Author Topic: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.  (Read 27818 times)

Fenring

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #50 on: August 27, 2019, 04:09:11 PM »
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Every single person I know with a "Reject Hate" sign in their yard has personally acted from hate on fairly arbitrary and petty basis (and I don't mean politics, I mean literally things like excluding a person and talking bad about them because they carried the wrong purse).
That is a fairly all-or-nothing view on "hate".  Be a paragon of virtue or keep your views to yourself?

Now that you mention it...yeah. That would be a good place to start. If only we had the discipline to follow exactly this. But it's so much easier to point and say "you idiot!" that we end up denouncing things most of the time instead of just focusing on personal comportment. Eventually that comportment ends up falling into service of the denouncing, and "your own goodness" becomes defined by your success at denouncing. Why else are people so rabidly drawn to do it? It's the feeling that they raise their virtue in this way. 

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It is perfectly acceptable that one side should reject this dialogue


Acceptable in what way?  A side is perfectly capable of rejecting dialogue but once that is done there can be no change.
This simply is not true.  Despite the increase of outlier stories put forward by the media, things ARE changing.  Trying to appease or give a larger megaphone to those outliers is not seeking to solve a problem.

Correction: things WERE changing, all without the aid of puritanical zealotry. In fact a lot of progress was made by the left during the resurgence of evangelical puritanism in the 80's and 90's. But now - I believe they are changing back. As Grant mentioned, a lot of progress away from socially arduous practices seems to be walked back in favor of recycling those methods, but this time targeted at "the real" bad guys. And likewise I must say that a lot of notions that progressives fought to eliminate back in the 70's-90's are now also being walked back by the intersectionalist crowd and even endorsed as progressive dogma. It's almost remarkable how much of a switcheroo is happening in some respects, where the parts of the left I'm referring to have virtually leapt into the niche previously occupied by the radical right. And lest this point go unaddressed once again, no, it's not just a tiny extremist cadre on the left, but rather an enormous proportion of progressives that have wholesale adopted these terms and concepts. Most are not radicals, but they now speak the language of the radicals.

There was a hilarious instance once of talking with a friend who's a full-blown anti-Xist of every stripe. You name the intersectionalist cliche and he pronounces it all the time as if only a moron could fail to see its wisdom. Once we were talking about women's portrayal in classic Hollywood film (a neat thing to discuss) and he was trying to roundly denounce a harmless screwball comedy as being "sexist and starring horrible people" and was prepping to initiate a speech about the sexism in the film, when he paused. I wasn't sure if he was pausing to consider the plot elements or what. Then he began again, along the lines of "the film clearly portrays the woman as being in the thrall of men, who have all the power. This is repugnant. Except, well, the film is also about the woman having a lot of power for the time, which is also sexist because it shouldn't be a big deal that she does, and they make a big deal out of it. She shouldn't be portrayed as feminine in a man's field, but...wait...no, they DO show her as feminine but the problem is that femininity is a patriarchal ideal. But then...hold on, so she isn't really feminine since that's patriarchal, so actually acting like a man is fine, but then they do treat her like she's out of her element, which is wrong. But as a woman she does have a responsibility to represent women in the workplace. Wait, what do I believe again?" It was actually sad/funny to watch this breakdown because I could tell he was actively trying to cross-wire the various intersectionalist claims all at the same time to deconstruct a silly movie, and was sure he was meant to be denouncing something but couldn't quite put his finger on what. And I should say that this is a super-friendly person, very empathetic, and with no ill will per se. Except that he acted like his god-given duty to point out the horribleness of a film that didn't accord with...he couldn't even name what! It being horrible preceded him being able to articulate why. THAT was very telling. A lesson to us all about having a set of dogmas so completely take over an interpretive framework that nothing else can break through the bubble.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 04:14:07 PM by Fenring »

Grant

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #51 on: August 27, 2019, 04:12:07 PM »
So what's the alternative?

Racist: <racist statement>
The Left: Hey that's not cool. Okay, see you later.
Racist: heh.

I, personally, am advocating dialogue. 

Racist: <racist statement>
Everybody else:  Well, you're wrong.  I'll tell you why.  It's untrue.  I'll explain why.  I'll sit here and talk until my patience is wore out, but I'll be back.  I believe in what I'm saying.  I believe it is the truth.  These are the reasons why. 

Now, I'm sure in some paranoid mind, the racist is going "heh".  Maybe they do.  If you think it's a lost cause feel free to not talk to them and ignore them on the subject.  Or you can just keep saying the same thing, regardless, because you have the courage of your convictions.  Personally, I'll admit I'm more likely to just walk away.  I'm far from a saint. Maybe that's why I feel tolerant towards others who are not saints.  I'm probably better than some of these asshats.  But I'm still not a saint. 

You want a path forward, I'm not the guru.  But they are out there.  Try something like this:

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INFORMATION GATHERING:To understand and articulate an issue, problem or injustice facing a person, community, or institution you must do research. You must investigate and gather all vital information from all sides of the argument or issue so as to increase your understanding of the problem. You must become an expert on your opponent’s position.
EDUCATION:It is essential to inform others, including your opposition, about your issue. This minimizes misunderstandings and gains you support and sympathy.
PERSONAL COMMITMENT:Daily check and affirm your faith in the philosophy and methods of nonviolence. Eliminate hidden motives and prepare yourself to accept suffering, if necessary, in your work for justice.
DISCUSSION/NEGOTIATION:Using grace, humor and intelligence, confront the other party with a list of injustices and a plan for addressing and resolving these injustices. Look for what is positive in every action and statement the opposition makes. Do not seek to humiliate the opponent but to call forth the good in the opponent.
DIRECT ACTION: These are actions taken when the opponent is unwilling to enter into, or remain in, discussion/negotiation. These actions impose a “creative tension” into the conflict, supplying moral pressure on your opponent to work with you in resolving the injustice.
RECONCILIATION:Nonviolence seeks friendship and understanding with the opponent. Nonviolence does not seek to defeat the opponent. Nonviolence is directed against evil systems, forces, oppressive policies, unjust acts, but not against persons. Through reasoned compromise, both sides resolve the injustice with a plan of action. Each act of reconciliation is one step close to the ‘Beloved Community.’






rightleft22

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2019, 04:34:21 PM »
Best book I’ve read on communication: ‘Crucial Conversations Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High, by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny,
Should be taught in schools.

TheDrake

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2019, 04:39:57 PM »
All of those things are fine as a starting point. I've personally helped people to understand not to use racial slurs, at least in my presence. We're still friends. If they hadn't made that adjustment, we wouldn't be. That is a gentle form, but still amounts to social ostracism. Then I might talk to other people who hang out with that person. It might eventually reach his boss, and he might get his hours cut. Or not. I don't agree with going scorched earth on someone because they innocently call people of color "colored people". I'm going to explain why that's wrong, how it makes others feel, etc.

Go hang out on 8chan and see how your reconciliation approach works. You can avoid them, of course, and then they fester. They recruit. They spread their hate.

If you think this is a bad approach, should we also stop deplatforming radical islamic sites? What about advocates of pedophilia? At some point, a thing is bad enough that you must attempt to limit people's exposure to it.

NobleHunter

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2019, 04:47:36 PM »
There's a reason punching Nazis is popular among people who've been spending the last few decades trying to keep Nazis out of their spaces.

D.W.

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2019, 04:51:59 PM »
Generation who fought Nazis.
Generation who's pop culture centered around fighting Nazis.
Generation who are fighting Nazis.

I have no idea how this latest generation got the (mistaken?) impression it was OK behavior!   ::)

Grant

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2019, 05:03:48 PM »
If you think this is a bad approach, should we also stop deplatforming radical islamic sites? What about advocates of pedophilia? At some point, a thing is bad enough that you must attempt to limit people's exposure to it.

K.  When it comes to radical Islam or advocates of pedophilia, you're talking about the avocation of actual crimes.  Not just racism.  Not just calling people names.  Not just being a jerk.  You're talking about advocating criminal action.  Even then, you have a great deal of 1st Amendment rights.  Maybe too much protection.  But some people in radical Islam are saying "go kill that person".  That's verboten.  That's advocating a crime.  That's advocating murder.  I'm not talking about putting up with that crap.  Incitement is a crime.  They should be shut down and arrested.  Advocates of pedophilia may just be advocating for changing the law or arguing the morality of the subject.  I believe that is still protected.  Actually inciting an individual or advocating for an individual to go out and have sex with children is not protected.  Find them and arrest them. 

This isn't hard.  These things are very different. 

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Go hang out on 8chan and see how your reconciliation approach works. You can avoid them, of course, and then they fester. They recruit. They spread their hate.

That's online speech.  It's the worst speech.  Havn't you noticed?  You can't change anybody's mind online.  You can't engage with these people impersonally.  You have to engage with them personally. 

Seriati

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2019, 05:16:19 PM »
There's a reason punching Nazis is popular among people who've been spending the last few decades trying to keep Nazis out of their spaces.

Lol, lot's more people "punching Nazis" than there are actual Nazis.  Which is I think the point here, when a person defines their own goodness by punching a Nazis they end up on a never ending search to label people Nazis so they can self validate.

scifibum

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2019, 05:17:14 PM »
How many people are punching Nazis, then? Please substantiate.

Seriati

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2019, 05:24:18 PM »
Lol, just after I posted my AOC quote on how labeling someone a communist is racist, came this one, where apparently calling some a bedbug in joke is what Totalitarian regimes do. 

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New York Times columnist Bret Stephens stood by his much-criticized reaction to a professor comparing him to a bed bug, pointing to how insect comparisons have been used by totalitarian regimes.

"There is a bad history of being analogized to insects that goes back to a lot of totalitarian regimes," Stephens said during an MSNBC appearance on Tuesday.https://www.foxnews.com/media/bret-stephens-bedbugs-totalitarian-regimes-msnbc

According to the article the original tweet add 9 likes and zero retweets at the time Stephens deemed it worth mailing a response to the poster and to his boss.  But he 'wasn't trying to get him in trouble at work.'  Of course not.

Just this morning I was reading a response to the NYT's whine that its not acceptable to dig into the public tweets of journalists and out them for racist, sexist and anti-semitic tweets they made in the past.  That's only acceptable when it's the journalists that do it to politicians (and anyone that they want to destroy).

TheDrake

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2019, 05:24:46 PM »
If you think this is a bad approach, should we also stop deplatforming radical islamic sites? What about advocates of pedophilia? At some point, a thing is bad enough that you must attempt to limit people's exposure to it.

K.  When it comes to radical Islam or advocates of pedophilia, you're talking about the avocation of actual crimes.

Actually, advocating for pedophilia is not a crime. You can advocate for changing the law, like NAMBLA does. Anonymous overran their website. They are certainly ostracized.

I'm sure I could dig up references of radical islam where they don't talk about committing crimes, just about their dream of forming a caliphate.

Somebody who makes a comment about how hot a 15 year old looks isn't advocating a crime, it is still creepy and should be called out - gently at first and if it continued I could see escalating to various social punishment or ostracism.

You can find people who are passing around lynching postcards, would that be enough for you to want to intervene? That's advocating a crime - murder.

Grant

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2019, 05:28:10 PM »
Generation who fought Nazis.
Generation who's pop culture centered around fighting Nazis.
Generation who are fighting Nazis.

I have no idea how this latest generation got the (mistaken?) impression it was OK behavior!   ::)

::groannnnnn::

OK Nazi punchers.  Let's be clear.  Captain America fought Nazis.  Eisenhower fought Nazis.  Grandpa Jones fought Nazis.  Col Hogan fought Nazis.  Dick Winters fought Nazis.  Oddball fought Nazis.  Indiana Jones fought Nazis. 

You have not, and are not. 

Let's look at the difference between a group of people including the Red Skull, Hitler, and Obergruppenfuhrer Hans Schwerpunkt, and say Richard Spencer and Franz Liebkind. 

Group 1:  Invaded Poland, France, Greece, Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark, the Soviet Union, and wanted to invade Great Britain.  That's most of Europe.  Entire countries.  An ENTIRE CONTINENT.  Occupied them. 

Group 2:  Countries invaded:  0.  Once invaded a deli in Greenwitch Village and Lee Park in Charlottesville, VA.  Promptly left. 

Group 1:  Killed millions of people, through war, and systematic genocide of entire groups innocent non-combatants.  TENS OF MILLIONS OF DEATHS.  MURDERED MILLIONS. 

Group 2:  Couldn't kill Jake and Elwood Blues. 


So don't pretend that your brave forebears, Captain America, and you wanting to punch Richard Spencer, have anything in common.  Normal people know the difference.  Normal people understand that punching Richard Spencer for saying stupid racist crap is a crime.  It's assault and battery.  You'll go to jail.  If I'm on the jury, I'll find you guilty.  Then they'll say I'm defending Nazis.  Because they're stupid.

Seriati

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2019, 05:34:07 PM »
This one has me even more baffled, https://www.foxnews.com/tech/palantirs-ice-prompts-lgbtq-tech-conference-disinvite.

Apparently if you are LGBTQ you are not entitled to support immigration laws, to the point that you must find anyone whose software has been used to apply immigration laws that are still in fact laws that Congress has made no real effort to fix for 40 years, a persona non grata. 

I'm still baffled by the philosophy that bars working for the US government, but supports working for every other government on earth - the vast majority of which (really just about all) are more oppressive of individual rights that than the US government, including, often, specifically on the LGBTQ spectra.  Again, given the US's leading role in the advancement of all things LGBTQ they ought to be supporting the US government.

TheDrake

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2019, 05:40:02 PM »
Hitler didn't start out with control of the Wehrmacht and the SS. He organized rallies, built momentum until he couldn't be stopped. It is better to stop people who emulate and revere him nonviolently, but dismiss him at your peril.

Grant

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2019, 05:43:33 PM »
Actually, advocating for pedophilia is not a crime. You can advocate for changing the law, like NAMBLA does.

Yeah.  I said that.  I said that advocating or inciting for an individual to go out and have sex with a minor is a crime. Reading is fundamental.

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Anonymous overran their website. They are certainly ostracized.


Why?  Because Anonymous overran their website?  Was it a good thing? Did it change anybody's mind?  Ugh. 

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I'm sure I could dig up references of radical islam where they don't talk about committing crimes, just about their dream of forming a caliphate.

Sure.  That's not the type of radical Islam I'm talking about.  Is that the type you're talking about? 


Grant

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2019, 05:49:22 PM »
Hitler didn't start out with control of the Wehrmacht and the SS. He organized rallies, built momentum until he couldn't be stopped. It is better to stop people who emulate and revere him nonviolently, but dismiss him at your peril.

Let's just kill Hitler as a baby. 

Not everybody who says stupid *censored* turns into Hitler.  In fact, the vast majority of people who say stupid *censored* don't turn into Hitler.  Want to fight a real *censored*?  Go fight Bashir al Assad.  Not sure most nazi-punchers are ready or capable of that. 

scifibum

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2019, 05:51:36 PM »
Lol, just after I posted my AOC quote on how labeling someone a communist is racist, came this one, where apparently calling some a bedbug in joke is what Totalitarian regimes do. 

Quote
New York Times columnist Bret Stephens stood by his much-criticized reaction to a professor comparing him to a bed bug, pointing to how insect comparisons have been used by totalitarian regimes.

"There is a bad history of being analogized to insects that goes back to a lot of totalitarian regimes," Stephens said during an MSNBC appearance on Tuesday.https://www.foxnews.com/media/bret-stephens-bedbugs-totalitarian-regimes-msnbc

According to the article the original tweet add 9 likes and zero retweets at the time Stephens deemed it worth mailing a response to the poster and to his boss.  But he 'wasn't trying to get him in trouble at work.'  Of course not.

Just this morning I was reading a response to the NYT's whine that its not acceptable to dig into the public tweets of journalists and out them for racist, sexist and anti-semitic tweets they made in the past.  That's only acceptable when it's the journalists that do it to politicians (and anyone that they want to destroy).

EVERYONE is mocking Bret Stephens for that, so at least we agree on something.

Crunch

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2019, 06:10:18 PM »
Hitler didn't start out with control of the Wehrmacht and the SS. He organized rallies, built momentum until he couldn't be stopped. It is better to stop people who emulate and revere him nonviolently, but dismiss him at your peril.

 ::)

TheDrake

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2019, 06:11:50 PM »
Actually, advocating for pedophilia is not a crime. You can advocate for changing the law, like NAMBLA does.

Yeah.  I said that.  I said that advocating or inciting for an individual to go out and have sex with a minor is a crime. Reading is fundamental.

Please don't condescend to me, I don't do that to you. I said "pedophile", which certainly includes nambla. You immediately claimed that it was different because they were advocating crimes. I highlighted how that wasn't necessarily so. I'm claiming that it would be a good thing for NAMBLA to get kicked off their servers, delisted, and every other way in which people can be made social outcasts occurs. So to clarify, do you agree, or do you think those things should never happen and that just the ones that cross the line should be referred to law enforcement? Do you think they should be able to have a rally in the park without being counter protested against, shouted at, and filmed?

I think they should be fully exposed, shouted down and countered.

Why is this a point I'm trying to make? I'm trying to determine if your philosophies are absolute, or if they require the definition of a line using one of the more extreme examples I can think of. One that has an equivalent in the 8chan chat or Spencer's speeches, where they make it clear how much they believe in racial superiority and segregation, while stopping short of openly advocating for violence.

D.W.

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2019, 06:34:00 PM »
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Actually, advocating for pedophilia is not a crime. You can advocate for changing the law, like NAMBLA does. Anonymous overran their website. They are certainly ostracized.
This is a real group?  I thought it was just a bad joke from South Park...   :-[

Grant

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2019, 06:41:02 PM »
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I said "pedophile", which certainly includes nambla. You immediately claimed that it was different because they were advocating crimes. I highlighted how that wasn't necessarily so.

This is what I wrote:

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Advocates of pedophilia may just be advocating for changing the law or arguing the morality of the subject.  I believe that is still protected.


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I'm claiming that it would be a good thing for NAMBLA to get kicked off their servers, delisted, and every other way in which people can be made social outcasts occurs. So to clarify, do you agree, or do you think those things should never happen and that just the ones that cross the line should be referred to law enforcement?

Yes.  Those things should probably not happen and just the ones that expressly break the law by inciting crime should be referred to law enforcement. 

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Do you think they should be able to have a rally in the park without being counter protested against, shouted at, and filmed?

Sure.  Let them rally in the park.  I actually do support them being counter protested, and shouting at them isn't illegal, but I think it's counter productive.  Filming them isn't illegal either.  But what are you going to do then?  Try and get them fired too? 

You know, there is this big debate now in certain conservative circles about how certain conservatives, and particularly libertarians, have too long embraced classical liberalism.  There are certain conservatives who believe that conservatives should be utilizing political power to squash speech that harms the community.  In particular, they are driven crazy by drag queens reading in libraries. 

I'm not a huge fan of drag queens or transsexualism or transvestites.  I do like Bugs Bunny, and Eddie Izzard.  But I support the right of drag queens to show up and use the public library to engage in speech which other people think is harmful.  I think they should be able to do it without hundreds of yahoos yelling and screaming at them.  It's freedom of speech, man. 

Yelling at tons of pedophiles isn't going to win you anything.  I'm not saying you need to take them to dinner, but you don't need to yell and scream and drive them into a hole, either. 

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I think they should be fully exposed, shouted down and countered.

I think you're being counter-productive and hurting the cause.  If you really cared about ending the avocation of pedophilia, you'd work on persuading these advocates that they are wrong. 

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I'm trying to determine if your philosophies are absolute, or if they require the definition of a line using one of the more extreme examples I can think of.

Did I pass the test?  Or did I fail by passing or pass by failing.  I dunno. 

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One that has an equivalent in the 8chan chat or Spencer's speeches, where they make it clear how much they believe in racial superiority and segregation, while stopping short of openly advocating for violence.

I dunno.  I'd have to say that belief in racial superiority is simply stupid and ignorant.  Advocating for segregation is advocating for a crime, but is not as vile as advocating for making pedophilia legal.  So I don't think they're really equivalent.  I'd say you picked one of the more extreme examples.  I'd say the only things that could be worse would be people who advocate for legalizing rape or murder.  I think that would sorely test me. 

TheDrake

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2019, 07:06:21 PM »
That clarifies it pretty clearly, thanks Grant. I don't agree that it is counterproductive, but your point is certainly a valid one to raise.

Fenring

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2019, 09:48:08 PM »
So to clarify, do you agree, or do you think those things should never happen and that just the ones that cross the line should be referred to law enforcement? Do you think they should be able to have a rally in the park without being counter protested against, shouted at, and filmed?

I think they should be fully exposed, shouted down and countered.

I don't mean to cause more trouble, but I'll go ahead and do it. Would you agree with your own proposition if it was posed in regards to Planned Parenthood and people who believe in woman's right to abortion? As I ask this please note that I'm not making a positive argument but rather gauging how much you believe that these tactics are completely legitimate for true believers. And also note that we're not at the moment talking about law (as Grant would have) but about enforcement of moral decency.

So if pro-life advocates try to accomplish all the things you just listed, you will cheer for them in utilizing the tools of goodness? And I would urge you to avoid answering with "but it's different because they're wrong" because that's the whole issues: they will say the same about your side. The pedophiles may be low-hanging fruit, but there are plenty of "them" around at the moment that we can easily find examples of non-pedophile non-criminals who receive the same treatment.

scifibum

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2019, 01:28:00 AM »
We need to drive them away from the main platforms. We have to consider how integral social media and video sharing platforms have been in using algorithms to lead viewers into such radicalizing rabbit holes in the first place. In order to avoid recommending everyone watch "Gangnam Style" the recommendation algorithms try to show people "like that last thing you watched, but more so" and you get from trying to figure out why flat earthers even exist right into the deep conspiracy stuff pretty much automatically. There is literally an algorithmic pathway from gamergate -> alt right -> neo fascism. Holistic medicine -> anti-vaxx -> big pharma is trying to turn you into a zombie.

I'm all for deplatforming the grifters who are trying to profit from these algorithmic cancers.

Crunch

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2019, 07:16:26 AM »
As long as I’m the one that gets to decide who’s the grifter and who’s not, it sounds great.

TheDrake

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2019, 07:39:35 AM »
So to clarify, do you agree, or do you think those things should never happen and that just the ones that cross the line should be referred to law enforcement? Do you think they should be able to have a rally in the park without being counter protested against, shouted at, and filmed?

I think they should be fully exposed, shouted down and countered.

I don't mean to cause more trouble, but I'll go ahead and do it. Would you agree with your own proposition if it was posed in regards to Planned Parenthood and people who believe in woman's right to abortion? As I ask this please note that I'm not making a positive argument but rather gauging how much you believe that these tactics are completely legitimate for true believers. And also note that we're not at the moment talking about law (as Grant would have) but about enforcement of moral decency.

So if pro-life advocates try to accomplish all the things you just listed, you will cheer for them in utilizing the tools of goodness? And I would urge you to avoid answering with "but it's different because they're wrong" because that's the whole issues: they will say the same about your side. The pedophiles may be low-hanging fruit, but there are plenty of "them" around at the moment that we can easily find examples of non-pedophile non-criminals who receive the same treatment.

That's a fair and insightful question. If 95% of the population thought abortion was wrong, and they were losing money hand over fist under public pressure, as much as I might not be happy with them losing their free and easy voice, I'd accept it. Then I'd immediately make donations to their private charity, publicize their direct web link, and hand out flyers.

I wouldn't whimper about suppression of my ideas any more than I crab today about theism penetrating most aspects of public life.

TheDrake

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2019, 08:56:43 AM »
Speaking of bedbugs, this from Breitbart:

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Schwartz, the only person Pitts, Jr., names as involved in the effort, is a Jewish conservative and ally of President Donald Trump.

The use of the word “termites” echoes antisemitism from Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, who has recently used the word to attack Jewish people.

So to recap some people who may have commented on both? Bedbug - ha ha ha snowflake. Termite - anti-semite! Do I have that right?

D.W.

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2019, 11:55:02 AM »
I think it's a safe bet to not refer to any group of people as insects, vermin, a plague or an infestation.

Calling any individual one of those things?  That should be fine.   ;D

TheDeamon

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2019, 01:14:13 PM »
I think it's a safe bet to not refer to any group of people as insects, vermin, a plague or an infestation.

Calling any individual one of those things?  That should be fine.   ;D

Unless they belong to a protected class, in which case the insult against that person will be taken as an insult (or dog whistle) aimed at all of them.

TheDrake

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2019, 03:59:51 PM »
I think it's a safe bet to not refer to any group of people as insects, vermin, a plague or an infestation.

Calling any individual one of those things?  That should be fine.   ;D

You're a cockroach.

D.W.

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2019, 04:07:55 PM »
 :'(

TheDrake

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Re: Even Piers Morgan is saying Liberals are unbearable.
« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2019, 04:15:19 PM »
Insects are safer than simians in that regard.

google: senator calls someone monkey