Author Topic: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:  (Read 109002 times)

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1600 on: September 24, 2020, 04:14:07 PM »
Y-22,

This:

“(Trump): We're counting on the federal court system to make it so that we can actually have an evening where we know who wins, OK,” Trump said during an event in  Fayetteville, North Carolina on Saturday. "Not where the votes are going to be counted a week later, two weeks later."

Does not equal this:

“(Donald)... Trump's statements suggesting that votes not counted by election night should be disregarded then.“

You should exercise caution when Donald declines to go where you just did.

Nothing in Trump’s statement advocates “disregarding” legitimate votes, under any circumstances. That said; under what conditions, precisely, do you expect vote counting to continue weeks following election night?

Do you think presidential elections should be conducted in that manner, and if not, what is your objection to an appeal(s) lodged with the court(s) to end partisan vote manipulation? It is not like we lack experience with the “hanging chad“ nonsense of 2000, or whatever contemporary equivalents are concocted for the 2019 election.

The public interest is served through election result certainty, as constitutionally protected through the Electoral College. But for predictable efforts by the unscrupulous to muddy the waters, our founders would have acquiesced to direct democracy in election tabulation.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 04:20:01 PM by noel c. »

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1601 on: September 24, 2020, 04:23:54 PM »
And here's what he tweeted about Florida in 2018:

Quote
The Florida Election should be called in favor of Rick Scott and Ron DeSantis in that large numbers of new ballots showed up out of nowhere, and many ballots are missing or forged. An honest vote count is no longer possible—ballots massively infected. Must go with Election Night!

Or from July 31 this year:
Quote
You won’t know the election result for weeks, months, maybe years after. Maybe you’ll never know the election result, and that’s what I’m concerned with.

Just like his vote fraud propaganda, he repeats this trope in order to facilitate ignoring the actual votes cast when it comes time to count.




TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1602 on: September 24, 2020, 04:27:51 PM »
Quote
“Its great that people are so worried about mistakes in casting ballots, but don't mind at all when mistakes result in someone being removed from registration.“

I worry about both. What is your point?

“A vote suppressed is exactly as bad as a fraudulent vote. It results in a +1 or a -1.“

I agree, again; what is your point?

Excellent, glad to hear it! I guess I didn't pay attention when you railed about voters being incorrectly scrubbed from the registration rolls. Or when polling stations get eliminated. Or when felons in Florida are not being allowed back in to registration. Or when people are being forced to go in person to a polling station during a pandemic.

Can you not understand that without pre-emptive mail in ballots, some people who deserve to vote will not? That states like Texas that won't even allow you to request an absentee ballot without passing strict requirements are going to have a certain non-zero number of people stay home, and that number of people might well be greater than the number of fraudulent ballots that slip through the cracks?

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1603 on: September 24, 2020, 05:22:26 PM »
Donald,

“Just like his vote fraud propaganda, he repeats this trope in order to facilitate ignoring the actual votes cast when it comes time to count.”

“Actual votes” are “ignored“ when the clutter of after election vote tally reconstitution takes place. Article II, Section 1, Clauses 2 and 3 came into being to avert that nonsense. I see nothing in Trump’s comments that are inconsistent with constitutional norms.

Drake,

“Excellent, glad to hear it! I guess I didn't pay attention when you railed about voters being incorrectly scrubbed from the registration rolls.”

Frequent “scrubbing” of voter roles is fully appropriate in a society where the average American residency is ~9 years. I would advocate clearing the voter roles for every election cycle. It would clarify the individual‘s obligation to be proactive. If you show up at the poll, and are not listed, submit a “Provisional Same Day Ballot”.

“Or when polling stations get eliminated.“

Has that ever really been a problem for you? Find out where your new polling station is.

“Or when felons in Florida are not being allowed back in to registration.”

I am for disenfranchising felons. You got me.

“Or when people are being forced to go in person to a polling station during a pandemic.“

Red Herring. Nobody is “forcing” you to vote. I assume that what you really mean is that you do not know how to protect yourself from COVID infection, correct?

“Can you not understand that without pre-emptive mail in ballots, some people who deserve to vote will not?“

No, I can not. Clarify that assertion fir me.

“That states like Texas that won't even allow you to request an absentee ballot without passing strict requirements...”

What “strict requirements”?

“... are going to have a certain non-zero number of people stay home, and that number of people might well be greater than the number of fraudulent ballots that slip through the cracks?”

This is overly wordy, and doesn’t strike me as an effective argument.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1604 on: September 24, 2020, 05:33:14 PM »
Actual votes will be ignored if they refuse to count votes after voting day, or if ballots get tied up in litigation until mid December. 

But let's step back - you've now been provided with 3 examples of Trump calling for votes not counted on election day to be ignored or at best discounted.  You still "strenuously disagree" with these suggestions, right?

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1605 on: September 24, 2020, 05:53:19 PM »
Donald,

“Just like his vote fraud propaganda, he repeats this trope in order to facilitate ignoring the actual votes cast when it comes time to count.”

“Actual votes” are “ignored“ when the clutter of after election vote tally reconstitution takes place. Article II, Section 1, Clauses 2 and 3 came into being to avert that nonsense. I see nothing in Trump’s comments that are inconsistent with constitutional norms.

Drake,

“Excellent, glad to hear it! I guess I didn't pay attention when you railed about voters being incorrectly scrubbed from the registration rolls.”

Frequent “scrubbing” of voter roles is fully appropriate in a society where the average American residency is ~9 years. I would advocate clearing the voter roles for every election cycle. It would clarify the individual‘s obligation to be proactive. If you show up at the poll, and are not listed, submit a “Provisional Same Day Ballot”.

“Or when polling stations get eliminated.“

Has that ever really been a problem for you? Find out where your new polling station is.

“Or when felons in Florida are not being allowed back in to registration.”

I am for disenfranchising felons. You got me.

“Or when people are being forced to go in person to a polling station during a pandemic.“

Red Herring. Nobody is “forcing” you to vote. I assume that what you really mean is that you do not know how to protect yourself from COVID infection, correct?

“Can you not understand that without pre-emptive mail in ballots, some people who deserve to vote will not?“

No, I can not. Clarify that assertion fir me.

“That states like Texas that won't even allow you to request an absentee ballot without passing strict requirements...”

What “strict requirements”?

“... are going to have a certain non-zero number of people stay home, and that number of people might well be greater than the number of fraudulent ballots that slip through the cracks?”

This is overly wordy, and doesn’t strike me as an effective argument.

Okay, got it. No bar too high. The Texas strict requirement is that you have to basically prove you will be physically unable to get to a poll station. Eliminated polling stations might be the difference between being able to get there on your lunch break, have access on public transit, or any number of other factors that do not, in fact, matter to me personally.

Quote
In 2012, there was one polling place for every 4,000 residents. By 2018 that figure had dropped to one polling place per 7,700 residents. A 2019 paper by University of Houston political scientists found that after the county’s transition to vote centers, more voting locations were closed in Latinx neighborhoods than in non-Latinx neighborhoods, and that Latinx people had to travel farther to vote than non-Hispanic whites.

Some counties closed enough polling locations to violate Texas state law. Brazoria county, south of Houston, closed almost 60% of its polling locations between 2012 and 2018, causing it to fall below the statutory minimum, along with another county. In a statement, Brazoria county clerk Joyce Hudman said the closures were inadvertent, and that this would not happen again in 2020.

pre-emptive mail in ballots ensure the vote for people who didn't realize they had to apply for an absentee ballot, or found it challenging to meet witness requirements, or just forgot to ask for one in time.

I know your attitude is "fine, forget it, who needs them anyway!". Which is very much not a stance of someone who cares about vote suppression tactics.

And as far as protecting against covid, there is unfortunately no way to accomplish that standing in line next to a bunch of anti-maskers for hours. So it's not that "I don't know", its that that knowledge doesn't exist. And if I, or anyone else, decides it is not worth the risk - well we just had our votes suppressed.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1606 on: September 24, 2020, 06:05:15 PM »
Donald,

“Actual votes will be ignored if they refuse to count votes after voting day, or if ballots get tied up in litigation until mid December.”

That is where I thought you were going. “Actual votes” are nullified when manufactured votes are permitted. It is the litigation “tie up” which you are interested in protecting, more than votes. Your particular brand of litigation is what is at stake, otherwise you would be perfectly sanguine with Trump‘s allusion to the courts.

“But let's step back - you've now been provided with 3 examples of Trump calling for votes not counted on election day to be ignored or at best discounted.  You still "strenuously disagree" with these suggestions, right?”

Refresh my memory; what “three examples“ of legitimate “Election Day” votes are you talking about being “discounted”?

Drake,

“Okay, got it. No bar too high. The Texas strict requirement is that you have to basically prove you will be physically unable to get to a poll station.”

DD is openly discussing public violence as an assumed consequence of this election’s outcome. Is the Texas “proof of disability” requirement a bar too unreasonably high in light of the stakes? Where is your threshold for election result integrity?

“Eliminated polling stations might be the difference between being able to get there on your lunch break, have access on public transit, or any number of other factors that do not, in fact, matter to me personally.”

In other words; “No bar too low”?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 06:17:37 PM by noel c. »

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1607 on: September 24, 2020, 06:18:42 PM »
Quote
“Eliminated polling stations might be the difference between being able to get there on your lunch break, have access on public transit, or any number of other factors that do not, in fact, matter to me personally.”

In other words; “No bar too low”?

That's a bizarre one. Are you saying it is a good thing to make people walk 15 miles to their polling station?

I would in fact prefer for voting to be as convenient as most other things are in the average person's daily life.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1608 on: September 24, 2020, 06:25:28 PM »
Drake,

“That's a bizarre one. Are you saying it is a good thing to make people walk 15 miles to their polling station?”

That is a nice crunchy straw-man there Drake. Okay, I’ll bite, where do you live?

“I would in fact prefer for voting to be as convenient as most other things are in the average person's daily life.“

Convenient yes, effortless no. Convenience does not trump vote result legitimacy.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 06:34:31 PM by noel c. »

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1609 on: September 24, 2020, 09:28:24 PM »
Democrats seem to be having military ballot handling problems... again. :

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/24/916633925/feds-in-unusual-statement-announce-theyre-investigating-discarded-pa-ballots

These ballots were supposed to remain unopened until no earlier than 7 a.m. on Election Day. Instead they were opened, and trashed.

Opening a military or overseas ballot, or an absentee or mail-in ballot for that matter, violates the controlling statutes, and is contrary to Pennsylvania Department of State guidance. In 2016 Trump defeated Hillary by only 1.2% in Luzerne County. 

This sounds echos of Democratic antipathy to military voters when Gore got gored 20 years ago. What possible justification could any conservative point to as a basis for fearing election fraud, right?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 09:41:18 PM by noel c. »

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1610 on: September 24, 2020, 11:48:58 PM »
Drake,

I missed this comment from you somehow. :

“And as far as protecting against covid, there is unfortunately no way to accomplish that standing in line next to a bunch of anti-maskers for hours. So it's not that "I don't know", its that that knowledge doesn't exist. And if I, or anyone else, decides it is not worth the risk - well we just had our votes suppressed.“

As a preface, wearing the typical masks that you seem to be prepared to trust your life to, are marginal in reducing dispersal of SARS-CoV-2 within an enclosed space, and useless in preventing inhalation of particles, sized 3-5 microns, like the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Every person in your polling place could be wearing a surgical mask, and you would be still be vulnerable to contracting any virus present in the air. You are innocently, and confidently, ignorant. In fairness, that is the fault of the CDC, and not your own. I do think that you can be faulted for conveniently believing “a bunch of anti-maskers... ” are better able fill your lungs with virus laced aerosol “... for hours” while waiting in line at your polling place, than the same people who you stand with at the checkout line to buy groceries.

That is just elective stupidity.

If I explain to you, in detailed language with supporting illustrations and data sheets, how to spend your entire day in an active COVID-19 hospital ward, with virtually no chance of inhaling the virus, and little inconvenience, would your fears of voter suppression be suppressed?

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1611 on: September 25, 2020, 12:15:02 AM »
You'd be adorable if you weren't dangerously ignorant. Health care workers have become infected doing the best they can. Grocery lines are nowhere near as long as polling lines have typically been. And people can have groceries delivered. You might not know about curbside grocery pickup, or instacart, but I promise you that exists.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1612 on: September 25, 2020, 01:08:05 AM »
Drake,

“You'd be adorable if you weren't dangerously ignorant.”

We hardly know each other.

“Health care workers have become infected doing the best they can.”

The “best they can... ” what?

“Grocery lines are nowhere near as long as polling lines have typically been.”

Based upon your experience with COVID-19 transmission, how long do you need to be in a heavily trafficked enclosed space, lacking positive ventilation, to be exposed?

“And people can have groceries delivered.”

Do you have your groceries delivered?

“You might not know about curbside grocery pickup, or instacart, but I promise you that exists“.

Do you use that service either?

Here is my take on all the leftist whining; none of you people walk the talk.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 01:14:22 AM by noel c. »

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1613 on: September 25, 2020, 09:18:00 AM »
Democrats seem to be having military ballot handling problems... again. :

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/24/916633925/feds-in-unusual-statement-announce-theyre-investigating-discarded-pa-ballots

These ballots were supposed to remain unopened until no earlier than 7 a.m. on Election Day. Instead they were opened, and trashed.
How do you know it was Democrats?

Why is the justice department breaking policy and commenting on an ongoing investigation?

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1614 on: September 25, 2020, 11:07:51 AM »
Drake,

“You'd be adorable if you weren't dangerously ignorant.”

We hardly know each other.

“Health care workers have become infected doing the best they can.”

The “best they can... ” what?

“Grocery lines are nowhere near as long as polling lines have typically been.”

Based upon your experience with COVID-19 transmission, how long do you need to be in a heavily trafficked enclosed space, lacking positive ventilation, to be exposed?

“And people can have groceries delivered.”

Do you have your groceries delivered?

“You might not know about curbside grocery pickup, or instacart, but I promise you that exists“.

Do you use that service either?

Here is my take on all the leftist whining; none of you people walk the talk.

Actually, I do have my groceries delivered for the most part. That's not entirely new, but more so with covid.

Experience tells us that the length of time it takes to eat dinner is sufficient to transfer. I'm not sure if there is any study that tells us how many minutes it takes. Which is why I haven't been in a restaurant since March.

Health care workers using known best practices get infected, meaning that anyone can get infected no matter how careful.

None of which is truly material, since the question isn't whether I personally will choose not to vote, it is rather how many people will choose not to. My personal solution will be to sign up for early voting, and then drive by the place multiple times until I see that there is a short line. I have the luxury of a job where I can leave several times a day, or take time off if I wish.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1615 on: September 25, 2020, 01:05:38 PM »
Why did states mandate mail in ballots PRIOR to covid? Because the exercise of your most fundamental right as a citizen shouldn't be dependent on waiting in line for hours at some polling stations, paying for child care, getting time off from your multiple jobs, or getting a ride.

Those transitions to all mail in were phased in, and implemented over a period of years, not months.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1616 on: September 25, 2020, 06:04:20 PM »
Y-22,

“How do you know it was Democrats?”

I know that it was Democrats for the same reason that no Biden ballots were discarded. They have both motive, and an established history, for this behavior. Are you entertaining the possibility that Republicans did it?

“Why is the justice department breaking policy and commenting on an ongoing investigation?”

You must be referencing ex-Obama DOJ official Justin Levitt‘s complaint about the news release. Why do his statements matter to you?

The incident was politically motivated, and Trump, without question, had a political motivation for blowing the whistle. You cannot expect him to remain silent with the accusations of misrepresentation being leveled against him. Nor should Republican concerns about post-election ballot manufacturing be casually dismissed. I have zero doubt that given time, Democrats will find every vote they need to flip close District votes. It is a Party tradition that the Supreme Court has interrupted before, and will do again if necessary.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1617 on: September 25, 2020, 07:27:05 PM »
Drake,

“Actually, I do have my groceries delivered for the most part. That's not entirely new, but more so with covid.“

Do you do this to avoid COVID?

“Experience tells us that the length of time it takes to eat dinner is sufficient to transfer. I'm not sure if there is any study that tells us how many minutes it takes. Which is why I haven't been in a restaurant since March.”

It takes the same amount of time necessary to draw a breath. Do you want to know how to prevent transmission?

“Health care workers using known best practices get infected, meaning that anyone can get infected no matter how careful.“

Health care workers make mistakes. Do you know what the mistake that they made is?

“None of which is truly material, since the question isn't whether I personally will choose not to vote, it is rather how many people will choose not to. My personal solution will be to sign up for early voting, and then drive by the place multiple times until I see that there is a short line. I have the luxury of a job where I can leave several times a day, or take time off if I wish.”

Okay, so you are not a hypocrite. That is actually refreshing to read. Anybody serious about voting should not find the obstacles unduly severe, and I see no evidence that is the case.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1618 on: September 25, 2020, 08:47:35 PM »
Y-22,

“How do you know it was Democrats?”

I know that it was Democrats for the same reason that no Biden ballots were discarded. They have both motive, and an established history, for this behavior. Are you entertaining the possibility that Republicans did it?

9 ballots that were immediately found and the story leaked out through justice. For someone trying to futz with the election they sure did a poor job while giving the Trump campaign way more than 9 votes worth of ammunition. I don’t think there is enough evidence to know who perpetrated this or why.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1619 on: September 25, 2020, 08:51:01 PM »

“Why is the justice department breaking policy and commenting on an ongoing investigation?”

You must be referencing ex-Obama DOJ official Justin Levitt‘s complaint about the news release. Why do his statements matter to you?

The incident was politically motivated, and Trump, without question, had a political motivation for blowing the whistle. You cannot expect him to remain silent with the accusations of misrepresentation being leveled against him. Nor should Republican concerns about post-election ballot manufacturing be casually dismissed.

So it’s cool for Trump to use Justice for political purposes? If only the Obama justice department was as willing to talk about Trump as Clinton we may have avoided 4 years of a dumpster fire in the WH.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1620 on: September 25, 2020, 11:59:00 PM »
Y-22,

“9 ballots that were immediately found and the story leaked out through justice. For someone trying to futz with the election they sure did a poor job while giving the Trump campaign way more than 9 votes worth of ammunition. I don’t think there is enough evidence to know who perpetrated this or why.”

Well, who claimed democrats were particularly skillful in “futzing” with elections? All I said was that they do it. I want to avoid having this type of discussion after November 3rd, and hope you are right that “someone” gave the Trump campaign more than nine votes in exchange for this little stunt.

Under your theory, some idiot fingerprinted a pile of paper under a false flag expecting DOJ involvement. Is that more plausible than an incompetent Woke Vote poll worker bringing-in-the-vote?

“So it’s cool for Trump to use Justice for political purposes?”

Absolutely; if the Democrats need a shot over the bow to inculcate honesty in preparation for clean administration of the most sacrosanct process of our constitutional republic, then I am entirely “cool” with it. Are you cool with democratic efforts to rationalize post-election vote cultivation?

“If only the Obama justice department was as willing to talk about Trump as Clinton we may have avoided 4 years of a dumpster fire in the WH.”

Obama cannot even keep his whiny mouth shut now, and you are still going to need to prepare your marshmallow sticks.

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1621 on: September 26, 2020, 08:35:55 PM »
Quote
I know that it was Democrats for the same reason that no Biden ballots were discarded.

Well, that explains it.  You were lied to.  Taken as a fool.  Sold a bill of goods.  Just like for the last 3.75 years.  ;D

There were actually 2 Biden ballots in that batch.  Which means there were not exclusively chosen for who they were voting for.  You premise is faulty.

There are going to be some irregularities in this election.  There always are irregularities in elections.  But we trust that they will be kept minor, like this instance.

Don't fall for those who will make mountains out of molehills like this, no matter how well they fit in with your biases.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1622 on: September 27, 2020, 03:35:32 AM »
WS,

“There were actually 2 Biden ballots in that batch.  Which means there were not exclusively chosen for who they were voting for.  You premise is faulty.“

No, my premise is intact, and your information is wrong. Why do you think that the two resealed military ballots were for Biden?

The DOJ now knows who the culprit is, and Luzerne County Elections staff are blaming a “temporary contractor” for discarding the nine ballots, who they forthwith removed from service, and informed (him/her) not to return, What do you think the political affiliation of this temporary employee is?

As an aside, all poll workers are “temporary“.

“Of the nine ballots that were discarded and then recovered, 7 were cast for presidential candidate Donald Trump,’ the ‘revised statement’ read. ‘Two of the discarded ballots had been resealed inside their appropriate envelopes by Luzerne elections staff prior to recovery by the FBI and the contents of those 2 ballots are unknown.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/25/what-we-know-about-those-discarded-trump-ballots-pennsylvania/%3foutputType=amp
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 03:46:03 AM by noel c. »

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1623 on: September 27, 2020, 04:07:41 AM »
WS,

As a minor postscript; the unnamed “temporary” employee worked at the Luzerne County Registrar’s Office for four days before being caught. All of the dumpsters in the building have had their contents bagged, and removed by the FBI. The extent of the employee’s tampering is unknown.

If you think this is a molehill, try the stunt yourself.


DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1624 on: September 29, 2020, 05:42:27 PM »
Trump campaign communications director Tim Murtaugh:

Quote
Brad Parscale is a member of our family and we all love him. We are ready to support him and his family in any way possible. The disgusting, personal attacks from Democrats and disgruntled RINOs have gone too far, and they should be ashamed of themselves for what they've done to this man and his family.

Wow.  Just wow.

Trump's team is now using the mental illness of a former employee to attack Democrats, as well as Republicans who are insufficiently indoctrinated.  Just when you think the Trump admin can't go any lower... you realize that you already had that thought shattered only days earlier.  Tim Murtaugh's decision to attempt to weaponize this unfortunate man's mental breakdown is frankly disgusting. 

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1625 on: September 29, 2020, 06:33:20 PM »
...I am referencing both unsolicited ballots, and ballots generated through unsolicited mail-in ballot request forms, as in North Carolina. Both mail-in system features invite outright voter fraud, or voter intimidation. Our traditional system of casting the “secret ballot“ negates those possibilities, and for precisely those reasons.

Of course. The correct approach is to expand the criteria which make absentee ballots legal, which has been done. To my knowledge, I don't know any State that has denied broader absentee ballot qualifications. These ballots were deigned to make voting easier, but to follow security requirements. Mail-in ballots were designed only to generate numbers, without any idea whether the ballots were real.

From my inquiries, the only reason to make earlier Absentee Ballots harder to get, was to ensure the clerks were not overworked and able to process them in a timely manner. With today's mail-in ballots, it is impossible to verify anything, nor any chance at all to count them in a timely manner. This can only result in botched counts and new elections.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1626 on: September 29, 2020, 06:52:02 PM »
There's a reason why the electors of each state only meet in mid December, 5-6 weeks after election date. 

There is no rational argument to require having the result of the election known even within a week of election date.  Between early November and January 20 there is plenty of time to accurately ascertain the will of the voters, then go through the other mechanisms required by law.

NobleHunter

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1627 on: September 29, 2020, 08:51:15 PM »
For once that the US still uses it's pre-industrial legacy electoral system works in its favor. They don't really need to change their process if they take forever to count ballots.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1628 on: September 30, 2020, 07:54:21 AM »
Trump:
Quote
Proud boys, stand back and stand by.

This is freaking indefensible. I'm sure our Trump whisperers will try anyway  :(.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1629 on: September 30, 2020, 09:13:36 AM »
Quote
"I am urging my supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully, because that's what has to happen," Trump said on Tuesday night. "I am urging them to do it."

Quote
Proud boys, stand back and stand by.

I wonder if they will be wearing brown shirts.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1630 on: September 30, 2020, 11:10:41 AM »
Quote
"I am urging my supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully, because that's what has to happen," Trump said on Tuesday night. "I am urging them to do it."

Quote
Proud boys, stand back and stand by.

I wonder if they will be wearing brown shirts.

Oh, didn't you get the memo? They are the patriots, and the people demanding equality are the brown shirts.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1631 on: September 30, 2020, 11:24:29 AM »
Trump:
Quote
Proud boys, stand back and stand by.

This is freaking indefensible. I'm sure our Trump whisperers will try anyway  :(.

Proud boys are right wing, they're also idiots.

They're also not a racial supremacy group. They're led by a racial minority, and have also been shown to have racial minorities in their numbers in the past(they're rare, but they exist).

So they're something different from the context of what Biden was trying to include them in with.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1632 on: September 30, 2020, 12:32:31 PM »
Trump:
Quote
Proud boys, stand back and stand by.

This is freaking indefensible. I'm sure our Trump whisperers will try anyway  :(.

Proud boys are right wing, they're also idiots.

They're also not a racial supremacy group. They're led by a racial minority, and have also been shown to have racial minorities in their numbers in the past(they're rare, but they exist).

So they're something different from the context of what Biden was trying to include them in with.

I think you can be forgiven for not knowing what the members of that group ACTUALLY act like, as opposed to their official statements.

summary

Quote
Their disavowals of bigotry are belied by their actions: rank-and-file Proud Boys and leaders regularly spout white nationalist memes and maintain affiliations with known extremists. They are known for anti-Muslim and misogynistic rhetoric. Proud Boys have appeared alongside other hate groups at extremist gatherings like the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville. Indeed, former Proud Boys member Jason Kessler helped to organize the event, which brought together Klansmen, antisemites, Southern racists, and militias. Kessler was only “expelled” from the group after the violence and near-universal condemnation of the Charlottesville rally-goers.

Other hardcore members of the so-called "alt-right" have argued that the “western chauvinist” label is just a “PR c--- term” McInnes crafted to gain mainstream acceptance. “Let’s not bull*censored*,” Brian Brathovd, aka Caeralus Rex, told his co-hosts on the antisemitic The Daily Shoah — one of the most popular alt-right podcasts. If the Proud Boys “were pressed on the issue, I guarantee you that like 90% of them would tell you something along the lines of ‘Hitler was right. Gas the Jews.’”

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1633 on: September 30, 2020, 12:55:04 PM »
Regardless of their label, Trump directly told them to "stand by."

Do you feel good about having such people ready to jump at the President's word?  :o

In fact, deosn't this mean that Trump just deputized the Proud Boys??  ???

DJQuag

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1634 on: September 30, 2020, 03:19:03 PM »
Something something black lives matter something something equivalency.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1635 on: September 30, 2020, 04:10:36 PM »
Regardless of their label, Trump directly told them to "stand by."

Do you feel good about having such people ready to jump at the President's word?  :o

In fact, deosn't this mean that Trump just deputized the Proud Boys??  ???

Actually, Trump said he did not know who they were, but that they should "stand back and stand by." The response was for all to stay out of riots in general. He did know who AntiFa is, and why not jump all over Biden's response to that?

DJQuag

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1636 on: September 30, 2020, 04:15:02 PM »
He doesn't know who the Proud Boys are?

I mean if that's the route you're going down, best of luck. Of course, in that case I might ask why the President of the US has no knowledge of a right wing group tied to both support for him and...other things.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1637 on: September 30, 2020, 04:19:08 PM »
He doesn't know who the Proud Boys are?

I mean if that's the route you're going down, best of luck. Of course, in that case I might ask why the President of the US has no knowledge of a right wing group tied to both support for him and...other things.

Anybody who follows politics, let alone being in politics, should know who the Proud Boys are - especially if they are constantly yammering about Antifa. Of course, if you get all your information from Fox News Opinion programs, you wouldn't know about them.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1638 on: September 30, 2020, 05:02:15 PM »
..nybody who follows politics, let alone being in politics, should know who the Proud Boys are - especially if they are constantly yammering about Antifa. Of course, if you get all your information from Fox News Opinion programs, you wouldn't know about them.

Don't be ridiculous. AntiFa is all over the place and are bankrolled by some serious Democrat funders. No one's heard of the Proud Boys which is why they were elated to be named by Biden in the debate. Regardless, Trump has always denied support to any White Nationalist organizations, unlike the Democrats with their own pet attack dogs. It wasn't the Dems who abandoned the KKK, it was the GOP who used tax codes to squash them and get them to turn on each other. ("Sing a song of bigots, a pocketful of clowns. Four and twenty Klansmen, wearing hoods and gowns, When Congress started probing, the Klan began to sing, Now, wasn't that a tasty dish for Martin Luther King." - Mad Magazine circa 1960)

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1639 on: September 30, 2020, 05:15:00 PM »
Regardless of their label, Trump directly told them to "stand by."

Do you feel good about having such people ready to jump at the President's word?  :o

In fact, deosn't this mean that Trump just deputized the Proud Boys??  ???

Actually, Trump said he did not know who they were, but that they should "stand back and stand by." The response was for all to stay out of riots in general. He did know who AntiFa is, and why not jump all over Biden's response to that?

OK, so your defense of Trump is that he's an idiot, who tells people he has no idea who they are to "stand by?"  ;D

I mean, if someone asked him about NAMBLA and he said, "fine people, they support me, I love them," would you forgive him so readily when he said, "oh, I didn't know who they were?"  ::)

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1640 on: September 30, 2020, 05:42:11 PM »
...your defense of Trump is that he's an idiot, who tells people he has no idea who they are to "stand by?"

Don't lie by omission, he said for all groups to to "Stand back, and stand by." We know who AntiFa, BLM, and Occupy Wall Street are because of all the damage they've done, and the protection the Democrats have afforded them.

DJQuag

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1641 on: September 30, 2020, 05:45:18 PM »
...your defense of Trump is that he's an idiot, who tells people he has no idea who they are to "stand by?"

Don't lie by omission, he said for all groups to to "Stand back, and stand by." We know who AntiFa, BLM, and Occupy Wall Street are because of all the damage they've done, and the protection the Democrats have afforded them.

Occupy Wall Street. Hot damn, they really riled you up, didn't they? Considering you're bringing the name up a decade later.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1642 on: September 30, 2020, 05:52:46 PM »
I always find it odd that it is usually the same people who are not anti-fascist and who do not believe that black lives matter are also the ones who believe Wall Street should ideally be unfettered by regulation.

noel c.

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1643 on: October 02, 2020, 04:39:21 AM »
Donald,

“I always find it odd that it is usually the same people who are not anti-fascist and who do not believe that black lives matter are also the ones who believe Wall Street should ideally be unfettered by regulation.“

I find it interesting that people who do not understand what a “fascist“ actually is, and pretend that the only “black lives“ which matter are that minority not murdered by blacks, immediately understand the threat to social stability when Trump makes a glancing reference to “proud boys... standing by”. If this hornets nest gets kicked hard enough, we all have reason to be apprehensive about the future of our Republic.

The way to marginalize a wacko group like Antifa is through public disapproval as manifest through law enforcement, not same-in-kind retaliation, which, I might add, will leave a disproportionate number of leftist anarchists lying dead in the streets.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1644 on: October 02, 2020, 11:21:18 AM »
...your defense of Trump is that he's an idiot, who tells people he has no idea who they are to "stand by?"

Don't lie by omission, he said for all groups to to "Stand back, and stand by." We know who AntiFa, BLM, and Occupy Wall Street are because of all the damage they've done, and the protection the Democrats have afforded them.

There was no lie by omission. The rest of the context makes it even worse.

Trump:
Quote
Proud Boys -- stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. Somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem.


In what way is that saying "all groups" stand back and stand by. What it sounds like is proud boys stand back then get ready to do something about Antifa and the left.

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1645 on: October 02, 2020, 12:31:36 PM »
Given Trump's poor command of the English language, I'm hesitant to conclude that he actually understood what "stand by" meant in that context. He might have meant something more like "stand by the side of the road" than "stand by for action". A failure to clarify in the following days is more of a problem.

And the OGW line that he did disavow white supremacist groups because he nodded and said "sure" during the question?  ::)

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1646 on: October 02, 2020, 12:37:42 PM »
Occupy Wall Street. Hot damn, they really riled you up, didn't they? Considering you're bringing the name up a decade later.

Speaking of them, they were going to do a "siege on the White House" starting in the middle of September, then they changed the name of the gathering, before canceling it just days ahead of it happening.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1647 on: October 02, 2020, 02:54:32 PM »
...Occupy Wall Street. Hot damn, they really riled you up, didn't they? Considering you're bringing the name up a decade later.

They are still around. The same people who showed up in NYC showed up on the West Coast for the rioting. Bloomberg did one thing right. He raided the OWS encampment at Zuccotti Park in 2011 and broke it up. But suddenly we saw the same tents show up all over the country.

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1648 on: October 02, 2020, 05:24:47 PM »
...your defense of Trump is that he's an idiot, who tells people he has no idea who they are to "stand by?"

Don't lie by omission, he said for all groups to to "Stand back, and stand by." We know who AntiFa, BLM, and Occupy Wall Street are because of all the damage they've done, and the protection the Democrats have afforded them.

Stand by for what?  A sign from God?  Or a sign from Trump?  (Or am I being redundant to Trumpists? ;) )

"Stand by" means be ready to jump in and join the fight.  Just ask the Proud Boys, who already are selling T-shirts with the message on it.

So you think he was telling AntiFa to "stand by" and be ready to join the fight?  Even you don't believe that. :)

So he must have meant the groups they were talking about, right?  White supremacists.  Nazis.  Aryan Nation.  KKK.  And their ilk.  Those are the only groups he would reasonably call to "stand back and stand by."  Because no other groups would rush to his aid.

No lying by omission.  He said what he said to the people he said it to.  No matter how you try to twist his words into something acceptable.

Aris Katsaris

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1649 on: October 02, 2020, 08:01:40 PM »
I am for disenfranchising felons. You got me.

Possession of marijuana is a felony offense, right?

I mean you say "felons" and some people may be thinking that "felons" means murderers and rapists -- rather than guys who had weed on them.

12% of US adults smoke marijuana. So that's at least 12% of US adults that should be disenfranchised, according to you.

But actually no, 52% of US adults have tried marijuana at least once in their lives. So that's actually at least 52% of US adults that should ideally be disenfranchised. They did commit a felony offense, even if they never got caught for it, after all.

(of course, in reality you're only really in danger of being charged with the crime of possessing marijuana if you're non-white)