Author Topic: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:  (Read 110740 times)

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1200 on: August 20, 2020, 03:59:58 PM »
Quote
“I’ve heard that these are people (QAnon) that love our country, I don’t really know anything about it other than they do supposedly like me.”

A reporter pressed him “It is this belief that you are secretly saving the world from this Satanic cult of pedophiles and cannibals,” she said. “Does that sound like something that you are behind?”

Quote
“Well, I haven’t heard that, but is that supposed to be a bad thing or a good thing?”
“If I can help save the world from problems I’m willing to do it — I’m willing to put myself out there,”

Trump is appears likes anyone that likes him, endorsing movements he know admits to knowing nothing about. But hey they like him so all good. 

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1201 on: August 20, 2020, 06:44:43 PM »
I love the irony that Donald Trump, the one Q-Anon reportedly said was about to swoop down and arrest all these high-ranking, famous pedophiles, says, “If I can help save the world from problems, I’m willing to do it — I’m willing to put myself out there.”

You just know he's going to be so much help.  ;D

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1202 on: August 20, 2020, 11:14:37 PM »
I love the irony that Donald Trump, the one Q-Anon reportedly said was about to swoop down and arrest all these high-ranking, famous pedophiles, says, “If I can help save the world from problems, I’m willing to do it — I’m willing to put myself out there.”

You just know he's going to be so much help.  ;D

Well in the case of the Epstein investigations into that material he was the only associate of his who kicked into "What can I do to help?" mode upon learning about what was going on(by being questioned). Which makes it the bigger irony when it comes to people trying to link Epstein to Trump, investigators (and victims) involved in that process have only had good things to say about Trump on that matter.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1203 on: August 21, 2020, 05:50:04 PM »
1. Your redress for that is, or should be, in the courts for that. That's something that can be addressed legislatively.
2. What has often been ignored in all of this attention to police brutality towards minorities(or even whites for that matter) is that for every person who dies in police custody, several more police officers have died at the hands of someone they were trying to detain/question.
3. Getting violent with the cops is never a good option, and society should be attacking on two fronts, neither of which are being addressed by BLM and the like at this time.
4. People need to relax when dealing with the cops, do NOT encourage or foster an environment where an encounter with the police starts inducing panic attacks or fight/flight responses.

1. The executive power to commute and pardon is defined constitutionally, is it not?
2. In 2019, there were 48 police officers who were killed in the line of duty as a result of felonius acts (41 others died in accidents) whereas more than 1000 people were shot and killed by police. 
3. This ignores that not getting violent is also not necessarily a good option (see shopping while black, playing while black and sleeping while black, etc).  BLM is protesting a specific thing.  They are not raising funds to fight cancer, they are not protesting against religious symbols in government buildings, nor are they protesting animal cruelty.  Why would you expect people who are drawing attention to racial inequity, and specifically how racialized minorities are being treated by society, to also protest against violence in society generally, and against the police specifically?  This is one of those excuses brought up so often to ignore having to act on valid points brought up by righteous movements.
4. This is almost hilarious: we live in a society where nearly every Black mother and father have 'the talk' with their children explaining how they will be stopped by the police and how they must act in order to survive the interaction.

Okay found someone who referenced the undlying stat on the lethality of encounters.

48 officers died in the line of duty as the result of a felony in 2019 as per your claim.

The Washington Post evidently reported 13 unarmed black men were killed by the police in 2019. So it still stands that roughly 3.5 times as many police died in the line of duty in 2019 than unarmed black men did while in the custody of the police.

But I will also take hit on phrasing my statement in an overly broad manner as well, as police are obviously going to shoot armed persons that seriously threaten them.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1204 on: August 21, 2020, 06:08:05 PM »
Which makes it the bigger irony when it comes to people trying to link Epstein to Trump, investigators (and victims) involved in that process have only had good things to say about Trump on that matter.

Well this took about 15 seconds to refute.

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"Doe also claims Epstein introduced her to Donald Trump at Mar-A-Lago when she was only 14 years old," reports The Daily Beast. "'This is a good one, right?' Epstein asked the future president, who allegedly smiled and nodded before sharing a chuckle with the depraved hedge funder."

But I think I know how this plays out. Any of Epsteins accusers who have something bad to say about Trump are liars, right?

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1205 on: August 21, 2020, 06:55:25 PM »
Quote
"Doe also claims Epstein introduced her to Donald Trump at Mar-A-Lago when she was only 14 years old," reports The Daily Beast. "'This is a good one, right?' Epstein asked the future president, who allegedly smiled and nodded before sharing a chuckle with the depraved hedge funder."

But I think I know how this plays out. Any of Epsteins accusers who have something bad to say about Trump are liars, right?

If that's all you've got, you're reaching. How Epstein meant it, and how Trump took it could have been very different things, and context matters. Most people aren't going to think very hard on 14 year old models or actresses in general, or someone with influence using one for arm candy. So long as they're only "arm candy." Which also doesn't get into the matter that I'd imagine "Doe" was one of several girls/young women that Epstein brought along to the party or otherwise "found" while there and called to Trump's attention for whatever reason.

On the whole, it is about on par with people jumping at the Airport photo of Bill Clinton with a then 22 year old Epstein accuser and using that to "prove" Clinton was in on the whole underage thing on Epstein's Island(last I checked 22 is far from being a minor of any legal stripe). Plenty of other smoke going on around Bill on the whole matter with Epstein, but that photo certainly isn't one of them.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1206 on: August 21, 2020, 09:13:11 PM »
We're not really debating whether Trump was creepy with underage girls, are we?  I mean, he actually bragged about being able to walk through the Miss Universe changing room while the girls were naked and getting dressed, something he admitted no other man was allowed to do: "You know, no men are anywhere. And I’m allowed to go in because I’m the owner of the pageant".

But that's not the point, is it?  The claim was that all the victims involved in the process have only good things to say about Trump.  Clearly, Doe stating that Trump nodding, smiling then sharing a joke with Epstein after Epstein characterized Doe as "a good one, right" is NOT only having good things to say about him.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1207 on: August 21, 2020, 10:36:06 PM »
We're not really debating whether Trump was creepy with underage girls, are we?  I mean, he actually bragged about being able to walk through the Miss Universe changing room while the girls were naked and getting dressed, something he admitted no other man was allowed to do: "You know, no men are anywhere. And I’m allowed to go in because I’m the owner of the pageant".

But that's not the point, is it?  The claim was that all the victims involved in the process have only good things to say about Trump.  Clearly, Doe stating that Trump nodding, smiling then sharing a joke with Epstein after Epstein characterized Doe as "a good one, right" is NOT only having good things to say about him.

Epstein's case involves sex trafficking in underaged girls.

The best you've got on Trump is him talking about perving on young women in the dressing rooms and claiming equivalence?

Looking clearly was on Trump's menu, but touching wasn't (within that context at least). He also hasn't been reported as doing anything to expand that "franchise" to anyone else. Epstein on the other hand, was look, and touch, and inviting others to participate as well. Very different ballgame being played between the two men.

But then, I also think certain aspects of the Epstein situation was and still is overblown, the underaged sex aspect certainly is not something to hand-wave away. I'm probably more in line with the European outlook on being mildly annoyed at some of the things the US press has fixated on with Epstein: Underaged teenage girls and (adult) young women sunbathing topless or even nude. The scandal, better stay away from the beaches in Southern France... Or any other foreign beach that cater specifically to Europeans, although you're more likely to find the middle aged or senior citizen variety doing the same thing themselves if you're on a (semi-)public beach.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1208 on: August 21, 2020, 10:41:08 PM »
You claimed the victims had nothing but good to say about Trump.  TheDrake showed you an example of a victim who had something not good about Trump. 

Why ignore this by making it about "the best you've got"?  Just own that you overstated your position and move on.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1209 on: August 21, 2020, 11:10:26 PM »
You claimed the victims had nothing but good to say about Trump.  TheDrake showed you an example of a victim who had something not good about Trump. 

Why ignore this by making it about "the best you've got"?  Just own that you overstated your position and move on.

All the Epstein victim had to say was she met Trump at a Trump venue and Epstein made a suggestive response that Trump gave a jocular response to. It also lacks context as to the age of the Epstein victim in question at the time(like the photo of a 22 year old giving Clinton a massage), and other factors too.

In any case, what was presented doesn't even really qualify as damning for that matter. Unless she was wearing a sign saying "I'm underage and being trafficked sexually by Epstein, please help me" and forgot to mention it. She could have been 14, she could have been 18, or 20, she could have looked like a 20-something while actually being 17. Vital information is missing about her encounter with Trump, and even at that point, there then is the question of "What did else did you expect Trump to do? Card her?(ignoring that with Epstein's resources, a fake ID is probably trivial) Take her into a private side room and ask if she's being coerced into being there?"

Now the reminder about Trump's conduct in regards to Miss Teen USA is another matter, but it also is unrelated to Jeffery Epstein as he wasn't connected to that pageant...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 11:14:00 PM by TheDeamon »

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1210 on: August 22, 2020, 01:29:24 AM »
And as a reminder to Donald and others this is what TheDrake was attempting to refute:
Well in the case of the Epstein investigations into that material he was the only associate of his who kicked into "What can I do to help?" mode upon learning about what was going on(by being questioned). Which makes it the bigger irony when it comes to people trying to link Epstein to Trump, investigators (and victims) involved in that process have only had good things to say about Trump on that matter.

He provided a redacted excerpt from the testimony of 1 witness whose testimony as it related to Trump specifically consists of "I met him briefly while 'working' with Epstein as we attended an event at a Trump business location, but the encounter was very brief and nothing else happened." ... And then dredging up Miss Teen USA which had no involvement with Epstein.

The Mir-a-lago encounter is almost on par with someone who had been abducted into the human sex trade naming (random forum member) as someone they met during a party when (random forum member) was attending a college party as the "date" of one of (random forum member)'s buddies. Some baudy comments were then exchanged upon (random forum member) meeting her.. Now (random forum member) may have suspected that the date was a hooker at the time, but now you're saying (random forum member) should have also somehow known the hooker was an involuntary participant in the human sex trade?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 01:37:14 AM by TheDeamon »

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1211 on: August 22, 2020, 12:01:07 PM »
I love the irony that Donald Trump, the one Q-Anon reportedly said was about to swoop down and arrest all these high-ranking, famous pedophiles, says, “If I can help save the world from problems, I’m willing to do it — I’m willing to put myself out there.”

You just know he's going to be so much help.  ;D

Well in the case of the Epstein investigations into that material he was the only associate of his who kicked into "What can I do to help?" mode upon learning about what was going on(by being questioned). Which makes it the bigger irony when it comes to people trying to link Epstein to Trump, investigators (and victims) involved in that process have only had good things to say about Trump on that matter.

You're completely missing the irony, Deamon.  For years, Q-Anon has been saying how Trump knows who these pedophiles are, and at any minute is going to have a mass arrest of all of them, and expose to the world the entire conspiracy.

And when a reporter asks him about Q-Anon, he says, "Oh, uh, well, gee, yeah, ah, of course, I'd be willing to help.  Tell me what can I do?"   ::)

I'm just imagining how comforting that is to Q-Anon followers.  It's like Christ coming back to Earth and asking some apocalyptic Christians, "Hey, I'm back.  Is there anything you'd like me to do?"  ;D

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1212 on: August 22, 2020, 12:27:19 PM »
You're completely missing the irony, Deamon.  For years, Q-Anon has been saying how Trump knows who these pedophiles are, and at any minute is going to have a mass arrest of all of them, and expose to the world the entire conspiracy.

And when a reporter asks him about Q-Anon, he says, "Oh, uh, well, gee, yeah, ah, of course, I'd be willing to help.  Tell me what can I do?"   ::)

I'm just imagining how comforting that is to Q-Anon followers.  It's like Christ coming back to Earth and asking some apocalyptic Christians, "Hey, I'm back.  Is there anything you'd like me to do?"  ;D

Q-Anon is a bit "special" to say the least.

In any case, Donald Trump is all about Donald Trump. In all reality and probability, Trump probably hews closely to another pop-culture icon in the form of William Shatner that (reportedly) still hadn't clued into the fact that George Takei was gay by the time that filming of the original TOS series had its wrap party. Even though whenever they had events where cast/crew were able to bring their wives/girlfriends to things, George always brought another guy. But in Shatner's defense, hey it was the 1960's. IIRC, when George did come out of the closet on that, Shatner was the only cast member to be taken by surprise.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1213 on: August 22, 2020, 10:19:23 PM »
Another day, another lie...

Quote
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

The Democrats took the word GOD out of the Pledge of Allegiance at the Democrat National Convention. At first I thought they made a mistake, but it wasn’t. It was done on purpose. Remember Evangelical Christians, and ALL, this is where they are coming from-it’s done. Vote Nov 3!

USA Today Fact Check

cherrypoptart

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1214 on: August 23, 2020, 02:22:06 AM »
"During two of those meetings – the LGBTQ caucus meeting and the Muslim Delegates Assembly – when the pledge was recited, "under God" was omitted, Snopes found. David Brody, chief political analyst at Christian Broadcasting Network, posted both videos to Twitter."

So what he said was partially true. It wasn't taken out most of the times they said it but it was taken out a couple of times that they said it. I wonder why the Muslims wanted to take it out since supposedly they worship the same God as the Christians and Jews. I guess it's understandable why the LGBTQ caucus would take it out though many of them call themselves Christians. And just to have it both ways, it's also interesting that the Democrats every other time kept it in even though it was exclusionary to non-Judeo-Christians and a slap in the face to all atheists and agnostics. If they demand it be taken out of schools then why would they for the most part keep it in their convention?

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1215 on: August 23, 2020, 09:22:34 AM »
Another day, another lie...

Quote
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

The Democrats took the word GOD out of the Pledge of Allegiance at the Democrat National Convention. At first I thought they made a mistake, but it wasn’t. It was done on purpose. Remember Evangelical Christians, and ALL, this is where they are coming from-it’s done. Vote Nov 3!

USA Today Fact Check

Cherry already hit you with this in part, but I'm going to hit you with your own source. Also it should be noted Trump was careful in his phrasing. He said "the Democrats" NOT "The DNC" so trying to falsify his statement is impossible to do if he can point to ANY Democrats at the convention who omitted "god" from the pledge... Which USA Today does in fact validate.

Quote
Some caucus members left out "one nation under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance during individual meetings convened by allied groups. It is misleading to say it was intentionally removed or "the DNC omitted it." Videos show that the phrase was included during each night's convention program.

Weird, they even had to rephrase Trump's quote from "The Democrats" to mean "The DNC" in order to falsify the statement....

I mean, Trump isn't known for his coherency in a lot of cases but turning...


Quote
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

The Democrats took the word GOD out of the Pledge of Allegiance at the Democrat National Convention. At first I thought they made a mistake, but it wasn’t. It was done on purpose. Remember Evangelical Christians, and ALL, this is where they are coming from-it’s done. Vote Nov 3!

into


Quote
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

The Democratic National Convention took the word GOD out of the Pledge of Allegiance at the Democrat National Convention. At first I thought they made a mistake, but it wasn’t. It was done on purpose. Remember Evangelical Christians, and ALL, this is where they are coming from-it’s done. Vote Nov 3!

Is just weird in the extreme.

If he meant it that way, it would have probably read:

Quote
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

The Democratic National Convention took the word GOD out of the Pledge of Allegiance at the Democrat National Convention. At first I thought they made a mistake, but it wasn’t. It was done on purpose. Remember Evangelical Christians, and ALL, this is where they are coming from-it’s done. Vote Nov 3!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 09:29:21 AM by TheDeamon »

LetterRip

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1216 on: August 23, 2020, 10:04:30 AM »
Cherry already hit you with this in part, but I'm going to hit you with your own source. Also it should be noted Trump was careful in his phrasing. He said "the Democrats" NOT "The DNC" so trying to falsify his statement is impossible to do if he can point to ANY Democrats at the convention who omitted "god" from the pledge... Which USA Today does in fact validate.

So would you be comfortable with similar statements about 'The Republicans' regarding racism, misogyny, and bigotry?

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1217 on: August 23, 2020, 10:09:30 AM »
Cherry already hit you with this in part, but I'm going to hit you with your own source. Also it should be noted Trump was careful in his phrasing. He said "the Democrats" NOT "The DNC" so trying to falsify his statement is impossible to do if he can point to ANY Democrats at the convention who omitted "god" from the pledge... Which USA Today does in fact validate.

So would you be comfortable with similar statements about 'The Republicans' regarding racism, misogyny, and bigotry?

Valid enough if constrained to their National Convention, of course, first you have to find (event) leading attendees who happen to do those things while at the convention.

And there was plenty of evidence of misandry and bigotry(towards whites) in the DNC if you really want to go down that road. ;)

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1218 on: August 23, 2020, 10:15:10 AM »
On another note: This example also reminds me of the Romney vs Obama debates in 2012 where "fact checking" started to really become a thing. And how you really need to watch the "fact checkers" for doing "creative interpretation" things like this.

where Romney commenting about Oil production on Federal Lands being at the lowest level in many years gets fact checked as false (even though it was true) because "Domestic Oil Production" was at a high not seen in decades, due to oil exploration on private lands.

cherrypoptart

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1219 on: August 23, 2020, 10:48:47 AM »
"And there was plenty of evidence of misandry and bigotry(towards whites) in the DNC if you really want to go down that road."

I was thinking about bringing this up in the Biden platform thread and I still may but since it was brought up here I'm going to second the motion, or observation.

https://www.demconvention.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-07-31-Democratic-Party-Platform-For-Distribution.pdf

"We will invest in low-income communities, urban and rural areas, and communities of color by
strengthening the Community Reinvestment Act, improving federal support and access to credit
for women- and minority-owned small businesses"

I've seen something along the same lines of promoting and encouraging entrepreneurship by women and people of color.

That's the money quote right there.  "Women and people of color."

Pretty much says it all.

They are so proud of their racism and misandry against white men that they boast of it and are running on it as a primary plank in their platform.

It's the crabs in a bucket attitude that believes the only way to get out is to pull or hold somebody else down especially when they might succeed.

It doesn't even make any sense that Joe Biden is running as a white man. By the logic of the Democrats and his own platform he should already have stepped aside to let a person of color do the job like a voice actress who quit her job because she was white and the character she was voicing was only half white and the other half black. I'm not sure what happened with that, if they had to get a half white and half black voice actress to do it or if it was okay for an all black person to take over.

The only way Democrats can think of to help women and people of color is to put a boot on the neck of white men.

Black columnist Walter Williams sees it. The article is from January but the writing has been on the wall for quite a while now. The Democrat platform includes Black Lives matter and Williams has a quote from one of the co-founders that she is "over white men running the country."

godanriver.com/opinion/columnists/williams_walter/the-new-racism-against-white-people/article_7a7aab63-4b64-5730-9cc2-1d48c1d8795c.html



DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1220 on: August 23, 2020, 04:27:32 PM »
"The" Democrats is not the same as "some democrats" or "a few" Democrats, nor even "the Democrats in this particular meeting".  If he had meant either of the latter three, he could have said those words. 

Of course, if he meant to be sloppy, knowing he meant to refer to just two instances but still choosing the words he did knowing they would be 'misinterpreted', that's just a different flavour of dishonesty.


TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1221 on: August 23, 2020, 07:27:06 PM »
"The" Democrats is not the same as "some democrats" or "a few" Democrats, nor even "the Democrats in this particular meeting".  If he had meant either of the latter three, he could have said those words. 

Of course, if he meant to be sloppy, knowing he meant to refer to just two instances but still choosing the words he did knowing they would be 'misinterpreted', that's just a different flavour of dishonesty.

Now you're playing self-defeating rhetorical games on this. You do realize that "The Democrats" was the start of the sentence? Most people capitalize the first word of a sentence. So your claim is ambiguous at best.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1222 on: August 23, 2020, 07:38:44 PM »
"Some" Democrats is not the same as "the" Democrats.  Better?  There is no substantive difference in the point being made.  "the" Democrats at the Democrat National Convention simply cannot be made to mean "only a small subset" or "at only 2  of many meetings" at the Democrat National Convention.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1223 on: August 23, 2020, 07:41:18 PM »
Yes, the Democrats took God out of the Pledge of Allegiance. That is not disputed. The Dems all stood up and repeated the same words, so it certainly was scripted, neh? Why make an issue out of a basic foundational element? Someone in the party may disagree with so doing, but it doesn't matter. It was done and has been done for quite awhile. They are well-known for the "wink-and-nod." This is the idea that whatever a Democrat politician says for wholesale distribution, the Democrats, themselves, know not to take it seriously.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1224 on: August 23, 2020, 08:08:11 PM »
"Some" Democrats is not the same as "the" Democrats.  Better?  There is no substantive difference in the point being made.  "the" Democrats at the Democrat National Convention simply cannot be made to mean "only a small subset" or "at only 2  of many meetings" at the Democrat National Convention.

Still playing semantics games.

The people at the park were playing baseball.
vs
People at the park were playing baseball.

Are the two statements substantively different? Does either statement indicate everyone at the park was playing baseball?

Now replace "people" with Republicans or Democrats as you prefer. Does the statement change in any meaningful way?

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1225 on: August 23, 2020, 09:12:08 PM »
The people at the park were playing baseball.
vs
People at the park were playing baseball.

Are the two statements substantively different? Does either statement indicate everyone at the park was playing baseball?

Now replace "people" with Republicans or Democrats as you prefer. Does the statement change in any meaningful way?
Yes, those two statements are substantively different.  Yes, "the people at the park" means everyone there, absent some other context. For instance, "some people went to the park; others went to the cinema. The people at the park were playing baseball." Then it would be in the context of the "some people" from the previous sentences.

Now, do you sincerely believe, when Trump said "The Democrats took the word GOD out of the Pledge of Allegiance at the Democrat National Convention" he meant to convey that the words were only omitted twice of the approximately 40 times it was recited? Honestly?

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1226 on: August 23, 2020, 09:51:45 PM »
Yes, the Democrats took God out of the Pledge of Allegiance. That is not disputed. The Dems all stood up and repeated the same words, so it certainly was scripted, neh? Why make an issue out of a basic foundational element? Someone in the party may disagree with so doing, but it doesn't matter. It was done and has been done for quite awhile. They are well-known for the "wink-and-nod." This is the idea that whatever a Democrat politician says for wholesale distribution, the Democrats, themselves, know not to take it seriously.

God shouldnt have been crammed in the pledge in the first place.

Fenring

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1227 on: August 24, 2020, 12:12:54 AM »
Yes, those two statements are substantively different.  Yes, "the people at the park" means everyone there, absent some other context. For instance, "some people went to the park; others went to the cinema. The people at the park were playing baseball." Then it would be in the context of the "some people" from the previous sentences.

To be fair, there is another interpretation of "the people at the park played baseball", which is that the sole sport played at the park was baseball, but not implying that every person there was involved. The context you provided leaves it ambiguous because we don't know the topic at hand. This example may make it clearer:

Some people were at the recreational center, and some at the park. At the recreational center there were games of volleyball, baseball, and basketball taking place. The people at the park were playing baseball.

In this context the issue would not be whether 100% of the people at either location were involved in the named sports, but rather which sports were going on is the issue: three sports at the recreational center, and in the park just baseball.

Now I tend to agree with you that Trump's quote does try to assign 'blame' to "the Democrats", which makes it sound like the group as a whole is responsible. But on the other hand in the sense above of trying to single out a sole activity that gets a spotlight, semantically it could be taken to mean that 'this went on there' as a special mention.

I suppose if we're being honest people will also tend to blame the broader group for what a smaller faction within it does. For instance if a few evangelical groups made a statement to the effect that gays are evil, it shouldn't surprise you to find liberal bloggers writing that "the evangelicals continue to call the gays evil." I doubt you would opt to penalize the bloggers for not specifying that it's only some of the evangelicals and not all of them, probably in part because you'd be tempted to blame the whole group for views that are at minimum not too many steps away from that in the first place, thus giving room for the more extreme elements to say such things and not be shunned universally.

To me the better criticism of Trump's tweet might be that if he's pandering to people who would be offended at this in the first place then that's worse than some technical inaccuracy about exactly how many times it was done at the convention.


yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1229 on: August 24, 2020, 09:13:14 AM »
Quote
Trump will speak every night in prime time, his campaign has said; his adult children will all make speeches; and, in a norm-breaking move criticized by government ethics experts, Trump will deliver his acceptance speech from the White House lawn.

Just more evidence the Republican party is becoming the party of Trump. Trump is the prime time speaker every night and his children are all giving speeches.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1230 on: August 24, 2020, 09:25:20 AM »
To be fair, there is another interpretation of "the people at the park played baseball", which is that the sole sport played at the park was baseball, but not implying that every person there was involved.
OK, so in this analogy, the "sole sport being played" is "reciting the oath, absent the reference to God", but that maybe not every person there was involved in that sport?  This implies that no other sport is being played at the park, so in this analogy, reciting the pledge with the reference to God left in was not "being played" by anybody at "the park".

That really isn't any better.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1231 on: August 25, 2020, 07:20:00 AM »
Kimberly Guilfoyle, Donald Jr's girlfriend, at the RNC Convention, on Biden and Harris:

Quote
[they] will fundamentally change this nation.

They want to destroy this country, and everything that we have fought for and hold dear. They want to steal your liberty, your freedom. They want to control what you see and think, and believe, so they can control how you live.

What is scarier; that this speech was almost certainly vetted prior to her giving it, or that to many, many people, there is nothing particularly controversial about any of it...?

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1232 on: August 25, 2020, 11:09:21 AM »
It is scary. such statements are irresponsible.

The GOP doesn't plan to release a policy platform for 2020 one wonders what is it that the GOP holds dear? I am convinced that many followers of Trump, Trumpism have lost sight of what they are fighting for and are aiming for.


TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1233 on: August 25, 2020, 11:52:31 AM »
The GOP doesn't plan to release a policy platform for 2020 one wonders what is it that the GOP holds dear? I am convinced that many followers of Trump, Trumpism have lost sight of what they are fighting for and are aiming for.

The GOP rubber stamped Trump's campaign platform as the GOP platform for this election cycle. And Trump does have a platform, it's already been posted to the Party Platform thread.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1234 on: August 26, 2020, 10:26:29 AM »
So Grant,

Having chronicled Trump’s Clintonisms, and given your apparent appreciation for the frustration experienced by an aghast conservative electorate during 1993-2001, what will be your analysis of Trump’s 2020 re-election?

cherrypoptart

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1235 on: August 26, 2020, 05:00:19 PM »
Going back to Trump possibly refusing to concede and how bad that would be for the country...

"Politics

The Independent

Hillary Clinton tells Joe Biden not to concede election ‘under any circumstances’"

and Al Gore chimes in:

"Politics

The Daily Beast

Al Gore: If Trump Refuses to Concede, the Military Would Run Him Out"

It's hilarious that Trump refusing to concede is a political apocalypse but Biden should not concede "under any circumstances".




TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1236 on: August 26, 2020, 05:16:55 PM »
As usual, you're comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps you didn't read past the retweeted headlines.

Gore:

Quote
“When you say there were potentially some other moves,” he told Adler, “I researched them, and it turns out there’s no intermediate step between a final Supreme Court decision and violent revolution.”

But what if Trump declares the results illegitimate, Adler asked, and demands to stay on as president? Or does Gore believe the former reality star would concede defeat in the same spirit that he did?

“I don’t know,” Bill Clinton’s former vice president—these days a fit-looking, silver-haired 72-year-old mega-millionaire—answered with a mirthless chuckle. “But it’s important to say that it’s really not up to him. I hear people saying, ‘Well, would he accept that decision?’ Well, it doesn’t matter because it’s not up to him. Because at noon on January 20th, if a new president is elected… the police force, the Secret Service, the military, all of the executive branch officers, will respond to the command and the direction of the new president.”

He's being asked about whether Trump would concede once he had run out of legal options, as Gore himself did after the Supreme Court ruled. To which, he correctly answers that if Trump unconstitutionally refused to step aside, the military would fulfill their oath.

As for Hillary:

Quote
Hillary Clinton issued a warning for Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden in a new interview released Tuesday, urging the former vice president to not concede defeat on the night of the Nov. 3 election — no matter the circumstances.

"Joe Biden should not concede under any circumstances," Clinton said. "Because I think this is going to drag out, and eventually, I do believe he will win, if we don't give an inch and if we are as focused and relentless as the other side is."

Clinton suggested the election will be "close," accusing Republicans of trying to tamper with the results by "messing up absentee balloting" to secure a narrow advantage in the Electoral College.

"We've got to have a massive legal operation," she said. "And I know the Biden campaign is working on that."

On the night of the election, he should not concede under any circumstances. Hardly controversial, since everyone is saying so due to large mail in volume.  And that the setting aside of ballots could be manipulated and that they should take legal means to determine if such tampering occurred.

cherrypoptart

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1237 on: August 26, 2020, 05:28:08 PM »
"Perhaps you didn't read past the retweeted headlines."

Correct. Though I saw it on the yahoo site it is true that I only read the headlines. Since they disabled the comments I read very few of the stories anymore unless they are about science. If they still had the comments someone probably would have pointed out the same things and after reading them I might not have gone off half-cocked.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1238 on: August 26, 2020, 07:35:10 PM »
Headlines suck. They are hardly intended any more to capture the essence of a story, but to scream at you to click on something! I don't know how many times I look at one and.... do exactly what they were designed to make me do. *click* - oh, that's not what they're saying at all.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1239 on: August 26, 2020, 08:18:48 PM »
As usual, you're comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps you didn't read past the retweeted headlines.

Gore:

Quote
“When you say there were potentially some other moves,” he told Adler, “I researched them, and it turns out there’s no intermediate step between a final Supreme Court decision and violent revolution.”

But what if Trump declares the results illegitimate, Adler asked, and demands to stay on as president? Or does Gore believe the former reality star would concede defeat in the same spirit that he did?

“I don’t know,” Bill Clinton’s former vice president—these days a fit-looking, silver-haired 72-year-old mega-millionaire—answered with a mirthless chuckle. “But it’s important to say that it’s really not up to him. I hear people saying, ‘Well, would he accept that decision?’ Well, it doesn’t matter because it’s not up to him. Because at noon on January 20th, if a new president is elected… the police force, the Secret Service, the military, all of the executive branch officers, will respond to the command and the direction of the new president.”

Gore didn't look far enough.

1876.

Congress has a say in the matter as well. The Constitution is very clear that Congress has to authenticate the electoral votes as well, and SCotUS doesn''t get a say on that one. Nothing prevents congress from voting to invalidate electoral votes from say, Michigan for example.

And if it so happens that because the EC votes from Michigan being disqualified result in a failure to reach 270 EC votes, then it falls on Congress to select the next PotUS...

Of course, I guess there is some obscure provisions there where the house members are required to vote by state delegation in that scenario, and at present that would all but assure a Trump win despite the democrat majority in Congress (because most of their majority comes from a handful of states) as republicans comprise the majority of members in the majority of state congressional delegations in the House. So for the Democrats that option is an immediate failure for them.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1240 on: August 26, 2020, 08:30:56 PM »
OK, it's been 24 hours. 

The president used the White House as a backdrop, while pardoning a convicted felon and later broadcasting it during the Republican convention (he also broadcast a naturalization ceremony, I understand).  I won't say "how shocking", since the administration is so used to abusing the federal government and its infrastructure for political purposes.

It's also been 24 hours since the secretary of state presented a political speech, again during the Republican convention, streamed from Israel. Again, this is not exactly shocking. It should be, but Pompeo crossed those bridges a long time ago.

What is disappointing, although again not shocking, is the absolute silence of the law-and-order contingent here, and the self-professed champions of ethical activity.  It's unclear whether they are simply too ashamed to object, whether they cannot even see the legal and ethical issues involved, or they see them for what they are, but either accept or even support unethical activity in the support of their own political preferences.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1241 on: August 26, 2020, 08:33:27 PM »
OK, it's been 24 hours. 

The president used the White House as a backdrop, while pardoning a convicted felon during the Republican convention.  I won't say "how shocking", since the administration is so used to abusing the federal government and its infrastructure for political purposes.

The guy was a convicted bank robber, sounds "dastardly enough" although he evidently high on drugs when he did it? So I'm guessing he was one of the note passers, not one of the armed guys.

But he also founded a non-profit in 2009(when he was released from prison for the bank robbery) focused on helping ex-con's reintegrate into society, a program which is reportedly very successful?

I thought Democrats were all about giving felons their right to vote back? This guy certainly seems to have cleaned up his act, and helped a lot of others clean up theirs as well. Seems he kind of earned it?

Quote
It's also been 24 hours since the secretary of state presented a political speech, again during the Republican convention, streamed from Israel. Again, this is not exactly shocking. It should be, but Pompeo crossed those bridges a long time ago.

I'm not seeing the problem? Oh right, Israel.  ::)

Quote
What is disappointing, although again not shocking, is the absolute silence of the law-and-order contingent here, and the self-professed champions of ethical activity.  It's unclear whether they are simply too ashamed to object, whether they cannot even see the legal and ethical issues involved, or they see them for what they are, but either accept or even support unethical activity in the support of their own political preferences.

Honestly, it's mostly because I've actively stopped caring, and much of what has you guys jumping and screaming right now about Trump reminds me very much about myself and others back in 2012 in regards to Obama. Only unlike Obama, Trump has an extremely hostile press to call him out on his activities, even if they tend to make anthills into Mount Everest.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1242 on: August 26, 2020, 09:01:17 PM »
Really?

The pardon is not the issue.  The issue is using the White House as a prop for completely political purposes. And apparently, at least two of the people in the naturalization ceremony weren't even told, never mind asked permission, to be used as human political props during the RNC.

And please - Israel is not the issue. Are you suggesting that I have an issue with Israel, and somehow, that I would mention Israel as a reason for Pompeo's action to be indictable?  Roll eyes indeed.  Try thinking first.

The secretary of state, while in a foreign country, made a political speech.  You can argue about the legality of it (although in a legal memo distributed to all state department employees, the following line was actually bolded: "Senate-confirmed Presidential appointees may not even attend a political party convention or convention-related event".)  You can quibble about what the word "attend" means, but the intent is absolutely clear.  For further evidence of what is considered acceptable, the rules concerning U.S. diplomats outside the United States are more restrictive than for those on US territory: state department diplomats - so long as a) they are not senate appointed presidential appointees and b) they are in the United States proper, and c) they only attend as spectators - are allowed to attend a "political party convention or convention-related event", "a partisan political rally, fundraising function, election party, meet-the-candidate event, or other political gathering as a spectator."

Again the intent is absolutely clear, and there is also a general understanding and tradition that State Department diplomats, especially internationally, shun displaying domestic political preferences in order for the country to speak with a single voice to other countries.

That you didn't immediately see this issue is emblematic of the problem to which I was earlier referring.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1243 on: August 26, 2020, 09:10:36 PM »
Honestly, it's mostly because I've actively stopped caring, and much of what has you guys jumping and screaming right now about Trump reminds me very much about myself and others back in 2012 in regards to Obama. Only unlike Obama, Trump has an extremely hostile press to call him out on his activities, even if they tend to make anthills into Mount Everest.
I completely get that - in that people in the Trump campaign and administration have already experienced 3 times the number of indictments in just a single term as Nixon did in two and a half terms,  and of those not indicted, convicted or who plead guilty, a large number of former senior Trump administration officials are characterizing the president as unfit, if not actively supporting Biden.  The cognitive dissonance in believing that the media must be lying, while being presented with so much evidence of Trump's inability to lead the country, it must be very difficult and avoidance might actually be helpful as a short term solution.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1244 on: August 26, 2020, 09:13:08 PM »
Press wouldn't have anything to say if Clinton gave her speech in Bosnia, I'm sure. Wouldn't even mention it.  ::)

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1245 on: August 26, 2020, 10:52:36 PM »
The secretary of state, while in a foreign country, made a political speech.  You can argue about the legality of it (although in a legal memo distributed to all state department employees, the following line was actually bolded: "Senate-confirmed Presidential appointees may not even attend a political party convention or convention-related event".)  You can quibble about what the word "attend" means, but the intent is absolutely clear.  For further evidence of what is considered acceptable, the rules concerning U.S. diplomats outside the United States are more restrictive than for those on US territory: state department diplomats - so long as a) they are not senate appointed presidential appointees and b) they are in the United States proper, and c) they only attend as spectators - are allowed to attend a "political party convention or convention-related event", "a partisan political rally, fundraising function, election party, meet-the-candidate event, or other political gathering as a spectator."

The Secretary of State is a political appointee, and a presidential cabinet member.

What you're citing above is guidelines for positions that while appointed positions, are not cabinet posts, and are ostensibly not supposed to be partisan in their activities(yeah right) and as such have to abide by the form, even if they ignore the function(Obama Admin anyone?)

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1246 on: August 27, 2020, 12:03:31 AM »
Quote
In 2012, six cabinet secretaries addressed the Democratic National Convention in Charlotte: Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius, Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar, Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack, Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric Shinseki, and Karen Mills, administrator of the U.S. Small Business Administration . . . which yes, was elevated to Cabinet-level in the Obama years.

I don't see the major problem here, but it should be open for debate and criticism.


DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1247 on: August 27, 2020, 09:26:09 AM »
The Secretary of State is a political appointee, and a presidential cabinet member.

What you're citing above is guidelines for positions that while appointed positions, are not cabinet posts, and are ostensibly not supposed to be partisan in their activities(yeah right) and as such have to abide by the form, even if they ignore the function(Obama Admin anyone?)
I actually cited two things: "Senate-confirmed Presidential appointees may not even attend a political party convention or convention-related event" which pretty specifically includes the secretary of state who is exactly that: a senate-confirmed presidential appointee.

The rest of the references had to do with lower level diplomats who are actually provided with more leeway than presidential appointees, and even that additional leeway precludes what Pompeo did.

The state department realizes this, which is why they made an argument that he technically was not present at the convention, and he was doing it on his personal time... which misses the point completely: "Presidential and political appointees ... are subject to significant restrictions on their political activity; they may not engage in any partisan political activity in concert with a partisan campaign, political party, or partisan political group, even on personal time and outside of the federal workplace."
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 09:41:05 AM by DonaldD »

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1248 on: August 27, 2020, 09:44:39 AM »
Quote
In 2012, six cabinet secretaries addressed the Democratic National Convention in Charlotte: Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius, Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar, Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack, Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric Shinseki, and Karen Mills, administrator of the U.S. Small Business Administration . . . which yes, was elevated to Cabinet-level in the Obama years.

I don't see the major problem here, but it should be open for debate and criticism.
Those aren't state department diplomats or staffers, so the legal restrictions on state department employees probably don't apply to them.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1249 on: August 27, 2020, 09:53:56 AM »
What you're citing above is guidelines for positions that while appointed positions, are not cabinet posts
Further to this: the state department legal memo was written specifically to inform all state department employees.  It is inconceivable that those writing the legal opinion were unaware that the secretary of state is a cabinet level post, so the wording that "Senate-confirmed Presidential appointees may not even attend a political party convention or convention-related event" pretty clearly includes the secretary of state.  Otherwise, the wording would have included a disclaimer explicitly for the secretary of state or for cabinet level positions.

As further evidence: the state department in defending Pompeo's move did not argue that his position in the cabinet was his get out of jail free card.