Author Topic: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:  (Read 123092 times)

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1800 on: October 13, 2020, 02:04:24 PM »
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I'm highly dubious of the 1.5 million dead claim on the "let it run" scenario at this stage. Too many instances of "community spread" where the person who spread it was never able to be identified, which says there are a legion of Covid19 cases out there which were never "confirmed cases" to work against that 2% mortality rate number, although that number is still slowly ticking downward as the current testing regime slowly whittles away on the initial 110 thousand deaths which happened in the first 2 million confirmed cases, as opposed to the 110 thousand deaths that have happened during the subsequent 5.7 million confirmed cases (yes, I know that still works out to just under 2%), but we're still having plenty of instances of the asymptomatic spreader going on, so the cohort of the Covid19 infected seems to be far larger than what the testing is finding even now.

The first number I found for Covid-19 death rate is around 0.6 %, which is much less than 2%.  However, that still means that if 80% of our 331 million people have to get infected, we can expect a bit over 1.5 million dead.

That would be about what we lose each year to the top 4 leading causes of death--heart disease, cancer, accidents and chronic lower respiratory disease--combined.

That would be more than the total number of American soldiers who have died in our wars.  All of our wars.

Yes, a vaccine would help get immunity without the large number of deaths.  But you have to keep the number of infections down until a vaccine is found, manufactured and distributed.  Which means to continue what we're doing.

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If all of the trials fail, we're probably going to have to move into a "suck it up" mode anyway, we're simply not going to be able to lock things down sufficiently to properly eradicate Covid19 from our general population at this stage and the economic toll(with result impacts on mental health) is already getting to be plenty bad in its own right.

While the impact on mental health from economic hardship is not insignificant, I would ask you a simple question:  which of these would have the greater impact on your mental health?  Finding out your father lost his job and means of livelihood, or finding out your father died?  Losing your job and means of livelihood, or dying?  Which would you prefer for your father or yourself?  Which would you prefer for your family?  Which is worse?

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Older Generations had to contend with losing loved ones to pnemonia, typhus, measels, mumps, rubella, typhoid, smallpox, and polio... And even the spanish flu 100 years ago. It isn't ideal, but it is something that the people who live through it will find ways to cope with.

We all cope with what we cannot control.  This we can control, or at least control better, as other countries have shown.

And what do you think the older generations did when there was an outbreak of typhus, yellow fever, small pox, measles, or polio?  People who got it were immediately quarantined.  No questions, no "you don't have the right," none of this nonsense.  Read up on Typhoid Mary.  Public health trumps individual rights.

When there was an outbreak of these diseases, do you think the older generation said, "Oh, well, we'll just wait until herd immunity takes care of it?"  No, they quarantined everyone who had them.  They shut down businesses like swimming pools and movie theaters.  They did everything they could.

Covid-19 spreads from those who don't show, or have not yet shown, symptoms.  So just quarantining the sick won't work.  In that respect, this is worse than most of those diseases.  You don't think the older generation would have done everything that they could?

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1801 on: October 13, 2020, 08:08:55 PM »
In the "if he were anybody else, he would have resigned or been chased out of office by now" files... Trump again retweets a patently insane tweet: Obama and Biden had Seal Team 6 killed

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Oscar the Midnight Rider 1111
@The171111

Hiden Biden and Obama may have had Seal Team 6 killed! EXPLOSIVE: CIA Whistleblower Exposes Biden’s Alleged Role with the Deaths of Seal Team- Claims to have Documented Proof. RETWEET!!!

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1802 on: October 13, 2020, 08:42:30 PM »
Quelle surprise... First the commission on fraud, now the investigation on unmasking... Gosh, it's as if they are just mandating inquiries for political purposes without any expectation that what they were initially claiming had any validity...

John Bash, tasked with digging up dirt on the previous administration and linking them to illegal "unmasking" activities... ... sounds somehow... familiar.



TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1803 on: October 13, 2020, 10:50:51 PM »
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I'm highly dubious of the 1.5 million dead claim on the "let it run" scenario at this stage. Too many instances of "community spread" where the person who spread it was never able to be identified, which says there are a legion of Covid19 cases out there which were never "confirmed cases" to work against that 2% mortality rate number, although that number is still slowly ticking downward as the current testing regime slowly whittles away on the initial 110 thousand deaths which happened in the first 2 million confirmed cases, as opposed to the 110 thousand deaths that have happened during the subsequent 5.7 million confirmed cases (yes, I know that still works out to just under 2%), but we're still having plenty of instances of the asymptomatic spreader going on, so the cohort of the Covid19 infected seems to be far larger than what the testing is finding even now.

The first number I found for Covid-19 death rate is around 0.6 %, which is much less than 2%.  However, that still means that if 80% of our 331 million people have to get infected, we can expect a bit over 1.5 million dead.

That would be about what we lose each year to the top 4 leading causes of death--heart disease, cancer, accidents and chronic lower respiratory disease--combined.

That would be more than the total number of American soldiers who have died in our wars.  All of our wars.

Yes, a vaccine would help get immunity without the large number of deaths.  But you have to keep the number of infections down until a vaccine is found, manufactured and distributed.  Which means to continue what we're doing.

First issue: While the war dead number is a stark thing to place it in comparison to, you also need to keep those mortality numbers in the perspective of the populations of the time.

1790 census, US Population: 3,893,635. So 25,000 dead would be about 0.6% of the population, adding in the wounded would get you to 1.2%

The war of 1812 and Mexican-American wars had fewer casualties than the revolution, and a much larger population.

1860 census, US Population: 31,443,321
1870 census, US Population: 38,558,371
An estimated 655,000 dead for both sides of the Civil War. 2% of the population in 1860, or just under 1.7% of the 1870 population post-war. There were an additional 475,907 wounded troops between both sides. for nearly 3.6% of the 1860 population being physically affected by the combat during the Civil War.

For our modern population, that would be 6.6 million people dead, and an additional 5.28 million wounded. And that's a scenario where most those dead or wounded were able bodied and healthy men in the prime of their life prior to the event in question. Unlike Covid19 where most of the deaths are happening to people whose health wasn't great to start with, and is disproportionately impacting the elderly. Yes it is killing people "in the prime of the life" who were otherwise healthy, but they're statistical outliers... Kind of like how many Democratic politicians like to hand-wave about women who defend themselves from rapists through the use of a fire-arm. "There are always going to be exceptions"

World War 1 saw 116,516 men killed, and an additional 204,002 wounded, but by 1920 we reached a population of 106.5 million so that's a roughly 0.1% killed, and an additional 0.2% wounded.

World War 2 saw 405,399 men killed, and an additional 670,846 wounded, but in 1940 we had reach a population of 132.1 million, or about 0.3% of the population killed and an additional 0.5% wounded.
 
It should also be noted that the Spanish Flu outbreak in the United States is also believed to have been more deadly to Americans than World War 1, and possibly even World War 2:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#Around_the_globe
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In the U.S., about 28% of the population of 105 million became infected, and 500,000 to 850,000 died (0.48 to 0.81 percent of the population)

So even though we have more than 3 times the population as we did back then, we're not even close to the total number of deaths experienced with the Spanish Flu, and we've been dealing with Covid19 for longer than they had to deal with the Spanish Flu. And incidentally, Americans(and other nations) came through that on the heels of a World War which had already killed or disabled a large number of their young men. And the death rate being reported by the Wiki also seems to be in the same exact range as Covid19 at present, which strongly indicates we do have a historical and reasonably contemporary analog we can compare against in that case.
 
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If all of the trials fail, we're probably going to have to move into a "suck it up" mode anyway, we're simply not going to be able to lock things down sufficiently to properly eradicate Covid19 from our general population at this stage and the economic toll(with result impacts on mental health) is already getting to be plenty bad in its own right.

While the impact on mental health from economic hardship is not insignificant, I would ask you a simple question:  which of these would have the greater impact on your mental health?  Finding out your father lost his job and means of livelihood, or finding out your father died?  Losing your job and means of livelihood, or dying?  Which would you prefer for your father or yourself?  Which would you prefer for your family?  Which is worse?

What about the people who have fathers, husbands, or children kill themselves as a consequence of the mental health fallouts from the loss of their jobs and livelihoods? Or the people who are now finding themselves victims of domestic abuse because their significant other is coming apart mentally because their life has been destroyed by the Coid19 shutdowns? It might not kill them, but it's going to significantly damage their lives in a number of other ways. Plenty of statistics out there to back up the inconvenient fact that both domestic abuse and suicide increases as economic conditions worsen for people...

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Older Generations had to contend with losing loved ones to pnemonia, typhus, measels, mumps, rubella, typhoid, smallpox, and polio... And even the spanish flu 100 years ago. It isn't ideal, but it is something that the people who live through it will find ways to cope with.

We all cope with what we cannot control.  This we can control, or at least control better, as other countries have shown.

The only countries that have been effective at this are island nations. Iceland, New Zealand, and Taiwan, and they did it by placing early and hard quarantines on their national points of entry for everyone. That ship sailed for us back in January. The only other nations that have any degree of limited success had to go full-on security state on their own citizens.

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And what do you think the older generations did when there was an outbreak of typhus, yellow fever, small pox, measles, or polio?  People who got it were immediately quarantined.  No questions, no "you don't have the right," none of this nonsense.  Read up on Typhoid Mary.  Public health trumps individual rights.

And those "quarantines" weren't very effective in a number of cases, my great-grandparents had a brother of my great-grandfather come stay with them after the mine he worked at was shut down due to a cholera outbreak. Guess what? He brought it to them, 2 dead kids, and having their house burned down later.... (Well, at least they were paid for the house before they burned it down)

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When there was an outbreak of these diseases, do you think the older generation said, "Oh, well, we'll just wait until herd immunity takes care of it?"  No, they quarantined everyone who had them.  They shut down businesses like swimming pools and movie theaters.  They did everything they could.

Has anyone here advocated for people with Covid19 to NOT isolate themselves?

What you've had is people advocating against the near-total shutdowns and certain measures that have been imposed in mostly democrat-controlled parts of the country.

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Covid-19 spreads from those who don't show, or have not yet shown, symptoms.  So just quarantining the sick won't work.  In that respect, this is worse than most of those diseases.  You don't think the older generation would have done everything that they could?

And you think this is unique to Covid19?

The Spanish Flu shut down many american communities for 3 to 4 months, or in the case of places like Denver, it shut them down twice, once for 2.5 months, and again for not quite 4 months. And even then they weren't ever truly going for eradication, they generally reopened once the case load had dropped to a level that could be managed.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1804 on: October 13, 2020, 11:06:29 PM »
...Hiden Biden and Obama may have had Seal Team 6 killed! EXPLOSIVE: CIA Whistleblower Exposes Biden’s Alleged Role with the Deaths of Seal Team- Claims to have Documented Proof. RETWEET!!!

I've seen the full interview with the whistle blower several times now, and listened to the facts he reported, and his allegation of sources, tapes, videos, and documents, and the official meetings he was in. Far more credible detail than what Schiff's whistleblower had, and was never challenged. The Woke generation is supposed to believe with no proof, yet he comes with proof and the MSM is crickets.

What makes me wonder how truthful this video is, is that Hillary, Brennan, and Biden were supposed to be the major movers and shakers of this plot to insulate Iran from the bin Ladin conspiracy. I doubt any of them have the brains to concoct such a plot and keep it quiet. According to Allen, the whistle blower, the three amigos mde a deal with Iran to transport bin Ladin out of Tora Bora to a safe lockup in Iran with the top 100 ISIS leaders and their families.

According to the story - a shadow CIA group got him to Iran in exchange for the country not being allowed to fail. When Obama stepped into the picture, bin Ladin had been quietly moved to a prison complex in Pakistan. Against Brennan's wishes, Seal Team Six was allowed to go in after him, but the man they killed was a double. Panetta was the guy in charge who killed operation Rigor.

In order for Iran not to out the lies about bin Ladin screwing up the US in Afghanistan, Obama paid billions of dollars to them under cover of a Nuke treaty. According to the Whistle blower, The remains of the double was chopped up and tossed overboard to nullify any DNA tests.

To silence the operatives that raided the compound in Pakistan, Biden named the operators in Seal Team Six. The team immediately told their families to uncouple from all social media connecting them to the teams so they wouldn't also be targeted. Within the next few months the team was shot down by Stinger Missiles with serial numbers from the US stockpile.

I don't know what is true and what is nonsense, yet Seal Team Six was killed after Biden outed them. That part is confirmed. What is new is the reasons behind it all.

oldbrian

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1805 on: October 14, 2020, 12:40:00 PM »
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Within the next few months the team was shot down by Stinger Missiles with serial numbers from the US stockpile.

Do you have a source for this?  My understanding is that they were being dropped off as reinforcements and their chopper was shot down.  How did we get access to the wreckage to sift for evidence?

And when exactly did Biden 'out' the team?  I know it wasn't at the speech two days later when he referenced the work done by '...the intelligence community, the CIA, the SEALS...'

Aris Katsaris

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1806 on: October 14, 2020, 01:02:32 PM »
According to Allen, the whistle blower, the three amigos mde a deal with Iran to transport bin Ladin out of Tora Bora to a safe lockup in Iran with the top 100 ISIS leaders and their families.

a shadow CIA group got him to Iran in exchange for the country not being allowed to fail.

?? Um, why?

Iran's motivation would be the money US gave them, but what would US's motivation be in this deal? Why not have the 'shadow CIA group' just kill him, rather than transport him? Even if there was some trickery involved, why would Osama Bin Laden trust a Shia nation, and why would either Iran or the USA go through with the deal in good faith?

All this looks like the risks would highly outweigh any benefits. What's the point in a risky pretense that Bin Laden died if he didn't?

It feels like a standard conspiracy-attitude, people take a thing they don't like (the USA-Iran connection), and try to give it an evil secret explanation, which however doesn't make sense at all even if everyone involved was indeed diabolical. True conspiracies are much simpler, and they actually do make sense in the motivations involved.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1807 on: October 14, 2020, 01:43:56 PM »
I've seen the full interview with the whistle blower several times now, and listened to the facts he reported, and his allegation of sources, tapes, videos, and documents, and the official meetings he was in. Far more credible detail than what Schiff's whistleblower had, and was never challenged. The Woke generation is supposed to believe with no proof, yet he comes with proof and the MSM is crickets.

Waaaay too many moving parts for that to work and not leak like the Titanic after hitting the iceberg.

One guy isn't enough evidence, by a long shot.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1808 on: October 14, 2020, 01:48:10 PM »
I've seen the full interview with the whistle blower several times now, and listened to the facts he reported, and his allegation of sources, tapes, videos, and documents, and the official meetings he was in. Far more credible detail than what Schiff's whistleblower had, and was never challenged.

Then he should put out these tapes, videos, and documents. Because I'm not believing a crazy story like that without some proof. What you have right now is a guy who tells a story and not even a plausible one.

cherrypoptart

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1809 on: October 14, 2020, 05:37:13 PM »
I love a good conspiracy theory but I'm not ready to invest in this one yet. I'll need to look into the prospectus a little more first.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1810 on: October 14, 2020, 06:02:13 PM »
Exactly 3 weeks before the election and... Trump mocks seniors.

Who saw this coming?  Bleeding support from seniors already, the largest voting block in the nation, many of whom blame his ineptness handling the pandemic for putting their lives at risk, he now doubles down by using them as a punch line.

If he didn't need the presidency so much in order to keep himself out of bankruptcy and prosecutions, I would think at this point he was trying to throw the election.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1811 on: October 15, 2020, 11:50:14 AM »
I love a good conspiracy theory but I'm not ready to invest in this one yet. I'll need to look into the prospectus a little more first.

I used to say the same thing about conspiracy theories until the day I realized that far to many people don't view them as conspiracies or theories but reality.
I no longer find they funny and try not to give them any oxygen.

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1812 on: October 16, 2020, 10:54:21 AM »
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What about the people who have fathers, husbands, or children kill themselves as a consequence of the mental health fallouts from the loss of their jobs and livelihoods? Or the people who are now finding themselves victims of domestic abuse because their significant other is coming apart mentally because their life has been destroyed by the Coid19 shutdowns? It might not kill them, but it's going to significantly damage their lives in a number of other ways. Plenty of statistics out there to back up the inconvenient fact that both domestic abuse and suicide increases as economic conditions worsen for people...

It suddenly occurred to me this morning that, instead of trying to choose between killing people from COVID-19 or killing them because of mental health issues caused by economic shutdown, we should try to save as many people as we can.  Mental health and suicide have become major issues even before the pandemic and the resulting depression.  Why don't we increase funding for mental health initiatives that help people cope with the stresses?

This would have the added benefit of also helping those coping with the stresses of losing loved ones to COVID.

We keeping talking about this problem as if it were an either/or scenario.  Either we let people die of COVID, or we let people die from the mental health problems from fighting COVID.  Let's work on mitigating the ill effects of both instead.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1813 on: October 16, 2020, 11:08:05 AM »
Trump on QANON

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I know nothing about QAnon. I know very little. You told me, but what you tell me, doesn’t necessarily make it fact. I hate to say that. I know nothing about it. I do know they are very much against pedophilia. They fight it very hard. But I know nothing about it. If you’d like me to study the subject. I’ll tell you what I do know about. I know about Antifa, and I know about the radical left, and I know how violent they are and how vicious they are.

What a joke. Trump can only know about Antifa. Proud boys, QAnon, are all a mystery to him. Even after answering questions about QAnon over a month ago. He didn't take 5 minutes to learn they're nuts.

From a white house press briefing over a month ago.
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I don’t know much about the movement, other than I understand they like me very much, which I appreciate

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1814 on: October 16, 2020, 11:36:29 AM »
What a joke. Trump can only know about Antifa. Proud boys, QAnon, are all a mystery to him. Even after answering questions about QAnon over a month ago. He didn't take 5 minutes to learn they're nuts.

It's a little worse than that - his own intelligence agencies have labelled Qanon as a domestic terrorist threat.  Notwithstanding that was all over the interwebs and cable news, so there is exactly 0% chance he is not somewhat informed of them, his intelligence updates, those communications provided by his own intelligence services specifically for the purposes of preparing the administration for threats to the country, included information on Qanon.

How is it possible that he would not know about Qanon, given they were part of this communication? Hint - the answer is Trump ignores communications from his own intelligence services, even when he is not actively demonizing them.  This type of incompetency should be disqualifying in a president - at the very minimum, the president should be interested in protecting the country - yet here you are.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1815 on: October 16, 2020, 12:00:14 PM »
What a joke. Trump can only know about Antifa. Proud boys, QAnon, are all a mystery to him. Even after answering questions about QAnon over a month ago. He didn't take 5 minutes to learn they're nuts.

It's a little worse than that - his own intelligence agencies have labelled Qanon as a domestic terrorist threat.  Notwithstanding that was all over the interwebs and cable news, so there is exactly 0% chance he is not somewhat informed of them, his intelligence updates, those communications provided by his own intelligence services specifically for the purposes of preparing the administration for threats to the country, included information on Qanon.

How is it possible that he would not know about Qanon, given they were part of this communication? Hint - the answer is Trump ignores communications from his own intelligence services, even when he is not actively demonizing them.  This type of incompetency should be disqualifying in a president - at the very minimum, the president should be interested in protecting the country - yet here you are.

Trump never says what he says unless he says it. Trump knows everything about everything unless he dons't know it even then he most certainly knows more then anyone that has spent their lives studying.

Why we seem to be surprised when Trump makes such claims about what he knows or doesn't know is beyond me. 

TheDrake

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1816 on: October 16, 2020, 12:53:02 PM »
I'm personally willing to believe Trump whenever he talks about things he doesn't know, even if he did once know them. The boiling maelstrom that is his brain probably can't retain information for very long.

Let's recall that this is the man that talked about taking over airports in the Revolutionary War.

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1817 on: October 16, 2020, 02:23:36 PM »
I'm personally willing to believe Trump whenever he talks about things he doesn't know, even if he did once know them. The boiling maelstrom that is his brain probably can't retain information for very long.

Let's recall that this is the man that talked about taking over airports in the Revolutionary War.

I disagree. Trump never admits to not knowing something unless not knowing provides a excuse for saying something troubling or not doing something.
Its why trump never is held accountable for what he says as he never really says it

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1818 on: October 18, 2020, 06:20:30 PM »
Trump, via Bannon, holds the country for ransom: "Either elect me now, or I will run again in 2024!" /sarc

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Donald Trump Will Run Again in 2024 if He Loses to Joe Biden, Says Steve Bannon

"I'll make this prediction right now: If for any reason the election is stolen from, or in some sort of way Joe Biden is declared the winner, Trump will announce he's going to run for re-election in 2024," he told the newspaper. "You're not going to see the end of Donald Trump."

Of course, he will need to be sure to pay all his court fees before he votes in Florida, that is if he gets released in time.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1819 on: October 19, 2020, 12:56:34 PM »
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People are tired of Covid. I have these huge rallies. People are saying "whatever - just leave us alone." They're tired of it. People are tired of hearing Fauci and all these idiots.

...

Fauci is a disaster. If I listened to him, we'd have 500,000 deaths.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1820 on: October 19, 2020, 01:21:27 PM »
...Trump never admits to not knowing something unless not knowing provides a excuse for saying something troubling or not doing something.
Its why trump never is held accountable for what he says as he never really says it

Is that why the current debate tactic is to claim he has never disavowed White Supremacists, when they know he has continuously done that? As for QAnon, nobody knows them, except the Left. I wonder why? Could they be another Leftist partner group like AntiFa and BLM? I know nothing about them. I had to look up Proud Boys, to learn they disavow being White Supremacists. When I look up BLM, I find a Communist-activist organization. You should learn who you support and why. It may change your thinking process.

I find this tactic amusing. If there is anyone who feigns not knowing something that he should, look no farther than the Democrat ticket. Biden didn't know he was getting 10% from a Chinese company, and got paid $13 million from somewhere, but then again, he says he is running for the Senate, and has no clue what city he is speaking in.

No, Trump is still sharp as a tack, and outworks everyone around him. If he doesn't know something, you should assume the truth in that.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1821 on: October 19, 2020, 01:25:50 PM »
BTW: I looked up QAnon, and still do not know anything about them.

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QAnon is the umbrella term for a sprawling set of internet conspiracy theories that allege, falsely, that the world is run by a cabal of Satan-worshiping pedophiles who are plotting against Mr. Trump while operating a global child sex-trafficking ring.

QAnon followers believe that this clique includes top Democrats including Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and George Soros, as well as a number of entertainers and Hollywood celebrities like Oprah Winfrey, Tom Hanks, Ellen DeGeneres and religious figures including Pope Francis and the Dalai Lama. Many of them also believe that, in addition to molesting children, members of this group kill and eat their victims in order to extract a life-extending chemical from their blood.

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1822 on: October 19, 2020, 05:00:18 PM »
Your internet-fu is very weak, Lambert.

Try searching for "pizzagate."

Look at these images.  These people apparently very much believe what QAnon says.  What do you think they believe?

You may not know anything about them (although there seems to be quite a bit written about them, but that doesn't mean believers aren't out there and vehemently believe something. :)

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1823 on: October 19, 2020, 10:05:20 PM »
Your internet-fu is very weak, Lambert.

Try searching for "pizzagate."

Look at these images.  These people apparently very much believe what QAnon says.  What do you think they believe?

You may not know anything about them (although there seems to be quite a bit written about them, but that doesn't mean believers aren't out there and vehemently believe something. :)

Why look up non-players? They don't exist in Trump's world or in my world. Why even pretend they are a factor, like Savannah Guthrie did?

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1824 on: October 19, 2020, 10:10:31 PM »
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If you vote Biden... he'll listen to the scientists.

I really don't think he understands why this won't play well to other 66% of the population.

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1825 on: October 19, 2020, 11:18:12 PM »
Yes, it is the President's call to make. As Reagan did with Star Wars, the idea was to show the USSR what they could never accomplish and hasten the takeover by Russian business over Russian military. The picture could also be construed as a low-level fly-over by a stealthed drone or plane. Either way, we can do it and they can't. The other point is prestidigitation. What we show with one hand may cover something going on with the other hand. What else might we have up our sleeves?

Didn't Russia brag about a super-fast missile, and then Trump said we have one that is faster?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 11:20:27 PM by wmLambert »

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1826 on: October 20, 2020, 12:31:28 PM »
Trump apparently shocked - shocked I say - that Pennsylvania will count actual votes:

Quote
We got a ruling yesterday where they can count ballots after the election's over, what kind of a thing— so what does that mean, we're going to wait until after Nov. 3 and start announcing states?

In a state where Republicans blocked votes from being processed before election day, then tried to block votes from being counted after election day, you have to wonder... why? Why do they not want votes counted?

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1827 on: October 20, 2020, 02:25:58 PM »
Trump apparently shocked - shocked I say - that Pennsylvania will count actual votes:

Quote
We got a ruling yesterday where they can count ballots after the election's over, what kind of a thing— so what does that mean, we're going to wait until after Nov. 3 and start announcing states?

In a state where Republicans blocked votes from being processed before election day, then tried to block votes from being counted after election day, you have to wonder... why? Why do they not want votes counted?

Each state has election laws that cannot be gratuitously eliminated because the Democrats want easier vote-scamming abilities. Telling them to follow law and order seems like a good thing to me. To you, and the rioters and looters, I guess you rationalize anything.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1828 on: October 20, 2020, 02:49:19 PM »
Yes, laws put in place by - wait for it - Republicans.

Oh, and for a little context: During the 2018 Pennsylvania House of Representatives election, the Democrats won 55% of the vote, to the Republicans 44%.  So you would think that it must be the Dems' fault, right?  Except that garnering 55% of the votes was only enough to win 46% of the seats - whereas the Republicans 44% of the vote translated into 54% of the seats.

And the Republicans are using those state seats to disenfranchise voters.  Of course it's harder to do when you are that far in the minority, but they are giving it the old college try.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1829 on: October 20, 2020, 03:05:12 PM »
And for a little more context: the Democratic governor proposed allowing early votes to be sorted starting 2 weeks in advance of election day - but the Republican held legislature responded by agreeing to a 3 day period, but in 'return' demanded that drop boxes be banned.  Why would they think that improving the speed of processing of votes would need to be countered by making it more difficult for people to vote altogether?  I think we all know why, even if some of us cannot admit to the reason.

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Despite spending $1 million on new equipment to open envelopes and count mail-in ballots quicker, Lawrence Jr. said it'll still take days to count a quarter million ballots without action by lawmakers and Gov. Tom Wolf to allow for sorting before Nov. 3.

"People have to know we will not have results on election night if we can’t pre-canvass," Lawrence Jr. said, using the term for early counting. "Even with the equipment we have, it’s still a labor intensive process. It took us 17 days in the primary to count (105,000) mail-in ballots. We’ll have a better process in place, but we'll have many more ballots."

Wolf, a Democrat, and the Republican-controlled Legislature are stuck in a logjam over the issue. Wolf this summer asked for counties to be allowed to start sorting mail-in ballots 15 days before Nov. 3. Republicans in the General Assembly have countered three days, but included that offer in a bill that would ban drop boxes throughout the state.
 

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1830 on: October 20, 2020, 07:23:58 PM »
Trump apparently shocked - shocked I say - that Pennsylvania will count actual votes:

Quote
We got a ruling yesterday where they can count ballots after the election's over, what kind of a thing— so what does that mean, we're going to wait until after Nov. 3 and start announcing states?

In a state where Republicans blocked votes from being processed before election day, then tried to block votes from being counted after election day, you have to wonder... why? Why do they not want votes counted?

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

They don't want votes counted days before polls close so those tallies cannot be leaked so as to influence turnout on election day.

The votes they're trying to block from being counted after election day are ballots received after polls close. I'd be fine with ballots post marked on election day, but there is always the guy who drops his ballot in the right collection box at 10PM on election night(2 hours after polls closed and results are being shared) and can still get it postmarked before midnight.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1831 on: October 20, 2020, 07:28:53 PM »
Yes, laws put in place by - wait for it - Republicans.

Oh, and for a little context: During the 2018 Pennsylvania House of Representatives election, the Democrats won 55% of the vote, to the Republicans 44%.  So you would think that it must be the Dems' fault, right?  Except that garnering 55% of the votes was only enough to win 46% of the seats - whereas the Republicans 44% of the vote translated into 54% of the seats.

And the Republicans are using those state seats to disenfranchise voters.  Of course it's harder to do when you are that far in the minority, but they are giving it the old college try.

That can be a bit disingenuous too, you realize? votes cast != number of voters in a district. All you're arguing in this case is that the Democratic Districts had higher turnout than the Republican one. There are a number of ways that can be explained away. And complaining about Republicans gerrymandering for political purposes is rich given Maryland's former Democratic Governor admitted under oath to doing exactly that in the past, and the courts upheld it as a valid practice. You're just upset because things tilted in the Republicans favor the last time district borders were drawn in numerous states.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1832 on: October 20, 2020, 08:16:26 PM »
They don't want votes counted days before polls close ...
They weren't to be counted - they were going to be sorted.  Of course there is literally no evidence that the numbers would have been leaked anyway, so even that's a bit of a red herring.
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Wolf this summer asked for counties to be allowed to start sorting mail-in ballots 15 days before Nov. 3

As for Maryland... I expect you don't have children, TheDaemon, or did you teach them that "two wrongs make a right", too? If there was significant gerrymandering in Maryland, that would also be a problem. But what does the Maryland house of delegates look like?  Well, Democrats garnered 65.5% of the vote, as compared to 32.6% for the Republicans.  And the seat counts?  Dems got 99 to the Repubs 42, or 70% for Dems and 30% for Repubs.  It would be hard for those numbers to be much more representative.

What about the House elections?  Sure, there were 7 Dems to 1 Republican, but what was the spread?  The one Republican seat won actually had a lower margin of victory than all but one of the Democratic seats won - meaning more Democratic votes were 'wasted' winning those 6 seats than were wasted winning the Republican seat.  Sure, there was gerrymandering that gives rise to a more frequent 7th seat for Democrats - and that is a bad thing.  I am all for using an objective set of metrics to control demonstrably partisan-driven districts. But let's not pretend Maryland is on the same scale as Pennsylvania, where the congressional map was so skewed that the supreme court had to step in.  Now, even though the Dems got 55% of the vote, at least they don't have fewer seats than the Republicans do (each have 9).

However, there are exactly 10 states (20% of all states) where both the upper and lower state houses are held by the party that got fewer votes than did the opposition party.

In all 10 cases, those legislatures are held by Republicans.  You can "what about" all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that Republicans are currently the party of disenfranchising voters for the purposes of getting themselves elected.


wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1833 on: October 20, 2020, 08:28:53 PM »
...the Democratic governor proposed allowing early votes to be sorted starting 2 weeks in advance of election day - but the Republican held legislature responded by agreeing to a 3 day period, but in 'return' demanded that drop boxes be banned.  Why would they think that improving the speed of processing of votes would need to be countered by making it more difficult for people to vote altogether?  I think we all know why, even if some of us cannot admit to the reason.

The rules were established after years of experience at running the voting procedures. Having multiple party vote watchers has become an integral process, and many areas well-known for vote scamming have their own people registered as the other party in order to allow cheating. Having two-weeks to find holes in the chaperones from the other parties makes it too easy for them to cheat. The reason is the history of cheating, not making it hard for people to vote.


wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1834 on: October 20, 2020, 08:39:47 PM »
They don't want votes counted days before polls close ...
They weren't to be counted - they were going to be sorted.  Of course there is literally no evidence that the numbers would have been leaked anyway, so even that's a bit of a red herring.
Quote
Wolf this summer asked for counties to be allowed to start sorting mail-in ballots 15 days before Nov. 3

As for Maryland... I expect you don't have children, TheDaemon, or did you teach them that "two wrongs make a right", too? If there was significant gerrymandering in Maryland, that would also be a problem. But what does the Maryland house of delegates look like?  Well, Democrats garnered 65.5% of the vote, as compared to 32.6% for the Republicans.  And the seat counts?  Dems got 99 to the Repubs 42, or 70% for Dems and 30% for Repubs.  It would be hard for those numbers to be much more representative.

What about the House elections?  Sure, there were 7 Dems to 1 Republican, but what was the spread?  The one Republican seat won actually had a lower margin of victory than all but one of the Democratic seats won - meaning more Democratic votes were 'wasted' winning those 6 seats than were wasted winning the Republican seat.  Sure, there was gerrymandering that gives rise to a more frequent 7th seat for Democrats - and that is a bad thing.  I am all for using an objective set of metrics to control demonstrably partisan-driven districts. But let's not pretend Maryland is on the same scale as Pennsylvania, where the congressional map was so skewed that the supreme court had to step in.  Now, even though the Dems got 55% of the vote, at least they don't have fewer seats than the Republicans do (each have 9).

However, there are exactly 10 states (20% of all states) where both the upper and lower state houses are held by the party that got fewer votes than did the opposition party.

In all 10 cases, those legislatures are held by Republicans.  You can "what about" all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that Republicans are currently the party of disenfranchising voters for the purposes of getting themselves elected.

You do understand how Gerrymandering works don't you? It's not the total number of voters, it's how they are combined. If enough from one party is split up into multiple places that are largely the other party, that large base is thinned out over areas held by that party. Instead of one area having almost all of one party, that area will be spread out over areas the cheating party controls.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1835 on: October 20, 2020, 08:50:09 PM »
Oh William, you are adorable!

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1836 on: October 20, 2020, 09:23:25 PM »
Oh William, you are adorable!

And you are snarky. When a place is disenfranchised, it is because the area that is largely one party is split up into penny packets spread throughout other places. IOW, one area that may have 51% of one party is split up so the majority there becomes a minority elsewhere. Another area that was 51% becomes sliced up with other districts that were also a slim majority to become one area with a super majority. Instead of multiple 51% areas there is now one 90% area. The population stays the same but the representation is skewed. For four decades the Democrats ran this slicing and dicing to skew the areas they controlled. It took many years for any other party to gain enough strength to control the ability to Gerrymander, but doing so was more in taking it back to real than the Democrat skewing. Changing what the Democrats did is not the same kind of evil.

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1837 on: October 20, 2020, 09:37:46 PM »
In all 10 cases, those legislatures are held by Republicans.  You can "what about" all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that Republicans are currently the party of disenfranchising voters for the purposes of getting themselves elected.

So. About California and a few other Democratic strongholds with large populations of illegal immigrants that they want to have counted towards their population for the purpose of allocating seats in the House of Representatives even though those persons are unable to vote?

How does that impact voter enfranchisement in the rest of the country? By some estimates California is up anywhere from 2 to 3 house seats(and electoral votes) at present due to that. Who knows what that'll look like after the current enumeration concludes?

We're disenfranchising US Citizens in other states because Illegal immigrants foreign nationals need their voice to be heard in the United States Congress? Even though they can't vote anyway so there is no legal mechanism for that to happen in the first place?

wmLambert

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1838 on: October 20, 2020, 09:43:42 PM »
One message from Donald Trump that is resonating through his daily multiple rallies, is his rising poll numbers. He gives more credence to polls that were accurate in the past, rather than those bought and paid for by pro-Biden groups.

Another message he always points out are the huge crowds and enthusiasm, compared to the handful of people Biden attracts. He notes how the MSM keeps a tight focus on his face to minimize showing the huge numbers he drives. By the same token, they ignore showing the tiny turn-out that Biden gets.

The biggest new message is noting the hypocrisy from the MSM of ignoring the poor documentation or illegality of any pejorative charges against him, but publicizing it anyway - and creating a new paradigm so as not to show the Hunter laptop, or all the verification of it.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1839 on: October 20, 2020, 09:53:55 PM »
So. About California and a few other Democratic strongholds with large populations of illegal immigrants that they want to have counted towards their population for the purpose of allocating seats in the House of Representatives even though those persons are unable to vote?
What does the number of "illegal immigrants" have to do with anything as concerns the census? 

"counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed.”

I guess you are not an originalist...

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1840 on: October 20, 2020, 10:36:56 PM »
Quote
I am pleased to inform you that, for the sake of accuracy in reporting, I am considering posting my interview with Lesley Stahl of 60 Minutes, PRIOR TO AIRTIME! This will be done so that everybody can get a glimpse of what a FAKE and BIASED interview is all about...

<munches popcorn>

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1841 on: October 21, 2020, 07:38:43 AM »
Quote
We've gotta get the attorney general to act. He's gotta act. And he's gotta act fast.

This is major corruption and this has to be known about before the election.

He's openly calling for the Attorney General to use his office to interfere in the election.

oldbrian

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1842 on: October 21, 2020, 08:41:06 AM »
TheDeamon:
Quote
So. About California and a few other Democratic strongholds with large populations of illegal immigrants that they want to have counted towards their population for the purpose of allocating seats in the House of Representatives even though those persons are unable to vote?

The founding fathers were perfectly fine with people who didn't even count as people being counted for the population.  Maybe bring back the old 3/5 rule?
Originalism and Textualism For The Win!

Plus, we will finally get an accurate count of all the illegals

rightleft22

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1843 on: October 21, 2020, 09:42:27 AM »
Quote
We've gotta get the attorney general to act. He's gotta act. And he's gotta act fast.

This is major corruption and this has to be known about before the election.

He's openly calling for the Attorney General to use his office to interfere in the election.

Laws and norms don't apply to the law and order Il Duce

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1844 on: October 21, 2020, 12:14:40 PM »
TheDeamon:
Quote
So. About California and a few other Democratic strongholds with large populations of illegal immigrants that they want to have counted towards their population for the purpose of allocating seats in the House of Representatives even though those persons are unable to vote?

The founding fathers were perfectly fine with people who didn't even count as people being counted for the population.  Maybe bring back the old 3/5 rule?
Originalism and Textualism For The Win!

Plus, we will finally get an accurate count of all the illegals

I'd be more inclined to treat it as this:

Quote
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

Although obviously illegal immigrants aren't Indians so we'd need to amend things all the same.

But "three fifths of all other persons" could be considered relevant to this specific situation as well.

In any case, it does seem that the founding fathers did have a framework where people not part of the representative system ("Indians not taxed" and the slaves getting a 3/5ths count) didn't get to be fully attributed to the states in which they happened to live for the purpose of representation apportionments.

DonaldD

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1845 on: October 21, 2020, 12:44:51 PM »
Since when are refugees and immigrants considered to be not "free Persons" (i.e., slaves?)

Wayward Son

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1846 on: October 21, 2020, 12:57:23 PM »
Quote
You're just upset because things tilted in the Republicans favor the last time district borders were drawn in numerous states.

Deamon, enough with this mealy-mouthed horsesh*t.  >:(

Either defend gerrymandering and tell us how it is good and just and right to configure districts to minimize the influence of your opposition, or condemn gerrymandering as an un-American practice that disenfranchises voters and undermines democracy, like the Democrats have been arguing for the past few years.  But don't give us this, "well, your side does it too, so we've justified in doing it ourselves" crap.

Republicans and Conservatives love to say that they have integrity, morality, honesty and responsibility (unlike the "other guys").  Well, you show none of those things when you excuse your moral failings on the "other guys."  You just show you are lazy, irresponsible children who want to place the blame on anyone but themselves, just like your President.

For years now I've listen to you guys hypocritically blame your moral failings on Obama, Pelosi, or any Democrat you can find.  We says White Supremacists are dangerous, you scream "Antifa is worse!"  We say the Trump tax cut is increasing the deficit, you scream, "you never cared about the deficit!"  We point out that 17 women accused Trump of sexually harassing them, or worse, and you scream, "Biden was accused of rape once!"  As if any of those things justify the other.

I know you guys love to justify yourselves by blaming Democrats for the same behavior.  But stop lying to yourselves.  You don't justify an action by saying the Democrats do the same.  You only show you don't have the courage to admit to yourself that you love to do that thing.  If you don't like something, discuss ways to stop it or fix it.  If you do like something, defend it.  But blaming it on your adversaries?  That just shows you can't defend or justify it, but don't want to give it up.

Stop being wusses.  >:(

TheDeamon

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1847 on: October 21, 2020, 01:40:03 PM »
Quote
You're just upset because things tilted in the Republicans favor the last time district borders were drawn in numerous states.

Deamon, enough with this mealy-mouthed horsesh*t.  >:(

Either defend gerrymandering and tell us how it is good and just and right to configure districts to minimize the influence of your opposition, or condemn gerrymandering as an un-American practice that disenfranchises voters and undermines democracy, like the Democrats have been arguing for the past few years.  But don't give us this, "well, your side does it too, so we've justified in doing it ourselves" crap.

It's anything but "unAmerican" as it didn't exist until we developed it, and we've been doing it since about 1812. So gerrymandering is as American as Apple Pie.

That doesn't necessarily make it a good thing, but it is something we've had going on for over 200 years now, and it hasn't destroyed our democracy yet. As such, I don't view it as an existential crises.

It's detestable, and it is creating some political effects that are very undesirable, but the adjectives being used in association with it really need some work.

Quote
Republicans and Conservatives love to say that they have integrity, morality, honesty and responsibility (unlike the "other guys").  Well, you show none of those things when you excuse your moral failings on the "other guys."  You just show you are lazy, irresponsible children who want to place the blame on anyone but themselves, just like your President.

The "other thing" you're ignoring as you speak out of both side of your mouth on this is that Gerrymandering is not always black and white.

Some districts were gerrymandered explicitly to create an "ethnic" district for representation purposes, something SCotUS has even upheld IIRC. I think that's actually something that works counter to integration, but it is what it is...

There also are the instances(like in Utah's last round of redistricting) where the Democrats were the ones that requested the boundaries of certain districts be drawn a certain way so that rather than having 2 or 3 competitive districts for both parties, the Democrats could have 1 "Safe district" in Utah.

So was that compromise (which served the partisan interests of both parties in that case) wrong in your book or is it acceptable?

But I can appreciate the rage at my cheeky and sarcastic initial response to the matter.

yossarian22c

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1848 on: October 21, 2020, 02:04:55 PM »
It's anything but "unAmerican" as it didn't exist until we developed it, and we've been doing it since about 1812. So gerrymandering is as American as Apple Pie.

That doesn't necessarily make it a good thing, but it is something we've had going on for over 200 years now, and it hasn't destroyed our democracy yet. As such, I don't view it as an existential crises.

It's detestable, and it is creating some political effects that are very undesirable, but the adjectives being used in association with it really need some work.

Gerrymandering in the big data digital age is a different beast. Where before a party could get a small edge by drawing the lines. They can now get large advantages. NC in a state that basically went 50/50 on the house popular vote in each election was represented by 10 republicans and 3 democrats for a decade. If democrats were allowed to redraw the lines with as much bias and the same election were held the map would have flipped to 9 democrats and 4 republicans. That a level of advantage wasn't achievable before computers could easily optimize the map lines to give the largest possible advantage to one party.

The SC has given states the greenlight for political gerrymandering. If democrats take back some swing state houses and redraw the lines to benefit themselves to the maximum possible extent the Republicans can say goodbye to retaking the house anytime soon. I don't see that as a good thing. Computer algorithms and big data make the gerrymandering process too efficient for a democracy to function effectively.

Fenring

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Re: A Message from the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump:
« Reply #1849 on: October 21, 2020, 02:07:04 PM »
I know you guys love to justify yourselves by blaming Democrats for the same behavior.  But stop lying to yourselves.  You don't justify an action by saying the Democrats do the same.  You only show you don't have the courage to admit to yourself that you love to do that thing.  If you don't like something, discuss ways to stop it or fix it.  If you do like something, defend it.  But blaming it on your adversaries?  That just shows you can't defend or justify it, but don't want to give it up.

Stop being wusses.  >:(

In fairness to both sides, the real-world reality cannot be reduced to merely "condemn bad things and endorse good things." I mean, yes, do that; but that is not an adequate description of the real situation. One thing the left's worldview correctly addresses is that nothing happens in a vacuum, and that environmental factors not only weigh heavily into both action and interpretation, but in fact set the stage for which options even appear to be actionable and interpretable. It's well and good to find it annoying when someone points at your guy after you point at theirs. I can see that. However there is actually a strong element of truth in the indirect conclusion from that kind of whataboutism, which is that if the general environment is strongly pushing toward certain behaviors and outcomes, it really is off-base to point a finger at one instance of it in outrage and expect everyone to jump on board. It really does matter if your guy is doing it too; that creates scandal which makes everyone on the playing field see it as more legitimate. I suspect that people hate hypocrisy much more than actual criminality, in practice. Even being high-minded, you'll still be pissed either way when the other side does it, sure. But the only way to the other side to give a crap when their guy does it is for you to begin by giving a crap when your guy does it. It *will never* work the other way around, where magically your political opponents will tackle their own teammate for a misplay and gratify your outrage. You can just keep on dreaming with that one.

Start any clean-up job at home. Say what you want about him, Jordan Peterson has a very good piece of advice for what to do to begin to get your life in order: go clean your room. Not your neighbor's room, or his yard, or his behavior; just clean your own room. When that is in order you can clean the rest of your house. When your house is clean you can offer to help your neighbor with his. None of this works if you think it's really his house that's the problem, yours doesn't need cleaning, and anyhow once he stops letting leaves pile up on his yard yours will probably end up ok too as a result. It doesn't work like that. Whataboutism is a weak sauce version of what is actually a very real issue: people need to take care of their crap and not start by just accusing the other side. This merely reduces everything to a divide-and-conquer race to the bottom where the only winners are people you wouldn't like if you met them.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 02:10:04 PM by Fenring »