12:00:48 PM »
We have to acknowledge that, after a recession, jobs and economic numbers bounce back. That’s like taking credit for the sunrise.


This isn’t true. Things don’t always better. China was the greatest empire for ages ...then declined for generations. People are going to be waiting a long time for the Roman Empire to come back.

China didn't really crash or even contract in an economic sense. It's political border withered, likely due to lack of economic growth as populations continued to both increase(fewer resources per capita; which in turn impacted resources available for military defense) and failed to keep pace with their neighbors.

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The current Republic is showing signs that it’s time as a Democracy is at an end.

That remains to be seen, the system is capable of recovery in the United States at least, although we can argue about the odds of it happening. What we're seeing now is not unprecedented in American history.

As the only expression goes: "History may not exactly repeat itself, but it certainly rhymes." So yes, certain aspects of what we're seeing is new, but most of it, at its core, is very much not new at all. As we have a significant mix of Adams vs Jefferson, President Johnson, and even Woodrow Wilson going on right now. (However, unlike Presidents Wilson and Adams, Trump isn't putting journalists in jail.)
 
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There isn’t some natural order that always results in improvement.

Agreed, it isn't a guarantee, but it is the long-term national trend, the economy recovers every time and continues growing after it happens. On a micro level, it is very obviously not the case, as there are numerous ghost-towns around the country that tell that story, or near ghost-towns in a number of other cases.

Pete at Home

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #125 on: December 18, 2019, 12:16:48 PM »

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought she was a he. Or is this a pronoun thing?

Does Kasandra have a preferred pronoun?
IRL, yes.  However, if you feel more deferential toward one or another, feel free to think of me that way.  We're all shadows, anyway.

Ah, I know who you are now. Sorry; thought you were Marnie. I know you don’t like me much either but I’ve got nothing against you and actually enjoy your sense of humor when you let it out of the cage. Wish you’d let me call you Kas, who is my favorite character on Wentworth.

TheDrake

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #126 on: December 18, 2019, 12:20:47 PM »
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You know I don't trust economist's predictions, but I saw an article saying that the market should expect a 10% negative contraction if Warren is elected.  Talk about misery.


#1, where was the article, info wars? I can't find any reference worse than tenths. #2 none of that would result from an election win, I think it presupposes that she gets her wealth tax, which would have to get past the house, senate, and scotus.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #127 on: December 18, 2019, 12:27:53 PM »
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Ah, I know who you are now. Sorry; thought you were Marnie. I know you don’t like me much either but I’ve got nothing against you and actually enjoy your sense of humor when you let it out of the cage.
I don't dislike you, though your avatar could use a shave and a haircut.  I like wearing the free-flowing gown of the ancient skeptic for whom it's common rather than real knowledge to be skeptical of.  Sigh, nobody believes me, either...

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #128 on: December 18, 2019, 12:50:58 PM »
Seriate response #3:

More blah-blah.

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School choice.  The left only opposes it because the teacher's union owns them, even though it hurts their own minority constituents.  You'll note too how rarely the affluent left lets their children be harmed by public schools.  They always live in school districts with good teacher, and even then send their kids to private schools, yet they oppose school choice?  They get it themselves by moving, and then lecture those who don't have the economic means to use that option themselves and have kids stuck in and harmed by failing schools.
As for loan forgiveness, it's a garbage solution to a garbage problem the left created.  Every time the left authorized more loan guaranties to ensure that everyone could "afford" a college education, and to ensure a steady flow of guaranteed government money to the schools, the schools reacted by raising their tuitions and hiring more and more administrators.    Not one of those programs held those schools accountable for the lack of success of their students.  Now that they've created a monster (and they were behind the loan guarantees and bankruptcy protection to ensure that lenders would enter into the market without consideration for the qualification of the student - how else does a student get $250k in loans to major in basket weaving).  The "only" solution of course is to take it over with more government, free college, and government paying for all the loans.  More free stuff, promised if you elect the Dems, paid for by someone else (really we promise, someone else, just don't actually think about he economics - oh wait, you're not going to major in that anyway).

Can't allow any correction in the higher education market since it's totally controlled by the left, and supports massive and bloated amounts of reliable blue voters.

"School choice" is a euphemism not unlike "pro-life".  Those who favor it want to eliminate standards for secular and so-called liberal education curricula.  Betsy Devos, who lives in my home state of Michigan, was hired to oversee the disembowelment of the public education establishment.  More charter schools in Michigan either fail or never even open despite receiving public funds, than in any other state.  In Michigan and across the country education standards are being narrowed to test score results and those results are falling ever farther behind other developed countries. Do your reading.

The loan forgiveness debacle is a mess with many causes.  Yes, the Obama program allowed fraud and misrepresentation, which became apparent when the first batch of 10-year beneficiaries applied for their loans to be retired in 2017 and over 99% were rejected.  How did Devos and Trump respond?  First by saying and doing nothing, then by creating a program to fix the program that still rejects 99% of applicants.  In fact, they never even published guidelines for how to apply to the new program and Devos has been found in contempt for refusing to forgive loans proffered by deceptive for-profit schools backed by the Education Department.

Do you have any idea how chilling that will be for recruiting new college grads to go into the public K-12 teaching sector?  Probably not, because public education itself is thought of as a left-wing plot to indoctrinate impressionable young minds.  Better for them to have 12 years of Christian mythic indoctrination.  Just ask Betsy:

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"There are not enough philanthropic dollars in America to fund what is currently the need in education…Our desire is to confront the culture in ways that will continue to advance God’s kingdom."

Aemn!

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #129 on: December 18, 2019, 02:45:01 PM »
Seriati #4:

Munny funny munny...

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Tax reform delivered benefits to everyone in the lower 80% and only some of those in the upper 20%.   Corporate tax reforms has brought massive amounts of equity capital back into the country, boosting the economy and created massive job growth - exactly what the left always claims that government spending will do (but that it fails to do as effectively).

Let's do it differently this time:

"The rich will not be gaining at all with this plan." - Donald Trump

Here is the tax savings by quintile:

0-20: 0.4%
21-40: 1.2%
41-60: 1.6%
61-80: 1.9%
81-100: 2.9%

The top 5% got 50% of all tax savings, not just from the reduction in tax margins, but from the increase in stock values and profits due to corporate tax rate reduction.  The majority of stock market investors are the self-same rich folks.  Don't expect somebody making $40,000 to be setting aside money to play in the market.

Meanwhile, the average savings for all families in the US is about $16,500, but the median is about $4,500.  That means that 50% of US households only have enough savings to fall back on for about one month, assuming no unexpected expenses.  Sound good to you?

As for business investment, the rise has been about 2.5% this year, which is equal to or lower than in 4 of Obama's 8 years, and only marginally higher than in 2017, the last year where Obama's policies were influencing the economy.  All hail Trump, eh?

The massive job growth is real, though not massive.  Since 2010 the unemployment rate has declined at an almost linear rate.  While Trump's policies may have had an influence that continued the prior trend, you have to go out of your way to dismiss the continual positive trend under Obama.  But, go ahead anyway.  Maybe it was just because the sun was rising when he was in office and now it blazes under Trump's incendiary gaze.

As for foreign profit repatriation, you may have forgotten that Trump claimed that $4T (with a T) would flow back into the US.  The amount thought to be held overseas was somewhere between $2.7-$4T, so he was, shall we say, optimistic in the extreme.  The actual amount repatriated so far is somewhere between $145B-$465B (with a B).  Since at least half of those profits are held in non-liquidatable form, that's probably as good as it gets.  That's something, but nowhere near the advertised expectation.

I hope you're seeing a trend in my responses, which anybody with a high school education should realize.  Trump vastly overstates the benefits of his plans and policy proposals and delivers a fraction of the promised results, if at all (Mexico border wall, anyone?  I *swear* they'll pay for it!  Really!).
  
Can you think of a single area where he has lived up to his campaign promises?  I can't.

Pete at Home

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I don't need no walls around me!
« Reply #130 on: December 18, 2019, 03:30:24 PM »
I'd have liked that last post if it wasn't for the paragraph about the wall.  Please don't bring up the wall.  Let it be forgotten.  Let's not treat it like Iraq 1.0 got treated, "Bush didn't finish the job" which eventually lead us into Iraq 2.0

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #131 on: December 18, 2019, 04:11:42 PM »
Well, with Trump it's the gift that never gets given, unless he can persuade Colorado.  There's no more palpable example that his hands are too small to get around a big problem.  Uh-oh, did I use my outside voice just there?

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #132 on: December 18, 2019, 05:37:00 PM »
Seriati #5

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Leading to improvements in trade deals and resurgence in jobs in American industries the left declared were gone for ever.
You're either misconstruing tariffs with trade deals or conflating the two.  Tariffs with China have cost about $39B so far if you add direct costs ($11B) with government offset subsides ($28B) with revenue enhancement of about $15B.  However, don't forget that the tariffs are paid by the importers and consumers who buy those products, so the actual cost to the economy is much higher.

I'm not sure what trade deals you might be referring to, since Trump hasn't actually enacted any so far. As for the supposed "resurgence in jobs" I'll let you explain how and where exactly they are tied to international trade.

TheDeamon

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #133 on: December 18, 2019, 05:49:49 PM »
There's a trade deal working its way through Congress right now that essentially replaces/updates NAFTA, and has broad bipartisan support. Congress has been doing a little bit more than just fixating on impeaching Trump. Although the Dems would rather you fixate on that than pay attention to the trade deal he brokered and they like.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/politics/usmca-nancy-pelosi-donald-trump-trade-deal/index.html
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 05:52:29 PM by TheDeamon »

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #134 on: December 18, 2019, 06:03:37 PM »
What do you think of the hundreds of minor and major bills that the House has passed that McConnell has refused to bring to the floor for a vote?

I'll also suggest that you look closely at the NAFTA replacement to decide if you really think it is a major advancement over its predecessor.  I am still trying to figure that out and haven't formed an opinion yet.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #135 on: December 18, 2019, 10:15:05 PM »
Seriati #6:

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I don't believe that.  Again, despite the failed promises of the left, it's Trump that's bringing real wage growth, real job opportunities, prison reform, and renewed focus on improving the impoverished places where the poor live (opportunity zone legislation).  Maybe talk to some people in that demographic, they are much more optimistic than they were under the previous administration.

Optimism is a funny thing to measure.  Overall, suicide rates have increased by about 33% in the past 20 years and are increasing fastest among white people in rural areas and areas with high poverty, lack of health insurance and military veterans.  In the areas showing the highest increases there is a correlation with an increase in gun stores, which comports with the fact that 50% of all suicides are committed with guns.  The inference is that economic inequality is a significant contributing factor, as is social isolation.  Funny that these are the same populations that were more likely to vote for Trump.

Also look at millennials who are the first generation since WWII who are economically worse off than their parents' generation.  They disproportionately rely on their parents for money, are carrying student loan debt, are delaying marriage and having children and on average have about $8,000 in savings.

So tell me who is more optimistic because of Trump and why.  Maybe rich people are, but maybe they're not. I've read papers arguing both ways.  (Somewhat) oddly, from what I've read the groups of people in the US who seem to have the highest "happiness" index are black families below the poverty line, couples who have vigorous sex, hispanics of all economic levels and white families earning $75,000-$100,000/yr.  None of them are attributable to Trump.  Go figure.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #136 on: December 20, 2019, 05:34:31 AM »
Seriati, no responses?  I keep hoping you'll come up with some convincing evidence to back up your logorrheic arguments to persuade me.

Pete at Home

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #137 on: December 20, 2019, 12:40:18 PM »
Seriati #6:

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I don't believe that.  Again, despite the failed promises of the left, it's Trump that's bringing real wage growth, real job opportunities, prison reform, and renewed focus on improving the impoverished places where the poor live (opportunity zone legislation).  Maybe talk to some people in that demographic, they are much more optimistic than they were under the previous administration.

Optimism is a funny thing to measure.  Overall, suicide rates have increased by about 33% in the past 20 years and are increasing fastest among white people in rural areas and areas with high poverty, lack of health insurance and military veterans.  In the areas showing the highest increases there is a correlation with an increase in gun stores, which comports with the fact that 50% of all suicides are committed with guns.  The inference is that economic inequality is a significant contributing factor, as is social isolation.  Funny that these are the same populations that were more likely to vote for Trump.

Also look at millennials who are the first generation since WWII who are economically worse off than their parents' generation.  They disproportionately rely on their parents for money, are carrying student loan debt, are delaying marriage and having children and on average have about $8,000 in savings.

So tell me who is more optimistic because of Trump and why.

From my observation, many of the poor rural whites that you describe are foolishly optimistic about Trump since he's the first president in ages to listen to them and to pretend to care about them.

I commend you for paying attention to them in your succinct description of their woes.  Most leftist talking heads mock white suicide rates, which is, I suppose, the ultimate sort of white flight.  My roommate committed suicide last year at this time, and I consequently spent most of 2019 homeless.  "Let them eat white privilege" is less helpful than some seem to think. 

Seriati

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #138 on: December 20, 2019, 03:13:18 PM »
Kasandra, been working link a dog and have barely had time to read most of what you wrote.  Pretty clear that demonstrating the errors is going to take a lot of time at the research, so it will be a while before I can get to it.  Not sure if you've ever noticed, but I tend to post in bursts (that correspond roughly to when I do have the time).

TheDrake

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #139 on: December 20, 2019, 04:31:39 PM »
Kasandra, been working link a dog and have barely had time to read most of what you wrote.  Pretty clear that demonstrating the errors is going to take a lot of time at the research, so it will be a while before I can get to it.  Not sure if you've ever noticed, but I tend to post in bursts (that correspond roughly to when I do have the time).

I appreciate it when a member acknowledges that arguments are left unanswered but simply don't have time to respond. We should all avoid the assumption that someone is ignoring us, but it helps to know it for a fact!

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #140 on: December 20, 2019, 05:45:27 PM »
Kasandra, been working link a dog and have barely had time to read most of what you wrote.  Pretty clear that demonstrating the errors is going to take a lot of time at the research, so it will be a while before I can get to it.  Not sure if you've ever noticed, but I tend to post in bursts (that correspond roughly to when I do have the time).

I appreciate it when a member acknowledges that arguments are left unanswered but simply don't have time to respond. We should all avoid the assumption that someone is ignoring us, but it helps to know it for a fact!

I agree.  Since his original comments came without much delay (and because he has walked away from other conversations, IMO, prematurely) I made an assumption.  I acknowledge and accept his reason and look forward to his response.

Seriati

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #141 on: December 23, 2019, 10:17:57 AM »
To be fair, I usually don't stop posting in these intervals because it's faster and easier (and frankly more fun) to post about opinions or things that are in my direct knowledge.  But that was quite the log jam of details that have to be responded to, rather than just dismissed out of hand (who knows, I my even find that some of what I thought was true turns out to have been overstated, but it takes time to parse point by point).

And it is certainly the case that I have had drops in other conversations where I meant to respond and forgot or took so long the topic had died.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #142 on: December 23, 2019, 01:04:26 PM »
Seriati, you and I disagree but I do welcome the exchanges.

TheDrake

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #143 on: January 31, 2020, 12:22:56 PM »
Only six hours to the big Brexit. Why 23.00 was picked as the time is confusing. Are they trying to sweep it under the rug?

Now comes a transition period which lasts til the end of the year, but could be extended another couple of years.

TheDrake

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #144 on: June 15, 2020, 05:58:56 PM »
Remember Brexit? Yeah that's still happening.

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The EU insists without agreement on fishing and competition rules, there'll be no deal at all. It wants restrictions on the UK's ability to slash costly environmental or labour regulations for example, in order to prevent UK businesses becoming more competitive than European ones in their own market. This, says the EU, is imperative to protect the "integrity" of the single market and what it calls "the European project".

But political rhetoric aside, Boris Johnson and EU leaders want a deal. It makes economic sense. This doesn't mean a deal is certain. But the UK isn't walking away from talks this month either, as it once threatened to do.

Instead, after their meeting on Monday, the prime minister and the European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen are expected to announce a timetable of intensified negotiations this summer, including some face-to-face meetings (Covid-19 permitting) in a declared attempt to break the deadlock.

Prepare for the setting of more deadlines too. Plus dark mutterings from both sides (France's Europe minister was already at it on Thursday) should these deadlines not be met.

The UK says a deal must become clear before the autumn to give businesses and workers the chance to prepare. Spoiler alert: a deal is extremely unlikely to materialise by then.

The EU insists 31 October is the latest date a deal can be reached, if it is to be ratified by the end of the year (the UK's other deadline).

Spoiler alert Number 2: the late October date is also quite possibly not going to be met.

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #145 on: June 15, 2020, 06:13:04 PM »
Looks like the latest news is no news and don't expect much news.  Well, at least they're giving it a good go.

TheDeamon

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #146 on: June 15, 2020, 06:30:18 PM »
Only six hours to the big Brexit. Why 23.00 was picked as the time is confusing. Are they trying to sweep it under the rug?

Now comes a transition period which lasts til the end of the year, but could be extended another couple of years.

Midnight in Brussels?

Kasandra

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Re: BoJo Boffo or Bozo?
« Reply #147 on: June 27, 2020, 11:58:55 AM »
Not clear why, but a UK poll taken in 2019 and just released says that 57% of UK citizens want to stay in the EU, and only 32% want to leave.  BoJo must have known this before running on his Brexit platform.